BrownTown shares space with Amoona, Chicago-based Palestinian student organizer, to further the conversation on Palestinian liberation, focusing on the student encampment movement in spring 2024 and how institutions have responded since. After 140+ college campuses put on demonstrations for Gaza solidarity, the war machine drudges on with the help of school administrators and other institutions suspending, evicting, and even firing students, professors, and employees over their support for Palestine and stance against genocide. As the student intifada slows during this time, what does the interconnected and transnational struggle for collective liberation look like going into 2025? Here's their take. Originally recorded December 9, 2024.
BrownTown shares space with Amoona, Chicago-based Palestinian student organizer, to further the conversation on Palestinian liberation, focusing on the student encampment movement in spring 2024 and how institutions have responded since. After 140+ college campuses put on demonstrations for Gaza solidarity, the war machine drudges on with the help of school administrators and other institutions suspending, evicting, and even firing students, professors, and employees over their support for Palestine and stance against genocide. As the student intifada slows during this time, what does the interconnected and transnational struggle for collective liberation look like going into 2025? Here's their take. Originally recorded December 9, 2024.
GUESTS
Amoona is a Palestinian student organizer currently living and working in Chicago who is also very connected with abolitionist work across the state of Illinois. She extends shoutouts to Jisoor, Palestinian Youth Movement, NSJP, and PNAP!
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Mentioned Topics & More Info:
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CREDITS: Intro song from Rap Street Palestine (Ard Kan3an & ana Palestine) cypher; outro song HINDS HALL2 by Macklemore ft. Anees, MC Abdul, Amer Zahr. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles. Episode photo by unknown of DePaul University Egan statue during Pro-Palestinian, anti-genocide action.
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BrownTown shares space with Amoona, Chicago-based Palestinian student organizer, to further the conversation on Palestinian liberation, focusing on the student encampment movement in spring 2024 and how institutions have responded since. After 140+ college campuses put on demonstrations for Gaza solidarity, the war machine drudges on with the help of school administrators and other institutions suspending, evicting, and even firing students, professors, and employees over their support for Palestine and stance against genocide. As the student intifada slows during this time, what does the interconnected and transnational struggle for collective liberation look like going into 2025? Here's their take. Originally recorded December 9, 2024.
INTRO
Song from Rap Street Palestine (Ard Kan3an & ana Palestine) cypher
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:20.310] - David
I'd like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy David, coming to you from Harambe studios in Chicago, Illinois. It's fucking December. It's Monday night. It's kinda slow, but we're going to keep it light for you here. I'm always with my boy Caullen. Caullen, how are you doing today?
[00:01:36.730] - Caullen
I've had better days.
[00:01:37.990] - David
We're going to make a compilation of Caullen telling us how he's feeling every episode.
[00:01:44.150] - Caullen
I have had worst days.
[00:01:45.030] - David
I've had worse days.
[00:01:46.780] - Caullen
I'm doing okay. We are here. We are clear. We have not recorded in a minute.
[00:01:51.700] - David
A minute.
[00:01:51.790] - Caullen
So I'm kinda nervous on how I will be talking over the mic. But it's exciting. I think a lot has happened in the world, a lot is happening for us personally. Been thinking a lot of things, been digesting the current moment politically within the city. Personally with the homies, shoutout to The Hoodoisie, been brewing some cool stuff for 2025. That's been nice, sharing spaces of late. As usual, we're throwing down Palestinian liberation. Which is why this episode is here in this third installment. Before I continue, how are you doing?
[00:02:28.760] - David
At the beginning of the day I was very flustered, very emotional, feeling a little raw. But right now, when we're recording, I'm actually super chill. I'm glad that we had that little 15 minutes of just being able to just sit here for a moment. It was nice because I wasn't really touching my... It was just a good moment. I'm feeling really good at the start of our recording is what I'm trying to get at.
[00:02:49.450] - David
But all in all, very similar to you, Caullen... I think a lot of our listeners probably feel the same way- there's just so many things happening. Sometimes it feels like, Yo, we need a moment to step back and not see anything. Then you come back and a hundred other things have happened, so you're in a moment of catching up with shit, but also you don't really know all of Syria's history, but you know some shit's happening. You know what I'm saying? That's where I've been juggling, but I have been inspired by some of the conversations we've been having with family members since the election and/or other things that we'll digest today.
[00:03:27.000] - David
But as you were saying, this is our third installment of a series that has looked at the genocide in Gaza through multiple perspectives, and I think that's important. Right now, we're really hoping to look at states and institutions. I think we kinda sprinkled- like, when we saw shit popping off during some of our recordings, specifically, some of the Palestinian liberation about what we were seeing in Spring '24, and young people going off. Whether that would be at DePaul, your alma mater.
[00:03:58.590] - Caullen
Gang! I'm saying gang to the students, not DePaul as a university- just want to make sure that's clear.
[00:04:03.020] - David
Clarification. But really sitting with that and looking at collective resilience from anti-genocide protesters and professors. I think there's- I think that's important to uplift because these are also people who are putting their position, putting their privilege on the line, and that's what we really need to see when we talk about solidarity. So we'll really get into that.
[00:04:24.670] - Caullen
Say that.
[00:04:25.880] - David
And just the calling out of the institutions and the roles that they play. What I'm really hoping that we get into is, what does this call for divestment from the war machine actually mean? Like, divestment, divestment... Some motherfuckers can hear that term and be like, What? Divest from what? What does that even mean, to divest? You're an institution, what the fuck you talk about? Just teach my kids. You feel what I'm saying?
[00:04:49.910] - Caullen
For sure.
[00:04:51.550] - David
I think there's definitely a lot there. But anything else before we introduce our guest, Caullen?
[00:04:55.200] - Caullen
I just think, in that, I like the term "war machine" because it speaks to the interconnected system of institutions, of businesses, of capital, and how that works in America, specifically, but also just globally in all of this. And I think we'll unravel exactly what that call for divestment is and looks like, in a lot of different fights, you can say, but especially the BDS fight to boycott, divest, and give sanctions on Israel. So I think that's an important term to look at and unravel, and also think about it from an institutional perspective, so we know who and what we're fighting and why. And how interconnected they are into all these parts of our lives, as well as from the grassroots- especially the students grassroots and up, and how this is not a... It's an iteration of a long-standing history of young people being on the right side history, and maybe that's the folks we should listen to.
[00:05:45.230] - Caullen
And that being said, I'd love to introduce everybody: Amoona. Amoona is a Palestinian student organizer currently living and working in Chicago, who is also very interconnected with abolitionists work across the state of Illinois. How are you doing?
[00:06:00.680] - Amoona
I'm doing good. I was a little bit nervous, but now that I'm here, I'm like, Oh, I'm chilling. Yeah, I think I needed that time, too. But I'm doing good.
[00:06:08.530] - Caullen
Girl, I stay nervous, it's okay.
[00:06:09.790] - Amoona
No, for real. I'm like, Oh, I'm always nervous. I just be talking and talking. I'm like, Yeah, I don't know, I just hope these things go well. Or I'm coordinating an event or something and I'm like, Oh, my god, everything's on me. But I'm like, It's really not. It's community! That's what you have to make sure you're in it together.
[00:06:30.810] - Caullen
That's big facts! And you are here during finals week, is that right? Or around finals week, at least.
[00:06:37.700] - Amoona
Yeah. I feel like a lot of schools are closing up for, I guess, the remainder- we're going on break soon. But I always got time to talk about Palestine.
[00:06:48.120] - David
Yo, I love it. We appreciate you being here. And so getting into the nitty-grittyness, for those of you who are listening who are not familiar with our Palestinian Liberation episode, we definitely encourage you. We started this in December 2023 when- it's so interesting just even reflecting, we had Muhammad Sankari from USPCN talk to us about the history, the real history of October 7th and what that actually meant. And that's really, 75 years of displacement and resistance.
[00:07:17.530] - David
And then, unfortunately, the situation continues- if not, even gets worse. And so for our second part, we were able to have Rabbi Brant Rosen and convert Lesley Williams to really break down Zionism. What Jewish solidarity actually looks like, and what actual anti-Semitism is- I think that was really important. That was a really great episode. We encourage all of our listeners to really dive into those two before jumping to this. It makes a little bit more... We're going to skip through the history and stuff that's already been spoken of, so get yourself-
[00:07:50.410] - Caullen
Read the episode notes, y'all. Get the episode notes.
[00:07:51.900] - David
Get the episode notes. And even then, we just got to show them love, but Nesreen and Nadiah, post-DNC episode talking about Palestinian struggle during the DNC here. Kinda curious, where were you at during the March on DNC? What was your life like at that time?
