BrownTown again shares space with Sophie Elizabeth James, sociologist and podcast host, and Pearl Quick, farmer, pastor, and poet extraordinaire, in the sophomore episode of our recurring "Whiskey & Watching" series. BrownTown and guests deconstruct, recontextualize, and, dare we say, decolonize popular films, TV shows, books, and more! This time the gang unpacks "Passing" (2021), the Rebecca Hall directorial debut (for better or worse) and film-adaptation of the Nella Larsen novel of the same name. In 1920s New York City, a light-skinned Black woman finds her world up-ended when her life becomes intertwined with a former childhood friend who is living as a white woman.
BrownTown again shares space with Sophie Elizabeth James, sociologist and Unpaid Emotional Labor podcast host, and Pearl Quick, farmer, pastor, and poet extraordinaire, in the sophomore episode of our recurring "Whiskey & Watching" series. BrownTown and guests deconstruct, recontextualize, and, dare we say, decolonize popular films, TV shows, books, and more! This time the gang unpacks Passing (2021), the Rebecca Hall directorial debut (for better or worse) and film-adaptation of the Nella Larsen novel of the same name. In 1920s New York City, a light-skinned Black woman finds her world up-ended when her life becomes intertwined with a former childhood friend who is living as a white woman. The gang compares and contrasts the book to the movie, interpolates pivotal moments in the story and extrapolates what they communicate about survival, proximity to whiteness, navigating Blackness, and even the passivity of the very term "passing".
GUESTS
Sophie Elizabeth James is a political sociologist, project manager in the anti-human trafficking sector, and creator of the Unpaid Emotional Labor podcast. With a masters in sociology AND pop culture, she aims to provide nuance and levity to topics taken for granted.
Pearl Quick, hailing from the South Bronx, is an educator in soil science, disease ecology, genetics, and faith formation from Sarah Lawrence & Princeton University. Pearl created ‘Many Soils,’ a farming space where Black and brown youth come to learn how to decolonize their palates, look at the physical world, and grow food for themselves, their families, and their communities outside of the white gaze.
CREDITS: Intro soundbite and episode photo from Passing. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles. Originally recorded June 2022.
--
Bourbon ’n BrownTown
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Site | Linktree | Patreon
SoapBox Productions and Organizing, 501(c)3
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Site | Linktree | Support
[00:00:00] David: Yo. I'm David. And I'm Caullen. He's Black, He's Chicano. And together we're Browntown
[00:00:07] Caullen: and colleagues at Soapbox Productions and organizing a film and social activism nonprofit, specializing in multimedia storytelling for structural social change.
[00:00:16] David: Bourbon 'n BrownTown is an affiliate podcast of Soapbox, the pair's critical analysis of media, culture, politics, and everyday happenings with the Tasties of spirits. With the Chicago Focus, we impact current events, social issues, and give personal insight into various topics with the occasional help of the most talented and creative activist artists, filmmakers, academics, and social entrepreneurs.
[00:00:36] Caullen: So for this episode, sit back, sip something good. And enjoy.
INTRO
(scene from Passing)
[00:00:52] Hugh: Bianca and Co. are always raving on about the good looks of some Negro, especially an unusually dark one. Like Ralph Hazelton, there. Dozens of women have declared him fantastically handsome. What do you think? Is he?
[00:01:13] Irene: No. And I don't think anyone else would either. It's just plain exoticism. An interest in what's different. A kind of emotional excitement. Something you feel in the presence of something strange and, even perhaps, a bit pregnant to you.
[00:01:30] Hugh: And there you have it.
So, do you subscribe to the notion that our motives for coming up here are predatory?
[00:01:42] Irene: No. More curious, I should say.
[00:01:46] Hugh: Like your princess from Chicago.
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:53] David: I wanna welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. I am your boy, David. Finally in a studio- thank Jebus! With my boy Caullen, bro, how you doing, bro?
[00:02:03] Caullen: We doing okay. Kind of got to pee, so, that's hitting me right now. But it's okay- what it means is we've been doing lots of things today with the homies. And so we're recording this, we're feeling good, we've already talked a little bit about some things, let's take some photos.. But I'm generally feeling good. It's been a wild weekend- as listeners probably know, and David knows, I don't do fun things that often, especially consecutively. And so it's been like, three days of being out in the world. So it's been great, but I'm also like, I have so many emails to answer. How are you doing?
