Bourbon 'n BrownTown

Ep. 89 - The Politics of Dress, Pt. 2 ft. Hannah Linsky

Episode Summary

BrownTown again invites Hannah Linsky, vintage stylist, seller, educator, and liver and breather of all things fashion to unpack the politics of dress. In part 2, the friends go macro and discuss fashion within current and historical social movements and its impact on policy and popular culture. From Scottish Resistance to the Black Panthers to Iran's Hijab Protest Movement and everything in between, we understand that dress communicates strong cultural messages. Though often created out of specific contexts, these stylings last generations, travel across cultures, and make us investigate our notions of respectability, autonomy, and mobilization. “If fashion resists power, it is also a compelling form of it,” (Tansy Hoskins).

Episode Notes

BrownTown again invites Hannah Linsky (she/her), vintage stylist, seller, educator, and liver and breather of all things fashion to unpack the politics of dress. In part 2, the friends go macro and discuss fashion within current and historical social movements and its impact on policy and popular culture. From Scottish Resistance to the Black Panthers to Iran's Hijab Protest Movement and everything in between, we understand that dress communicates strong cultural messages. Though often created out of specific contexts, these stylings last generations, travel across cultures, and make us investigate our notions of respectability, autonomy, and mobilization. “If fashion resists power, it is also a compelling form of it,” (Tansy Hoskins). Listen to Episode 85, Part 1!

Full Transcription Here!

GUEST: Hannah Linsky is a vintage stylist, seller, occasional model and avid collector. She lives and breathes fashion and loves playing dress up almost as much as she loves talking fashion. She is a recent graduate of the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, where she earned her Master’s in Art Education. Her work Revolutionary Dress (site, Instagram) centers around examining historical movements through the lens of dress.

"Past social and political movements provide a basis for conversations about race, class, gender, sexuality, ability and culture, while dress acts as a vehicle to move the conversations from past events to the personal, present and future. Learning about the power of dress in historical movements allows for a wide range of new material to supplement common subjects already covered in educational spaces. It opens up space for discussions about social structures, culture and self-reflection."  -RevDress


Mentioned in episode:


CREDITS: Intro soundbite from Hoda Katebi on WGN-TV. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles. Episode photo by Hannah Linsky.



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Episode Transcription

BrownTown again invites Hannah Linsky, vintage stylist, seller, educator, and liver and breather of all things fashion to unpack the politics of dress. In part 2, the friends go macro and discuss fashion within current and historical social movements and its impact on policy and popular culture. From Scottish Resistance to the Black Panthers to Iran's Hijab Protest Movement and everything in between, we understand that dress communicates strong cultural messages. Though often created out of specific contexts, these stylings last generations, travel across cultures, and make us investigate our notions of respectability, autonomy, and mobilization. “If fashion resists power, it is also a compelling form of it,” (Tansy Hoskins).


(Intro soundbite from Hoda Katebi on WGN-TV)

[00:00:51] Interviewer: I am curious as a fashion blogger, how you think fashion influences all of this? So I'm- we were looking back at some pictures in Iran and how cosmopolitan some of the major cities were back before 1979- the revolution. 

[00:01:05] Hoda Katebi: Yeah. I think these photos being seen out of context is always really decontextualizing what actually was taking place in the country. So the people who dressed in the western dress that we're seeing now are actually a very minority group of people. They were upper class people. So if you wore a hijab, there's actually a period of mandatory unveiling where someone could actually pull the hijab off of you. So it was an incredibly violent time and very intolerant. But we see these images of it as a nostalgia of like, oh, we wanna go back to this time. But we have to understand that this isn't actually how the majority of Iranians lived.


[00:01:42] David: I'd like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy out here in 2023. David, hanging out with you. Thank you guys, for listening. As always, I'm with my boy, Caullen. Dude, how you doing today? 

[00:01:55] Caullen: I am doing decent. 

[00:01:58] David: *laughing* you heard that pitch? Y'all heard that pitch, how it went up?

[00:02:02] Caullen: It was a thinking pitch, you know what I'm saying? It's funny cause I'll say, I'll answer like, how are you doing like that, folks are like, oh, you okay? And I'm like, yeah, actually I am okay, that's why I took some time to give you an answer with that weird nuanced pitch type thing. I think folks are just used to hearing, yeah, I'm good. How are you? And it's like, nah- how am I? 

[00:02:19] David: Tell me something. 

[00:02:20] Caullen: Let me check in. But how am I? 

[00:02:21] David: Be angry. Like, tell me something. 

[00:02:22] Caullen: Like, I'm fucking pissed right now. No, I'm decent. Been a good day. I was sick all of last week, two weeks ago. And was busy the week after that. And so I'm finally on somewhat of a good workout schedule. So my body's feeling back to normal, normal-ish again. I did my own class today and I was like, fuck, that was so hard. I'm sorry, y'all. 

[00:02:45] David: Yo, like, I make y'all do this. 

[00:02:46] Caullen: If this is your first time listening to B'nB, your second time listening to part one- I do fitness classes on the side. So that's the fun thing I do outside of the box of soap, ie: Soapbox and B'nB. But David, how are you doing? 

[00:03:00] David: Dude, I literally cannot believe- we've been prepping for it that it's been so long since we recorded, first of all. So it's like- and so I took into account, I was like, man, we're in February, how much shit actually happened? You know sometimes people are like, oh, time flies by. For me it's like, nah, generally felt long as shit. And I think in a positive way cause so many different things have happened. And yeah, so. We're excited to be here. We're in a new place, new space. And you know, 

[00:03:27] Caullen: David, where are we right now?

[00:03:29] David: Ooh. So for folks who don't know, Bourbon 'n BrownTown originally started by Caullen and I hanging out in our living room and sharing a drink. It is now in 2023, the same thing we are in Caullen's living room, sharing a drink. So- 

[00:03:43] Caullen: Caullen's office. We've leveled up. 

[00:03:45] David: Yeah, yeah. There's a little opening to a marvelous redone kitchen, and there's- yeah, the office components are fire. I gotta kudos all of your posters and stuff that you have around here, making it look solid. But Nah, for me it's like, we're grateful cause we're able to close that circle and I don't know, kinda make sure we, I don't know, make sure we're on 10 when we're doing this type of shit. And we enjoy it, thinking about how long we've been doing it, I don't know. It's always, it's not, we don't always have time to reflect on that type of shit. And so having that opportunity sometimes makes us more grateful for the opportunities to just be able to like, yo, we've been doing this for so long and we've encountered so many wonderful human beings and learned so much, personally. And I talk about this all the time on B'nB, it's a wonderful way to start engaging with shit. Cause this is literally just a step, right? This is- if you're listening to this for the first time there's definitely work you gotta do beyond listening. And you know, that's something we encourage and something we talk about. So definitely appreciate the moment. It's exciting. 

[00:04:38] Caullen: Yeah. That was beautiful. I love that. 

[00:04:40] David: And so, you being in this space, how do you feel about being in your office and the topic we're about to embark on? 

[00:04:46] Caullen: It feels nice. I think to your point, we started the podcast in 2017. It's almost been six years, which seems wild. 

[00:04:55] David: About to go on the sixth. 

[00:04:56] Caullen: When we live together in Wrigley, and now- we're temporarily in my office in the South Loop before we get to our own office, which is cool. But it feels very much similar in that way. It's homey. I ain't got shoes on, you know what I'm saying? But also new and fresh. We have our friend here as our guests, which will get to in a moment, who has been on the previous episode, part one. And we're doing part two, which I'm excited to get into. And this year we're planning a lot: finishing old projects, but also brainstorming what do we want to do next type of thing. And also thinking what Soapbox is gonna be in this next several years. And same with B'nB. And so it feels very, to your point, full circle in the way that we're literally in a similar physical spaces, but then we're embarking on new physical spaces and new relationships and old relationships too.

[00:05:50] So it's like the "both/and" of life. And how we've built relationships over the past several years. And so it feels really cool. And on that, I think part of what we do is so relationship heavy, which- 

[00:06:08] David: people, yeah. 

[00:06:09] Caullen: Lot comes with that. And we all are very excited about the things we talk about. And so today, going into Politics of Dress Part Two. This was like semi- planned? In the original conversation we just talked about so much and really got into the nuances of our upbringing, and our identity, and our power privilege and oppression, and how that codified into how we dressed and thought about ourselves. We didn't almost leave space for the macro level stuff that everybody was really excited about. And leaning into our guest's master's thesis and everything. And so the part two came out of a natural progression of like, just talking about so much, having so much rich stuff there, 

[00:06:45] David: so much on the table still.

[00:06:46] Caullen: And so I'm so glad we're able to do this again. And having our guest Hannah Linsky back. 

[00:06:50] David: Ooooh. *Pew, pew, pew* I'm gonna get one of those with this year by the way. The little, like, 

[00:06:53] Caullen: We're not getting one of them. 

[00:06:54] David: We're gonna talk about it. 

[00:06:55] Caullen: He's gonna be like a child. It's gonna go off every 10 minutes. It's gonna be awful. 

[00:07:00] So if you're listening to this and haven't listened to part one, I would encourage you to pause it *skrrt* go back, listen to part one, then come back to this one. But just if you did or did not, I still want to let you know what Hannah's all about. Hannah, our guest for today is a vintage stylist, seller, occasional model, and avid collector. She lives and breathes fashion and loves playing dress up almost as much as she loves talking fashion. She's a recent graduate of the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, where she earned her Master's in art education. Her work centers around examining historical movements through the lens of dress. Han-nah, what is going on? 

[00:07:39] Hannah: Hey guys, how's it going? 

[00:07:40] David: It feels like I just saw you yesterday. 

[00:07:42] Hannah: Right? 

[00:07:42] Caullen: It does feel like part one was very recent. 

[00:07:46] David: That's what I'm telling you. You told me it was October, I was like, hell no! No, we recorded in October. 

[00:07:49] Hannah: That's wild.

[00:07:50] David: Fucking bat shit. But thank you so much for being with us. You clearly love to talk fashion, so we're very excited that you were excited to join us again for another conversation and just to continue to dive into all the things Caullen talked about. I do think for a check-in for all of us, something I was thinking about is like, what's some style or garment or something you saw encountered in the world as you were growing up or just recently that you really leaned towards into, or you started maybe emulating, or you took into and modified your own way; regarding style and what we wear on a day-to-day. Is there anything particular?I think of a few things, but if anyone has anything immediately... 