[00:08:10.370] - Amoona
I actually was here, and I think it was a really interesting dynamic. I feel like for me personally, there was a lot of moments of peace policing. I don't know that I could... I noticed just in general, not with particular orgs. I'm not within those spaces directly, but I think as someone in the broader movement, I think it was just... I could see why, but in some instances, I don't know, it was just a bit disappointing. I think more could have been done, but it is what it is. I think definitely some things with more interactions, I noticed that people that interacted with delegates more... more interpersonally, those type of separate things I think escalated and got more attention on media. So I think that was nice, I think going straight to the source. And then I don't know if y'all remember when the Palestinian delegates were asking to speak- or the pro-Palestine.
[00:09:16.710] - David
When they sat in front of the UC?
[00:09:18.650] - Amoona
Yeah. And even that, I was like, They couldn't even do that. So it was just like, I don't know.... We'll get into that later. But the presidency, there's a lot of reasons that Trump is going to be in office again.
[00:09:36.510] - Caullen
You mean that Joy vibes and Dick Cheney didn't win Harris's presidency? Dick Cheney. That wasn't a foolproof plan?
[00:09:45.090] - David
Yo, it's crazy.
[00:09:46.280] - Caullen
Liz Cheney. I'm so sorry. Liz Cheney. Well, actually, he even endorsed her, too, so it's fair.
[00:09:50.640] - Amoona
It's fine.
[00:09:51.430] - David
But just for our listeners, and we're fast forwarding today- and so clearly, you just touched on it- we see the Democratics lose. And they lost in multiple areas: they lost the White House, they lost the Senate. Now we're looking at what we're making way for a Republican legislation, Supreme Court, and the return of Trump. I think these are all levels. This is not a Trump episode by any means, I think it's important to highlight that because a lot of people, I think, are using Trump as the perfect scapegoat again. What's the term that you hate? You said that there's a term-
[00:10:25.280] - Caullen
"Now more than ever!"
[00:10:26.360] - David
Now more than ever, bro. The shit that we're going to talk about, it's been happening during a Biden administration, during a Democratic-
[00:10:35.789] - Caullen
Obama.
[00:10:35.870] - David
party. You know what I'm saying? To bring us then, can you give us a little bit of your experience with what we saw happen in the world after October 7th as a student? And what were some of the things happening around you during that time and leading us to the present?
[00:10:55.990] - Amoona
Yeah! I feel like once it happened, there was a lot mixed emotions. For me, it was a bit weird because I was just in Palestine before it happened in the summer of 2023. It was a culmination of many things. And I was there with my family in the West Bank. And it was just weird coming back, I almost had this whiplash because I was like, damn, this is weird! This is happening so suddenly. But I don't think... Coming out of it, I think on college campuses, there was a lot of people like, what is happening? What is the Palestinian cause? How can we raise awareness? And I feel like that was a really large mechanism into restarting the student intifada movement. I know a couple SJP chapters in Chicagoland, they did tabling, get to know us, doing events and teach-ins and protests. And I feel like at that time, it was more low-key because I think everybody was in the thought process that, Oh, Israel is doing it again, this seems more temporary. And I feel like as time passed-
[00:12:22.520] - David
December, January, February.
[00:12:23.890] - Amoona
The temporality kinda ceased. And I think that continuum and the disappointment of it being under a "democratic" administration, and trying to debunk the narrative that like, oh, liberalism is good; I think over time grew as well. Which is why I think as temporality faded, that's when I think anger started to bubble up, I think, across the country. And across the globe, honestly.
[00:12:58.850] - David
Caullen, what are some of the things that you recall from springtime?
[00:13:04.050] - Caullen
Yeah, I think the first... When I'm thinking about the encampments, specifically, on college campuses in the States, Columbia University was the first one with Hind's Hall and things. I think before that escalated and culminated at Hind's Hall and police coming in and everything, I believe more popped up. I was just starting to see in news cycle and stuff more pop up across the country. And then finally, they came up in Chicago- or Chicagoland area. I think Northwestern was the first one in Chicagoland. And then we see UChicago, we see UIC, we see DePaul. gangangangang. If I'm not mistaken, I think DePaul was one of the last or the last one?
[00:13:38.780] - Amoona
I think it was the longest standing.
[00:13:39.490] - Caullen
It was the longest standing! Let's go!
[00:13:43.110] - Amoona
It was the longest standing.
[00:13:44.520] - David
You did't have SWAT called on you like the Columbia kids did. No, I'm just kidding.
[00:13:48.560] - Caullen
Is that a flex or something?
[00:13:50.140] - David
*laughing* I don't know.
[00:13:50.400] - Amoona
I will say, I think one of the most brutal campus invasions was the Art Institute. I think it was like, 15 minutes in- no, 15 is not the right quote, but it was very quickly that-
[00:14:05.200] - Caullen
Oh, yeah.
[00:14:06.140] - Amoona
CPD came? Yeah.
[00:14:07.680] - Caullen
It's interesting you mentioned that because we had some students at the Soapbox office from University of California Irvine, who came to Chicago for a program for the past couple of years. And they include us and the people they want to talk to, which is very humbling for us. So we chatted with them and I think I was on Twitter and I saw it. And then one of the lefty Chicago Politico that tweet back and forth, and he's like, I'm out here. And I'm like, alright, bet. So I went and met him for the first time in person. We were yelling at the cops, just being dumb. But it was minutes after they had just raided it, and I think there were some kerfuffles as far as how that encampments was set up.
[00:14:48.410] - David
And how SWAT was able to show up because it was a public park or whatever, so they were able to maneuver differently than when they show up on campuses. I think that's what all the jargon was.
[00:14:58.030] - Caullen
Well, I'm referring specifically to the students organizing and Palestinian folks are involved, not involved. It's neither here nor there, but that was super quick. Then, yeah, there was some stuff with how the city responded, it was interesting. Some of the older or more seasoned homies did visit some encampments across the city, which was kinda cool hearing back, and then talking to some students here and there. But I did go to DePaul's encampment one day when it was pretty escalatory with some pro-Israel- the four pro-Israel people with their big ass flags, chatting and stuff outside, being protected by the police, of course.
[00:15:31.180] - David
The ones who felt unsafe, though. No, they felt unsafe.
[00:15:32.930] - Caullen
They felt unsafe, for sure. So that was interesting, just cool to see it. Like, this is a place I went to school with, and they have tons of my money. But to see students come out and have this whole area- and I hadn't been to any of the other encampments, but being there was like, it's a small village. Everyone's making sure we got fed. I had the best fucking falafel I've ever had in my life. Heard more about the BDS movement on campus. I saw it when I was in school, but I wasn't involved and knew too much, so it was cool seeing the beauty of it and seeing folks really throw down. Folks in school, folks out of school, professors there, folks I knew from Chicago organizing.
[00:16:04.970] - Caullen
Then hear from students and folks that are involved in the SJP or Students for Justice in Palestine and the DePaul divestment group talk about how uniquely DePaul was situated. And to call out the dean and call out different people in power than DePaul. Because when I'm- in our organizing, normally it's alderman or the mayor or whatever, I'm like, Oh, they're talking about these other folks in power in the institution. So that was cool to see that firsthand at the alma mater, with a dear homie, so that was cool.
[00:16:34.120] - Caullen
And I think about that, and I think about our episode with Bill Ayers, the pre-DNC episode, and just what I, and I think we, more broadly, were brought up- at least David and I, we're the old heads in this conversation. But from what we've seen like, students and anti-war and anti-Vietnam War protests, and Black and white stuff back in the day. Then also trying not to romanticize that either. I understand that insurgent of activism and resistance and really simple reframing as far as we're not the radical ones. We're just saying, Hey, let's not kill thousands and thousands of children. Maybe that'd be a cool policy. That tradition didn't die, and that was cool to see in real-time for me.
[00:17:17.050] - David
It was cool looking back, I think... I'm grateful that we're somewhat out of that. I think there was certain moments for me, especially when you're watching the news, where you're just like, there's these young people. You, going to college, 18, 19, 20, you're a very young person. And they're out here putting their... And you just see the brutality of police. Again, a lot of the conversation, I'm like, Yo, they're beating the shit out of students. I'm like, Fam, this is a thing!
[00:17:49.400] - Caullen
They do this all the time.
[00:17:51.820] - David
What the history tells us is that students oftentimes, and whether that's wokeness, and then... This is not an episode about education and education leading to wokeness or whatever; but it's like, okay, just because you have a fucking conscience. But yeah, it's always good to remind people. For me, I look at my background, you look at Mexico. Mexico has had multiple very strong moments of student uprisings. The state coming in and literally murdering people, having 360 snipers on rooftops and just murdering people or abducting them... You know what I'm saying? These are all things that have happened, and I think we should always remember that. I think those that don't, often have to look at like, Well, what privilege do I have in order for me not to even have to know about any of this?
[00:18:37.420] - Caullen
Can you give some context to the snipers?
