BrownTown virtually visits Atlanta and chops it up with Chelle Sanders and Jasmine Burnett, organizers with #StopCopCity. Chicago’s #NoCopAcademy and Atlanta’s #StopCopCity movements are part of the same struggle: to end violent policing, protect the environment and defend Black and brown lives. As similar as they are, only years apart, they also both vary in terms of structure and place-based history. Still, the Black-led, multi-racial constellations of grassroots organizations, concerned citizens, and organizers worked and are working to stop their municipalities from investing into a new police compound and divert those resources into the community and life-affirming networks of care. Building coalition and growing more general solidarity both bring strength in the very same ways they can prove difficult to navigate with groups/people coming to an issue from different perspectives, ideologies, and tactics. BrownTown, Chelle, and Jasmine unpack these struggles and the corresponding #DefendAtlantaForest effort to uplift our collective fights for liberation.
BrownTown virtually visits Atlanta and chops it up with Chelle Sanders and Jasmine Burnett, organizers with #StopCopCity. Chicago’s #NoCopAcademy and Atlanta’s #StopCopCity movements are part of the same struggle: to end violent policing, protect the environment and defend Black and brown lives. As similar as they are, only years apart, they also both vary in terms of structure and place-based history. Still, the Black-led, multi-racial constellations of grassroots organizations, concerned citizens, and organizers worked and are working to stop their municipalities from investing into a new police compound and divert those resources into the community and life-affirming networks of care. Building coalition and growing more general solidarity both bring strength in the very same ways they can prove difficult to navigate with groups/people coming to an issue from different perspectives, ideologies, and tactics. BrownTown, Chelle, and Jasmine unpack these struggles and the corresponding #DefendAtlantaForest effort to uplift our collective fights for liberation.
GUESTS
Chelle is an organizer with EndstateATL, an ATL-based organization committed to the liberation of Black folk everywhere and building the future we imagine with a Black Queer Feminist politic. Chelle has organized with ESA for four years facilitating political education sessions from abolition to alternative economic systems and connecting Black folks in the city to mutual aid resources, building community along the way. In the fight to Stop Cop City, Chelle co-coordinated and facilitated the 2021 fellowship hosted by In Defense of Black Lives that helped to jumpstart the Black Stop Cop City coalition. Today, that coalition continues to build community with the Black folks who will be most impacted by its construction.
Jasmine is an Atlanta native and abolitionist organizer with Community Movement Builders who has been building power in the Black community around displacement, gentrification, and to Stop Cop City.
Follow Stop Cop City on Instagram and Twitter and follow Defend Atlanta Forest on Instagram and Twitter. More information on episode topics:
CREDITS: Intro and outro soundbite a #StopCopCity protest in March 2023. Intro speaker is former #NoCopAcademy organizer Destiny Harris. Inserts within the episode are from SoapBox's No Cop Academy: The Documentary. Episode graphic from Protect Our Water, Heritage, Rights. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles.
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BrownTown virtually visits Atlanta and chops it up with Chelle Sanders and Jasmine Burnett, organizers with #StopCopCity. Chicago’s #NoCopAcademy and Atlanta’s #StopCopCity movements are part of the same struggle: to end violent policing, protect the environment and defend Black and brown lives. As similar as they are, only years apart, they also both vary in terms of structure and place-based history. Still, the Black-led, multi-racial constellations of grassroots organizations, concerned citizens, and organizers worked and are working to stop their municipalities from investing into a new police compound and divert those resources into the community and life-affirming networks of care. Building coalition and growing more general solidarity both bring strength in the very same ways they can prove difficult to navigate with groups/people coming to an issue from different perspectives, ideologies, and tactics. BrownTown, Chelle, and Jasmine unpack these struggles and the corresponding #DefendAtlantaForest effort to uplift our collective fights for liberation.
INTRO
(Sound bite from #StopCopCity protest in March 2023)
[00:00:40] Destiny Harris: Mayor Lori Lightfoot, the first Black and queer major of Chicago, the first mayor in over 40 something years to lose a re-election. To lose a re-election. We need to do the same thing here in Atlanta, because like we're saying, this fight is not new. I was 16 fighting against No Cop Academy in 2017. It's 2023. It's five years later and the same shit is happening across the United States. Say that ain't right.
[00:01:19] Crowd: That ain't right!
[00:01:20] Destiny Harris: Say, that ain't right!
[00:01:22] Crowd: That ain't right!
[00:01:23] Destiny Harris: So I say all this to say, solidarity is what's important. Because this is not just happening in Atlanta. It's not just happening in Chicago. It's not just happening on the West Coast. It's not just happening over here. It's happening all across the world. Say, that ain't right.
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:41] David: I'd like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy David. Coming to you from the beautiful city of Chicago with my boy, Caullen. Caullen, bro, how you doing today?
[00:01:49] Caullen: I'm doing okay. Got up at a decent time today. Normally come into these recordings nervous and super tired. But I'm actually like, somewhat rested. And still nervous, but nervous in a good way.
[00:01:59] David: Yeah.
[00:01:59] Caullen: Just been thinking about this conversation for a while now. Especially after our trip to Atlanta in March. So I'm excited to kind of get it going. But how are you doing?
[00:02:09] David: I'm doing good, bro. I'm not gonna lie, I'm tired as hell. You know, take one, take two, take three, type shit, type of day. So... you know. But it's been- spending the last few days moving, which has been cool. Actually, my mom's been in town from Mexico for Mother's Day. So shout out. Happy beated Mother's Day to all of our mothers out there. But yeah, no, just tired as fuck. Pissed as fuck at a lot of tenants that make it difficult for my dog to live there.
[00:02:38] Cause, I don't know... they're scared of her ass. So you know, I don't know how it is where y'all from, but it's been a hassle. At least for the last four months. But excited that we finally got a place. So we're excited to settle in and I'm excited for-
[00:02:51] Caullen: House. Warm-ing.
[00:02:52] David: I'm telling you there's gonna be multiple. There's gonna be multiple. Also like, it's not a giant ass apartment, but you know. We just, you know, the more the merrier type shit. But to your point, also incredibly excited, really grateful for the guests that we have on today. It's- we've been doing so much work with No Cop Academy.
[00:03:11] I honestly- when we recorded the first episode- for folks, episode 26, y'all can definitely check it out with No Cop Academy folks- I didn't think I was going to be still talking about it the way I'm talking about it five years later or six years, you know what I'm saying? And so to me, it's really exciting for us to bring back- look at that example, and then really see what's been going on. To your point, talk to some people on the ground. And so... yeah. Any other thing there, Caullen?
[00:03:42] Caullen: No, I agree. I mean, I think that episode was also in the middle of the campaign? And so not only- if we'd have the conversation right after the campaign is over, it'd be different. But it's kind of nice, it's a nice, interesting, cultural moment within the campaigns, how we were viewing things in the middle of it with so much stuff had changed the second half. I think Rahm hadn't even said he's not going to go for re-election at that point yet.
[00:04:07] David: True.
[00:04:08] Caullen: A lot of things were different. And obviously looking back several years later, especially after COV- at this point in COVID- after the uprisings too, when we've had this flashpoint of folks learning about abolition. Then the revanchism push back against it in 2021, even this year. It's an interesting moment for us to talk about it now, especially on top of No Cop, as well as other multiple fights against policing in this nation and abroad. So I think it's a good moment to try to get into this; where Cop City has not been built, and we can still make these podcasts and media moment to push the narrative and make people understand that this is bigger than just something happening in one city, it's actually a global struggle.
[00:04:48] David: Yeah. And without further ado, we're gonna allow our guests to introduce themself. We'll start with Chelle Sanders.
[00:04:55] Chelle: Hey, my name is Chelle. I'm an organizer. I'm originally from the Chicagoland area. And I moved to Atlanta five years ago. I've been organizing for maybe four-ish years. Yeah, I got involved in the Cop City movement in 2021 when folks decided we needed some Black folks to get together. To really push forward the movement.
[00:05:23] Jasmine: Hey, y'all, my name is Jasmine Burnett. I use she/her pronouns. I'm an Atlanta native, and an organizer here doing a lot to build power in Black communities to push back against displacement, gentrification, and obviously working really heavily around Stop Cop City. Have been involved in the struggle since 2021, just like Chelle. Before that, was doing some local organizing around police abolition here in Atlanta. So yeah, really happy to be with y'all today and to chat more about this really important issue.