[00:08:36] Hannah: I'll start. 

[00:08:37] David: Go ahead. 

[00:08:39] Hannah: My- the first thing that came to my head was my first style icon growing up was probably Avril Lavigne. 

[00:08:48] Caullen: Yes. 

[00:08:49] David: Love it. 

[00:08:49] Hannah: Early 2000s take on punk. She was wearing the tank top with a tie. She was in like, kinda preppy, but that like edgy-preppy-grungy vibe. 

[00:09:04] David: Little hole in the polo. 

[00:09:05] Hannah: Yeah, exactly. *Laughing*. Young Hannah was trying to emulate that for sure, but just did not have the tools. So, you know, I think that was the first time I remember thinking like, oh, I wanna dress like that. And you know, shopping as a 10 year old, not really having the options of dressing like a punk in that way. But what's making me think of it is, honestly, as I'm thinking about my style now, I'm like, oh, I see elements of what I thought was cool then coming through in my style now. So yeah, that's... Avril Lavigne. Early 2000s Avril Lavigne when she was full punk, ties when they didn't make sense, that was my first style moment. 

[00:09:51] David: *laughing* "Ties when they didn't-" 

[00:09:52] Caullen: But why didn't they make sense when they "make sense", Hannah? Who conditioned you that they make sense in certain situations?

[00:09:58] David: I'm so dead. 

[00:09:59] Hannah: I love it. I'm not- no shade- if you wanna wear a tank top and a tie, I'm sure there are really cool ways to do it now. 

[00:10:07] Caullen: You're like, no Caullen, there's literally no collar with a tie in, it doesn't make sense. Like, don't do that. 

[00:10:11] Hannah: Where does it go? What? 

[00:10:13] David: It just is there. That's awesome. Thank you, Hannah. Caullen, got anything for us? 

[00:10:17] Caullen: I've been thinking, and I'm sure there's a better example of this, but I think just- I mentioned this last episode as well, but early 00s hip hop, like large t-shirts with cool stuff on them. And I think the graphic tee has been, not always, but in my youth-to-now has always been popular in different ways. And so for me, I think early on in my adolescence, blending two big t-shirts, multiple shirts on it at the same time, with stuff on them it was popular and cool. It was a popular thing and I liked it, but I also started liking movies a lot and liking Black power movements and iconography and stuff. Not iconography, but Black power movement imagery and stuff. So I would blend the two and have the ironed-on Malcolm X shirt, but I made it, and it was a big ass thing, and Malcolm X and my oversized XXL t-shirt that had no business wearing. So it's like- yeah, I think...for me, you could tell a lot from where I was at in various ways of growing by what I was wearing. So I think just seeing Dem Franchize Boyz "Lean Wit It, Rock Wit It" and reading Audre Lorde, I was like, huh, how do I blend these two together? Yeah, that's what I thought of initially. There's probably better examples, but yeah. What about you? 

[00:11:39] David: I don't know. I think- so my answer has definitely shifted. I think Hannah really helped me funnel it to any type of individual that I was always like, man, I like all their shit. And there'd probably be Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, so it's not even Will Smith, it's Fresh Prince of Bel-Air

[00:11:54] Caullen: Okay. 

[00:11:54] David: Yeah. Cause that was one of the shows that I really engaged with. I felt like we were in the same age category too when that was going on. I couldn't relate to a lot of the aspects, but I loved the comedy and the heart in which the character of Will Smith lives and breathes and goes through it all. So like we've seen the whole thing a few times. So I was like him, but then I'm really thinking about if that really translated. And I don't think it did so much in the physical aspect as much as like, you know, Blessthefall, which is a group of emo kids from Iowa. With the long hair, all black, the long sleeves, Dickies shorts... 

[00:12:39] Caullen: Dickies, let's go! 

[00:12:40] David: So, you know, like, Converse, it kinda leaned into to that. So that's what was most manifested. And it was truly an act of rebellion against my parents. It's like, we would go buy me shirts, like dress shirts for my Sunday, I was like, I could wear black. *laughing*. All black with a red tie. 

[00:12:59] Caullen: A red tie. Let's go! I was just joking! 

[00:13:01] David: That was literally my high school photo. 

[00:13:03] Hannah: Did you have Vans on? 

[00:13:04] David: I don't remember, but I probably had Converse. 

[00:13:06] Caullen: Did it look like sneakers? 

[00:13:07] ("Vans" by The Pack)

[00:13:07] David: No, I was a huge converse person. 

[00:13:11] Caullen: I am curious cause, Hannah, we're friends, we talk on Instagram all the time and I love interacting with your posts and seeing things you put out in the world- especially stuff that I'm not as familiar with. But I remember, I don't know when this was, I think between our recordings, but you put out something asking followers, Hey, when did you discover your personal style? How are you thinking through that? And we've answered that question here, and listeners know us and we're... I don't wanna say we're unique individuals, but like, I don't know, we're very, particular types of people, David and I at least. So I'm curious, were... first of all, clarify anything I'm saying that's maybe not correct, but also I'm curious of what your followers fed back to you as far as what they said about their personal style and stuff. I wanna talk about that a little bit before we move on to the macro type shit.

[00:13:58] Hannah: Yeah! I think it was like beginning of January, I asked my followers some questions about do you feel like you have a personal style? Could you describe it? If you had to describe it in three words, what would those be? And then if you feel like you don't have personal style, why, or why not? What's holding you back? What makes it hard to develop personal style for you? And I've just been really fascinated by those questions lately. Cause I feel like only recently did I develop a personal style within, honestly, like the last six months, maybe, to a year. And I think something that it's helped me do is really curb my consumption of clothing. And so I'm just really interested in... How other- I feel like developing a personal style can be a way to act more sustainably and responsibly when it comes to clothing and fashion. And really curb- yeah, curb consumption and make us feel more confident investing in more quality items. And not just following trends in a way that can lead to disposal of garments, lead to us buying things we don't need- that kind of a thing. But yeah, I was just really fascinated by the response. 

[00:15:22] I think if you would've asked me two years ago if I had a personal style, I would've said yes. But now looking back on that, I would've said no, at that time in my life I didn't. So I think it can be really easy to equate, "oh, people say I'm fashionable", or "people say my outfits are cute", with, "I have personal style". And to me, those two things are very different. Personal style for me really has nothing to do with following trends or being described as fashionable as much as it does, like being in tune with our own sense of self and how we communicate that to the world. And so I think seeing people's responses and seeing who thought they did and didn't; and then "why" I think was really important. Because there's a lot of very legitimate reasons about why. I think we're fed so many trends that a lot of people are like, I don't know if this is something I genuinely like or something that I'm just hearing I should like in media, in fashion spaces; it's being served to me on all these websites that sell clothing, so I'm just assuming I like it cause I'm seeing attractive people wear it. 

[00:16:31] David: Was there any particular response that maybe surprised you from what you put out?

[00:16:42] Hannah: Umm, honestly not really. I think a lot of it was stuff that I felt like I've either had conversations with other people, or felt myself. It was a lot of, do I like it or is it just trendy? It was a lot of, maybe I don't see my body type or my identity in popular fashion, and so I have trouble deciphering what I like on myself. A lot of wading through self-confidence and self-love. And then also financially feeling like developing personal style is hard if you don't have the money to do so. 

[00:17:20] David: Or don't know how. 

[00:17:21] Hannah: Yeah, right. I think it's a lot about developing tools, also. And a lot of it's inward reflection that has nothing to do with fashion, but more about just knowing yourself well enough, and then like, how do I communicate who I am in what I'm wearing? And some people just honestly don't care and that's also fine. 

[00:17:39] David: But there's a reason they don't care. 

[00:17:42] Hannah: What do you think that reason is? 

[00:17:44] David: Well, I mean, I don't know. For myself, there was definitely a moment in time where I was like, I did not care what was on me. I was like, you know... and maybe...what ended up happening here is like, let's also think about in this period in time, I was given, I had a uniform, a work uniform, right? It was very particular type of work uniform, like tie and shit, vests and shit, dress shoes and shit. And so I would alternate between that... and then just wanting to be comfortable. And so to a degree I didn't care, but I was just like, I'm gonna go into work in three hours, so I'm gonna dress up in my dress shirt. And then I would go out- if I would go out, I would be dressed up like that already. So there was a period in time.. I'm thinking of folks who were giving you some responses. That's why I was just curious if there was anything like, not that shocked us, but it's not surprising that there was connections between all of these responses from things that... cause we all experience being uncomfortable and not seeing ourselves represented. Like, how do I know if this looks... I feel like that definitely probably resonates with a lot of our listeners as well. 

[00:18:43] Hannah: Yeah, I think it's really fun to wade through those things. I think it's fun... I mean, this is what I love to do, so of course I think it's fun. But for me it was fun to reflect on my own closet and be like, okay, I'm wearing these three outfits every week and what do I like about those? How do I reduce the clutter in a responsible way, but then how do I replicate the feeling that I feel when I wear these three things that I always reach for in my wardrobe?

[00:19:10] Caullen: What I'm getting from that, which I think is fascinating, and I won't go on this tangent cause I think it relates to a lot of things- but the responses you gave- the responses you received, rather, when folks were understanding themselves and intentions about their choices- or lack of choice- it made their practices more responsible and/or sustainable, right? In a way? And so if you know what you like to wear and you have what you're seeking out, you can make... you can be like, okay... I'm not just casually. 

[00:19:46] Cause I think when we're casually consuming or casually doing anything, that's when we seep into practices maybe we don't agree with, or aren't ethical, or don't align with our values cause it's easier, right? And when you're thinking about it and it's intentional, even if it's like.... I think anti-choice is a choice, but you know, people who don't care, if they know they don't care, then they can still make moves in ways that are aligned with their values. I think that goes through a lot of different things in life. But the way that happens through fashion is fascinating to me. I was thinking about that prior, too. 

[00:20:15] I think I've kinda moved in that same way. I was gonna wear a hoodie to this- Brandon Johnson's the guy running for mayor- went to his meet-and-greet thing several weeks ago. Shoutout Brandon. Brandon for mayor.