[00:02:36] David: I'm doing fantastic. I think now- I'm really excited, I know we've been talking about recording in separate spaces and I think when we're in the same space there's a level of comfort. I don't know, I'm super excited, super blessed. And you're right, to your first point though I'm glad that you out there. I'm glad that you're doing more shit. You should be doing more shit. And like, I probably do too much shit. So I'd say I do it for Caullen, you know what I'm saying?
[00:02:55] Caullen: We're trying to find joy, guys. We're just trying to find joy, alright.
[00:02:58] David: In this 2022 summer, And so I'm really glad to be in this space. For all of our listeners, this is Whiskey 'n Watching. Numero dos. Out here with the same people y'all probably have seen before.
[00:03:09] Caullen: We have sophie Elizabeth James, who is a political sociologist, project manager in the anti-human trafficking sector, and the creator of the Unpaid Emotional Labor Podcast. As well as Pearl Quick who hails from the South Bronx, Pearl is an educator in soil science, disease ecology, genetics, and faith formation from Sarah Lawrence and Princeton University. What is good?
[00:03:32] Sophie: Brraabrraa! I feel like after an intro like that for South Bronx.
[00:03:37] Pearl: South Bronx, yeah yeah!
[00:03:40] Sophie: I'm great! I'm always excited to be in a space with you all and just bouncing off your energy. So I'm just grateful for another addition of Whiskey 'n Watching, and I'm excited for what we're gonna dissect.
[00:03:50] Pearl: Yes. This is really dope to be in a space in person. With my people. This brings me so much joy and I am so happy to be here. And yeah, I came the right weekend.
[00:04:03] Caullen: If we all get COVID after this it's okay.
[00:04:05] Pearl: Oh!
[00:04:08] Caullen: It went there real quick, real quick. This episode comes out and then COVID goes crazy. So like, they recorded in person? I thought they were about wellness and people and community?
I'm happy just cause y'all are here in person for all the reasons y'all just named. It's been a wild weekend for Caullen, personally. But also, recording in person as- if you've seen and follow Bourbon 'n BrownTown on social media, I'm in my roommate's closet. And so I gesticulate a lot, y'all. I talk with my hands, I feel like I have to- like, I need space to be. My ego needs space to breathe. And so when I have that now, I feel like hopefully I'll be able to think better, and articulate better, and then vibe with y'all better. And hopefully that energy transfers to everybody. So I am very excited.
Again, this series I'm really excited for, that we started last time with Batman going into Passing. And since I'm new to Passing the film, but also there's a book as well, I wanna kind of pitch to Sophie, who can kind of table set this story, and maybe some of the themes that we're gonna dig into a little bit.
[00:05:16] Sophie: Yeah, no, that's really great. Nella Larson, the author of Passing, she's a lesser known author in the Harlem Renaissance era, and the only other novel or literary work that she has is called Quicksand. So you just buy the book Quicksand and Passing together and you'll have her entire cannon. But she is an author of the Harlem Renaissance and... so Passing is about two women who, from a chance encounter, they meet up at a hotel and they're confronted with the negotiations of them passing, being light skinned women in 1920s- well, 1927 America, and the decisions that come from that, and ultimately the climax of both their lives intertwining and the consequences of that for both of them.
And it has to be that vague because it's 85 pages of really intentional, sobering language, and it's really beautiful. It's my favorite thing ever written... besides the Bible- kidding, I'm an atheist. But it's just really, really great. I just love it and I'm just so glad that we're dissecting it today, and I hope that all made sense.
[00:06:34] David: For Pearl and Sophie specifically, when did y'all engage with this content? And how was that for y'all?
[00:06:43] Pearl: Oh, I first- Passing- I first read Passing 2012? 2011? I think. And that was, yeah, I would say right when I started touring with my documentary. Yeahyo! And I got to get a bunch of these, what my Godfather considered classics. And I'm really proud because he is a white man, and I was like, of course I'm gonna read Wuthering Heights, and I'm gonna read fucking Moby Dick, and I'm gonna read whatever- but then Passing, and I was like, wait, hello, good job! And it really transformed me as someone who obviously does not live in a world of passing, as a Brown-skinned woman. But also being siblings to really light-skinned people. Very, very light-skinned people. And especially my grandparents, and having my family- both from Panama, but look starkly different.