[00:18:40.560] - David
Well, for example, 1960s, there was a big movement within Mexico. What ended up happening is the state ordered 360 snipers to surround on the top, and they opened fire. I think they ended up killing over 300 people, hospitalizing hundreds more. That's one of those staple moments in Mexican history. But then you continue leading on. My first, was the 43 students who were kidnapped by the state in- I want to say 2012, 2013. And then six months later, their bodies were found completely, whatever whatever. I'm just thinking of, and hoping that our audience always recalls that these student uprisings didn't just start just because they're anti-war or they're one-issue voters or whatever the fuck people are labeling to y'all young people out here holding ground in encampments.
[00:19:41.960] - David
But again, we sit in history. And for me, reflecting back on our history right now. Police were very aggressive. And I think it's... You'd search Palestinian encampments 2023, 2024, and oftentimes it's police literally being brutal. I think to where we're going with the conversation, police arrested about 3,000 people between- the statistic I have is between April and May. I think that was the height of what you're talking about. I think when you were visiting, Caullen, you're talking about springtime. I'm curious, Amoona, where you were at during the springtime 2024 at the height of some of these arrests? Some of the way we're seeing police move. And then I do want us to start to talk about why police move and it's because institutions made decisions, institutions made calls in ways- both pro and con. But curious, Amoona, where were you at spring 2024?
[00:20:35.350] - Caullen
Or what did you hear in the ether? What the homies have said?
[00:20:38.970] - Amoona
Yeah, no, of course. I mean, obviously, I think there was a moment, I think within... I feel like right now, even a little bit, the student intifada is going through an impasse. But I think some people are so tired, but I think in the spring, there was just a lot of- I don't want to say ferocity, but just anger and frustration. I was able to go to a couple encampments in Chicago and be there on the ground. And I think seeing just the type of community that the encampments built is nothing like I've seen in any college campus setting either, ever. I think the ability to bring that many people together, bridge the boundary between people within the broader community and people in the collegiate space.
[00:21:37.560] - Amoona
I think there's a very big distinction, I think, particularly when you think of private institutions. So we can look at DePaul, Northwestern, UChicago, a lot of those institutions inherently have done harm to the neighborhoods they occupy: the private police forces and security, and utilizing those factors to the negative to harm the community on the basis of safety and protection. So I think it was really nice, the ability to see people being there for each other and protecting each other. Because I think a really good phrase that I heard was, "We are the encampment." We make it what it is. It's not a tent, nor the space you're occupying, but being able to be there with one another and engaging in that space, and that is what makes the encampment. Because the tent alone doesn't do anything.
[00:22:34.420] - Caullen
It's giving Fred Hampton.
[00:22:36.150] - Amoona
Oh my god, stop! I actually just went to the Fred Hampton's Memorial recently too, December 4th. But I think...
[00:22:47.020] - Caullen
Can you do our audience a favor and speak a little bit to the intifada and what that means, what today is, how this moment- this year's moment, I should say, with the students being another iteration of that long-standing history?
[00:23:05.230] - Amoona
Yeah, of course. Actually, today is the anniversary of the First Intifada. It was on December 9th, 1987. It lasted five years, nine months, and five days. It was a series of protests, acts of civil disobedience, and riots carried out by Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. This was a collective frustration of the repressive tactics that Israel was enforcing in the region. I believe, thinking of the timeline, this is pre-Oslo Accords. The Intifada happened, then the Oslo Accords, then the Second Intifada, everybody was pissed again. But basically this collective frustration, it was from 1967 to 1987, it was 20 years.
[00:23:52.720] - Amoona
And I feel like it's really large when we think of intifada. Intifada means uprising, rebellion, and the ability of standing up against occupation and injustice. And I think in the context of commemorating that, that this is today and we're recording this today, I think it's important to know the student intifada is not dead. I think a lot of students are still passionate. I think it's trying to navigate mechanisms under a post... I don't even want to say... I was like, it's stupid to say post-Trump era, but just post everything??
[00:24:31.220] - Caullen
Intra-trump era.
[00:24:32.390] - Amoona
Intra-trump.
[00:24:33.480] - Caullen
We're still in it.
[00:24:34.310] - Amoona
Introduction to us going into fascism? I don't know. I feel like just... Yeah, I don't know. It's just so crazy.
[00:24:46.950] - Caullen
I'm curious what- I mean, I guess we don't know yet because he hasn't gotten back in office. But I'm thinking about Trump's first term, 2016, 2017, and 2021, the folks who are in undergrad now experienced him when they were much younger. It was still a long- a while ago, so David and me, our lives were a little different, too, but also not that different.
[00:25:09.330] - David
I had just graduated.
[00:25:10.180] - Caullen
Yeah. I'm just thinking about that just in real-time as far as what that will look like with students, a student body. Especially Palestinian students, especially Middle Eastern students, especially students of conscience, I should say, who were throwing down for Palestine. And I think what I observed from the outskirts was, it being a door- not only to Palestine liberation, but what decolonization looks like and what a broader global internationalist left politics can look like for folks. Maybe I'm just projecting on what I've seen just with my peers.
[00:25:44.250] - Caullen
But all this to say, I'm curious if… I hope that some folks with the genocide under a Democratic-led American executive branch, and a tradition of Democratic presidents and administrations harboring genocide or harmful policies, folks have their eyes open a little bit. So when a Trump administration is actually here and comes, we, 1) have more training resources and power to push back, but also realize how we use that training resources and power under Democrats as well. And to reject how we see electoralism. And I hope that culminates in a way to more strongly reject electoralism as a system and to...
[00:26:37.510] - David
Caullen's hoping for a lot right now.
[00:26:39.660] - Caullen
I don't know if it's redefined, or realize that we are living under fascism now.
[00:26:45.630] - Amoona
Yes.
[00:26:46.240] - Caullen
Not to be naive to say that when Trump comes it's going to be better, we know it'll be worse, and we know Project 2025 says- we know who he is and what he can bring. But I think we'd be remiss of the opportunity to understand that this "nonprofit killer bill" is happening right now. The genocide is happening under Joey-Girlboss-vibes under Harris. It's like, these things are already happening. These are some of the most egregious examples of harmful, horrible policies that Democrats are currently, now as of recording, and have put into legislation for folks for the past several decades.
[00:27:22.940] - Caullen
And so, all this to say, the idea of fascism, and what this actually means, it's like, when I see school administrators call police on teenagers with tents on a quad that they pay for, and they beat them and take their tents away, it's like, Is that not fascism? Are we living under it? Project 2025, yeah, horrible. We should talk about it and resist, but also what's happening right now? How about literally right now? I'm just also curious to see what... Not to see, but to see, participate in, and to get new creative ideas on what the next six months will bring. But as far as how we collectively fight, not necessarily what they're up to. But, just raw thoughts.
[00:28:08.250] - David
Thank you, Amoona, for sharing the intifada information for all of our listeners, I think that's fucking dope. I think for me, one of the things I'm looking at is like, it is still existing, to your point. And I think during whatever statistic this came from- and please always peep our episode notes- according to BBC, 140 colleges put on demonstrations. I think that definitely ranges in terms of what that means. But from die-ins to encampments to just occupation and sit-ins as individuals, 140 different institutions, students from these institutions mobilized.
[00:28:43.360] - Caullen
Is that globally or just in the States?
[00:28:45.580] - David
I think that's just in the States. Even though we do know for a fact that we saw this grow to be a global demonstration, whether that's in the UK or in South America... I was very inspired. It was one of those moments where like, Man, I wish I was a student. Because when I was a student, I could have totally camped out somewhere for a week. I did that with my homie's crib. I could just do it here with my people? That would have been perfect timing. But again, just seeing from UC Berkeley to Columbia to the people here in Chicago, the different universities and different groups pop up, it was cool.
[00:29:23.540] - David
It's funny because the biggest thing I recall is come May, June you'd see a bunch student org social media accounts going off, going crazy. Especially in a moment where a lot of the media- like I remember I saw Fox and it was like, "UCLA has fallen to the woke" or some crazy shit. They had put encampments and stuff. I'm just like, I think it's always important for us to, when we're looking at media, when we're looking at the news, to dissect it for what it is. But the fact that encampments really made people feel... I don't know, worried, stressed? Were they really unsafe? I'm just so curious.
[00:30:08.760] - Caullen
Yeah, the weaponization of safety from the folks who are either wanting to align themselves with, or have privileges- astonishing. And it's part of the playbook. And that's how Israel was settled in the first place, that's how it's been rationalized over time, especially on October 7th. You know what I mean? So I feel like it is not... It is not surprising that's a narrative that's there. And that culminates all the way into school administrators wanting to comment on the anti-Semitism on campus. And like, anti-Semitism is real, it is not real by people saying, "Hey, let's not colonize an entire people, an entire land."