[00:20:26] David: Shout out. 

[00:20:27] Caullen: That's not a Soapbox or a B'nB thing. That's just Caullen, just to be clear. 

[00:20:29] David: And David. 

[00:20:30] Caullen: IRS. Who's listening to this. Anyway, so I was gonna go to this thing, and I was like, this is casual, whatever, I was gonna put a hoodie on and a jean jacket. My go-to, which I mentioned last episode. But I was like, oh, let me get the No Cop Academy hoodie on just to see if he says something. And he kinda had a nod. I'm like, all right, bet. So you're about it. So, but if I didn't wear that hoodie, and I was asking him a direct question, which I kinda did, how would I know how he felt about the Cop Academy? You know what I mean? So like, those little things are all intentional and they make moves. So... thought about that. 

[00:20:57] But to segueway us, 1) I would love for you to just give the audience another spiel on what Revolutionary Dress is. I know you mentioned it last time, I think we'll dive into that a little more this time. And I think... 1) I think it's super dope and I'm down to get into the nitty gritty of different movements and stuff, you dissecting and you've been thinking about since then. But also, intentional dress is part of that whole thing, right? So I don't wanna say anymore. Hannah, could you tell us what Revolutionary Dress is, and what you've been thinking about lately as far as that? Because that was a little bit ago, right? But it's part of what you do and think about, and movements are always happening and changing, so I'm just curious where your mind's been with all that?

[00:21:40] Hannah: Revolutionary Dress was born out of my Master's thesis in Art Education. Specifically molding my interest and involvement in politics, in social movements, but also my love of fashion. And throughout my art education masters, I was simultaneously taking fashion history courses and these education courses, but more than that, like, psychology, but also movement focused; very political minded. And to me, these two facets of the school that I was involved with meshed perfectly, but there really wasn't any overlap in those departments except me. So I was bringing those conversations from each class into other spaces. And I was met with a lot of blank stares, not because people disagreed with me, although maybe some did, but I think more just because people hadn't thought about it.

[00:22:48] And so that led me into this rabbit hole of why haven't people thought about this? Why aren't we talking about what we wear to young people? Why aren't we addressing that more now as adults? Because it influences so much of how we perceive each other, how we perceive the world, how we show up in spaces. Why isn't that conversation happening more? So, I think Revolutionary Dress was both a look at history and an answer to the holes I felt in fashion history curriculum, specifically; but also then pivoting it to people who aren't in fashion history spaces, because the conversation of dress is still important in those spaces also.

[00:23:29] And I think it's easy to write off conversations about dress as trivial. Especially when we're talking about politics or revolutionary movements or anything like that. I can see how people would think that what- like, historically what people were wearing is not the most important part of that conversation, and like, sure I agree with you. 

[00:23:52] David: Yeah. 

[00:23:52] Hannah: It's not the most important part for sure. 

[00:23:54] David: You right. 

[00:23:54] Hannah: But I do think it's still worth talking about. Because fashion and dress deserves its place next to revolutionary writers, or poets, or artists, or songwriters, or filmmakers. I think fashion and dress can be a cultural artifact in that same vein, but it often isn't approached that way or spoken about that way. And I could talk about why that probably is rooted in who is most interested in fashion, which tends to be those who are most marginalized: women, queer people, people of color tend to be the arbiters of fashion, and so it gets written off as unimportant. But I think what we wear reflects our own material conditions, our beliefs, our desires. And there's a lot of ways that the state, those in power, have controlled what we wear, have used what we wear as sort of cultural hegemony to influence our beliefs about each other, to divide us, visually. And then also alternatively, it's been a really powerful method of resistance throughout history, which we can talk more about. So to the skeptics out there who maybe don't even listen to this episode cause they're like, that doesn't matter, 

[00:25:12] David: you're like, clothed? *blows raspberry*

[00:25:14] Hannah: I think it really does, I think it influences a lot of how we perceive each other. It's one of the first things we look at when we're 

[00:25:22] David: you notice. You have to. 

[00:25:23] Hannah: When we're getting a first impression of someone. And all of that, all of those, first impression stereotypes or judgements we make about people based on what they wear, none of that is natural or instinctual. That's all been manufactured. We should unpack how that's been manufactured. We should have those second thoughts after that first initial judgment is made. Like, oh wait, why am I thinking that? What elements of state control have made me think that? Because, down to gender, down to class, all of that has been manufactured in actually really crazy ways. none of it is. Just, a byproduct of being a human being. 

[00:26:05] Caullen: It's not natural, y'all. 

[00:26:07] Hannah: Right. 

[00:26:07] Caullen: We hear natural in any sense. Just think about if it isn't natural... is it natural? Let our haters be our motivators. I would say. Speaking of that, I went to a Christmas party and 

[00:26:22] David: wonderful tangent. 

[00:26:24] Caullen: Christmas party, in December 2022. And this person was not there when I got there, but I was told after the fact that there was a dude there who was apparently a cop. If you listen to B'nB, we're not fans of the police. This person had a sweatshirt that said "Police Navidad", and had a picture of bank robbers and guns or something on it. And I was like, 

[00:26:45] Hannah: hate that.

[00:26:46] Caullen: Why? I just.... there's so many things I dislike about this. 

[00:26:49] David: Was he... Did he... was he Hispanic? 

[00:26:52] Caullen: I do not believe so. I don't know for sure. But contextually I want to say no. 

[00:27:00] David: I can see, well, you know, 

[00:27:02] Caullen: yeah, we can. I mean, that's another episode. But anyway, 

[00:27:04] David: We gotta take care of that human.

[00:27:06] Caullen: Willie Wilson's gonna take care of that human. Lot of election jokes this episode. *laughing* Municipal elections are a couple weeks in Chicago, for our out of Chicago- or untapped Chicago listeners. Thank you for giving us all that, Hannah. I really appreciate it. I'm excited to dive in. You mentioned, I mean, I think arguably all revolutionary struggles and movements across the globe, across history are in some kind of tension with the state. But if we're thinking recently-ish, especially with marginalized groups you mentioned, does anything come to mind as far as more recent movements of folks using dress in certain ways that are combating any state violence or oppression or what have you? 

[00:27:58] Hannah: Yeah, Iran is a great example. For those who are not following along, we are talking about...- this started, gained a lot of media attention at the end of last year. We're talking about Mahsa Amini, the hijab protest movement in Iran that began with the forced wearing of the hijab for women in Iran. And blew up into the hijab symbolizing both women's oppression and liberation, but also human rights as a whole in Iran against state oppression. I'm not the expert on that topic obviously, but I do think it's a great example of how an article of dress can go on to symbolize larger issues. This isn't just a protest about dress codes, it has gone on to symbolize both women's liberation, but also state oppression in Iran as a whole. And has garnered mass movement throughout Iran and protests and organizing and.... yeah. Did you have thoughts on that?

[00:29:16] Caullen: Yeah, I mean, I haven't reflected or seen as much lately. I probably haven't seen it as much because it's out of the media moment, right? But there's still things happening. I mean, everywhere all the time, but especially in Iran. Seeing Western corporate media cover anything is always like, *wretch*. But seeing them cover it and seeing folks we know or know of like, Hoda Katebi, would talk a lot about what was happening over there. 

[00:29:42] Hannah: Definitely follow her if you're interested in this topic. Or any fashion topic. 

[00:29:46] Caullen: Or just anything dope. 

[00:29:47] Hannah: Yeah. Any political thing, or fashion thing, follow her. 

[00:29:50] Caullen: Abolitionist. 

[00:29:50] David: Find her on the episode notes.

[00:29:53] Caullen: Yeah. Dope abolitionist, fashion organizer, writer, soon to be a lawyer. She's in law school now, whatever. So shout out. And yeah, seeing lots of stuff that she was putting out too, telling folks about what's happening, but also critiquing Western media, which she's been interviewed a bunch of times. And she's been interviewed before and they were asking her about Iran's nuclear weapons, and she's like, I'm a fashion blogger... Like, I have answered your question, but like, you don't ask white chefs about fucking.... NATO, 

[00:30:23] David: The stock market. 

[00:30:24] Caullen: You know, like what we're talking about? Anyway. We'll link that, so you know what we're talking about. However, following her and seeing other Western media talk about it was interesting because Western media likes to point at these examples like, oh, their women are rising, good for them. And like, poopoo Iran. It's like, y'all got your own issues suppressing women's rights in a lot of ways. So like, what's happening in your backyard? Or what are we doing here? And that's across the board.. That was an interesting moment seeing that. And I think we're in this interesting media moment where folks like Hoda and other folks would be on interviews and stuff, saying that- speaking truth to power in real ways to corporate news journalism. Being like, Hey y'all, y'all need to get your own house together before you start looking at ours. But one thing, just being a cishet dude, not Muslim, not living in the Middle East, and just reading and knowing folks who have fam out there and organized out there and do different things, being away from it, hearing a lot about folks who choose to wear the hijab and folks who don't. But this being about choice. And not being a woman, don't have that experience, but a lot of what we see, what we've seen with this more current wave of feminism, is about folks can choose to have children, and cover up and as far as how they dress, and what have you. And other folks could choose not to have children, not to get married, or be poly, be monogamous, or all these things that so many decades ago would be seen as not okay in whatever fashion.

[00:31:59] It's about choice and it's about these things not being normalized... for anyone, especially for women that it's been such a normalized thing you have to do. And then there's gonna be consequences outside of that, that are oppressive and violent, what have you. Again, someone from the outside, outside, outside looking in, trying to be respectful and understand all the nuances there and stuff as well, was big for Caullen looking at that and seeing different messages from various people, media outlets about it. And a lot of this boils down to choice when we talk about fashion or how we dress or what have you. And certain stakes are a lot higher in certain environments, and not for certain environments and/or certain identities and what have you. So that's what I got a lot from it. Thank you for the overview and we'll give more details and much more information in the episode notes. And hopefully 

[00:32:51] Hannah: Those who follow who know more. 

[00:32:52] Caullen: Yeah. Who know more. Don't take her word for it. But that's just for us talking about it right here, and in the context of everything else, that meant something. And that.... and folks are risking a lot just by what they're wearing. And that may come to a shock to some folks, but others that's very much a reality.