[00:06:02] Caullen: Dope. Ci-ty. So excited. I think- yeah, with this, as I mentioned earlier, there's the two tracks in my mind with this conversation: 1) just the stark- and almost kind of eerie similarities between No Cop Academy and Stop Cop City. Both the movement and struggle against the municipalities, what they're trying to push and invest in to policing, but also how the municipalities are working as well. So there's the similarities between them and how- like I said earlier, these issues and struggles happening in certain cities or whatever are not- are very similar, and it's a global struggle.
[00:06:38] But also just coalition in general. I think we- No Cop Academy was a coalition and a campaign. Whereas I know Stop Cop City is similar and there's also Defend Atlanta Forest, so I kinda wanna get into that. But I wanted to table set those two main tracks of this conversation. And just looking at how uniquely similar they are, as well as consisting of coalitions, building towards, really, the same goals: end policing- which is always violent policing, and protecting the environment, and defend Black and Brown lives. Which seems like something everyone could get on board with, but unfortunately it's not quite the case.
[00:07:11] And also when we think about coalition building, we mentioned this too a lot in the previous iteration of this with No Cop Academy in 2018, was that- I think we've experienced and also been a part of and seen how coalition, we can be stronger in numbers; but also people bringing in different perspectives, and talents, and skills, and ideology to similar fights, but also that can make things difficult at the same time. And so how do you navigate that when it's not jus gear one, or when everyone's on the same... has the same background, looking for the same thing or fighting for this one specific little area and their city, when it's broader than that. It makes it- I think it makes it better and more full, and we can see how these things are generalizable across cities and across states and whatever. But also, yeah, it makes it makes it difficult, because we're having so many folks who are coming into an issue with so many different perspectives and backgrounds and ideologies and what have you. So I do kind of want to get into that as well.
[00:08:10] But I'm curious, Chelle and Jasmine, how you mentioned starting to organize a couple years ago- Chelle, you're a transplant to Atlanta, Jasmine, it's your home. Me being a transplant to Chicago, I always try to think about that, and where my place is in being radicalized- re-radicalized in Chicago. And also learning a lot of how I've come to consciousness again as an adult, as well as creative work in Chicago and how that has shaped me in a lot of ways. So I'm curious for y'all, how you got into struggle? And then also if the space and the place made a difference in how that happened?
[00:08:46] Jasmine: Being from Atlanta, I think there is a very widespread narrative around Atlanta being a Black Mecca, and being this amazing place for Black people to live; but growing up here, it's really easy to see all of the inequities that are present. Like, I went to a high school that had a magnet program- the school was, when I was there, had 80% Black, but the magnet program was 80% white. So things like that just made it really obvious that something was off. But obviously as a teenager, I didn't really know how to name it. Went off to school out of state, came back and Atlanta was really different. This was after the- obviously after the housing crisis in 2008. No one really knew what the impacts of that were going to be, so when I would come home from college in 2013, 2014, and see things like luxury apartments and half a million dollar houses where the projects used to be- it just reinforced the fact that Atlanta wasn't really going to be a place for Black people. Especially Black people without money. And I didn't really know what that would mean for the work that I would do. I kind of had this general framework that I wanted to just have a positive contribution. And so I got sucked into the nonprofit space for a little bit. I got sucked into the-.
[00:10:16] Caullen: Not the nonprofit space.
[00:10:18] Jasmine: Yeah... you know.. That was actually good because it taught me that that is not the answer. Like, being in it really showed me that this is just- as Ruth Wilson Gilmore says, Wealth stolen twice, it's just a way for these rich elites to really funnel their money into projects that don't do anything for people, and don't actually solve the problem.
[00:10:39] Caullen: It's like legal money laundering.
[00:10:40] Jasmine: Yeah. Like, if you have 10 billion dollars and you're saying that you want to stop intergenerational poverty, why are you only spending 200 million dollars? Like. And half of that money is really going to just sustain your organization.. So, that led me into urban planning. I thought I was going to be out here building affordable housing in Atlanta, and using that as a way to keep folks in place. Went to grad school, realized that that was not going to be any type of real solution. It's funny because Chelle and I did the same program at different times. Chelle had the strength and courage to leave. I thugged it out and wasted a lot of time. But, yeah, that's kind of when I was like, okay, working within these institutions and systems is not going to work, we need to build power. So that's why I transitioned into being an organizer.
[00:11:30] Again, like I said, it was really originally around police abolition and reallocating city funding to community programs and things that keep us safe. And then transitioned into Black radical organizing, which is what I do now with Community Movement Builders. So, yeah, that's been a lot of my journey. I think... unlearning a lot of the mythology around Atlanta, around even electoral politics is such a stronghold for how people like to organize, and how it sucks up so much radical energy here in Atlanta has really impacted and shaped the direction of how I show up in movement spaces now.
[00:12:11] Chelle: At some point in my life- I mean, I always tell my friends, free all my niggas from grad school. That's just like, my little...
[00:12:19] Caullen: *laughing*
[00:12:20] Chelle: I'm definitely gonna have an "abolish academia campaign" at some point in my life. But yeah- how did I get into organizing? So, I mentioned I'm from the south suburbs of Chicago. All Black community. You know what I mean? I feel like it was like a bubble of life: having resources and, you know, being around people of different class experiences. And I went to Northwestern for college and that shit like... it was my first time really being in close community with people who weren't just Black. And that was a lot of the place where I learned how to start organizing. I was a student organizer, did a campaign around getting our school to defund- or disinvest from private prisons. And just started to learn a little bit about abolition from there.
[00:13:18] Yeah, I actually did this organizing track with Mariam Kaba. And honestly, she was the first person who was like, don't be a lawyer, girl. Like, don't be a lawyer. If what you want to do is free people, don't be a lawyer. So I was like, damn, what am I going to do then? And I almost got into the nonprofit industrial complex too, but honestly, I was like, all of the positions I was applying for, I needed to make some more money than what they were offering- for the amount of work they were asking me to do. So I feel like my life has just kind of been bouncing from thing to thing until I find my place. And for some reason spirit just kind of called me to Atlanta. I came down here right before I graduated and I was like, I think I need to move down here. For no real reason other than I felt it.
[00:14:04] And you know, I also heard like, Atlanta's the Black Mecca, dadadaada... But that wasn't really the reason I came down here. I think I just felt some sort of kindred spirit between Chicago and Atlanta that I wanted to explore. And being a girly who's a product of the great migration, I just felt like there was some sort of... thing, that was drawing me there.
[00:14:27] Yeah, so I came down here and I joined the Atlanta BYP100 chapter. You know, I had always dreamed of joining the Chicago chapter; like, seeing the work that had been done, seeing the people who came out of the OG chapter and the incredible work that they've done. But I feel like I just kind of really quickly learned that huge- or like, social justice organizing wasn't really for me. We just had lots of conflict that kept coming up about how we wanted to do our organizing, how we wanted to make it more localized to Atlanta that just wasn't really being honored. And so we sunsetted our chapter. It was really dramatic. We wrote a whole letter. Probably five people have read it total cause, you know, it was a lot of drama around it locally, but not really nationally or whatever. And the folks who I have been organizing with, we decided we still wanted to do work together. And we decided to do work under the name of "EndstateATL".
[00:15:36] So our goal just really became trying to, you know, create less of a dependency of Black people with the state, and being able to meet people's needs. Cause like Jasmine said, people are struggling here. Black folks are struggling to stay in their homes. You know what I mean? These Black institutions that we look up to are often the drivers that are pushing people out. And thinking of university systems, and thinking of Black politicians, Black businesses, like they're driving a lot of the gentrification in the name of capitalism and moving- pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps- but like, you're pulling yourself up and you're throwing everybody else away. And it's really wild to witness.
[00:16:19] But yeah, I came down here for the history and quickly realized, like, I lived right by MLK's home when I first came down. But like, all my neighbors were white. All my neighbors were wealthy. I couldn't afford to live there at a certain point. And I just kept- I even found myself being driven further and further south. Damn near out of the city, to be honest. Who knows- I might end up in the suburbs of Atlanta soon because the way that rent is priced here- for the quality of home also, is just out of control. But yeah, I guess that's just how I came to be here, and I ground a lot of my work in the experiences I've had watching Chicago organizers do their thing. And I try and bring some of that spirit down here, too.
[00:17:07] Caullen: I just want to pause and name the... You, as a younger Black woman, was essentially priced out of living next to MLK's home by wealthy white people, in Atlanta, of all places. I think that takes a moment to really sit, and think about what that actually means in terms of your actual reality, and what that's a symbol of how that..