So it was really, really great to read something as- and I'm a, I get really caught up in language and literature, and it was so visceral. Like, I felt it. Like, it made me sick. Like at different points. That's how I read books. So yeah, it was around that time, and I was basically reading classics so that I could get prepared to go into really hard academia. And I was like, well, this is a perfect way to do it, this right here, this is gonna help me. This is definitely something I should be reading, less of these old white men and definitely this-
[00:08:21] Sophie: Dead white men.
[00:08:22] Pearl: Yes. So yeah, I would say like 2011, 2012.
[00:08:26] Caullen: You haven't read Marx?!
[00:08:29] Pearl: Yeah, I have, unfortunately.
[00:08:30] Caullen: Like a DSA bro. I mean, I have too, but
[00:08:32] Pearl: Yeah, right, like, you just have to.
[00:08:34] Caullen: I'm talking like a DSA bro. "You gotta read the theory!"
[00:08:36] Pearl: Yeah, and you're like, mmm, who's theory?
[00:08:38] Sophie: Durkheim! Division of Labor!
[00:08:41] David: That's so funny. And Sophie, you did mention, you gave us that wonderful breakdown of the book, how was it with you when you first came across it?
[00:08:48] Sophie: So I came across Passing in passing. I'm kidding. I am not a comedian. So it was 2012. It was Spring semester. Undergrad. I took 20th Century Literature and I had a white femme-presenting instructor who was doing her best michelle Pfeiffer work in Dangerous Minds, cut to "Gangster's Paradise". I hope that makes it into the episode. But yeah, she- and it was that similar model of where we spend 5-10 weeks on these dead white, irrelevant, oppressive, male authors. There's these classics that we have to- like all of our intellectual property will be birthed from their theoretical facets, or mindsets, and it's bullshit. And then literally 2 weeks on- like in the syllabus, it was two class outings where it was about, or centering Black or people of color, their literary works. And the one thing that this inept professor did was put Passing on the syllabus.
And I read it, and I was kind of coming- I didn't really have a grasp on myself, and so I think there was something I envied of Irene, one of the protagonists in the book. I think I envied her sense of self, as chaotic as it is. And I just got transformed into the story, and her connection with Clare and it just stuck with me. And every time I would reread it, I would find something new. And it's really timeless. And even in rereading it again over the weekend, I found new things that I could ponder on and reflect on. And so, yeah, it was 10 years. It just trumps everything I've ever read, and I can always go back to it. And it's just a really great- I just feel like I'm repeating myself, but I just really love this book.
[00:10:50] David: And then for Caullen, what were some of your initial thoughts? Not having digested the literature, but having an opportunity to see the film, both as a filmmaker, but also as a creative, what were some of those feels for you as you engaged in that?
[00:11:08] Caullen: I like this question for everyone; I think the context in which you consume or digest media, literature, whatever, I think is important. Like for y'all, it was in academia or like beforehand. But you did it kind of as an assignment, or a straight up assignment in order to get a grade. But also I think we're all kind of nerds to a certain extent, we enjoy being accountable for knowledge, and so that's a different type of way to come into it. Eventually finding yourself as well a little bit at the time. And for me, I didn't know about- I know Tessa Thompson's work and I think she's fantastic actress, but I didn't know about the film- didn't know about the book especially, until we talked about it a couple weeks ago.
[00:11:46] David: Yep, yep, yep, yep.
[00:11:47] Caullen: Like, oh shit, I gotta watch the movie. I'm like, it looks solid. And obviously I know what passing is short for, and what that has been for the Black community and even beyond that and globally, especially with melanated folks. But I didn't know what the book story was about, really until a quick synopsis and watched it this morning, most of it with Pearl on the couch. So unlike y'all, almost no expectations other than y'all thought it was great. So I figured it'd be good.
And I haven't watched a film- 90 Minutes then the thing is over, versus, like a TV show, in a while. Haven't watched a film like that in a while. And I think as I grow my career as a filmmaker, especially doing documentaries as well as scripted work, paying attention to- for the film at least, the cinematography. The really obvious, intentional choices they made. The writing and the screenplay compared to what the book may have been, but I haven't read it so I don't know. And just deciphering those choices and stuff.