[00:33:13] Hannah: Yeah. I think, simultaneously while this is happening- compulsory hijab wearing is happening in Iran, in France there's the direct opposite happening. There is a push for secularism to the point where people can't express religious beliefs by wearing a hijab. France is saying women can't wear hijabs in a lot of public spaces, and so we see both extremes. And Caullen, you're right, the answer is choice. The answer is choice either way. Freedom of choice either way. But yeah, I think it's interesting that we see both extremes happening in the current climate and neither is right in this situation.

[00:34:01] David: Is there any.... What was something that came to your mind outside of the Iran example when we asked the question of like, has there been anything in fashion that has currently been used or that you've seen or noticed as of late? 

[00:34:16] Hannah: I'm really fascinated by the conversations about what is masculine to wear, and conversations surrounding men choosing to wear skirts or dresses. Or non-binary people who present more masculine choosing to wear skirts or dresses, or heels or anything that gets coded as feminine, being styled or worn by men or non-binary people. And just, yeah, these conversations about like, bring back manly men. And as someone who is very interested in history that idea is very laughable to me because there are so many examples throughout, even just Western history. Like, we don't even need to..., culturally, still, today if we're looking globally there are so many cultures where men are, right now, wearing skirts and dresses because they're very practical, especially in hot climates. 

[00:35:20] Caullen: My balls is hot. 

[00:35:21] Hannah: Yeah! 

[00:35:22] Caullen: Uh, I need this skirt right quick. 

[00:35:24] Hannah: They're great for ventilation. And so, even if we're just looking at Western society, if you go back just a couple hundred years, the most masculine thing you could do was have on high heels and makeup and wigs, and men would bring those to battlefields with them. It was important for men fighting in wars to still have makeup on and still wear wigs. So I just...that idea of bring back manly men and that conversation about what is masculinity? What is a masculine thing to wear? I've been enjoying hearing those arguments as someone who understands the history better because it strikes me as a little funny. 

[00:36:07] But ultimately there's a lot of seriousness to it too, because our Western idea of masculinity is so fragile that there's a lot of trauma and violence justified against individuals who don't meet those standards or who choose to exist and express themselves outside of those standards. And there's not a lot of... there's not a lot of justification or backing for it the way that these individuals perpetrating violence believe that there is. So yeah, that was something that came to mind for me. Was this idea of gender expression and just how, even in recent history, our idea of what is gendered clothing has shifted dramatically. So why do we feel so stuck in the binary that we exist in now? 

[00:36:59] Caullen: We're all in a bubble in some capacity, right? And I feel like with that conversation too, I know it is happening. And I'll see stuff from Fox News or some really Right wing memes, I'm like, oh, People aren't laughing at this, and this is horrible and wrong, but also adds to violence and the belief system that uplifts these binaries and these myths of what people are in a really literal way is scary. But I forget sometimes the tools and the platforms that we engage in, like social media and memes and all that- I see certain things and talk to certain people. And I have a broad array of friends, acquaintances, but you know, I'm not seeing Nazi memes or like, super... Not, I don't wanna say even alt-right or anything like that, but just these very like, oh, how can men be men... that kind of- I'm not seeing that as far as like- seriously from people that I know and stuff.

[00:38:03] So sometimes hearing... just hearing that from you, and seeing little things I see here and there are like, Twitter trolls that... just... Tangent: Twitter trolls. 

[00:38:13] David: Shout out. We love y'all, please. 

[00:38:15] Caullen: I love y'all, but get some courage. It's always like, John8472d. It's like all these numbers. You never have an avatar. There's never any bio. If you're gonna talk shit, talk shit with your full chest, I'm just saying. Anyway. Seeing random Twitter trolls say stuff it's kinda shitty and you're like, huh? Like, oh people actually think that. And so sometimes it's a rude awakening where it's something I need to see or hear and engage- not an engagement, but like understand because that's what we live in. Right? And even if I don't- even if my role in all this is not to cater to those folks or engage with them, some folks it is. Maybe if that's not mine, just knowing they exist- it's a good reminder that we still have so much work to do in a certain way. 

[00:38:58] David: In comparison to Caullen, I engage with that type of mentality more often than I would like. In regards of like, truly what I feel is a lot of men who feel this way is 1) in a level of insecurity that they themselves will not acknowledge, right? As like, nah, dude, my definition of manlyhood is boxed into this thing, so anything outside of it doesn't fucking work. And it's, you know, these are also the same type of individuals who oftentimes lack the willingness or the want to stretch outside of that box, cause they're comfortable. And it's like they know, okay, I'm a man in this box...if I stick to these norms and regulations that I made for myself- or that, truly, the system created for me, and then I took these things thinking that I'm individual or whatever, and I boxed it into thinking like, okay... It's a frailty that I see often, and I think it's very difficult to talk to that type of dude. Cause it's like, dude, what are you scared about? That's oftentimes where like, if I've gone to that route, it's like, I ask, what are you scared about? Are you scared you're gonna be gay? Like, is that a thing like, you think you're gonna catch the gay? I'm just like, talk to me, fam.

[00:40:11] And so, I don't know. I think there's definitely a lot there. But it's good to hear that on the other end there are different types of challenges. And I would argue, I think at the end of the day, it's definitely an individual thing. I don't know if I said last time, about my glasses, I got them from the women's section. Did I say that last time? I'm just teasing. But you know what I'm saying? It's not cuz they're women's glasses. Like, what the fuck do glasses, women glasses? That is- what does it mean??! And these are cute. And I wanted them, I was like, fuck it, let's get them. You know what I'm saying? So I think there's a lot of questions that we as individuals have to ask ourselves, as you mentioned earlier on. But I do think, to those brothers- to those people, to them fellas, just chill out. 

[00:40:52] Hannah: Because I think sometimes it's malicious, right? Sometimes it's this enforcement of the binary or whatever oppressive structure you wanna choose. But I think sometimes it is genuinely what you're saying David, of more of an insecurity or something people haven't delved into themselves. 

[00:41:13] David: Because they can't, they're not allowed to.

[00:41:14] Hannah: Right. 

[00:41:15] David: You go to church- 

[00:41:15] Hannah: they haven't been given the tools, or yeah, they're told they shouldn't. Or they've been given this one world. 

[00:41:20] David: They'll be shunned by their family. Like, crazy shit. 

[00:41:23] Hannah: But I was watching this TikTok of this guy who does historical costuming and dressing, and he's a custom tailor. And so he dresses in like 1800s, 1700s men's fashion, which is- 

[00:41:37] David: which he makes himself? 

[00:41:39] Hannah: Yeah, he makes himself and it's so cool. 

[00:41:41] David: I can't do that. 

[00:41:43] Hannah: Right!? It's a very niche skill. 

[00:41:45] David: And people probably like it. He probably has a following. 

[00:41:48] Hannah: I love watching him. It's fascinating. But it's, you know, he's wearing colorful silk ties and ruffled shirts and heeled shoes. And there was this one commenter who was like, genuinely not in a malicious way being like, weren't men at this time scared of appearing gay? And I just thought that was such a fascinating question. Because to me I'm like, no, what you don't understand is that this is the height of masculinity at this time. What this man is wearing is the most masculine thing you could have done in the 1800s, was powder your face or wear a wig or have on this floral silk top. So I just think, you know, some of it is that genuine, like, wait, we haven't always had the masculine ideals that we have now? Even within our own society, just a few generations ago they were vastly different. So yeah, I think part of it too is just, no one has given a lot of people the tools to discern like, wait, these masculine or feminine or whatever ideals that we hold very tightly now are very temporary, and always evolving.

[00:42:54] Caullen: Everything has a history to it. And we see things be cyclical. We see things be very different. And we see new age stuff that actually is- I don't know. What I appreciate about the work you do and some of the stuff that we try to get across at Soapbox in general, as far as like, either this shit is super, super new- what the fuck are we doing? Like: carceral systems, war, policing, whatever, we talk about a lot. Like this is- 

[00:43:25] David: maybe not war, but Yeah. I hear you. 

[00:43:27] Caullen: True. War, and the type of- 

[00:43:29] Hannah: military industrial complex. 

[00:43:31] Caullen: Post World War II. 

[00:43:32] David: Capitalism. I hear you. 

[00:43:33] Caullen: Eisenhower warned us. ... PIC, whatever. 

[00:43:37] David: Listeners though, y'all don't get confused. I hear you. 

[00:43:39] Caullen: Neoliberalism. Post World War II. We should do a whole episode on neoliberalism cause I feel like I mention it a lot. Either way. Yeah. Things that are new that we think are impermanent, and have always been here; then things that there's a long history and it has not always been this way or has in very different iterations. So I think... part of your work as far as what masculinity looks like, but also other iterations going back to movement, how things look and how things have been is super important. And I think you mentioned this in the previous episode about certain things we wear or think about now like: faded denim jackets, or leather jackets, or I've seen turtlenecks come back in vogue- for various reasons, that stuff has a history to it and some of that history is in movement and means something. 

[00:44:29] Hannah: Definitely. 

[00:44:30] Caullen: Do you mind speaking to- I gave a couple examples, but anything that comes to the top of mind as far as certain things that maybe are in vogue now or have been in vogue the past 10 years or so that have movement history to them, whether in this country or abroad?

[00:44:47] Hannah: Yeah, definitely. The first thing that comes to mind is denim... is very common now. At every- probably everyone owns a pair of jeans or some sort of denim item. And they can be very fashionable. It's a very classic piece. There's a lot of ways to wear denim. But if you go back just even to our grandparents' generation, we're not going back that far in history, just to 1950s/60s, denim was still both only a masculine item of clothing and considered and perceived as a very low class, poverty, poor-level type of clothing. And so one of the ways that showed up in movement spaces was during the Civil Rights Movement. The Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, or SNCC, was a group of youth who, in contrast to what we know the movement to be Martin Luther King, and his cohort wearing their Sunday Best and dressing very formally to non-violent, peaceful protests and movement spaces- which has its own context and reasoning and symbolism behind it; but in contrast to that, this group of young people, college-aged and even younger, took the opposite approach and started showing up to these same movements demanding the same things, but dressing in a way to symbolize something very different. Which was, if you show up to one of these actions wearing overalls and a white t-shirt you are aligning yourself not with this middle class, respectable 

[00:46:39] David: like, standard. 