[00:30:49.830] - Caullen
When I first learned about BDS, there was some homies who were organizing when I was an undergrad, and I've known about the movement since then and known some big target companies to divest from. Obviously, after October 7th, and after folks were really starting to throw down and learn more about Palestine more broadly, BDS has had several wins, I would say. But I'm curious, is this being part of the university and college as some apparatus of trying to find money for school and investing in war- can you help illuminate for us and the audience why universities and colleges invest in Israel and the war industry more broadly in the first place?
[00:31:36.540] - Amoona
Yeah, for sure. I feel like the big thing- I think people are scared of numbers and finding out... I think the biggest thing, like the chants are like "disclose, divest". And then whatever you'll say, We will not stop. We will not rest. All of those fun things. But it really comes down to the university endowments and how they're directly invested in donors and how all these things are funneled through. And their boards of trustees- especially, I think it's definitely so much less clear at private institutions.
[00:32:14.510] - Amoona
I have some comrades up at UIUC, and I feel like their time organizing for Palestine, they have so much more of an opening because the demographic is primarily... Or they have the largest student population of Palestinian students, I think, in Chicago? Or something like that, I'm forgetting. But admin has to cater to that, and listening and hearing students out to a certain extent.
[00:32:43.700] - Caullen
Hmm, interesting. You don't have to say like, "fuck that", but also... I see what you're saying.
[00:32:46.720] - Amoona
No, no, no, no. Yeah, my bad, my bad. I didn't mean to... No, I'm not trying to give them any credit or anything.
[00:32:51.400] - Caullen
If you want to say, we should talk about it. We need to talk about it.
[00:32:53.280] - Amoona
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But obviously, these universities, they have millions and billions of dollars. But the catch here is they don't directly manage their money. So like, through all these different entities that they have, they invest money in areas like stocks, real estate, private equity. And funding through those entities, they're also able to fund other institutes and programs to help directly connect to Israel in a way, which I can get to in a minute.
[00:33:26.270] - Amoona
Some of the large companies that I wanted to highlight like: PPG, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics. They all partner- I know. They all partner with institutions and ultimately profit off of the current genocide in Gaza and probably other places, I don't have exact details. But with General Dynamics, particularly, one of the world's largest weapon manufacturers, number six right now, maybe? I don't know if it'll go up..
[00:33:52.470] - Caullen
Top five, where you at?
[00:33:52.470] - Amoona
I know, for real.
[00:33:53.220] - Caullen
I'm just kidding. I'm not sharing them all.
[00:33:55.330] - Amoona
No. And I think in the Chicago context, we can think about Chicago's Crown family has a $14 billion net worth. One of the largest or current shareholder, I think, of General Dynamics, so they have 10% of the company. And being deeply rooted in Chicago, a lot of Chicago institutions have that through their philanthropy network. So through that, with the Crown family, they gave a $2 million gift to the SAIC in 2017, $75 million in 2021, I think, for UofC's social work. And then at Northwestern, the Crown Family for Israel Center for Innovation is another one- and that was an undisclosed amount. So we don't even know how much they gave them, we just know that it exists. So ultimately, at the end of the day... I hope that was a good little stats for y'all. Hopefully it's a little more understandable now.
[00:34:54.690] - Amoona
But these universities purely invest because it's profitable for them. And I feel like at the end of the day, these institutions, a lot of them are businesses. They tokenize off of students and their agenda. I think, particularly tokenizing first-generation, low-income students and otherizing them in a larger context so they don't feel like they can mobilize or organize. And when that does happen, when there is pushback, that's when problems start. Because they want you to stay silent on what we're- "oh, what we're investing in, I don't understand why we need to divest from these institutions." Like, oh, if you're "inherently neutral", and at the end of the day, you're not because-
[00:35:38.610] - Caullen
Big air quotes.
[00:35:39.450] - Amoona
Yes, big air quotes around that. Investment is something you're directly funding and giving money to because you believe in that cause. So to say that, Oh, I believe in X, Y, Z cause- you're believing in the mutilation, death, and suffering of Palestinian people. Is yeah, my two cents.
[00:36:00.040] - Caullen
It's not good. It's not good at all. I am curious.... If these are, as you say, businesses, and I think we know that to be true. I'm not saying any of these folks are moving in good faith. And it is not ethical by the shortest view of imagination. But I would imagine they would say, "Hey, yeah, I know this is fucked up. However, war is a bet that always brings us in money. And we ultimately don't care about ethics and human rights, we care about making the bag so we can have the school last longer. If we don't invest in this company that makes us money or invest in this state that maybe is doing horrible things, but because we're betting on it through these markets or these global financial systems that make us money for the school, we have to hike up tuition a bunch, we need to find money other places. What are we supposed to do? Big shrug." I'm assuming they... And I have seen that in different words, in articles and stuff, and folks push back and give other examples and other ways they can make money and also be like, You're a shitty people, this is inhumane and terrible.
[00:37:17.470] - Caullen
I'm just curious for both of y'all, if that is the argument for them. It's like, We are a business and this makes sure the education can continue. What do you say to that? Other than you're terrible people and this is not ethical and you shouldn't fund genocide? But....
[00:37:33.560] - David
I mean, I don't know. What that immediately connects me with is, I remember I think Northwestern was able to get their school to be like, "Hey, you know what, y'all are right. We're going to take a look at this and we may divest." That happened, right?
[00:37:53.480] - Amoona
I think so.
[00:37:54.540] - Caullen
They gave lip service.
[00:37:54.540] - Amoona
But the vote got denied. But I think another thing, I don't know... I feel like, I think something we could also touch on is the act of concessions to a certain extent. Like, We'll listen to you surface level, but internally there's other things. I feel like a lot of schools also care about the imaging, like how they look on the outside. I think being even dubbed as a business is hurtful to the image they're trying to portray as like free hubs of expression and inquiry. I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense. Because you say, Oh, an institution is a business. But what does that really mean? Some of these universities, how many people do they funnel in to factor? If they have graduate schools, all of the positions that they have, I think it all goes into a broader system. Like, what can they profit off of and do? Yeah, that's kinda...
[00:39:00.860] - Caullen
To be fair, I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm not doing that. But I'm saying like, if that's the fiduciary reasoning on how they're like, This is how we fund the school. And what are other avenues to find this bag? I'm just curious, what now? What do you say to that? Because at some point, I think they are doing it just for money, and that means you don't have a conscience in a certain way. But if that's their reasoning, what the antithesis is to that reasoning; or it's like, you just figure out how to find another way because there always is. Or it's a direct response to that that is part of the strategy.
[00:39:52.940] - Caullen
I'm curious, too, inter-movement-wise, what folks were saying, and feeling, and talking about? And obviously, this student encampment movement was unique because of the moment, but the BDS movement on college campuses has been going on for a long time. This isn't anything new, just this new iteration of it, too. So I'm just curious within that type of organizing, what folks are feeling and thinking. And we know organizing always comes with conflict and nuance in these things. But with us being on the outside looking in, I'm just curious if you heard or anything as far as folks discussing what concessions were made? And folks maybe not being in the room, or how to talk to campus faculty and power brokers and things? Just what that looks like as far as trying to get, I don't want to say a win, it seems so binary, but trying to make some kind of progress and what that movement looks like?
[00:40:47.390] - Amoona
Yeah, I think my first thing... I think the first encampment that I was at- that I can remember, I don't know- I was like, There's so many going on. But at Northwestern I think- don't quote me- but I think after three days, the encampment, they "willingly" shut down because they got a meeting. And after that, online- I mean, the internet's a scary place, but there was so much discourse. Like, Oh, you guys just seceded to them. You didn't really try and push your movement, your initiative. And I feel like, I don't know, that discourse and that type of rhetoric, the same thing happened at Brown, I think.
[00:41:33.100] - Amoona
Or something about... I don't remember, particularly with Brown, because a little bit far removed from Chicago. But I have some folks I know at Brown, and at first they were super ecstatic, being able to get this vote on divestment. But I'm like, you guys didn't really win anything in that. And reentering, I think, in negotiations, I think at certain institutions was also really difficult. I think especially for the encampments that didn't get shut down, they were raided. Or they were violently opposed by administration. I think there's definitely a big distinction in that regard.
[00:42:15.350] - Amoona
I think some of the concessions that I can think of that were quite positive. There was a bunch of implementation of Scholar at Risk programs. So you can see this at Harvard, Yale. And I think two of them, particularly for Palestinians, and I think Gazan's, got instated at UChicago and Northwestern.
[00:42:39.460] - David
So what does that mean?
[00:42:40.390] - Amoona
Yeah, I was just going to say briefly before that- I can definitely explain what it is. But at Northwestern, I believe it was publicized afterwards. And they have a scholar from Gaza right now that's here visiting and is a visiting instructor, and they have two-year terms. And I think they get funded by the university. And then I know at UChicago, there was just a WBEZ article that got published, but their agreement didn't go public, and that was one of the agreements that they agreed upon, I think?
[00:43:20.220] - David
They agreed to not go public?