[00:17:34] Chelle: It's really trippy.
[00:17:35] David: It's been really wonderful, for me, doing this type of work like podcasting. And hearing how distinct, but yet how close, we come into the work, right? I think, for us, No Cop Academy was that first move. And even then, it was youth led. So I was like- the organizing was definitely just different, and we definitely appreciate it. And so I just actually wanted to start centering- and for folks who are listening from Chicago, or not familiar with what is Cop City. And I'm wondering if one of y'all could give us a little bit about it, maybe how either of y'all organizations got into it, and why it's continuing to be a problem.
[00:18:17] Jasmine: Sure. So Cop City is a proposed 90 million dollar urban warfare training facility that is sponsored by the Atlanta Police Foundation, which is essentially a conglomerate of corporate elites and corporations, as well as institutionally, it's different folks from the university systems here in Atlanta that want to expand policing here in Atlanta. So they're pushing the project, they're designing the project, but 30 of that 90 million- a little over 30 of that 90 million, is actually going to be coming from the city of Atlanta to help subsidize the project.
[00:18:56] We call it an urban warfare training facility, not to be dramatic, just because it's actually what it is. They're going to be building a mock city of Atlanta where they can practice high speed chases, raids, they'll have a place to detonate bombs, a shooting range, just literally urban warfare tactics. If it's any indication of what's to come, the Atlanta police department currently and has already been trained with the Israeli police. So the fascism and genocide exchange it's coming even stronger here in Atlanta.
[00:19:30] And so what's also critical about this is that to build this site will require the destruction of over 300 acres of public forest, which is in a majority Black and Brown working class community that is already experiencing the environmental racism that comes from living in a majority Black and Brown and working class community. That's only going to get worse if all of these trees are cut down, and obviously all of the pollutants from the bomb detonations and from the shooting range is expected to get into the drinking water. So it really sits at the intersection of all of the issues that you could potentially even think about organizing around: policing, abolition, environmental racism, and then obviously, if police power expands, anything that you want to struggle around- even if it's abortion access, pushing back against all of the transphobic legislation that's coming. If police have more power, they're going to be weaponizing that power against people who are trying to fight against our oppression.
[00:20:36] And so Community Movement Builders got into this work really early. The former city council person for the district that we organize in, a Black woman named Joyce Sheperd, is the one who introduced the legislation to city council through the Public Safety Committee that would transfer the city owned land- those over 300 acres- to the Atlanta Police Foundation to lease for $10 a year. This was back in 2021, and it was on the heels of over a year's worth of organizing that community members were doing, organizers were doing, that was really about defunding the police, right? People had created vision, storytelling-campaigns about how they wanted the city's money to be spent and so we were really paying attention to the budget, and then all of a sudden saw this legislation and we're like, okay, so now we're organizing against Cop City.
[00:21:33] That organizing work was really initially: Community Movement Builders, Sunrise Movement, Atlanta DSA- that coalition had to stop because Atlanta DSA is anti-Black, so we.. That didn't work. Yeah... but we kept on organizing, I don't know what those folks have been doing. But we kept organizing in our communities, letting people who didn't know about the project, which was pretty much everyone we talked to, that it was happening, that it was sponsored by the person that was supposed to be representing our interests. And again, Joyce Sheperd was the same person who, after Rayshard Brooks was murdered by the Atlanta Police Department right outside the community where we organize in. Folks burned down the Wendy's, they made it a liberated zone, they were having workshops, they were having block parties, they were really showing what it could look like for a community to have self determination- Joyce Sheperd involved herself and said that folks in the community did not want this space to be turned into what was supposed to be a Peace Center. The Rayshard Brooks Peace Center, where community members could come and get housing resources, could come and get food, to come and get access to the things that really sustain us and keep us safe. She involved herself in the negotiations that the community was having with the Wendy's Corporation, and shut all of that down. And again, this is a Black woman, right? A Black woman who would probably describe their politics as progressive. So... very excited to get into a conversation about these Black elites in this discussion, but yeah. So a lot of our organizing was exposing that, and really trying to continue the momentum and energy that people were having in 2020, and shift it outside of electoral politics and into power building and community.
[00:23:27] Caullen: Thank you so much for that. I appreciate all of that. And just for clarification, when was Rayshard Brooks killed? Just a year or?
[00:23:33] Jasmine: 2020.
[00:23:35] Caullen: Okay, that's what I thought. And I'm curious, I always think about this in context of Chicago, as far as stuff that is happening currently- both in movement, as well as electoral politics and what have you, like the history that led up to it type of thing. Is there anything you feel is important to add as far as Atlanta either organizing or electoral politics, like with "Close The Jail ATL" or anything like that, kind of led up movement-wise to this moment? Or even with Keisha Lance Bottoms being a Black woman mayor during uprisings? Anything like that that colors this a little differently? Or is that kind of, it is what it is and not as much built on anything?
[00:24:10] Jasmine: No, I think it is definitely relevant. The Close The Jail Alliance had been going on for many, many years, even before 2020. Really organizing to, similarly to the Rayshard Brooks Peace Center, close the jail and turn it into a place where folks in community could actually get resources. The challenge with that movement is that they used a very electoral based strategy, which is kind of what organizers in Atlanta are trained to do. They were petitioning city council members, they were trying to build relationships with the mayor hoping that these people who had made promises would fulfill those promises. That didn't happen, right? Our current mayor, Andre Dickens, was on the task force to close the jail, promised to close the jail- is currently mayor, and the jail is still open, and now he's pushing for Cop City, right?
[00:25:00] And you know, this is- Close the Jail Alliance did a lot of work: they were canvassing, they were base building, they did all of the things that you would learn in a how-to-organize class, right? They were meeting with people in community, they were building coalitions, but the ask was to people in power who were more concerned about maintaining their power than actually giving power to people. And I think that's just a really important lesson for folks organizing in Atlanta- that this electoral system, no matter if these people are Black, no matter if they will tell you something to your face, they will lie every time because it is more advantageous for them to align themselves with money and with the police so that they can get reelected.
[00:25:45] As I mentioned, the person who introduced the legislation was Joyce Sheperd, she was unseated in the city council race after she introduced that legislation, by somebody- Antonio Lewis, who is now the city council person for that district, who ran opposing Cop City, which is why he got elected, and now he is nowhere to be found standing against Cop City, right? So it's this cycle of people knocking on doors, asking for their vote, taking what the popular side is in community, and then getting in places of power, having dinner with folks in the Atlanta Police Foundation, admittedly, and then coming out in public and saying their perspective on policing has changed. And so that whole entire atmosphere really frames, I think, how folks now are approaching organizing, especially as it relates to the Cop City movement; recognizing that there may be a piece around pushing our electoral politics, but that cannot be the central focus of how we're organizing.
[00:26:48] Chelle: And to piggyback off of that a little bit, 1) Antonio Lewis- it's not even that he's nowhere to be found, it's that he's actively saying that there's nothing that he can do. I feel like that's something that we find pretty often with our Black electoral leaders, is that they're with us, but then they act like they don't have the power to make a stand when it comes down to it. And so, something that I've been learning and taking away from the No Cop Academy movement, because I've used y'all's toolkit.
[00:27:21] Caullen: Let's go!
[00:27:22] Chelle: I've used that toolkit a lot to teach younger organizers about how we can create coalition and create solidarity around Stop Cop City. And something that sticks out to me is how anyone who joins- who joined the Coalition for No Cop Academy had to agree to certain rules. Like, we don't negotiate on behalf of the movement. And so like Jasmine said, there's definitely a piece towards electoral organizing, but it's not our only piece. But also that piece isn't going to work if we're going behind each other's backs to talk to politicians and cozy up to them when we know that what they're doing is pretty nefarious. So.
[00:28:05] Jasmine: Yeah.
[00:28:08] Caullen: Yeah. Thanks for bringing in No Cop. And just for y'all listening, that's NoCopAcademy.com/toolkit. But I read it the other day and I was like, man, this goes crazy. This is really good. And it's interesting because I think when we got really involved in No Cop, I think- I just learned a lot in that campaign, I think everyone did, but a lot of folks were coming off of a lot of wins: getting Anita Alvarez out of office, the former State's Attorney. Not endorsing anyone, but just getting her out. She was especially bad, even though that seat of prosecutor- State's Attorney's office, we don't want to exist, right? On top of Rekia Boyd, on top of... even #### didn't #### everything. We came on the heels of a lot of different fights, and some of those fights got wins. And when we came into No Cop Academy these were fights that weren't engaging in electoral politics that much, and very much were opposed to that in the apparatus of the state to further some of the harms we know to be true.