[00:46:40] Hannah: Yeah. Like "respectable aesthetic", but you're aligning yourself with Black sharecroppers at the time. And the idea behind that was, until these Black sharecroppers receive the same rights that the wealthy white people have, we're not going to see equality in the United States. We don't want equality only if it comes at the cost of having to perform this middle class, white aesthetic. We want it as- even for these people who are experiencing the worst levels of poverty because of the systems in place in the United States. 

[00:47:17] So denim was a very radical thing at that point. It was men and women at these protests showing up in denim overalls and jeans and white t-shirts. It was Black women wearing their hair in natural styles and not relaxed in any sort of way. So there was just a lot of symbolism in denim that now we wouldn't think of if someone wore jeans to a protest it wouldn't really be thought twice about. But at the time, wearing denim was very symbolic of- until we can bring up the lowest of the low, as far as who is treated the worst in our society, we will not see equality. We will not see the kind of world we wanna see. 

[00:48:06] David: Yeah, I think that's wild. I was gonna ask you why denim? But then I connected immediately with the rebozo in Mexico and I think it holds that same power. Cause originally, rebozo, it's only a female garment, and it was mainly used just to cover. And so, then 1910 hits, Mexican Revolution goes on, women start jumping into this shit, and so the rebozo then became this accessory to part of their military wardrobe. And even then defining women in battle. Because we're thinking 1910, all militaries were sexist. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, I think seeing how an item like a rebozo, which in English is like a scarf almost? Like a thinly veil type of scarf that then can be used for different things. I don't know, that's just something that I connected with immediately when thinking of how these items are originally seen, and then now- like, I think Frida Kalo made it more popular through the world. And it became more of a symbol that I think, I don't know if it's lost its meaning in the way in which women in the 1910 who were in the military fighting beside their people wore it. But I don't know, that's something that I connect to it. And just thinking of other examples of fashion and how it is embedded in revolution. That was like a literal revolution. But I think there are different types of fights going on all the time. 

[00:49:33] Hannah: Yeah, definitely. That's an example. I feel like something that I've experienced researching this was- the things that it was easiest for me to seek out and learn more about were things that I had a foundational knowledge of from my own upbringing, which was obviously very western world centric and whitewashed in a lot of ways. So I'd love to know more about the example that you're talking about because it's... I don't even know how to look that up because no one has ever... I was never prompted with that history before. 

[00:50:08] David: And it's so nuts though, cause even for me, it's like- so once again, B'nB, these are opportunities for us to continue learning. It's always interesting to sit back. To Caullen's point, everything has history in it. But where does it come from? My grandmother always carried her rebozo everywhere she went. She'd be like, "mi rebozo...", like, we were walking out, and she wants her fucking scarf. All right, cool. And it's like, it's Mexico, it's not cold, you don't need this shit. But it becomes this... there's a connection to this item. And so from my understanding and the research that we've done, we can offer some of the links on the episode notes, but it's truly- it's this item that was oftentimes worn, women wore it. 

[00:50:44] And in 1910, creating that setting, that system, where women then have to fall into it; they would still wear the rebozo, but then it would become this sort of- there would be different uses for it rather than it just being this feminist icon. And so from my understanding of it, it then became to symbolize feminism in a very unique light. In a time where that wasn't the norm. Where most women at the time, to my understanding, had to even fake their way. They had to pretend to be men in order to fight type shit. And so to my understanding the rebozo is one of those items that, in Mexican tradition, has continued to carry a weight of its own. Cause like my aunt doesn't have- my grandma was probably that generation of, to your point, we don't gotta go that far, that the rebozo was a thing. My mom doesn't carry a rebozo around and stuff. But I don't know, it just... I'm curious like, does that history die there or does it continue? But I think that that leads us to another conversation for sure. 

[00:51:44] Hannah: No, that's fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. 

[00:51:45] David: Yeah, yeah. Hey. 

[00:51:46] Hannah: I need to read more about that. 

[00:51:47] David: Google's fantastic, bro. I'm telling you. *laughing* But yeah. And, I think it's so beautiful to look at, to your point, I think sometimes- and even Caullen's- you were mentioning this bubble, right? And I think with something like fashion, it's very easy to get into these bubbles. Very easy to just be used to seeing one type of thing. And if something breaks outside the norm, you either question it or you don't like it, you disregard it, and you fight against it type shit. Cause there's more options than those two, but... I'm just curious if anyone else has any other thoughts in regards to other examples that we've seen regarding clothing or fashion?

[00:52:28] Because it's interesting cause these last few episodes I've definitely been learning more and more that fashion is more than just the jacket and the shoes that I put on. And you started the episode with being like, you learned that you had- what your fashion is versus what people told you looked cute. And that hit. Because it's like... I don't know.... that's another conversation. But I'm trying to center us in any other ideas or any other things that we would like to touch on before moving forward in terms of how we've seen any type of fashion.

[00:53:01] Caullen: I'm curious, Hannah, what David shared was new to you, and there's certain things that I know you've explored in the Revolutionary Dress and I've seen or known or experienced. But I want to go back to- in building Revolutionary Dress, what came up that was new to you? What, either long ago or international struggles or international times of strife, revolution, or what have you, came up that was new or interesting to you that you maybe didn't know beforehand? Or maybe you knew a little bit of what you learned more about? 

[00:53:39] Hannah: Yeah. So just for a little background, for people who haven't heard me speak before- part of Revolutionary Dress it started with me writing this long overview paper where I was like, let me just find every example of- 

[00:53:58] David: let me graduate. *laughing*

[00:54:00] Hannah: That. But also, let me just find every example I can find and learn about that is where historical revolutionary movements incorporated dress into their toolkit. And so, the first paper I wrote was long as hell. And it was just like, 15 examples of like, fashion matters in politics and here's why. And it was a paragraph about each example. And I was definitely limited by like, okay, most of my knowledge base is American history with a little European history because that's our education system, so I know those examples the best. But what do I search to find examples from South America? What examples do I search to find examples of Asian dress and politics. 

[00:54:53] Caullen: You don't know what you don't know. 

[00:54:55] Hannah: Right! Like, I don't even know where to start. So that was very limiting and that's why I'm so grateful to hear- as I've shared this project with other people, people of other cultures have been like, wait in my culture there's this example. And I'm like, oh, yes, thank you. I can add it to my list, and add it to the map, and all these cool things. So that's been the thing I've been most grateful for is just expanding my worldview of examples of this, because I'm certain they're happening all over. I'm certain they're happening older than I can find historical record of.But yeah, it's just a matter of knowing what to search sometimes and the answers I don't always know what to search to find those things. So what I ended up focusing on the examples that I thought the most people- I didn't wanna have to give entire history lessons on... 

[00:55:48] David: hell no. we ain't got time. 

[00:55:49] Hannah: Certain moments, yeah.

[00:55:50] Caullen: Google it! 

[00:55:51] Hannah: What are things that I thought the majority of people I would be speaking to this about would have some foundational knowledge in? So the civil rights movement has some great symbolism in dress. And then it ties into the Black Panther movement, which has a very iconic uniform. And then I did the punk movement as well cause I thought that was less history class and more art and music. And- 

[00:56:17] David: you know, the Brits, they're there, you know? 

[00:56:19] Hannah: Right. So that was the other example I focused on cause I think culturally we all have touchpoints for that.

[00:56:24] Caullen: *laughing* what are you talking about? 

[00:56:27] David: I tried to see if I could get it in there. 

[00:56:28] Caullen: David just says stuff to test me to see if I'm gonna check him on it or not. I'm like, that didn't happen, what are you talking about? 

[00:56:34] David: No, but I love it. 

[00:56:35] Hannah: But yeah, those are the three examples I focused on just- cause as I was like, oh man, the history of Indian independence, like of India's independence from England has some great examples of dress, but also, I have to backtrack a ton and learn about India's independence. 

[00:56:49] Caullen: learn what happened. And then.. 

[00:56:51] Hannah: And why that's important. So I'm nowhere qualified to teach about that subject. 

[00:56:57] Caullen: Yet. 

[00:56:57] Hannah: Cause I'm also just learning about it. Yeah, I chose those three examples to focus on. But yeah, I think the thing I've been most grateful for is people's response to my work is, did you know about this one? I'm like, no, I didn't, that's awesome! 

[00:57:09] Caullen: Tell me more, please. 

[00:57:10] Hannah: Yes, please tell me more. 

[00:57:11] Caullen: It's participatory. And in a way, at least it's given you an entry into looking more into it. And I think- I've said this a million times on this podcast, but went back to school to get a master's in sociology. On this podcast we have folks like you on here who knows more about this shit, but we can bring up examples, talk macro about certain things, and understand it on a broad level. And I feel like that's why I appreciate and glean a lot from... not theory, but also just systems and revolutionary strategy and organizing strategy. Because it's applicable to a lot of different struggles and/or theory to a lot of different systems of oppression. Globally and throughout history, it's like, they're not always that much different. 

[00:57:54] Hannah: Yeah. 

[00:57:55] Caullen: But you know, I do believe theory without practical application is useless. So it's including those two together is helpful. And I feel like you know how it works, and certain concrete examples from education you've already had and dug into in this country or whatever; but also hearing folks talk about certain other histories or countries or struggles globally, what have you. You do the research, you understand what happened, like, okay, they did this. I can connect the dots easier cause I know how this works on a macro level type of thing, which I really appreciate. 

[00:58:28] And one thing that I glean from looking at some of the examples you mentioned, ie: we're looking at 1700s- Scottish Resistance, French Revolution; 1790s- Indian Independence; 1900s- women's suffrage; 1910s- flappers; 1920s- Algerian Independence; 1930s.... a lot of examples. It goes on and on and on. Plenty of examples and plenty of things we are not naming. 

[00:58:51] Going from the civil rights movement and, as you mentioned, respectability being a big thing and just a big point of contention, topic and thing in Black American culture, especially. And we look at long ago as far as how more important it was then, than it is now as far as just to survive. We see that not only in looking at literature from decades ago, centuries ago to now, but also in our movements. 