And it felt to me like I was going back to my African American studies class senior year of high school. Which was super dope, and I really appreciated that class a lot. And we would watch things like that, and had to decipher them and things. That was my kind of point of my life of first coming to consciousness a little bit too. So it was awesome watching it, and watching with Pearl in real time, and us talking about things like, "save for later, save for later, save for later!" It's not only the thematic themes that were obvious and not so obvious, as well as how they got across certain things that, from our pre-conversation, seemed like they were in the book a little more, but they had to do through film and stuff. And so I enjoyed it.
I wasn't used to- I literally took the remote and tried to make the frame bigger, cause I'm like, "Oh, my TV settings are messed up. Everything's super fucking close and it looks weird to me." And I was like, "Oh no, this is how it's supposed to be." Then later I'm like, Okay, they're doing it intentionally, like whatever. And I kind of was like, I don't buy it. But later I was like, okay I kind of buy it. But it took me- but I'm like, through a filmmaker lens, like, okay, I know what they're doing and I don't think it's working. And then eventually it was like, I don't love it, but I get it more so. Or maybe I just got used to it, honestly. I think with books can be a certain way from jump. Perspective, who's telling the story, what have you. Movies can sometimes, but I think a lot of the times at that exposition phase they gotta give you something you're familiar with so you'll keep watching. I think they were like, Fuck that, you're gonna be close as shit the whole time. I'm like, God damn it, but then I kept with it. My eyes got trained. And I think it did work, thematically. So that was where I came into it. I'm glad we chose this. I'm glad we chose something I hadn't seen that made me kind of force myself to watch more good work, recent work, and work that deals with things that unfortunately are timeless in a way. And not just colorism, but just who we are as people; our agency, our power, everyone deals with, but obviously people who are oppressed, do more. So that's how I came into it.
David, same question back to you. I think it is important to know that myself, Sophie, and Pearl identify as Black. David as Chicano, right? Not that colorism is not a thing in the diaspora of the Latin world, but if you're new to Bourbon 'n BrownTown, which hopefully you're not, maybe our race is important in this conversation. It's "Bourbon 'n BrownTown", so you all shouldn't be that surprised.
[00:15:22] David: Yeah, and I think it was so interesting cause I had an opportunity when I was engaging with it, even the entering scene, our main character Irene, I'm in this space with her and I'm like, Oh, she's faking something. And so from the beginning, like with the word "passing", also, to be clear, when any person tries to pass off as white simply because of the lack of melanin, or-.. It was interesting cause like, makeup and other things that in this black and white world we're not seeing any of the blush, we're not seeing any- but like, it's intentionality that they're constantly looking at themselves, Right? Please by all means.
[00:16:05] Caullen: Pearl's getting some of that bourbon.
[00:16:06] David: Some of that bourbon. And so Caullen, just to answer your question, I think I was really excited to dive into something like that. I too was surprised by the way it was shot. However, I did, I enjoyed it, to be honest. I thought it was a little different. I was like, Oh yeah, motherfuckers trying. And then I had to- when I first got in and it was blurry, blurry blurry, and I was like, "am I not hearing shit right?" And so I turned it all the way up and I was like, "No, this is intentional. We're going into this chaos or blurry shit to focus" and what do we see first? We see steps going to and from space.
And so I was captivated enough where I was like, All right, this is what we're watching. You know? And with the gang being like, Yo, this is good. I was like alright cool cool! And so here I am sitting in the space, I'm like, okay, this is the person who's passing, this is the person who's trying to play off as white. And you know, my entire life, as Caullen mentioned, being Chicano, being a fairer skin, in some instances. But really then I was able to look at it more as my family and things within my own situations, such as my dad. And I think I've said it on BnB a few times before, but he crossed the border. He's incredibly, incredibly light-skinned. And the way he did it the first time, back in like 1982 or some shit, it was with a Bible, a collared up t-shirt, and he's like, "Oh, I'm a US American citizen", and they let him pass. And he did that to and fro, from Texas to Mexico constantly.
[00:17:18] Caullen: "I would like to talk to the manager please."
[00:17:21] David: And it's interesting when having those conversations that early on, it was like, "Oh, it's cause god was protecting me. It was cause I was trying to do this thing," and in reality... but even then it's like, "oh, But they knew I was Mexican."
[00:17:32] Pearl: No.