[00:43:21.810] - Amoona
Yeah. But they agreed to go public with it, but there's been a lot of pushback by, I guess students and the faculty to truly implement the program. I think those two contrasts, it's interesting to see how they stand on that same issue in both directly funding and still investing in the Zionist entity. But I think more broadly, the Scholar at Risk program, I think is super positive, and I think it allows and uplifts academic Palestinian scholars. But in another lens, a bit of nuance, I feel like sometimes it's like, Damn, you don't want to contribute to brain drain. I think especially in those regions. And I think especially in Gaza, contributing like, a lot of professors are teaching online and trying to maintain... A lot of students are losing their second year of education now, so it's really hard to figure that out.
[00:44:19.850] - Amoona
That aside, I think at Northwestern as well, from what I know, there's full ride scholarships now for Palestinian students? Something like that, question mark, indefinite? And then I wanted to talk about Columbia, but I don't know. I've been trying to finagle through their things because so much is happening at Columbia. Even today, there was a really large action, particularly with Barnard, their co-institution. And I think they closed the complete campus, and it just was insane.
[00:44:57.140] - Caullen
That was recently?
[00:44:58.000] - Amoona
Yes, that was today. That was today. Yeah. But yeah, it was like, a lot was happening. And their Instagram got deactivated, but that's another story- we could probably touch on that later. But I think the ability to withhold finances is a big one, too, like with donors like alumni. But I think also, I think in the sense of progress, I don't think it's a win, but having a big base that can mobilize. Because I feel like when you're just restricted to your campus, it's so much different than when you can interact and engage with your community and do stuff and organize together as a unit. Which I think some universities still need to work on- or university organizers. But yeah..
[00:45:44.750] - Caullen
That's for sure. I'm glad you mentioned events of even today with Barnard College and stuff. Because I was thinking about- we have talked a lot about the spring and what that was feeling like for us in this room as well as more broadly. But after that, we saw headlines and things and articles and stuff, and maybe even heard from folks who were in school in some capacity was a lot of- not just pushback, we saw that in the spring, plenty. But new rules and policies.
[00:46:14.670] - David
Executive bans on encampments. I'm like, what the fuck? Wait, executive bans on encampments? What the fuck is that?
[00:46:20.240] - Amoona
The repressive tactics are actually so large. A lot of institutions, I don't know if they had a big boardroom meeting and everybody was like, What are you going to do so I can do the same or do something similar?
[00:46:31.910] - David
I wouldn't be surprised.
[00:46:33.200] - Amoona
Honestly, I think a lot of institutions talked amongst themselves. A lot of new updates in tactics, administrative regulations were updated over the summer. Particularly, I think it's interesting they do it over the summer because then it's like students are not in classes. People are not caring about that in the summer. I think this summer, aside from the DNC, I think the movement, again, was at a little bit of a pause because everybody's in different places, there's things going on.
[00:47:07.390] - Amoona
But yeah, I think with these types of repression tactics, I feel like the biggest one, and one of the most inhumane ones that I've seen is the tens and... I don't want to say hundreds, but it might be over 100 now, evictions and suspension of pro-Palestine students. And it's everywhere, I can think of Swarthmore, Pomona, Cornell... It's almost like- I think it... Was at Swarthmore? I know that somebody got either suspended- I don't even know what the details are of that- but just for using a megaphone outside somewhere. And I was like, What are we entering into?
[00:47:55.110] - Amoona
And I think it goes back to that discussion we had earlier about like, we're already living in a fascist era and environment. How apathetic do you have to be evicting your own students, primarily students of color, primarily students on financial aid, primarily students that like, getting displaced from housing- they don't have a place to go to. Eviction is so cruel and harmful. And like, I get it, I feel like I shouldn't be surprised because these universities are able to have so much power to displace community members.
[00:48:35.187] - Caullen
Say that!
[00:48:35.250] - Amoona
Buy property, gentrify the area, so it's like the same thing. But when it's your own student, that's trying to be... And I think it all goes back to that point on tokenization. Ultimately, I think particularly students of color we're replaceable. An eviction is nothing to them because somebody else can take your place. And I think particularly low income students of color, it's like, "You're not paying anyway, so what's the point?" But I feel like our value is inherently or intrinsically less because of our circumstances.
[00:49:13.900] - Amoona
I don't know... And I think that, the lack of choice, I think, is another big thing. I'm talking to a couple of people like, a lot of my close friends are from California. And they would have loved to go to their in-state public schools, but it was so expensive even with being in-state. It's just insane. The lack of choice, I think, really makes you cognizant of your environment and taking advantage of what's at your disposal. But also, I feel like there's a fine line. We shouldn't be devising our morals to keep up an act just because of the institution we're at. I don't know. That was kinda off on a tangent, but...
[00:50:00.170] - Caullen
I love that. I think to your point, as far as low-income students of color particularly, it's like, yeah it exists for our cute diversity ads; but if your dad ain't bringing in money, you're not legacy, then we'll get somebody else to replace you.
[00:50:13.030] - Amoona
Exactly.
[00:50:13.690] - David
When UChicago started withholding diplomas, degrees, and they were doing that in the summer time. So I am curious, what are some of the things that you're hearing now that the states are doing? But I think UChicago withheld diplomas and motherfuckers like, No, y'all I can't do that. It was interesting to see the public discourse of that going back and forth. And at the same time, it's always just fucking like reading an Onion article. Watching the presidents of all of these institutions have to respond to the violence that is basically like, "We're here to protect everyone's free speech." You know what I'm saying?
[00:50:56.280] - Caullen
However....
[00:50:57.110] - David
Yo, dude. I'm thinking through all that. Again, not having been a student, I wasn't at any of the student encampments, but cheering from afar. And then seeing now how the institutions are moving, y'all talking about enforcing the ban encampments. Going as crazy as to ban masking as a thing of like, people who are hiding their identity. But those are like..
[00:51:26.452] - Caullen
COVID is still around, y'all!
[00:51:26.560] - Amoona
COVID is still around and killing Black and Brown people.
[00:51:29.690] - David
And yet who does that affect the most? It affects disabled Black and Brown folks, who now you're criminalizing for them protecting themselves. You mentioned student evictions, which we're seeing things that are recent. I'm curious if there's anything else that y'all been seeing in terms of what universities and institutions have been doing as a result of the springtime into the summer. And then you mentioned this semester has been over, so I'm curious, what maybe has been the biggest change from spring to fall for you?
[00:52:05.300] - Amoona
I feel like since we've gotten back, I think it's been a lot of hyper surveillance across the country, like over-policing. I think, particularly at private institutions. I guess before that- I did want to say, because I was looking at my little notes- I think aside from UChicago, UCLA, and Harvard also attempted to withhold degrees, and that was really big.
[00:52:33.005] - David
Oh shit, oh shit.
[00:52:33.500] - Amoona
I don't know, it's crazy. Like, y'all think y'all got some hella power. I don't know, it's just insane. Things that students worked so hard for was just so easily taken away because of... I don't even know why.
[00:52:50.940] - Caullen
Standing up against a literal genocide.
[00:52:53.020] - Amoona
Yeah. I don't even know. That aside, my bad, I just wanted to take a note to that. But I think in the sense of over-policing and hyper surveillance, I know I'm very familiar... Columbia, they were able to start site tracking on Wi-Fi. So figuring out what you're doing online, when you're connected to on campus stuff.
[00:53:21.440] - David
So like, There's 50 people who just connected to the Wi-Fi in the quad.
[00:53:24.780] - Amoona
Yeah. I guess the update of security systems, cameras and stuff, a lot of new installments. The other big one... oh, my god it's literally at the top of... Oh! I feel like a lot of institutions are now- particularly in Chicago- are coexisting and co-working with CPD. And I think that is a big one that creates fear in the community. Already, when you're in areas where you have, I guess, a vulnerable body, you think of students and then students living in community with people that are not a part of the college community. And putting that together, what is it for? I don't know. Who are you truly protecting?
[00:54:22.830] - Amoona
I think also- back to the Barnard thing today- it was interesting that they were posting on Twitter, NYPD, as they were shutting down and somebody bumped into one of the NYPD officers, and then they pushed them. Even though like... No, sorry, I'm saying this story wrong. The NYPD officer bumped into themselves and then they got mad, so then they pushed a student. And I'm like, what is the reasoning behind that violence? But I feel like those are the largest things I've noticed, and it also is during... Well, actions and things are happening, there's just a hyper amount of security in the vicinity. And then disciplinary action is very quick, sudden. And I think in the case scenario of things that happened during the Week of Rage, I don't know if y'all are familiar with that?
[00:55:23.710] - Caullen
I'm vaguely familiar, but please...
[00:55:25.470] - David
Enlighten our listeners.
[00:55:26.410] - Amoona
Yes! So the Week of Rage was an initiative- I don't want to say- it was co-signed with NSJP, which is National Students for Justice in Palestine- it might have been with Palestinian Youth Movement. I can't remember top of my head right now. I'm so sorry.