[00:29:01] But also seeing how it would be beneficial to engage in it with that same radical framework. And I think folks were, myself included, but also seasoned organizers were learning how to message in a way that didn't- really, endorse a certain alder or anything like that, or uplift them. But also being like, hey, you have- vote no against them, if not we know where you live, and we know what your power is, and we know... we're making the political consequences for you very poor if you don't do this. And so looking at the toolkit and watching the documentary that we're creating that's coming out soon, and just thinking about how we tried to balance how we are organizing in this sphere a little bit, but also keeping the radical framework abolition at the center. And not offering an alternative to No Cop Academy, other than investing in communities. Not like, making a smaller one, or just raise police salaries, but don't build a Cop Aca- like, no Cop Academy, period. And then take that money that you apparently have all of a sudden, that you're still trying to get, and invest it in communities.
[00:30:07] I'm curious, the similarities between No Cop and Stop Cop City. I know I've been thinking about them a lot, I'm curious if any of those have stuck out to y'all from Atlanta? Or David, if you, initially when you heard about Cop City and the struggle against it, if something stuck out to you that was really interesting?
[00:30:28] Chelle: I mean, I guess for me.... oh, I'm sorry. It's so much easier for me to talk about differences than it is for me to talk about similarities. But I mean, I think one of the biggest similarities is our push towards our city councils to be held accountable and to say no. You know. But I feel like that's the main similarity I can think of. I feel like where we diverge a lot is that when we said no, people took to the forest and was like, well, we're going to make you say no. I mean, I'm not as up-to-date on what post city council voting No Cop Academy movement looked like, but I think the environmental piece for Atlanta is really huge. Because that's how we got a lot of the delays and construction to happen. It's how we really started pressuring corporations to drop out of projects, was this environmental piece. Like we said before, they're cutting down tons and tons and tons of trees to make this happen, in a forest that's considered the "second lung of Atlanta".
[00:31:39] And I think it was one of the easier ways to find interracial coalition building happening. Because a lot of white liberals in the city, they don't care if Black people are being killed by police. They care in that moment, you know what I mean? But at the end of the day, their solution is we need more cops. I consider myself a little spy in these neighborhood Facebook groups, and like... Sometimes I gotta take the brakes. But I see the conversation happening around what people are saying about Cop City. 1) people are big mad that it's called "Cop City". They don't want us using that terminology. But at the end of the day, that's what it is. But I find that white folks are more willing to hear about how we shouldn't be cutting down the forest, you know what I mean? And to me, an entry point is an entry point. So that's kind of-.
[00:32:41] Caullen: Exploit it. Exploit it!
[00:32:44] Chelle: You know, I can't teach you how to care about people being killed, you know what I mean? But if you understand that trees are good, you know what- me too! You know what I mean? I consider myself a friend of the trees. You know what I mean? I love trees. I love talking to them. I feel hurt when they get cut down. You know what I mean? Maybe not the colonizer trees, but all that is to say is that I think we're finding it really difficult to build interracial solidarity.
[00:33:16] There's a reason we had to create a Black Stop Cop City coalition. And it was because so many individual Black folks who were interacting with, like... I mean, no shade to forest defenders, but like, we just have our own unique needs when it comes to being Black and talking about abolition and talking about the police, and also talking about the land, you know what I mean? And I don't think that has to be a bad thing. I think it just means that the way we go about interracial solidarity it's probably gonna look a little bit different.
[00:33:49] I mean, we're in the South, and that comes with some really deep entrenched history; especially as more and more people are transplanting themselves into the South. And not understanding what that history means. Like, a lot of people just see Atlanta as the next cheap city to make your way in: to be an actor, to be a tech bro, you know what I mean? And their first thought isn't really thinking about politics, or gentrification, because they are the ones gentrifying. So yeah, I think it's just- it's been difficult trying to build that connection for people, and also really center abolition as the politic. We're doing it, period. Because we're like, Stop Cop City period. We don't want it in another place. Even if you're not going to cut down the trees, we still don't want it. But I do know that that environmental aspect is a big entryway point for people to get involved.
[00:34:56] Caullen: There's so many threads with that that I want to pick at. The most- the one that's front of mind, which you kind of talked about too, is the difference, and Stop Cop City and Defend Atlanta Forest. It was interesting cause when- cause just for folks who don't know, in early March there was a week of solidarity, some folks from the No Cop Academy campaign went down to Atlanta: shared space, met some folks, met Chelle, watched the then cut of the No Cop Academy documentary, which is coming out soon, check it out. And it was really cool just being there and having, for me, having, reading about Stop Cop City and what Atlanta Police Foundation was doing for a couple years now, kind of seeing more and more traction on it. And then going there and meeting people and being in community with folks and feeling welcomed. But also being like, Hey, this isn't my home. Like, I don't, you know... this ain't my struggle- it is my struggle, but I don't want to step on any toes, but also just felt really warm being there. So shout out to all y'all for that moment.
[00:35:49] But I remember talking to a youth organizer, Freedom, with No Cop Academy, and he was like, I don't understand what's... there's Stop Cop City, there's Atlanta, there's Defend Atlanta Forest, like, I don't understand what the difference is. I was like, okay... I was like, okay, let me think. I'm like, okay. So, think of Stop Cop City as No Cop, but not as multiracial, mainly like the younger Black folks at No Cop. And then think of if a bunch of environmentalists or anarchists camped out at 14th 90 to.. Chicago, wherever the-
[00:36:21] David: Yeah, West Garfield Park.
[00:36:21] Caullen: police academy is- but they camped out there and just said no, and camped out there and had a whole community there. Think of that as like, "Defend West Garfield Park" or something. And then we are Stop Cop City. He's like, Oh, okay, alright. Maybe that's not accurate, but that's kind of how I explained it to him. And so, 1) I'm curious if that was- if there's through lines to that, but 2) you mentioned a lot as far as, not only those two kind of campaigns or co-struggles, but also within Stop Cop City being... folks doing different things and moving differently.
[00:36:58] I'm curious, especially with the Defend Atlanta Forest and Stop Cop City, if what you mentioned is kind of understood as far as y'all have your unique needs- we respect that we're going to do the forest shit and like, y'all respect that, is that understood? Or if that creates conflict? Or? I'm just curious how that is cause one, to your point, we didn't experience that. Also this ongoing campaign, and this will be out in the world, so as little or as much as you want to talk about it. But I'm curious about that in the conversation of coalition building, because I think you all have a very, very unique situation that I can- from the outside looking in and reading articles and talking to y'all here and there- can see strengths with, but also can see how that can get really sticky in a lot of ways.
[00:37:45] Jasmine: Yeah. So I would say... I think, so Stop Cop City and Defend Atlanta Forest are not organizations, they're just slogans. So there are a number, not a big number, but some Black people who were living in the forest, who would identify with the slogan Defend Atlanta Forest. There are a number of white people who organize under the Stop Cop City slogan. I would say that I think most of the Black organizing is probably using the slogan Stop Cop City, but also probably will say Defend the Atlanta Forest. They're just terms, at this point, that kind of all encapsulate: we don't want the forest to be destroyed because we don't want them to build Cop City. Although there are people who- camping out in the forest- who may even be a part of the Stop Cop City slogan, that really would not care anymore if the trees were... if they just moved it somewhere else. Right? So that's why I said they're just terms. They don't necessarily capture a political ideology, necessarily.
[00:38:47] And I think that is true about this movement because it is extremely autonomous and extremely decentralized. That means that there are collectives of people, there are individuals, there are organizations- all doing different things to fight against Cop City, but not necessarily under shared community agreements or a lot of the processes that folks went through under No Cop Academy. There might be a handful of folks who are working together who have their own community agreements, but it's not necessarily something where: If you're saying that you're an organizer, if you're saying that you're participating in the movement, you've automatically agreed to all these principles. And so I think that's something interesting about the movement because it opens up a lot of space for different tactics and different strategies. But it also leaves space for, I think Chelle mentioned this about No Cop Academy, some folks are going to be talking to city council people, some people are going to be trying to make deals with the mayor, and there isn't necessarily a unified group that could hold that person accountable.