[00:17:33] David: It's like, well, maybe they did, but you're incredibly light, fair-skinned. Incredibly fair-skinned. You have these hazel-y brown eyes, and you have luscious curls. It's like, they're not gonna fucking think you're Brown, you know what I'm saying? And so-
[00:17:47] Sophie: I love the flex of the "luscious curls".
(laughing)
[00:17:50] David: But it's like, it's that, right? And so if that's the guise that you're under, well like, Oh, it's just the Lord's protecting me type shit. It's like, oh, you're not looking for anything else as excuses or solutions to this situation. Also, mind you, he's like 6 '2", very slender, so he's not what you would consider your average Mexican, which is probably like 5' 8", dark.... okay, 5'6", okay, whoa, Pearl's over here telling me to go down. Dark, black, thicker hair than fairer folks.
[00:18:25] Pearl: Let's talk about colorism in Central South America.
[00:18:28] David: But, and so just to finalize that the answer there is like, diving into this film, here I am being like, Okay, cool, this is the one who's it, and then across the street or- across the... the way there's this blonde haired person. And the black and white to me was so smart. Because I was like- you didn't really know. And I did not get that subtleness of, these are both people that are passing. I didn't get that until we were a little bit more, and then I was like, Oh, your husband's dark as shit. Like, okay.
[00:19:01] Sophie: He ain't purple.
[00:19:06] David: But even then, to someone like myself who's not Black, who has not dealt with passing or colorism in that fashion, I think it was so interesting, this black and white mantra that we see throughout. And then just diving into the shits. But it was exciting.
And I think to me, it's like, I'm definitely also a book person, so I understand the way in which movies- all the time- it's very rare that we find a film that does a book justice. And I think we can think of a few, but I think in this version, I enjoyed the film enough to be like, I think it did what it needed to do. And I'm curious to start diving a little bit more about these subtleties that y'all were seeing or feeling in comparison from the book to the film now. Cause we talked about both of y'all digesting this as literature, I'm curious, listening to Caullen and I, what was y'all's first feels or most recent feels, and then digesting the film a little more?
[00:20:03] Sophie: The first two things I wanna jump on is that in the book, the opening scene is this really great beautiful use of language of describing the- setting the scene, the weather, just the surroundings, similarly as the opening scene in the film. And Irene is- she is faint. So I thought there was a connection from how the opening scene is very blurry, and is coming into focus, and you're hearing the passing conversations. And she gets her bearings and goes to get the gifts for her kids is from the scene of when she's kind of taken in by all her surroundings, and she faints, and then that is what causes her to go seek some shelter at the hotel. The Drayton Hotel. And where she has this chance encounter with this childhood friend.
So I wanted to at least find some- or I guess explain the both opening scenes, cause they're very important. Cause you just know as a reader, and obviously as a viewer, that you are seeing it from her perspective. You're in her mind, you're feeling the fogginess of coming up from fainting from the heat and everything else. And a crucial moment in when she meets Clare- or when Clare makes herself known to her and reminds her that I've known you for a long time, is the debilitating fear Irene had because she did not recognize Clare, and she thought that she had been found out as a Negro. And the self-talk of her trying to figure out, do I run, do I stay? No, white people are simple, they wouldn't know how to pick me apart, or delineate if I'm a person of color if I'm passing. It is such crucial self-talk of setting the scene of just meeting this person, and what that- how their relationship unfolds in this new iteration of it. But I just wanted to set the scene for both those moments, cause they- it was pretty crucial. And in the- please read the book.
[00:22:06] Pearl: Yes! And to add onto that, there's this sense of passing by convenience, but also by isolation. So she, by herself, Irene, is doing just fine, right? This, the isolation feeling of, if I'm in a white space alone, though, I am separated from the Blackness. Which means I get to be here and quickly pass, cause it's convenient, cause I'm feeling faint, and then I can go back to what I was doing. But that second person adds this chaotic factor. And as we understand about Clare, she is nothing but not subtle; and so she causes a chaoticness in her world, of a small moment where she's just going to use her ability to pass, to just collect herself, and have this beautiful tea, and then go about her business. And that's isolation though. That's being by herself; she specifically chose something away, alone, by herself. And then this chaotic extra added like, "Hey girl!". ..
[00:23:21] Sophie: And then she pulls out the "Rene".
[00:23:27] Pearl: Yes! Don't hit me with the "Rene"!