[00:55:43.140] - David
Shoutout to both.
[00:55:43.560] - Amoona
Yeah, shoutout to both. But there was a Week of Rage across campuses and it was allowing students to express their frustration with the anniversary of the one year of the genocide or... In one of my classes, actually, we've talked about normalizing- instead of saying October 7th- Al-Aqsa Flood. And I think that's very important, so I'm going to try to do that for the rest of the time we're out here.
[00:56:12.350] - Caullen
You said that earlier and I was like, ahh say that. So thank you for putting that out there.
[00:56:15.670] - Amoona
Of course! No, you're so good. But I feel like after that week- or during that week, there was so much not only surveillance, but repression after the fact. And the things that were like, fear-mongering and scare tactics- that even really happened during the encampment era. I think to feed students into the narrative like, Don't do this again because you will face consequences. Trying to deter the movement, I feel like, is the biggest thing when those things are happening, in my opinion.
[00:56:52.140] - David
No, for sure. I just immediately think about even the fact that they were able to prove that often times, like in protest, we will have agitators. Whether that's from the police department themselves and/or...
[00:57:08.780] - Amoona
Counter-protesters.
[00:57:09.500] - David
Counter-protesters who become insurgent and actually give reasons or enough "reasons" to the police for them to then get involved and use violence. Because like, oh, there's this one... Insert-shit-here, you know what I'm saying? That's what I'm thinking about now in terms of the state using all of these type of tactics to their disposal, in terms of diluting the energies. And to your point, Amoona, what you're naming in terms of creating fear among students- there's almost an emboldenment that happened in spring, but because of all the fucking pounding from the state of like, oh, you've seen this? We'll take your diploma. You've seen this? We'll kick you out of your dorm. You see this? We'll destroy your club. You know what I'm saying? And I'm fucking 19, I'm going to be like: All right, bro, I quit. Truce. I'm tapping for a moment, you know what I'm saying? I don't know, I'm just trying to position myself.
[00:58:05.790] - David
And then I really appreciate you naming the terms of these universities and what is their connection to the actual community around them. If we're talking about UChicago, that's just on the South Side of Chicago, which was already hyper-focused in terms of police surveillance for the people who live south of 53rd. I think that's just so tied, so relevant. And it's unfortunate because that's how things have been moving since. And we're thinking about now fall, one year after... Could you please repeat what you said, real quick?
[00:58:40.930] - Amoona
Oh, Al-Aqsa Flood?
[00:58:42.120] - David
Al-Aqsa Flood?
[00:58:42.920] - Amoona
Yes. That was the name of the operation.
[00:58:48.110] - David
Heard, heard, heard. But, Caullen, I saw your wheels tinkering.
[00:58:50.900] - Caullen
Yeah, this is a little bit of a gear shift, too. I'm just curious, shift the gears from what the state has done, and what these schools have done, what the corporate-backed media has done for the most part, what we've seen the past year or so or more... And what glimmers of hope and resistance and power that we have felt and then we're holding onto going into the new year. I remember when folks were graduating in May and in June, a lot of folks were coming off the stage with Palestinian flags or-
[00:59:27.770] - David
Ripping up their diplomas.
[00:59:28.970] - Caullen
Their diplomas or not shaking folks hands, or have stats on big banners walking across things. I think when we talk about resistance, and I think it is important to talk about what principle, solidarity looks like, putting bodies on the line, and all that stuff matters, that's what moves. And also, I do think as folks do- we'll kinda talk about symbols and stuff as not being as moving or meaningful, I think I would argue that it is meaningful. I would argue it's part of it. Seeing folks do that, that was still a risk, and folks still got punished because in certain places, too, that I've read. That was dope. I wasn't in school at the time but some folks who were in grad school walked across the stage with big flags.
[01:00:06.850] - Caullen
So that was cool to see, and that was May, June of this year. We get the summer, we get everything that happened in the presidential race, we get this nonprofit killer bill, we get a new Trump administration, we get the genocide continuing. We get more sand shifting in the Middle East and shit popping. And a lot of stuff home and abroad that looks like doom and gloom. But we've also seen a lot of things that, to me, feel hopeful and feel powerful. And so I'm curious for y'all, looking towards the future- whether that's personally, where you're seeing your community, the folks around you, or more broadly organizing-wise, whether that's in Chicago, whether that's in the country, whether that's globally, internationalism, putting that in the rise. What makes you hopeful or what have you seen be constructive anger to funnel into making lasting change and bringing more people into the movement for a free Palestine? Take a second.
[01:01:11.500] - David
I definitely have thoughts, but I think my thoughts lean less towards being a student and dealing with encampments and dealing with police in those areas. Just listening to Amoona right now and just describe some of those situations, I think... We talk about awareness or public education, sometimes very loosely. But these, again, have been other demonstrations. I'm thinking of flashpoint, like 2020, we're like, oh, police are still beating the shit out of Black people on the street? And you got white people who never... You have demographics of people who, because they do not experience that violence, because they do not experience that type of oppression, they do not know it exists.
[01:01:56.810] - David
And I think as someone who is not Palestinian, but who understands oppression, seeing that happen on the other side of the world, I think to me, I've only been ever encouraged. And what brings me hope is the skill-sharing, and whether that's with education.. I think we started this thing talking about sometimes us feeling like we got the vernacular to go into academic dialog about anti-colonialism. But then when we're talking with my tio, he's not going to give a fuck- if I give him a three-syllable a word? He's not going to... He's going to be like, You lost me. You know what I'm saying?
[01:02:33.890] - Amoona
Exactly. Language.
[01:02:34.800] - David
Going back to what makes me hopeful, I feel like we are now at a point, unfortunately, over a year in, where there is now a lot of digestible material, where it's no longer a point. I think maybe Lesley is the one who said this as being a convert to Judaism, it's like, it is impossible at this point to have a blind eye to what is exactly going on. Motherfuckers want to attribute it to AI. "These videos are all AI. It's not fucking real or whatever...."
[01:03:06.360] - Caullen
Wait, what??
[01:03:06.360] - David
Yeah, we talked about that during the episode.
[01:03:07.890] - Caullen
Is that a thing?
[01:03:07.890] - David
Yeah, where like, "Fake videos, so you don't actually know those are all babies. It's all AI, whatever, whatever."
[01:03:13.230] - Caullen
Absurd.
[01:03:16.530] - David
So that's kinda what's giving me hope. At least from, again, being a little bit more removed from it, but still being very prevalent. I've been really inspired by the way now those of us without Palestinian background can speak about this colonial project and using it for the intersectionality of the global intifada. And I think that's what the move- I think that's the chest piece that has been moved, where different countries have been moving the way they need to. But as we talk about on Bourbon 'n BrownTown, we are the empire. We are the core of the empire. And so it's different for us moving against these systems than it is for motherfuckers in Chile, motherfuckers in Gaza, motherfuckers in Georgia, which we're seeing them go crazy as we speak about. Which I still don't even know how, but I love the way they're protesting. It's all about building and keeping those tactics. That's really what's inspiring me. It's having that type of dialog, myself maybe being just fine-tuned, now I can talk to anyone about this shit. You're like, Well, let's talk about it. So you're pro? It's like, Oh, you like AIPAC? Oh, why you like AIPAC? Oh, because they took out Cory Bush? Oh... so... I'm not trying to bring AIPAC to the surface.
[01:04:30.610] - Caullen
Do you run into those people on the street, type shit?
[01:04:32.430] - David
Well, I like going to bars. And I'm definitely one of those people who like, I'll cheers the motherfucker next to me because it's bad luck...
[01:04:39.090] - Caullen
So, uhhh, What's your name? Cool. Do you like AIPAC? Wait, what? I just met you, bro.
[01:04:43.930] - David
*laughing* No, that's too direct. That's too on the nose.
[01:04:46.510] - Amoona
Sometimes you have to be direct.
[01:04:49.020]
[sound clip from Kendrick Lamar "Not Like Us"]
[01:04:51.150] - Amoona
It's funny because in my younger years in college, I'd be like, Are you poor? Like, I wouldn't say it like that, but like...
[01:05:02.070] - Caullen
Government cheese.
[01:05:02.970] - Amoona
I was like, Where do you fall on the spectrum of your class status?
[01:05:09.019] - David
Do you know what "snap" means?
[01:05:09.370] - Amoona
Because for me, as someone coming from a background that's not upper, like that. I'm like, I need to know who I'm talking to and how their experience is going to vary from mine. And I feel like you can already tell, but sometimes-
[01:05:26.790] - Caullen
Do you have proxy questions? Or would you just be like, Hey, you poor or not?
[01:05:30.430] - Amoona
I mean, I don't think I have proxy questions. I was like, I do have a particular one, but I can't say it here because it'll rat me out.
[01:05:39.510] - Caullen
Aww, damn!