[00:39:56] Different folks in the movement might drag them, might say that they're not really affiliated, but it's not that they've signed a piece of paper saying, I'm upholding these things and I'm holding these values because I want to be a part of this movement. And I think that's actually something that we found to be most important when these larger nonprofits are joining the struggle: like the NAACP, like the King Center, like all of these Black institutions that have a really deep history in Black communities, but have really been nowhere to be found when it comes to organizing that are now like, Oh, this is a hot button issue, I want to put out a little statement, I want to meet with organizers, but aren't necessarily willing to meet the demands that organizers are putting forth about those agreements; but already have relationships with the people they think are powerful and want to be able to leverage those relationships in the direction that makes the most sense for them at any given time.
[00:40:55] And there really isn't any accountability. There isn't any real way for the movement to "hold those institutions accountable", because we're not in relationship or in community with them, right? They've chosen not to be present in our struggles for decades now. So, there is definitely this conflict or need to navigate conflict interracially, but also interracially. Like, we are battling a lot, there's not a unified Black community here in Atlanta whatsoever, even in the movement space, and I think one of the reasons why that exists is because there is not a shared political ideology among Black people organizing in Atlanta. You have folks who are gung-ho around electoral politics, you have folks who are trying to do anti-state work, and folks want to put everyone in a coalition together and call it a coalition just because we might be coordinating on things, but that doesn't mean that there's any actual, genuine, shared North Star about where we're going. And I think that is what leads to things dissolving, or things going in different directions. Which is why I think it's been helpful in this struggle that things are so decentralized, that folks can find their people. It doesn't have to be an official coalition with ground rules and everything, but you can learn people's politics and decide that you're going to organize with certain people, you're not going to organize with others. But you can still push the work forward while the things are happening, the messier things are happening in the background.
[00:42:32] Chelle: Yeah, and I think that's kind of what's beautiful about the Black Stop Cop City Coalition is that, we've really been trying to do that work of finding our shared North Star. And I think what that's been for the group has been really wanting to engage the people who are going to be most affected. I think with the decentralization, especially along racial lines, is that... unfortunately until the Black Cop City coalition came in, the Black folks who live right by where the training facility is going to be built were not being engaged as much. You know what I mean? And that's for a lot of reasons. But now that that presence has been established there we're able to hear like, what does the community actually want? If this money isn't going to be spent on Cop City, what should we be spending this money on? But, yeah, I think... I think what I struggle with is just how disproportionate the resources are for different organizers. But honestly, Black folks are scrappy, and so we get the job done either way and put the bullshit aside. And so even amongst the conflict and the beef, we still.. We're still doing the work and Cop City isn't going to be built.
[00:43:57] David: So, yeah. Definitely appreciate you guys giving us some more of that context. I think, to Jasmine, to your point, I think from the outside- specifically not having been to Atlanta, I, 1) I don't know how easily can make the distinction between what's going on. It kind of from my end up here before I went to Atlanta in March I was like, oh shit, it's this giant ass... There seemed like there was that North Star, right? And so it was- it's interesting when you then think about- or the clearly... the diversity and tactics and strategy. Like, while it may look chaotic on y'all end, it does look very organized on the outside. Or at least it can- the way at least some of the media portrayed, because I think- to give context of with Soapbox, our thing with the No Cop Academy was documenting, was creating and challenging the dominant narrative; which at the time was, we need more policing, we need more cops, right? And so...
[00:45:02] Caullen: It's pre 2020. It's pre 2020. People didn't know what abolition was.
[00:45:05] David: I didn't either! I didn't either. No, no, no. But I think just naming that. Seeing the way y'all have been documenting as well; documenting yourselves and just- also the power now of Twitter. I think Twitter during that time was also- but just seeing how these platforms have also grown and how we take advantage of that. And so to bring that all together, I think it's awesome to hear more of that inside thing.
[00:45:30] And I do think that became very, very apparent when we went to Atlanta. Because we went to the forest and I was like, I'm excited, we're a variety of young folk from- or more former young folk, now they're like, young adults- to Atlanta. And I was like, okay, where's... it's a lot of white people. And I was like, that's cool, you know, shout out. And then there was some writing in Spanish that was like, not... like, I saw what they were trying to do, but I was like, hmm, okay, so who wrote that? Just these small little things. Then they did a poetry reading, which was fantastic. And there was one brother, myself, and then just a bunch of white people and I was like, all right, you're just there.. And then you start understanding, you start talking to folks. And then, really, then the transition where we went into the city where there was an action taking place- I want to say across the street or in the pavilion of Martin Luther King's... is it like a school? Or I'm not recalling.
[00:46:28] Jasmine: It's just a center. It's a center, like a museum type vibe.
[00:46:32] David: And so from there, we're hearing our Indigenous brothers and sisters sharing their piece and attachment to this, right. We're hearing young Black and Brown people making those claims. I was like, okay. So it was just interesting that once you're in there it makes a lot of sense Jasmine, what you're talking about. But from the outside it doesn't... it didn't feel like that. And now I think we've been paying closer attention to it. I think more things have been coming out. And so it definitely makes more sense. But I just find that so, so interesting in both pro and con. I'm definitely hearing the pros and cons, pros and cons. But yeah man, we need everybody. Deadass. We need everybody for liberation. But Caullen, I know your head must be brewing with thoughts and feels, any?
[00:47:17] Caullen: I like that, yeah. And finding those entry points was big for me. And I think that's the biggest thing with coalitions. I think with No Cop, even some of the youth organizers who are now staunch abolitionists, being like, Hey, we knew cops weren't shit, but we wouldn't call ourselves abolitionists necessarily, we didn't know that praxis, how that looked in real life. And thinking about like- I think about, we always say No Cop Academy is youth led and it definitely was, but it's like, we had The Jane Addams Caucus, we had some older elderly folks who were throwing down with us. We had folks from across the city- if you know Chicago, it's a city of neighborhoods, there's 50 wards. Neighborhoods are very stark: racially, economically, what have you. I mean all cities are kinda like that, but I think Chicago is very, very stark in that way. And so having solidarity across the city when this cop academy was in one neighborhood, but affects-
[00:48:02] David: everybody.
[00:48:03] Caullen: Black youth across the city, affects everyone across the city. You know what I mean? It's important to name, but also it's important to center where this is: not only in Chicago, but where in Chicago? And why this exploited, disenfranchised Black neighborhood? It's all intentional choices by the city; after they've closed down mental health clinics, after they've closed down a bunch of these schools. And so, it's... in talking about this, it's interesting how we want to bring everyone into the fight, but obviously we want to center who's most affected and most marginalized. And it's interesting hearing you talk about No Cop, Chelles, I think at the time it... we definitely have a- I don't want to say tight campaign, but we met every week and stuff, we had youth meetings, we had endorser meetings, what have you. But a lot- some of the stuff we learned as we went along, and some of those agreements for community and how individuals or organizations talked about the campaign that kind of came later a little bit. Also, we still wanted to be autonomous. We wanted people to throw down wherever they were if they see Rahm Emanuel on the street, yell at him and record it, put it on Twitter. That meant something. You know what I mean? That did something.
[00:49:04] What I've- it's been interesting in the past couple years, like, sit post No Cop and knowing how the city works more. I'm like, oh, these elected officials, they're just- I've always known they're just people, but like, they're just people. Like, I saw homeboy on the train and yelled at him, put it on the Twitter. It was great. You know what I mean? That does something, right? That matters. So, thinking about how we're seeing y'all's struggle, then how y'all are seeing our struggle, too. It's like, some areas, you're right, but also like, oh, actually, this was a little different, we learned this along the way, and we failed to get there. We have to be okay with that failure at the same time.
[00:49:34] But thinking about the multiracial coalition and how that, from what I'm hearing from y'all, is that it's new and kind of a little harder to do now. Where I'm thinking about Chicago's organized history: Fred Hampton, Black Panthers, Young Lords, Young Patriots, that was in the 60s where they were doing that. Radical poor whites, Puerto Ricans, Black folks, obviously, Black Panthers, were making that Rainbow Coalition then. And that was so controversial then, and folks have different opinions about that now, but it's much more accepted then. So we have this long organized history of doing that work, among a bunch of other things. And so it's like, I think No Cop is very much a way of building upon that.
[00:50:16] And that's something I've, not taken for granted, but didn't really center in this conversation as far as how that work shows up differently in Chicago, in the Midwest, right, in a blue state, in a blue city, whatever. We know those words in progressive whatever are what they are, but I don't think that matters in the Midwest versus the South. And so I just think about space and place and organizing and how that shows up. And how the lineages that we're building on do implicate how we move now and what we know to be true; how we actually practically move. I think all that matters. So something as far as the differences between them that I was really thinking about coming into this conversation; we've had a legacy of multiracial coalition building.