[00:59:20] Like civil rights movement, we think of MLK and SNCC, and then folks that- showing sharecroppers and folks, and then going to the Black power movement... Reclaiming Black is beautiful, wearing all black, wearing the black berets and the Black Panthers. Those berets being a nod to the French Revolution and how we're sharing our histories and borrowing from histories, which is super cool. 

[00:59:45] And then going to BLM from Trayvon to now, but especially the uprisings of 2020 to now, respectability being like, out the window, right? And really leaning into the fact like, no, I'm gonna be my full self. In all of my Blackness and all of my queerness. And all of my femininity and whatever I want to be. And you're gonna accept. And if not, that's too bad. I'm not gonna play that game. And thinking about this a lot, just being a Black man in 2023, and thinking about my parents' trajectory and their lives, and what I do now as a career and also how I show up in the world. There's always things we can critique about our generation now, and movements and stuff, always. And we also critique previous generations too. But we're standing on those shoulders in a lot of ways and it's like... and a lot... I don't know, you had to wear the tie in a certain way, and uplift respectability in certain instances cause in order to literally survive in certain ways; where it's like, now we don't have to do that much, we can really lean into throwing that under the bus and kinda doing what we want, more so than you could because you had to survive in- we still do, but it's in a more... in a different terrain. Very different terrain. And we have to respect that, and honor that and know that. And we can do that as well as critique those movements and their pitfalls and whatever at the same time.

[01:01:09] I think about that a lot, just in general. But also with dress, it shows up in that exact same way. And I think it's fascinating. So I appreciate it. Just digging through all your public work. And looking at the trajectory of the civil rights movement and the nuances there too, as you just mentioned. Then Black power and then BLM. It's been what, 10... a decade really for the broader movement for Black Lives? And even how within that, that's changed a lot. These things change, or stay the same, they build on each other and critique each other all in the same way. And that's all coded in how- what we're wearing, which I think is really fascinating.

[01:01:47] Hannah: Yeah. I think it's- what we wear is a lens to look at history in the same way we could look at music from an era, or art from an era, or poetry from an era. We can look at what people were wearing- and it's in some ways a little more democratic than a film might be. Because everyone can participate in it in interesting ways. 

[01:02:08] David: Or does without them wanting to. 

[01:02:10] Hannah: Right. Like, even if you don't think you are, you might be. You are in some way. So I think that's interesting. And I think one of the things I've taken away from this is, it's really easy to look back on historical movements or moments or specifically fashion choices of the time and apply our current knowledge today to those choices. And we should, and we should critique them, but also the relevance of what they were dealing with at the time and what was considered revolutionary at the time was very different. 

[01:02:45] Caullen: Totally! Yeah- girl! 

[01:02:46] Hannah: Than what we think is revolutionary now. Because we can definitely have a conversation about respectability when it comes to what Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement was wearing. But, at the same time, they were coming right off of very recent laws that were in place to not allow enslaved people to dress in the ways that they were dressing. To quote the law, "above the condition of slaves." So in their own time line, in their own parents' generations, Black people were not allowed to dress above a certain status level. So in a lot of ways it was very revolutionary for them to show up in media wearing what they were wearing. Which is important to note. It's not the only thing to note but it's... having the context I think is always important. 

[01:03:39] David: Yeah, I've seen Django. Know what I'm saying? 

[01:03:42] Caullen: What? Oh yeah, he wore the fucking- the blue suit thing. 

[01:03:45] David: Yeah. He walks in, motherfuckers looking at him at all crazy. He's like, nah.

[01:03:47] Caullen: Says, so you chose to wear that? *laughing* Cause they couldn't! 

[01:03:51] David: Yeah, bro, I'm telling you. And the thing I connect with that is like, so I don't know if you're familiar with the charro? You know on mariachi, right? (plays "La Bamba")

[01:03:59] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:04:00] David: So you know how they got that funky, like suit on? 

[01:04:02] Hannah: Uh huh. 

[01:04:03] David: That's a play off of the thing called the charro. And originally that was a thing that only Spaniards wore. And so it meant that you rode horses and shit. And so it wasn't until the Spanish Revolution- or Spanish-Mexican Revolution, that as an act of defiance motherfuckers would dress up in their own versions of charros, as war and et cetera. And so now the charro is primarily used by mariachi as a thing, but it's still a cultural thing then that was taken on by Mestizos or half-Spanish, half-indigenous human beings to take on. I knew that one. That was in my pocket. 

[01:04:41] Caullen: See, I didn't know that. Let's go! Go crazy. 

[01:04:44] Hannah: I love it.

[01:04:44] Caullen: Like, fuck you, Spanish. 

[01:04:46] David: Yeah fuck the Spanish. *laughing*

[01:04:51] Caullen: Spanish is a colonizer language, right David? 

[01:04:53] David: Yo. Hey, hey, hey. But umm, no man, I think this is so fantastic. We're probably gonna have to do a part three later. 

[01:05:00] Hannah: I'll keep coming back. Just tell me when. 

[01:05:03] David: Yo, say less. 

[01:05:04] Caullen: We'll reschedule eight times, and then we'll finally figure it out.

[01:05:08] David: But no, and so I've been really appreciating hearing from both of you. And I think everyone is hitting so many important aspects in finding that balance between history. The ability or the concept of being able to create one's own fashion doesn't just dawn on you overnight. 

[01:05:27] Hannah: Right.

[01:05:28] David: It has been a curation and cumulation of ideologies and things that also you took decisions like, I like, don't like. Cause I totally see the Avril Lavigne. You mentioned it earlier on, I see it, it breathes life, and I'm glad that that's a part of it. You know what I'm saying? So it is not like we have to come out here- cause to the point of, I feel we can be very harsh on all of our past selves.

[01:05:50] Hannah: Totally. 

[01:05:50] David: To be like, I didn't have fashion. That mother fucker had fashion. We could say that about multiple aspects of each of our individual selves. But I do think, Hannah, when they were doing your masters, Hannah did have fashion. You know what I'm saying? She was figuring out in her own way, shape, or form. And so, I don't know. I think for our listeners, definitely get in where you fit in, as always. But. 

[01:06:14] Hannah: And be patient. It does take time. Takes a lot of learning and unlearning. I wanted to acknowledge a theme I feel a few of us have touched on which is: fashion's ability to subtly communicate an idea, so that you don't have to walk into a room yelling it. But you can be wearing a shirt.. 

[01:06:34] David: Yellow ass shirt. 

[01:06:34] Hannah: You can be like, wearing a No Cop Academy shirt to a mayoral event and see if he says something about it. Like, you can... You don't- I think there's a power in being able to do that subtly, because sometimes it's maybe not safe to run into a room shouting it. 

[01:06:57] David: Or the pin game, bro. I think the pin game has also a lot, you know. Like, pins that you put on your backpack and your jacket and shit? Depending on where I'm going and where I'm at, I got a whole wall of movement pins now. It's like, alright which one am I gonna talk about today? *laughing*

[01:07:11] Hannah: I love that. 

[01:07:12] Caullen: Am I feeling like, economic justice? Am I feeling like... more feminist...

[01:07:17] David: I'm gonna start doing this- you know how instead of- how motherfuckers put lapels and shit? I'm gonna start putting little ones, something about it. 

[01:07:23] Caullen: Just like, one pin. 

[01:07:24] Hannah: But that's, and there's....there's a whole group of people who maybe can't be physically at a movement, but you can show up in whatever sphere of influence you are in that day and still show that you support it subtly through 

[01:07:38] Caullen: at the office. Y'all got nine to fives. I hear you. I see you out there. 

[01:07:41] Hannah: Right? Like you can have some graphic tee on, or- in movements of the past, maybe you are like- like youth across America were wearing black Panther-like attire. They were wearing berets, leather jackets, the gloves, et cetera. Even if they weren't physically in a city where that movement was happening. 

[01:08:01] Caullen: Like in a chapter and paying dues type shit. 

[01:08:03] Hannah: Yeah. It's a way to show solidarity without yelling from a rooftop that you are part of something. 

[01:08:10] Caullen: But when I think about pop culture, and movement, and dress, and getting to the mainstream moment, I think a lot about NWA. And there was also a documentary about this too. NWA, they're in Compton, California. That's where the Raiders were at the time. And so Raiders colors were white and black, maybe silver at the time, I'm not sure. But white and black. And so, home colors were all black, essentially.

[01:08:37] David: Some cholo shit, too. 

[01:08:38] Caullen: On some cholo shit. 

[01:08:40] David: No, we can talk about location of the Raiders and blah blah. 

[01:08:42] Caullen: Yeah, give it to me. 

[01:08:43] David: No, no, no. I mean, just like... so in my understanding the Raiders were- had a larger than most fan base of Latinos. Especially because it was California also cause like hip hop merged in with it. And I would argue that that's where you found that definition between the cholo. If you look at. 

[01:09:00] Caullen: David, what is a cholo? 

[01:09:01] David: A cholo, it is a Latino or often Chicano type of gangster. The cholo represents family. To me, when I envision cholo culture, predominantly west coast, we always associate with the Raiders. And it's cool that you connect it with NWA as well and shit like that, so, you know. 

[01:09:22] Caullen: And I wasn't much aware of that. They were all wearing black in that culture as well. And so, NWA wearing all black all the time, cause that's a part about hip hop. Especially this authenticity, and being real. And that's a piece of hip-hop culture, especially then. And so NWA rises in prominence, they kinda are the pioneers of this subgenre of hip-hop at the time. And they get super popular. And it means something. It means in your face. It means aggressive. It means being real. It means all this shit that, especially in football, particularly is popular: aggression, violence in a lot of ways. And so you see the NFL start adapting black colored versions of their jerseys on teams that don't have black as their colors. And then you see that bleed into other sports that don't have black as their colors start wearing that. Certain special events or special games and stuff. And it comes to this firebrand of- 

[01:10:31] ("booming merchandise is a direct result of hip hop. If you look at a NFL stadium before the boom of hip hop and look at it afterwards, you'll see the difference.")