[00:23:28] Sophie: And she's like, Oh, hold up..... And the self-talk, when she was processing someone calling her from that name that she's so divorced herself from, of how she negotiates when she passes or not was just... it was just so great.
[00:23:44] Caullen: I didn't think about this until now, but hearing y'all talk about it, especially in comparison to the book, but for Irene it was like, I'm doing this thing, I'm safe now, I'm feeling good, whatever... and then you're essentially found out. Whereas, and we'll talk about Clare I'm sure more, but for Clare, it was like, oh, thank god there's a connection to this life I don't have anymore. And I'm not alone in this thing I'm traversing.
[00:24:10] Sophie: And she wants to come back.
And I think that's really well put, because one of the main- there's so many salient themes throughout, you could see it in both the film and the book, but the thing for me where I'm just gonna come up front and say I don't trust Irene as a narrator, and I don't trust her decision making. Because the entire time she wants us to hear the story, she's wanting us to have empathy for her when she negotiates when she passes or not. But we also have to trust when she's wholly judgmental and dismissing of everyone else. So there's a part of her that she doesn't even- she hasn't accepted, where I think Clare does; albeit in a very chaotic and manipulative way, and how honest she is about it and how she navigates it, that there's a part of Irene that hasn't accepted it yet, because she's afraid of what that means to her and who she is. And so all that contempt is spilled into everything she sees.
[00:25:16] Pearl: And says. And does.
[00:25:18] Sophie: And controlling evil. And it's just like, Oh, so you're hating Clare for the very same thing that you're doing? But it looks different. Because in the book-
[00:25:29] Pearl: there's a superiority that doesn't make any sense.
[00:25:32] Sophie: Doesn't make any sense. But then there's also tiers to that superiority. Clare is full blown: white husband, he comes in calling her Nig, just fully submerged to where the need to come back, as Caullen alluded to, is now from seeing Irene that's what it pulls out from her. Because she's so lost in the whiteness. And for Irene, she thinks that, Oh, because I have a husband who wouldn't quite pass, or the pride she has when she says, "I have a dark son". In the book, it's one, and in the film you see two two. And the pride she has when she says that, as if I can boast about that. But you also have, in the book, it's called "a mahogany-like creature, Zulena." And you have a Black mazid. So what are we doing? And casually saying, Oh, well, I pass for convenience so I don't get bothered where I can go on the rooftop of the Drayton Hotel, or where I can go buy expensive gifts for my kids and not be hassled- but it's like, But baby girl!
[00:26:39] Pearl: But baby girl!
[00:26:39] Sophie: You're doing the same thing. So this contempt because she's unwilling to accept that part of her for fear of what it means. And that contempt goes on Clare, who's a mirror for her, but I feel like I just, bleehhh. I just unpacked so much, and I would love to hear your thoughts and if that made sense..
[00:27:02] Caullen: I wanna say one thing. I say this too much too, and make this comparison with everything, but it's true: Clare's a Republican, she's like, I'm bad, I don't give a fuck. And Irene here is a Democrat. Like, oh no, I just do it when it's okay..
[00:27:15] Pearl: But the exact same, with a pride flag on it.
[00:27:19] Sophie: BLM. Pride.
[00:27:22] David: That's so interesting, cause engaging in this as a non-Black person, I'm going in and I'm like, Oh, I like Irene, I fuck with Irene. And it wasn't until later that we started seeing, "we don't talk about race things in this house". You know what I'm saying? That's when I was like, Excuse me?
[00:27:36] Pearl: We don't talk about, what? Can I talk about how, and this is gonna be more personal to you, but, yes, as a non-Black Chicano, but understanding as someone who is a Black Latina, understanding that colorism. Thinking about this film, thinking about what we don't say and what we do say in the confines of our family. And how I know it when I go to Thanksgiving meal, and everyone is together and they use racist jokes and then say things like, Come on morenita, we're just playing. I'm like, do you know what the word means, though? It's not playing to me and you're not understanding me. And because they say things like, "we don't have those problems here". No, you do.
[00:28:22] Caullen: Do you live in the world?