[00:50:57] And then on the similarity tip: we have Bobby Rush, we have a strong Black political class in Illinois. Bobby Rush is a OG Black Panther and has switched up many a time in Illinois. Most recently endorsing Paul Vallas for mayor. But he's been switching up, and so we have these betrayals. And they're not new by any means, but I think specifically in the summer of 2018, I believe, the Black Caucus in city council of Chicago- we had maybe no one on board initially. They weren't throwing down against the Cop Academy. They were all signing up for Rahm Emanuel, long history of machine politics in Chicago, what have you, what have you, what have you... And so they had a fundraiser before elections and No Cop Academy youth told them to their faces what was going on. And it was a huge thing in the street, and it was- we interrupted the actual fundraiser; and it was a beautiful moment, but also really sad to be like, man, these are your Black political officials... but all skinfolk ain't kinfolk, as we know.
[00:52:06] Excerpt from No Cop Doc: (tv click) "Which side are you on, my people?" Which side are you on? We wanted to have an answer; which side are you on? Is it students? Is it Black young people? Or is it the police?
[00:52:15] Man, it's a whole lot of political nonsense in there. I don't know how the fuck can they be in there while our people in there dying. She talking about- I called Pat Dowell out, she told me to shut the hell up. So fuck her, fuck everybody in there. Pat Dowell, Third Ward Alderman, our Aldermen. She told me to get the fuck up out of there, shut up. My concerns are no longer needed in there, so fuck every politician in there. Fuck everybody in there that's not trying to help my people and the people of this world.
[00:52:40] Back up! Back up! We want freedom! Freedom! All these lazy politicians, we don't need them! Need them! (tv static)
[00:52:47] Caullen: And so seeing that confrontation to their faces was really beautiful to see. To see youth take that up was awesome. But it's like, yeah, that is one similarity we have also been dealing with and will continue to deal with. And we saw a lot over this past couple months in the mayoral elections in Chicago, a lot of Black folks switching up and endorsing someone who's quoted a white supremacist, quite literally until now. So that's one of the things I have to think about as far as similarities.. If you want to continue on that train.
[00:53:15] Jasmine: Yeah, I think just in reaction to what you were saying, there's a lot of solidarity in this movement. I think I specified the word "coalition" because I feel like it has a very specific meaning around shared vision, in addition to just like a campaign end point. So there's a lot of solidarity, multiracial solidarity around Cop City not being built. That does not mean that everyone has the same politics around what the long term vision for Atlanta should look like, but there is a lot of solidarity. I think what is challenging, too, is that there have been, you know, white people who have been canvassing the communities near the forest, but it's very different when a white person knocks on your door and tries to give you information than when someone who's Black and represents your circumstance is doing it too.
[00:54:11] And so I think to Chelle's point, recently there has just been a lot more energy and capacity for Black folks to plug into that work. And again, these are not necessarily organizations- like Black organizations that are leading canvassing efforts. It's literally individual people coming together, being in community with one another, setting a direction, and executing on it. And so I just think that's been really important to show this new resurgence of more Black radical energy that is not captured by a particular institution; because a lot of the larger institutions, like I mentioned, that are Black are not really with the shits, they're not on our side. And so we're showing up to show solidarity with one another, people who have been scorned, harmed by different groups in the past wanting to do things in a way that's a bit more decentralized so that we... we're not relying or asking for permission. We can use the tactics that we think are most important at the time to push the work forward. And choose to be in the spaces that we want to be a part of.
[00:55:18] So Community Movement Builders, they're white people that we can coordinate with that are saying fuck Cop City, and have skills that they want to provide that we have an understanding of, that we understand their politics, and feel comfortable moving forward in this particular space with that work, right? But again, that's not a coalition. Like... that's just... We are focused on Cop City not being built, and this is the struggle that we're in solidarity with one another around. And so yeah, I think that raises interesting questions about when we stop Cop City, what comes after that in the Atlanta organizing space? Like, what does that mean for future struggles, that those kind of tight interwoven networks that we might call a coalition may not exist as robustly as it appears from the outside. But again, in the moment, I don't feel like that's detracting at all from our ability to build power in this movement. So I think that's just another interesting lesson that we are still learning but may take some gems from as we continue to organize around different issues as well.
[00:56:29] David: Yeah, and you know, I love to bring this to the moment and so thank you guys for giving all that context on what Stop Cop City has been and has been moving to. Where are y'all currently in that struggle? I know certain things happened earlier this week, but I'd love to hear how things have been transitioning for y'all leading up to.
[00:56:54] Chelle: Did you want to talk about the city council meeting on Monday? Were you there, Jasmine?
[00:56:59] Jasmine: I was there. I didn't stay the whole time because I did not know if people were going to come. I didn't realize it was going to be an "into the night" situation, so I had to leave, but it was great. Over 200 people signed up for public comment. 100 people didn't even make it on the list. And 100% of people who spoke were against Cop City. And that was our city council meeting on Monday, where the mayor introduced legislation to get 35 million dollars, I believe, of city funding allocated to the project. And again, while we're not coming out to public comment thinking that it's going to persuade these people to make a different choice, we do want to be able to demonstrate power. We do want to help radicalize people who think that if they come out and say public comment that it's going to change people's minds, so that when they see that it doesn't they are more open to different ways of organizing. And also to just help build this narrative.
[00:57:54] One thing that Andre Dickens, our mayor, has been floating around is that Black people want Cop City, that it's just white outside agitators who care about this issue. So having Black people from community show up in mass, on the record, saying that they don't want it, is something that regardless of what choice they make, they'll have to answer for. So that was pretty remarkable. Over seven hours of public comment. We also have a week of action- another week of action coming up at the end of June, early July. I believe it's June 24th to July 1st, if I'm not mistaken? So folks are preparing for what that might look like. But yeah, the fight is ongoing.
[00:58:37] Caullen: I love that you said, that narrative of "Black folks want it, whatever", is being challenged. And they're like, yeah, regardless of how they vote, whatever, it's making them have political consequences. Which, whatever happens, they have to answer for down the line and they can potentially lose the power that they want so bad, and I think that matters a lot. I think with No Cop that was part of the thing too. It's like, either you're voting against or for this; or if you say something about the Cop Academy, and whatever happens, we're going to remember that, and we're going to exploit that and use that. Especially when you get a media moment- or a moment like the uprisings, that come after the fact. And folks are like, Oh wow, you said that back then, and also you're still against this- that's the issue, we're gonna vote you out come 2023 type of thing.
[00:59:21] And I think, coming from a... I guess a cultural and media perspective too, I think those huge moments of mass gathering- whether folks are just coming on, wanting to make public comment, or going to make noise- and the city council, to your point of like yeah is that, are they still going to vote the money in? Maybe... but that matters, not only for showing elected people in power that we have people power, but also it makes this moment where people are tweeting about it, putting it on social media. Atlanta....
[00:59:51] Jasmine: Atlanta Community Press Collective.
[00:59:53] Caullen: Super dope. I've been learning and seeing what they've been doing too. That makes... it gives... it makes us reclaim the narrative, right? Reclaim and make our own narrative, as far as what is actually truthful, and what's actually happening, and what's actually helping people, right? And so I think those media moments, those cultural moments, I think are super impactful and matter a lot. And we can't... obscure that for anything that they are gonna do, or not do. And I'm also coming on the heels of like, creating the NoCop doc, and scourging Twitter and Instagram and finding these videos that other people did during the time. And for a lot of folks, with NoCop, it's like, going to city council meetings wasn't a thing people did all the time, right?
[01:00:30] And so, making that like, oh no, this is our city hall. We paid for this. This is actually our building. And reclaiming that in a way that feels really powerful is cool. And I think media matters in those moments as well no matter what the outcome is, but obviously the outcome of what we want it to be, what we're there for in the first place. David, what were your reactions to seeing the city hall?
[01:00:51] David: Yeah, I mean to me, I was... More curious- see, I thought it had been planned. You know, I think when we saw the vote, the final vote here in Chicago, March 2019, they was- organizers were like, everybody get your ass to city hall. And so to hear that, like y'all were-
[01:01:10] Jasmine: No, that happened. That happened... it's just, you know, who knows how many people are actually going to come through. We've done that. We've had mass calls before and you look around and it's like, okay... we called or texted a thousand people and there's like, 30 people here. But I think it was just surprising that we had been blasting it and hundreds of people, literally, in the middle of the day on Monday, people were taking off work to show up. Like, that is not necessarily the kind of energy that we're used to getting, especially for things like public comment. This was the biggest turnout ever recorded. So that level of engagement, I think was exciting, but also definitely not expected.