[01:10:31] Caullen: Other sports teams, or other companies, or other just clothing brand have black versions of all their shit because it's cool. Because it means aggression. Because aggression is tied to NWA. Because they're showing it in your face, and there's that dialectic there as far as all the things about NWA and things start emerging out of Reagan's California. And Compton used to being white, and that turning Black because of disinvestment, and anti-Blackness, and capitalism cause neoliberalism. There may or may not be a paper and documentary about it called What's Beef?. 

[01:11:06] But this all has to do with politics, and oppression, and systems, and pop culture, and reclaiming- in all its flaws- reclaiming being in your face about it. And it rises to mainstream prominence and it bleeds into all these other industries. And everybody's making money off it because these couple Black dudes from the hood started doing it, putting it on a dope beat and people across the board started enjoying it and consuming it. In very literal ways with their dollar, but also it became a cultural product in a lot of ways. 

[01:11:40] (When I got to the NFL at retail, the business was about 300 million dollars. And when I left seven and a half years later in 1993, it was close to 3 billion dollars.)

[01:11:40] Caullen: And that's because of the Raiders just being all black. You know what I mean? So I think those pop cultural moments I think to me are super fascinating. And again, with football and the NFL, for some reason that's been a topic of discussion. But Beyonce's Super Bowl, February 2016, #### "Formation" and pseudo Black Panther gear. 

[01:12:15] And then races are like, ah, boycott the NFL. Ah, boo. Boycott Beyonce, she likes Black people. And it's all this weird racist shit. I'm like, y'all are boycotting Beyonce? Really? You knew who she was before the Super Bowl. And so Beyonce has this thing that- and we can argue about Beyonce and Jay-Z, not being the front lines of the movement type shit. Different episode. But she does this thing which is pretty dope, and how she's like, a global sensation, global superstar. She does this, which is an intentional choice, in using imagery and wear from a certain movement that meant a certain thing- 

[01:12:48] David: at a certain time. 

[01:12:48] Caullen: as far as Black liberation- at a certain time. This is 2016. This is- Trump is not president yet, but he's charging that way. So I think context and history, even if this history was a couple years ago, we need to understand as far as why this matters. And then a couple months later, NFL draft in Chicago- Assata's Daughters, F.L.Y.- Fearless Leading by the Youth, I think other organizations as well- they are protesting Dante Servin, who killed Rekia Boyd, who has been a police officer for several years after he killed Rekia Boyd. He's still on the force. He's A) not even fired, or not charged for sure, cause god forbid. Still on the force, not fired, and if he is...gets fired or leaves, he gets also pensions. They're protesting that, right? And so they wear the same shit that Beyonce wore at the Super Bowl. Giving a nod to the Black Power Movement at this protest against state violence against Black women specifically. And it's also tied to the underfunding of Chicago State University, which is 80-something-percent Black. And then students go there. 

[01:13:57] All this shit is tied together, as far as movement, liberation, pop culture, sports. And to me it's just fascinating linking all those things in a very local way in Chicago where we are. And organizations we know, and people we know that were there, that stopping of traffic on a very popular street where the police came and tried to make a fuss about it because it was so big and so obvious and salient that they luckily didn't escalate into violence. I think some folks were arrested in that time, but it didn't escalate into supreme violence. That means something. And we can and should critique pop culture all the time for all of it's flaws, whatever. And how it encodes values that we either don't hold or do and aren't proud of, but... it's just messy and it's nuance, and these connections aren't just there by happenstance. I think it's important to note. 

[01:14:51] David: I definitely think there's beauty in what you just said, Caullen. Because I think, oftentimes- and it's interesting that we started our initial conversation was like, what is something that gravitated you- and most of us named things that are within the pop culture sphere of the world. And so it's like, we truly understand it's power. Because my second answer to that initial question was like, a Bulls jersey. Like, watching people in Bulls jerseys because of what Jordan represented in the 90s, blahblahblah. And that connection to the Bulls then to the city, right? And then the city to hardworking motherfuckers. Like, Jordan mentality. Cause then Jordan is synonymous with the Bulls. So, I don't know. That's literally what I was thinking when you were talking, Caullen, about things that I now associate, right? Because I don't associate the Chicago Bulls, I don't associate with whoever the fuck this owner is.

[01:15:37] Caullen: Fuck all the owners. I mean- 

[01:15:38] David: It doesn't matter, but like, that's not who we think about, right? We think about literally particular humans who then they become this idea to us, and either motivate us or push us. And so there's a lot of people who bash Jordan for all the things he didn't do, right? But those of us who look at that as like a light of like, oh, Like, yeah, I rock- if I rock any- I don't rock teams, I guess is an example, right? Sports is not a thing. But the Bulls, even when I didn't watch the Bulls, I'd still rock a Bulls hat, Bulls sweater, you know what I'm saying? Bulls sweats or whatever. I mean, it's connected to that ideology of the city, and connected to the mentality of the...what it represents to be a Bull, you know what I'm saying? A Chicago Bull, type mentality. 

[01:16:19] So that's where I was wanting to take the conversation, in the world that is pop culture. Because that- I think... to some of us, Bey might not be an influence. But like, we love sports. Hannah, any other thoughts or feels on any nods from pop culture to today that you've seen? Or that you wanna shout out or uplift? 

[01:16:41] Hannah: I mean, y'all are bringing in some great stuff. You're bringing in a lot of sports references, and hip hop references that I can't really speak on, but I love hearing about it. 

[01:16:51] Caullen: And you got a master's. Look at you! Look at you! 

[01:16:55] Hannah: Thank you for bringing it up. I'm thankful for that. 

[01:16:58] David: I forgot. No. *laughing*. But what are some things that come to your mind?

[01:17:03] Hannah: But yeah, sports, that's great. 

[01:17:03] David: You're so funny. I'm so dead. *laughing* 

[01:17:07] You're like, the Super Bowl is this weekend, what? 

[01:17:09] Hannah: The Rihanna concert, what?

[01:17:11] David: It is the Rihanna concert, fo sho. 

[01:17:13] Caullen: Nah, fuck that. Go Chiefs. 

[01:17:15] David: Okay. 

[01:17:16] Caullen: I mean, not fuck that, Go Rihanna, but also Go Chiefs. Rihanna and Chiefs. *laughing* 

[01:17:21] David: Hannah, back to you. *laughing* Any thoughts or feels in regards to pop culture that you would like to uplift or that you've seen in your work?

[01:17:31] Hannah: I mean, I feel like a general theme that you both have touched on is like... a need to understand the history or the context in order to understand the power of a certain reference. If you don't have a foundational knowledge of the Black Panthers, or a visual of what their movement symbolized or how they dressed in that movement, you're not going to understand the Beyonce reference to that.

[01:18:04] Caullen: Right. And I'm sure a lot of fans did not. 

[01:18:06] David: Like, "oh my god, it looks so cool! It looks so good!"

[01:18:08] Caullen: "I love Beyonce!" 

[01:18:09] David: "I gotta get me one of them little jackets." You know, that's probably what people were saying. 

[01:18:12] Caullen: I mean, ugh god. I just hate it cause you're probably so fucking on point. 

[01:18:17] Hannah: For sure. To me, it just speaks to the necessity of understanding the historical context of what we're wearing. It's important to be able to understand those references to be able to understand the symbolism there, the historical context there. And also then how that applies to ourselves. You know, again, bringing it back to what we choose to wear. It's easy, like you said, to be the one looking at Beyonce and being like, oh, I need an outfit like that. Like, that looks so cute. And not understanding that there is a lot of really rich Black history involved in her choices behind what she's wearing. And yeah, how that can affect what we choose to wear beyond that. But yeah, I think in general when we've learned about these movements- there's a lot of things wrong with how we learn about things in school settings- but part of it is how they looked, what people were wearing is relevant to the conversation in a lot of these moments that we're learning about. And there are references to them constantly. 

[01:19:34] Another one that comes to mind is the first wave feminist movement of the 1910s and 20s in the United States. Feminists were wearing all white. And we've seen that all white uniform of feminist movements come into play in a lot of settings. Kamala Harris wore all white on her- on inauguration day. And that kinda plays into the co-opting of things. Because like, is that... 

[01:20:07] David: Ooh, talk to us.

[01:20:07] Hannah: Is that as feminist as we think it is? I don't.... you know, there's a lot to unpack there, but- 

[01:20:13] David: wait, cause- so for us who may not understand, what is the significance of all white? 

[01:20:19] Hannah: So the suffragette movement of the 1910s and 20s when women were fighting for their right to vote, they chose all white because the counter narrative to the suffragist movement was women who wanted the right to vote, women who wanted political power were seen as ugly and manly and- it was very much a very sexist attack. 

[01:20:46] David: Vilification.

[01:20:46] Hannah: Yeah. On like, oh, what would- 

[01:20:48] David: they're all witches. 

[01:20:49] Hannah: What would women hate the most? They would hate being ugly and perceived as masculine. So that's how we're going to portray women who want the right to vote so that women who are scared of being perceived as masculine don't want- don't fight for that.

[01:21:01] And so part of wearing all white was this idea of purity. We see that in like wedding. In the world of weddings as well. All white being this virginal pure woman. This ideal, you know, very white woman view of what femininity is. And so wearing all white comes from this like, oh, misogynist and sexist in the media are portraying us as masculine and ugly and vulgar and impure, so if we wear all white that goes against that narrative. Which, I understand at the time how that might have been revolutionary, but we've certainly moved way beyond that at this point. And women who are.... who are like..

[01:21:49] David: Kamala Harris 

[01:21:51] Hannah: and I understand historically referencing that is valuable in some ways. But- 

[01:21:59] David: So shout out Kamala Harris.

[01:22:01] Hannah: But at the same time their reasoning for doing it at that moment, like to demand respect because- to show that you are pure and deserving of respect is no longer where we're at as far as feminist movements go. As far as what we understand to be the concept of gender, what we understand that to be. I don't know. I think we see that playing out in a lot of historical movements. Kinda like, what was revolutionary then is interesting and important to reference and analyze, but we don't necessarily need to bring it into today because we have moved beyond it. 