[01:05:40.320] - Amoona
I know! I'll tap into it later, though. But yeah, I'll tap into it with y'all later. But I would ask, and I don't know, because sometimes you get that feeling. But I would only ask when I was like, I wasn't sure, but I vibed with them. Because there's a-
[01:05:56.260] - David
For sure. Clarity question.
[01:05:58.530] - Caullen
Was there ever cognitive distance? Where you're like, Oh, this person's dope. But yeah, so, my trust fund... And you're like, wh-what??
[01:06:04.330] - Amoona
There's a couple. I feel like even with-
[01:06:08.050] - Caullen
Shoutout Richie Rich.
[01:06:08.890] - Amoona
No, shoutout to the richer people I organize with.
[01:06:13.620] - David
The ones with the bag. Yeah, the one who poured the bag in.
[01:06:15.760] - Amoona
The people that got their bag on the low, I appreciate y'all.
[01:06:21.990] - David
soapboxpo.com/support.
[01:06:22.670] - Amoona
You know who you are.
[01:06:23.690] - David
No. I'm just kidding.
[01:06:24.510] - Amoona
But I feel like even in those spaces... Wait, I'm getting so off the bandwagon. I don't know if y'all want me to answer the question first.
[01:06:31.680] - Caullen
We can... we'll figure it out.
[01:06:33.220] - Amoona
We can vibe. Okay. Well, I was going to say I actually have been having this conversation with multiple people in the past week or two. And I feel like, I don't know, this is a good opening, but just organizing and having the differentiation in class dynamics and just how you speak or acknowledge or move on, I don't know, liberation movements. I think there's a division between knowledge or lack thereof. Even me being someone who is Palestinian, I don't know everything of Palestine. And that has to go with everything.
[01:07:16.370] - Caullen
Speak for all of your people.
[01:07:17.370] - Amoona
No, exactly. Like, speak for everybody. Umm..... It's just silence.
[01:07:22.790] - Caullen
Do you know Muhammad? I.... I know a couple.
[01:07:24.700] - Amoona
I know a couple. *laughing* But I think engaging- especially in academic spaces, where when you're organizing on college campuses, I feel like the line between organizing and the academic space is a little bit blurred, and it goes back to the accessibility thing. When you were talking about your tio and not understanding, when we think about, "oh, globalize the intifada", what does that really mean? How do we understand this mechanism of globalization? You have to make language and knowledge accessible so anybody can understand it and read it.
[01:08:08.040] - Amoona
Like, you think about people in Appalachia, Palestine is probably not at the forefront of their mind because they're struggling, like, there's a food desert. There's not enough sufficient harm reduction programs for people that have, I don't know, possibly drug addiction or other things or alcoholism. You know, if you're not able to highlight what it means to be in interconnected struggle- and I feel like that's one of my hopes and goals, and I think I see it happening. To tie it back, valuing interpersonal relationships and making sure that we can understand what does interconnected struggle and liberation look like? How do we achieve that? And showing up for one another.
[01:08:58.140] - Amoona
I think right now, at least I feel on a personal level, the student movement is at a bit of an impasse at certain campuses because there's been so many fractures during and post encampment era. I don't know. There's just so many nuances with that, and I'm not going to get into that because that could be a whole essay.
[01:09:23.980] - Caullen
The nuances of organizing? Whaat?
[01:09:26.290] - Amoona
Yeah. That's always-
[01:09:28.680] - Caullen
It's so simple. It's straight forward!
[01:09:28.680] - David
That sounds like it's 82 pages long.
[01:09:30.050] - Caullen
We all want the same thing. We're on the same page all the time, right?
[01:09:32.880] - Amoona
Yeah, we're on the same page. Yeah. But all of that to say is, making things accessible, addressing there is always going to be a class barrier. I think my favorite topic is talking about the bourgeois and how they fucked everything up. So I think-
[01:09:49.430] - Caullen
Are fuck-ing everything.
[01:09:50.190] - Amoona
Yeah, that's true. Present tense. Because I just think some people are just not cognizant of that. I think there's a differentiation between you can listen about my struggle and you can maybe understand or comprehend it, but you won't feel it. You're not going to feel it the way that I feel it as someone who's Palestinian or a Sudanese person that you won't feel the crisis of what's going on in Sudan. Or in Lebanon or even in Syria right now. You'll never feel what those people, even within the diaspora or within the homeland feel. I think some people just don't get that distinction. And I hope that we can reach an understanding to value interconnected struggle and engage in conversation and value one another.
[01:10:46.600] - David
I love that. 100%. I love that. Caullen, what about you? Answer your own question.
[01:10:51.320] - Caullen
Man, I forgot what I asked y'all. Oh, a hope for the future.
[01:10:53.790] - David
What's giving you hope in this moment? Because I think I really appreciate what you shared with us, Amoona, in terms of seeing it full picture; but at the end of the day, it does end up being with who are the people you're talking to? It ends with who are the people you're engaging with? What are the institutions that you have privilege or power over and/or not? I think it's cool that you're asking motherfuckers like, Hey, are you poor? That's a good question. That's literally, it's a good... For me, it was always like, Oh, I'm a first-gen, what about you? You know what I'm saying? Type of vibe. But, Caullen, what's giving you hope?
[01:11:26.560] - Caullen
What's giving me hope is the other frustrated, petty people doing good work. When I say frustrated, I think... At the state of the world, of everything we've mentioned with the genocide in Gaza and Democrats not being shit and capitalism, white supremacy, anti-Blackness, sexism, and all the things. But at this- I don't know if I wanna say moderate, but I'm thinking about just the election cycle in the United States. And we saw a lot of this with folks that were not principled in struggle and folks that I, and we, thought were-
[01:12:12.150] - David
Fell flat.
[01:12:13.580] - Caullen
Ceding and either falling flat or, falling in line with the Democrats and what have you. And this idea of, I'm using this as an example for the election as far as, How did this happen? How did Harris lose? I'm like, I'll give you 30 reasons why. We told you why, especially a year ago with the genocide. Frustrated with the bad analysis on how we got here. I mean that about Palestine, but also just more broadly as far as international struggle and resistance against global capitalism and white supremacy and anti-Black racism, anti-Palestinian racism, etc. What I like that I saw over the past year was this understanding of internationalism and principled struggle across borders, which are, of course, made up and not real.
[01:13:04.170] - Caullen
Seeing how fights in other places, Korea as of late. Palestine, of course, we're talking about on this episode. Ireland. Even Hong Kong uprising and then seeing how like, Oh, yes, these are different places. Yes, things look different, feel different, it's in different apparatus, but also sometimes it's the exact same people or companies or a multinational corporation doing the same harm and impression. It's the same type of tactics or similar type of tactics that folks can use everywhere to rise up and resist.
[01:13:34.070] - Caullen
I think I had an idea of internationalism before that, looking at Pan-Africanism in the '60s and stuff. But seeing and feeling and more embodying it now was enlightening for me. I think talking to folks who also this moderate like, Yeah, I know genocide is terrible, but Trump...
[01:13:52.590] - David
is worse.
[01:13:53.490] - Caullen
Coming at that analysis is poor, violent, and problematic to the utmost. Critiquing that in a healthy good way, and looking at time as nonlinear and saying, yes, Trump coming in is horrible and we're not naive in the fact of what he can and will do, but also what produced it in the first place? What produced the need for this operation in the first place on October 7th? And what produced the conditions that allow this to be possible in the first place? And to both fight what is on the horizon in the most horrific ways. If moderation under Democrats is genocide, then yes, Trump is going to be worse. However, moderation under Democrats is genocide, so how did we get here? And why do we, I say we very broadly, but why do folks in such a mass have trust in these institutions, and electeds, and schools?
[01:14:50.830] - Caullen
But also, I think what's more scary than trust in them, cause I think that can be debunked, is that we have no other option. If people make the world move, people are the world, and if in mass and in numbers, we're the ones with the power, folks are realizing that power and not believing mainstream narratives and being awoken to these things. And hopefully, transforming conscience on a mass level, which I feel like I have seen. And it's been cool hearing from folks who have been throwing down for Palestinian liberation for years, being like, I used to believe that yes, Palestine will be free, probably not in my lifetime, but it will be free, I believe that. Being like, Oh, no, it could happen in my lifetime.
[01:15:30.860] - David
I mean, it has to.
[01:15:31.480] - Caullen
Hearing that from folks who have been the most hopeful but also most cynical at the same time within this work, it feels and looks dope. I don't know how you can make that answer concise, but-
[01:15:42.510] - David
We'll edit that down accordingly.
[01:15:43.120] - Caullen
Edit that down. "Caullen hates Black people", no... Just seeing that groundswell of folks being like, This is shitty, this is right, and being unapologetic in that. I almost hesitate saying it because I feel like it's overused of being like, No, this is right. In any liberation struggle, violence is the reality. This is part of this longer fight. We have to be on the right side of history and do the thing and not concede. Everything matters. The sticker on your laptop matters, you being in the streets matter. Fighting the cop matters. All this stuff matters. Doing that in principled struggle with other people is how we get free.