[01:01:53] David: Yeah, but I mean, in another way, though, it would be, I don't know. Like y'all clearly put- y'all sowed your harvest. You've been saying y'all texted thousands and thousands of people. So this is like, just because they didn't show up the first few times don't mean that that work, like, wasn't being done. And so to me, this is the fruit of your labor type shit. Where the nexus of the serendipitous of time was fuck it, everyone, we're all... we can all take off on Monday, let's go type shit. I don't know. So for me seeing that, I'm glad that you clarify that. Thank you so much, Jasmine.
[01:02:24] So to me, it was that, it was seeing all this work, all this effort, and boom here's that moment. That not only do the cameras like... not only do organizers feel supported and looked at by community, but it brings a conversation to this larger narrative to the medias and then allows us to combat. To y'all point of like, here are these politicians saying that Black people want it, like proof, this is literally proof. And so there ain't nothing better than that, to me. That's what I was trying to get at. So I was really really excited. And I think what that does...- we go back into those moments for our own lives and how energized we felt after, you know what I'm saying?
[01:03:06] And really, what I'm hearing, it's like, y'all definitely preparing for what's next. And so, I don't know. I think I was incredibly encouraged. I'm all about seeing creative signs and just like how- you know, it's different. Every space is different. And so it's nice to continue to learn, but also to see the love and support that the campaign deserves, right? And that everyone clearly cares about. It's not like, just two, three people giving a shit about it. It's like, no, it's clearly, yeah.. And these are the ones who could call off on Monday. You feel what I'm saying? These are the ones who could, you know what I'm saying? So it's so much deeper than that, but those are some of my initial reactions.
[01:03:46] Caullen: On the media narrative too- thanks for that, David. I feel like, Chelle, you mentioned folks are like, don't call it Cop City. And you're like, well, that's literally what it is. I think we didn't get that, like, organizers didn't get that with No Cop Academy, but we coined that early on to be cogent and very much our demand in a phrase. And so, you know, I think the police training facility is called like, Police and Fire Training Facility, *blabbering noise*, but it's a Cop Academy, it's what it is. And so we would see, legacy and community based journalistic outlets call it Cop Academy just because we made them say that. So I think even those things matter, the language matters for what this actually is; and we know it's not- they didn't make that because, you know, the firefighters didn't get enough money and resources- no, they made it because the police. They wanted to "reform police" by giving them more resources to not kill people as much, which somehow a building does that, right? That's why the impetus of why it was made, even before the DOJ gave their report to Rahm Emanuel, our former mayor. And so I think- I always want to center that as far as like, we made the powers that be change even how they talk about it... the language they actually use.
[01:04:51] As far as other similarities I've noticed with the two struggles was, only- even as eerie as like, 95 million dollars was the original thing for the Cop Academy, 90 mil is what I've seen with Atlanta, which is like.. And they also don't know how they're actually going to fund all these things. The corporations pouring into it, with AECOM, who tried to build the Cop Academy- did build the Cop Academy with a slew of organizations who are putting money down to build- to try to build Cop City. The diversity of tactics: I think the organizers, canvassing folks, talking to folks, doing their research; like, we had a big report released with all this data saying like, everyone in the neighborhood does not want this thing.. Here's this thing we print off that you can have and see all this is there. If our experiences aren't enough by how policing works in Chicago and has always worked, also we have this data that you say you care so much about. We know it's not really the case, but it's like, data, we have the data there, we have our experiences, we have the fact that this has never worked, we have that this is not a "fiscally responsible" effort. Like, if that's what you care about- you don't care about Black people's lives, cool- you care about money... also, this company is shit, and they're not gonna do a good job building this. It's gonna cost you a lot of money, because that's what you care about. So it's interesting, not only the diversity of tactics we use, but also all the reasons and all the entry points- anyone who's from a staunch abolitionist to someone who is like, Hm, this seems like not a great idea for civics, or for the city- like, you can all get tapped in, in certain ways. And it's hard for me sometimes when I think about that, or how we have all these reasons why this isn't a good idea, and it's still getting pushed forward. And they still build power, but that's why... that's why we're here to do that.
[01:06:35] Changing gears a little bit, I'm curious, I have one final kind of media or gaining popularity question: for us with No Cop... kind of early on in the fall, after the announcement was made in the summer of 2017 about the Cop Academy, Chance The Rapper came to city hall and made some comments.
[01:06:58] Chance The Rapper: Working very closely with Orr Academy, which is right down the street from where this proposed police academy is going to be at. The school, with just a hundred thousand dollars in three years, is about to make some transformative changes. It'd be awesome though if we could get them pools at their school, or a library, a new library, or a museum, or any of the things that are proposed in the budget for this 95 million dollar cop academy. What is y'all doing?
[01:07:29] Caullen: And it kind of got a lot bigger after that article. Nationwide articles were writing about it and stuff because Chance was there, right? And to Chance's credit, he saw on Twitter us doing the train takeovers and learned about the campaign, met with folks from the campaign, and did that and centered the campaign in it; which isn't always the case. But also like, that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the youth getting on trains, yelling about the cop academy.
[01:07:53] So I'm curious for Stop Cop City, like I said, I've known about it for a while and it's only gained more traction. I feel like from the outside looking in, if there were moments that... where the campaign got more traction or visibility, or people kind of bought into it who were living in Atlanta or outside of it. And what those moments felt like, whether they were kind of good or bad, or there was a mixed mixed reaction to them.
[01:08:18] Chelle: I mean, I think one of the unfortunate moments that really put it on the map was when the police murdered Tortuguita, one of the forest defenders. Yeah, I mean, it was just one of the most prominent moments in which we could show like, This is what the police do. And also just showing people that the police literally lie all of the time. Like, that's actually like their job. Their job is to lie and to spin public narrative in favor of themselves. And it was just like- I don't know. For me, it's kind of sad that this is the thing that had to happen for us to be like, Y'all... this is what Cop City is going to be, you know what I mean? It's about putting down opposition to the state. It's about continuing to repress Black folks. So, I think after that, a lot of traction was picked up by national organizations. A lot of people started following a lot of the accounts associated with Stop Cop City and Defend the Forest. Which like, you know, I think a way that we try to think about that moment too, is just by honoring their legacy. Which has also been kind of beautiful to see. Seeing how their family has been able to be supportive and getting answers, and exposing the lies that have been coming out about what actually happened in the forest.
[01:09:46] I mean, other than that, I think the week of actions and the week of connections have been like, too big to ignore. We have national solidarity happening with people on the ground. People who know that this isn't an issue that just affects Atlanta. I mean, we know that because we're sitting in a room together because y'all did No Cop Academy. If Cop City gets built here, it's gonna continue to get built out in other cities. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if New York introduced some legislation soon because Eric Adams...
[01:10:22] Caullen: fucking Eric Adams, talking like Morgan- Tracy Morgan.
[01:10:25] Chelle: Defunding everything in order to put more money into the pockets of the police. But yeah, I really think those weeks, weeks of connections, honestly, even just getting to connect with y'all watching that movie was one of the most beautiful moments that I've had. And you know, organizing with other people. But yeah, I mean, I really just think that being able to stand in solidarity together and cry and yell and scream; and also just, you know, host people to visit. They're kind of like little mini delegations to Atlanta, and I think that's beautiful even when the police are trying to spin this narrative that everything is outside agitators. When, like, at the end of the day, outside police are going to be using this facility. So, like, What's the difference? But I don't know, Jasmine, are there are other things that you're thinking about that felt like it's got it going?
[01:11:27] Jasmine: I think you hit it. Yeah, definitely them murdering Tortuguita put things on, I think, a national level. And then like you said, the week of actions just keep pulling more and more people in.
[01:11:39] Caullen: We were fortunate enough to meet Tortuguita's mother when we were in the forest, which was like... you know. I think- I do... I try to... no one's going to save us, right? Not electeds, not... you know we shouldn't hero worship any one organizer, and all the things we know to be true as far as individualism- rugged individualism in this country. But I feel like, especially when you don't know someone, and you see someone co-struggling somewhere else, like Tortuguita, who I had never met, it was... you know.. It's hard for me, at least, to not hold them up in some capacity. Or have them from the outside looking in as a representation of this struggle somewhere else that I feel connected to in a weird way. And so meeting their mother was like... I felt like not worthy. You know what I mean? It's just like, it's... and it was also during the day when it was our first day to the forest; and David spit his piece at the poetry reading, and we just felt- it felt like home in an eerie way, but in a really cool warm way. Other folks spoke and there was a lot of struggle; there's love in struggle there in the- almost said "in the room"- in the forest. So I just think about that when I think about Tortuguita.