[01:22:42] Caullen: Yeah. And I think I think that's very similar to my point I made earlier, right? It's like, you have to respect that oh, that meant something then. Like, I get it. Also, who was not involved in those choices then what was- how can we critique these movements, but also build off them as well? And like, this shit's hard and weird and nuanced and violent in all the ways, even within folks working for liberation.. And we gotta be able to talk about it and appreciate the advances that we have and privileges we have because of that. But also be like, hey, that was kinda fucked up. And like- Yeah, you mentioned a lot of that. So I think across the board we have to be able to do that. And look honestly at what we're doing now, and are we reifying those things in different ways that are more subtle?

[01:23:22] Hannah: For sure. 

[01:23:24] Caullen: That's just important. Cause we need everyone in these movements for liberation and transformation and revolution. In order to do that, we gotta be able to critique ourselves and previous movements, and unpack, and.... As you mentioned earlier, it's constant unlearning and learning, and then acting on those new learnings and unlearnings.

[01:23:43] Hannah: Mhm. An instance that I just wanna bring up that recently blew my mind- I'm reading a book called Dress Codes by Richard Thompson Ford. It's a great book about... a history of laws and policies that have guided how we dress. And something that I just learned from the chapter I'm reading is this- In the early Renaissance, at the birth of individuality and the first inklings of fashion as we know it to be during Renaissance in Europe, women started having more options for how to dress and choosing how they dress. And that really scared the church, and it really scared men in power. And so what they did was not only enforce laws for what like, "noble women" or "respectable women of the church" had to wear, but in order to further ingrain what was considered modest or respectable for nobility to wear, they then enforced the opposite onto prostitutes and sex worker women of the time.

[01:24:57] So like, if you were forced to wear something, legally they might say like, oh, this color skirt or this length of skirt is appropriate for women of nobility; at the same time, they were creating laws that said, if you are a sex worker or prostitute, you can't wear a skirt longer than this. Or you would be- like, you can't wear something that would make you be perceived as anything more than you are class-wise.

[01:25:26] David: Damn! Where was this? 

[01:25:28] Hannah: This was throughout Europe. There are multiple instances of these sort of laws that would restrict sex workers to what they wanted women to perceive as immoral dress. So like: excessive jewelry, sex workers were forced to wear a certain amount of jewelry. They were forced to wear certain colors, to wear certain kinds of skirts that nobility were then prohibited from wearing. And that was so that there was a clear visual divide "respectable women" and, you know, unrespectable women at the time. So, just going back to that original idea of what we perceive as judgments on people's gender, sexuality, class, et cetera, is so manufactured within us. To the point where the church and men in power at this time were so intimidated by women wearing certain things that it was like, no, only prostitutes are allowed to wear that. 

[01:26:28] So yeah, that was.. I could get more in depth in that. But that's just a very general overview of what we understand about, when we're looking at women especially, what we understand to be like, "moral", or "immoral" or "modest" or not modest, has literally been entrenched in policy and law created by men.

[01:26:51] Caullen: That's... 

[01:26:52] David: yeah, that's a whole other... 

[01:26:53] Caullen: the convocation is what gets me. I mean.... yeah. 

[01:26:56] David: I think what... like, something that resonates with me is like, I hear you as it being a tactic used for control, but I think oftentimes folks who are within that don't know that it is being used to control them. Like, I think of my- the cult church or whatever- it was mandated that women wear skirts at all times. Long skirts, and had to be below a certain... And if you did not, if you wore pants, you were a gentile. Blah blah. So it's like, even to today, I was hearing- that's why I was like, where was that? It sounds like it was in Cicero and 16th. You know what I'm saying? 

[01:27:33] But I don't know. It's just, it's nuts. It's nuts. And so thinking of both sides- because then I also think of the nation of Islam, right? Where they're like- it was within protocol to present in a particular fashion, right? Because of what it was tied to, men and women, right? But I think that's a whole other conversation. Like religion and fashion, I think is our part three. Ooooh! 

[01:27:59] Hannah: Yeah. I think what was not surprising to me was like, oh, of course they enforce certain rules about what women could wear. Like if you were nobility, or higher income, class, whatever; but I think it was- the mind blowing part for me was like, oh, they were also telling sex workers what to wear to further enforce what was considered immodest or immoral to wear. And that was really fascinating to me. They also- the whole other level is they also forced Jewish women to wear what prostitutes had to wear. So we could also get into that. And the punishments were, you know, you could strip a woman nude in the street if she wasn't wearing what was prescribed to her class or her status. So... there's all sorts of levels of violence in there. But yeah, I just- it's all manufactured is the moral of that story. It's all been prescribed to us. And we think of it now as more subconscious than it ever really was. 

[01:29:05] Caullen: That, or it's like, oh, these are norms that we don't like, boo. It's like, no, this was codified in policy. Like, really in the grand scheme of things, not that long ago. 

[01:29:14] Hannah: Right. 

[01:29:16] Caullen: And like, dress codes in schools- we don't really think of as the same as what you're talking about, but like, oh no, are very, very similar. 

[01:29:24] Hannah: Not that different. Yeah. Despite, you know, the hundreds of years between them.

[01:29:30] David: I wanted to end with a quote from your site that we have here. "Dress is not only visually stimulating, but also undoubtedly relatable. We know young people are already constructing their own understandings of identity through dress, at a time when identity formation is crucial for their development." I want to go.."Learning about the power of dress in historical movements allows for a wide range of new material to supplement common subjects already covered in educational spaces. It opens up space for discussions about social structures, culture, and self-reflection." And I truly feel that's what we did tonight.

[01:30:05] Caullen: Mmm. 

[01:30:06] David: I appreciate you so much for joining us. It's been absolutely fantastic. I don't know if we gave you the opportunity last time, but any shout outs to any of the homies? 

[01:30:14] Hannah: I'll shout out some books that I'm reading. 

[01:30:17] David: Shout out to knowledge. That's what we're hearing. 

[01:30:19] Hannah: Is that the same thing? 

[01:30:20] David: Hell yeah! 

[01:30:21] Hannah: Okay! Like I said, Dress Codes, Richard Thompson Ford. Tanisha Ford has written some incredible books and articles about, specifically the Civil Rights Movement, and dress of the Civil Rights Movement and its connection to politics; and also Black women and fashion and politics and soul. She has some incredible books whose titles I am forgetting, which is terrible. But read that work. There's a really incredible podcast called Articles of Interest that dives into a lot of garments, and also the history of garments and the context for them, which I think is really fascinating. And the last thing I'll shout out is a documentary called Punk Style?

[01:31:16] Caullen: Sounds like a thing that exists. Sure, why not? 

[01:31:18] David: Google Punk Style, fam.

[01:31:20] Caullen: We'll put it on episode notes. Y'all will see it. 

[01:31:22] David: If I apologize to. 

[01:31:25] Hannah: By the director whose name I'm forgetting, but the documentary's really good. It was a crucial source for me when I was looking at the politics of the initial punk movement. And also it speaks to, more broadly, how style can communicate political beliefs, et cetera. So those are my knowledge shout outs. 

[01:31:47] Caullen: There's a... no, it's a scripted series on the Sex Pistols coming to- not coming to power, but getting really popular during the punk rock movement. The age of Margaret Thatcher, which I feel like, again, to contextualize what's happening socially, what's happening politically at the time, whatever, whatever, whatever, as you mentioned in this whole episode; but I haven't watched the series, maybe it's trash. I think it looks good. But it's these- this popular punk rock group from the 80s in the UK, they were rallying a lot against social norms, whatever, whatever, but also the signal person at the premiere of that country was Margaret Fucking Thatcher.

[01:32:26] If you don't know, we don't like Margaret Thatcher, here at B'nB. Or Ronald Reagan. They were in cahoots in a lot of ways of conservatism, and really reshifting society, and unfortunately the globe in a lot of the neoliberal policies that we still are dealing with today. And so we think about conservatism and folks pushing back in counterculture and punk counterculture, Sex Pistols are a very good example of that. And pop culture, music, what they're wearing. They very much are encompassing a lot of that. So maybe the show's trash. It looks good. I don't know, I haven't watched it. But I just wanna name that as far as politically and socially what's happening at the time, and how we're combating these things that are very real.

[01:33:08] Hannah: Punk Attitude by Don Letz is the documentary. It's free on YouTube. You can watch it. 

[01:33:12] Caullen: Ooh. 

[01:33:13] Hannah: Very good. It's from a few years ago. It was much closer to the actual punk movement. It's very good. Would recommend. And yeah, it dives into the social political context of that time, which is really fascinating. And yeah, that's- those are my shout outs. 

[01:33:31] David: Well, thank you Hannah, so much for joining us. As always, it has been truly fantastic. We may have you back on. I don't know how soon. Pero ####. You know what I'm saying? But really appreciate you sharing. And thank you to all of our listeners. As always, if you don't know our socials, you gotta find them by now @BourbonnBrownTown. Twitter's a little funky. It'll be on the episode notes. We'll find it for you. 

[01:33:51] Caullen: Episode notes. Go look. And if it's your first time listening, or second time listening, listen to Hannah's episode, part one. Part two. Subscribe to Bourbon 'n BrownTown. Like, why not, you know, who knows, why not. And also, I'm thinking back- I get really self-conscious in these episodes. Especially when we haven't recorded in a long time. Like, fuck, what did I say? We are consuming alcohol throughout the conversation. 

[01:34:13] I am like, two neat 120 proof Knob Creek bourbons deep. I'm sorry if I was mumbling through stuff. It's probably gonna happen again. 

[01:34:22] David: He needs to apologize for himself. 

[01:34:23] Caullen: I just need you to know that like, we're sticking to the craft. 

[01:34:27] Hannah: This is bourbon. 

[01:34:28] Caullen: Bourbon 'n BrownTown. And! I've been thinking about this a lot more lately too, it's like we don't make our guests drink, and like, drinking is a normalized thing in our culture, whatever, whatever- but David and I drink, so like, fuck it, we're named Bourbon 'n BrownTown. So I wanna name that just to put out there for you first time listeners. But please listen to our shit. We do good cool things. Subscribe to Soapbox. Soapbox PO on all the things. This year's gonna be big for us. I'm excited. We're excited. 

[01:34:54] David: Yeah. 23 is gonna- 2023 is gonna be big. So make sure you're in tune. And as always, from Bourbon 'n BrownTown, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer. 

[01:35:04] Caullen: Stay tuned, stay turnt. 

[01:35:05] David: And we'll see you next time.