[01:16:26.020] - David
That's facts. I appreciate you bringing that question to us. I think oftentimes, especially with conversations like this, it sounds all doom and gloom, but there's not- there's definitely silver linings to all of that. I appreciate everyone in this conversation bringing those to the forefront. Because, again, clearly this is not over. I did want to ask, you Amoona, you mentioned most campuses are getting ready for the holidays, but what are some of the things you're seeing from organizations, from your peers or your colleagues about 2025? Whether that includes Trump or doesn't, or includes the HR bill about going against anti-Israel organizations- which are truly just any Palestine organizations who get funding federally. I'm just curious, what are you seeing from your network, from your circles in terms of 2025?
[01:17:29.860] - Amoona
I think right now, I'm really seeing a bigger initiative for longer-withstanding campaigns. I feel like a lot of things- you know, you can think of die-ins, encampments, occupation sit-ins, vigils, they can only do so much in the grand scheme of things and eventually people get tired. But over time, what are things that can make a tangible and material impact? Like, if you can do the work from the bottom up and do things in increments, but your end goal is still the same. I think that's a really large one that I'm seeing right now.
[01:18:13.060] - Amoona
I guess in particular, I don't know. I mean, top of my mind as always- shoutout Columbia. I think in tandem with what happened today on December 9th, they just did a large board of trustees campaign, targeting people and trying to do... I'm forgetting right now the particulars. But things with these entities, you know like, the Board of Trustees, it's a very undemocratic process. I think, specifically at private institutions; I think it's very different in a public university setting. And I feel like-
[01:18:52.950] - David
It's like nepotism to a 10th degree.
[01:18:55.530] - Amoona
Yes. I don't know, it's so fucking weird. But I digress. That alone, I feel like within going into 2025 is interesting. I think in another sense, I think people are a bit more fearful. I'm thinking one of the folks I work with is an international student, and they were telling me, "oh, you know, they said to go home because I don't know the next time that you'll be allowed out of the country because you're on a visa," like on a student visa, and under Trump, you don't know. I don't know what he's cooking. So it's stuff like that.
[01:19:34.140] - Caullen
Don't let that boy cook.
[01:19:35.490] - Amoona
Yeah. Don't let him cook. Don't even let him-
[01:19:38.040] - Caullen
In the kitchen.
[01:19:38.350] - Amoona
Turn on anything. Leave him in the dark. But that aside, and that's not even affiliated with Palestine. I can't imagine what is a second Trump era going to look like under the current siege on the Middle East? I feel like as a child, I've heard so many things on how the Middle East was a war zone. I think about Afghanistan, Iraq, even the past Israeli aggressions on Gaza. And Syria, Lebanon- it's insane. I think as an adult, rewatching it play out, but being more of a cognizant human being and saying, what are things that materially I can do to try and improve what's happening? Like, the small things that I can do.
[01:20:38.130] - Amoona
But that aside, that was really long-winded. Long story short, TL;DR. I think it's definitely long-standing. Long-standing campaigns, I think, is at the forefront. And I've seen a lot more initiatives on really trying to talk with one another and build community in spaces. Because having teach-ins or having visiting people or panels, just trying to just build community with one another, I feel like it's so big. I think it's something people don't really, at times, value or harp on enough.
[01:21:15.810] - David
Again, I'm like, I should go get my master's somewhere. I should just fuck around and find out.
[01:21:23.080] - Caullen
Fuck around and spend some money and find out.
[01:21:25.450] - David
No, I mean, when I went to undergrad, I was a FAFSA student. Which, actually, we're not going to get into it- but isn't Trump trying to completely destroy the education department?
[01:21:34.820] - Amoona
Yes! He's literally trying to eradicate the Department of Education. And I'm like, We already need to fix the public school system. You're Trying to... Well, we just said we weren't going to get into it, but just limiting the academic knowledge to certain students because of geographic location.
[01:21:57.270] - Caullen
Let the states deal with it, type of thing
[01:21:58.450] - Amoona
Yeah, exactly. I was like, Let the states deal with it? Then we're fucked. Oh my god.
[01:22:05.550] - David
No, but we definitely... Yeah. No. Well, Amoona, really appreciate you sharing your time and your experience with us and our listeners at B'nb. I think, again, unfortunately, this isn't a light conversation. It's heavy and deep for a reason, but we, again, appreciate you being part of this series. We appreciate all of our listeners digesting the material as it comes. I did want to give you an opportunity to give any shoutouts or show any love to groups that our listeners and us at Soapbox should be aware of and engaging with.
[01:22:46.890] - David
As we're going, again, talking about 2025 and all the things that come with it, we oftentimes hear- talking about find your movement home. And oftentimes, that sounds easier said than done. And so giving people, whether they're Palestinian or not, intros or some of those doors, I think is always helpful. So any you think on the top of mind for some of our listeners?
[01:23:09.900] - Amoona
Yeah. I mean, obviously, I think I can think of some of the bigger orgs here in Chicago, too. The biggest shoutout, too, so I don't know: AMP, USPCN, CJP- Chicago Coalition for Justice in Palestine. Obviously, I think about Jisoor, I think, stationed here in Chicago. Palestinian Youth Movement. Then obviously, shoutout to NSJP and the work they're doing. The NSJP Illinois Chapter, I think all the work that they're doing is super dope. The only special shoutout I'll do is to the Prison and Neighborhood Arts Education Project. I love the work they're doing. I think especially highlighting that Black and Palestinian liberation is intertwined. A lot of folks that I know that are formerly or incarcerated right now were, well, A) victims, and they were villainized. Everybody.... I think coming out of this discussion, everybody's a human being. We need to have empathy and be cognizant. Ignorance is bliss for only so long.
[01:24:25.050] - Caullen
Say that.
[01:24:26.170] - Amoona
I just hope coming out of this discussion, just trying to find and build your community. Some people are shy or some people don't know where they fit in. But I think it's really taking that first step of not being fearful, but just trying to educate others. So like, you can do with that information what you will, I'm giving you the tools and resources to go out on your own and decide if you want to be part of this movement or not. And in which way and what capacity do you have for our inherent liberation for everybody.
[01:25:04.040] - David
I love that. Caullen, any last words for the peoples?
[01:25:09.190] - Caullen
Fuck 12, free Palestine. Fuck Trump, fuck Biden.
[01:25:13.700] - David
He's finished all his bourbon.
[01:25:15.320] - Caullen
The liter of bourbon I was drinking is gone, so we're out here.
[01:25:19.340] - Caullen
I'm dying. And so, as always, make sure you peep the episode notes for all the information on all the details. I want to thank you so much for joining us, being here with us, talking this real shit.
[01:25:30.060] - Caullen
Wait, David, real quick. Tell us about your swag you got on today.
[01:25:33.620] - David
Some of the swag I got on. I got "From the River to the Sea, bitch," but our homies didn't put a comma in it, and so it just reads "From the River to the Sea bitch". Sea bitch is a term that we're delivering on. But shoutout to the Nola homies for providing the swag. Then shoutout to Jamie, who actually does our transcriptions, they were making some stuff, and I was like, Oh, you got cute little watermelon earrings! So we snatched it up from them because they're supporting a family in Palestine, as well, through some of their arts and crafts.
[01:26:05.750] - David
Again, I'm just sitting really, really... I'm actually more gassed because I do believe that there's more of us than there are of them. I think starting to define and letting people understand that you are part of the "us". At least in this conversation, you may not be Palestinian, you may not be Black, you may not be Chicano, you know what I'm saying? But you're still part of us.
[01:26:28.160] - Caullen
Unfortunately. You still love me.
[01:26:28.680] - David
You see what I'm saying? Because you're closer to being homeless, you're closer to being broke, you're closer to being killed by cops than you are to be hanging out with Elon Musk and fucking Trumpudo and his fucking family. You feel what I'm saying? The more we can define that-
[01:26:44.070] - Caullen
To the white folks in Appalachia, we out here, we struggling together. Class struggle, babyyy.
[01:26:47.740] - Amoona
Special shoutout. I know JD Vance, if you're listening....
[01:26:53.440] - David
Fuck you, with your bitch ass.
[01:26:55.700] - Amoona
I think you could have been fixed, but I think it's too late. But for the next gen, there's hope. And on a silly note, but no. Yeah, that's it.
[01:27:13.170] - David
That's a wrap. From Bourbon 'n BrownTown, as always, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.
[01:27:18.940] - Caullen
Stay tuned, stay turnt.
[01:27:20.680] - David
We'll see you for the next one.
OUTRO
Song HINDS HALL2 by Macklemore ft. Anees, MC Abdul, Amer Zahr.