[01:12:47] And one thing I wanted to ask you all about, we've been talking about the struggles, and why we're struggling, and how the large anti-Black, anti-poor, anti-people apparatus of the state is so entrenched and powerful; but we always fight back, and we lose, and we win, we make things better. What do y'all do for joy? How do you have joy in all this?
[01:13:12] Jasmine: That's a great question. I feel like it's not necessarily a consistent thing for me. I'm trying to figure it out, but I definitely like downtime. I definitely like hanging out with my people... in organizing spaces, but also outside. I have a lot of, just friends who are not like, I'm... consider themselves organizers that are like my real people. And so spending time with them. I'm a reality TV girlie, so just dissociating by watching other people's drama that ain't got nothing to do with me brings me a lot of joy. But yeah, and also just being in the sun. I'm super glad that summer's here; I'm weary about the heat, but I'm happy that it's not going to be dark at 6 p.m. anymore. So those are the things that bring me joy.
[01:14:05] Chelle: Yeah. I think for me, I've been really trying to collapse a lot of different pieces of my life. You know, I'm an organizer, but I also work a 9 to 5; doing that at the same time is really difficult. But I'm also a baker, and I'm also an herbalist, and I'm also a media consumer. So I feel like I've been spending a lot of this year trying to reframe my own sense of organizing. And I think I'm trying to delve a little bit more into cultural work, which I think is going to be really important in continuing to shift the narrative of like, we need police to police abolition. But yeah, I've been- I have a little pop up cafe, and so I've been trying to be the person who brings snacks to the movement. Really fun.
[01:14:57] Caullen: The movement needs snacks! The movement needs snacks.
[01:15:00] Chelle: And also just bridging our understanding of popular media narratives. Like for me, fiction radicalized me first, I'm not gonna lie. I loved reading when I was a kid and I feel like that was my first understanding of bigger world issues. And so I'm trying to pull together that love of that and other people who love that into real world stuff. Like, I've really been into this solarpunk shit. And so I've been trying to find ways of connecting, like, talking about solarpunk, talking about science fiction- and this movement, so that the movement is fun too. Like, it's not just doom and gloom. I mean, we know that because the week of connections pull us together and it's a lot of fun; but in between those moments, it's a lot of logistics and organizing and it's really tireless. And so I kind of want to make that feel less of, you know, tasks to check off your list, but more so something that helps you build relationships. So that's what I'm trying to be joyful. By pulling my hobbies into the movement.
[01:16:07] David: I love it. I love it. I think, the question wasn't for me, Caullen, but I think something that brought me joy was in seeing Tortuguita's mother and the way they speak. You know, I think the whole "get in where you fit in" works great, but I think... all of us have parents. Watching Tortuguita's mother speak of their unlearning, and their relearning is something that provides me hella joy. And I think a lot of the work that we're doing, you know, in this Zoom call, and abroad, is an effort for that, right? And so I don't know. I think that's really exciting to see, and just to be able to learn. And have more examples, right, like, in my pocket. It's not just Chicago. It's not just Atlanta. It's not just California. You know what I'm saying? That are going through different shits. But I appreciate y'all for taking the time to hang out with us. Clearly this is still going to be ongoing. So I'd love to give y'all an opportunity to speak to the masses, that if they still don't know anything, how can they get connected? How can they get involved? What's the best way to fit in? Anyone want to share anything?
[01:17:16] Caullen: Folks in Atlanta. Folks outside of Atlanta. Folks in Palestine.
[01:17:21] Jasmine: Yeah, I mean, you can go to StopCopCitySolidarity.org and basically see where the ops are in your local community that are funding Cop City and pull up on them. That's a way if you're interested in phone banking or just doing direct actions. We mentioned the Atlanta Community Press Collective, so you could send them some coins, because they are also just working class people who got a 9 to 5, that are doing movement journalism legit on the side. And like, yeah... making that shit work. That could use more resources.
[01:17:56] There's also the Atlanta Solidarity Fund. They've been holding it down on the legal defense side, trying to get folks out who have been charged with domestic terrorism throughout the course of this movement; could also use more resources since the bonds were like 300,000 dollar after the last week of action, so they could use some support as well.
[01:18:19] And yeah, and then if you're local to Atlanta, we will be doing a lot more kind of community events. We had a block party last weekend that folks came out to in community, hoping to do more of those in the future. We'll definitely be tapping folks in for the next city council meeting on June 5th. So you can follow the StopCopCity Instagram account for more information.
[01:18:43] You can follow the In Defense of Black Lives [@idblatl] Instagram account for more information about what the Black Coalition has going on specifically. And yeah, I feel like those are the ways to kind of stay plugged in if you're local, and also ways that you can support if you're not here in Atlanta.
[01:18:59] Chelle: I'd also say follow Community Movement Builders.
[01:19:02] Jasmine: Oh yeah. *laughing* I'm the worst plug for my own stuff.
[01:19:09] Chelle: And also set the tone for mutual aid organizing. Definitely follow them. And also if you're in Atlanta, I know there's going to be a lot more canvassing opportunities. We're continuously trying to assess the Black community's needs. What they want when Cop City isn't going to be built. And also just engaging them to get involved if they can. Yeah. Other than that- oh, I guess End State Atlanta [@endstateatl], we don't really be doing- we don't really be on Twitter. We have a website now, endstateatl.org. We're probably gonna pop off some work around integrating Black queer feminism into this movement work. Especially with a lot of the anti-queer, anti-trans bills being swept across the nation. We don't want Cop City being built because we're going to be targeted too. So... yeah, just going to continue to do cultural organizing work.
[01:20:10] Caullen: Love that. I love that you also mentioned to fund the media makers, who are doing some "on the side" type shit. We out here, too. I watched a webinar the other week, and one quote that stuck out to me, Jasmine, you said, "this project is extremely American." And I want folks to sit on that, right? I think in this work of framing and reframing and challenging narratives, making our own narratives and understanding, No... this project is American, and because it's American, America is everywhere, it's global, this oppression is American. It's not police violence, it's policing; it's inherent in what it is, and so that's why we do this work. And that's why this struggle goes everywhere from Chicago to Atlanta to Palestine, like it's Stop Cop City everywhere. And I think we have to diagnose the problem correctly and accurately in order to solve it, and I think that's been a reframing tool I've been using for several years now; with my parents, with other people, as far as like, no, no, don't be surprised when the police kill people, because they kill a thousand people a year; so if a day passes and they don't kill someone, that's the weird part. Not when they actually kill someone, or create harm in communities. And so, that's tragic and terrible, but you have to understand that in order to diagnose the problem correctly, and the solution is abolition and however we find that. So, I just want to center that narrative note that I've been grappling with how to communicate that and I understand in my own mind, for several years now.
[01:21:33] As far as like- follow all those things. If folks are listening- if you are listening from Atlanta or elsewhere, you're like, oh, I wanted to hear this, I want to know about Sop Cop City, but what is Soapbox? What's Bourbon 'n BrownTown? Just give us a little like and subscribe, you know what I'm saying? Follow us on all the things at SoapboxPO. Bourbon 'n BrownTown, no O's in BrownTown on Twitter [bourbonnbrwntwn]. If you want to learn more about No Cop Academy and what the campaign has been, if you want to watch the film at some point, if you want to download this toolkit" nocopacademy.com or soapboxpo.com/nocopacademy for more of the video stuff that we created during the campaign. And I think that's all I have, but definitely look at them episode notes, son. They're going to be packed. All right.
[01:22:16] David: You see Jasmine, Caullen is very good at plugging. *laughing* But again, thank you guys so much for joining us. Solidarity from Chicago. Much love to y'alls in y'alls struggle. We'll see if we can go down there again for one of them week of actions. See if we can bring some more of the homies down there, but really appreciate y'all. Much love to y'all.
[01:22:37] As always, and to all of our listeners, thank you guys for staying tuned. Keep in touch. Stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.
[01:22:46] Caullen: Stay tuned, stay turnt.
[01:22:48] David: And we'll see you next time.
OUTRO
(Soundbite from #StopCopCity protest in March 2023)