[00:28:23] Pearl: Do you live in the world? And so realizing that- no, yes, okay, so you're not Black, but what is happening in our families is this idea of: when it works for us, I can't wait to be Bad Bunny and say "nigga", but when it's not working for me and I can use my Extra, my Extra light skin, then I'm going to step into that world because it actually makes more sense. It gives me proximity and it's convenient. But when I want my audience, when I want my fans, when I want my whatever, when I want my family, when I wanna seem down and with it, that's when I'm going to invoke every Brown ounce I have, like the "one-drop rule" is not real still. Like that one second of knowing that you may have Black blood in you doesn't already determine who you are.
Like Central South America, in the Caribbean, we are suffering. And at the same time we push those shits to the confines, and we pretend like that's only America's problem. So in the film, I think that the proximity to convenience and this understanding of: I'm going to do this, but I'm going to be Rene, and I'm gonna go home and be like, I'm so happy to be from Harlem, and to have a really Black ass husband, and Black ass kids. But when it's convenient though, sometimes I'm gonna go to the rooftop.
[00:29:46] Sophie: I think that's what got me too, because "passing" in its term, it seems very passive. It's kind of happening around us, or it's happening to you. But I think it's actually a very intentional thing. Especially with Rene, I mean, Clare's backstory of how when from her white father- and the Black mother does not get mentioned. Except for the fact that she's dead. Her white father dies, a blue-collar man, and she gets sent off to her white Christian aunts. And they told her, "we are going to..." what is it? "ignore the tar-brush". And in that sense, passing might have- it's still passive to Clare as well, because for her she sees it as an instinct to survive, and also to get a roof over her head for safety now that she's orphaned. And then she makes conscious decisions after she's married and she starts living her life.
But Irene- and I dunno if you guys got this, I don't like her- it's very intentional. To where she picks- and it's almost as if she lords over the fact that she can access her Black side and disassociate when she wants to. It's very meticulous, it's very intentional all the way up until the end to where her inner self-talk, and it's the devolution of her mind- which goes to the climax, which I know we'll get to- she's literally talking about how she's going to manipulate her husband into not abandoning her and keeping this picture of heteronormativity, keeping this picture of the nuclear family, and her duty and functionality as a wife, and a "respectable" Black wife- whatever that means. So there's something very intentional about passing, beyond the fact of the intentionality of violence.
[00:31:43] Pearl: And it's not Clare.
[00:31:44] Sophie: We're pre-Loving v. Virginia. If you're having interracial kids, it's via rape. And if you're in an intimate, loving relationship, you're not broadcasting it. So I think that there's these parts of passing, even though it's this very passive verb, there's so much intentionality around it. And it's very meticulous. And it's very conscious.
[00:32:09] Pearl: Especially when it comes to Clare. Especially when it comes to Clare, when it comes to Rene. Rene lives in this world of, I get to do it by convenience if I want, but also, nana nana naaana. You can't have what I have. You sad? You went too far into whiteness? Sorry, Clare, cause I'm gonna go back to my Black ass husband in Harlem, but I also I don't really wanna be here.
[00:32:30] Sophie: My Black ass maid, and I don't want my Black ass kids to know about lynching and race.
[00:32:35] Pearl: "We don't talk about race in this family"??!!
[00:32:37] Caullen: David mentioned that earlier on, I think, how do we- for the film that comes much later in the film. And it's kind of like, we're not surprised when we hear it, we're kinda like, "Oh, there it is!" Cause this whole time- this is a tangent, for me, the way they talk, I just- fucking, I'm just like, speak! Like, "Oh, and the, I'm sorry, with the dear. ... ... ...," and I'm like, Oh God, talk, say what you wanna say! Of course,like the framing, I got used to it eventually.
But, for me, exploring the homoerotic vibes as well as the heteronormativity as far as the nuclear family, and her upholding that in a certain way. And I think we have this idea of the nuclear family and the American Dream and all these things, and then we see we have Black folks starting to have something in the 1920s. For me, looking at how Irene navigates all of this, she's trying to conflate the two and saying, Hey, well in order to have what I want, have what I've been told that I should be able to have in Black America, but also that I know I should have as a person and as a human. Because even though I'm light skinned, I can pass, I'm still Black and I have to sacrifice something for something I maybe originally didn't feel comfortable with. But that's passing and making those choices in order to get what I have. Go to the white store whenever and have some gifts for my Black ass kids. I don't know if she's thinking about all those things, but since she has a seat at, what, the NAACP?
[00:34:14] Sophie: The Negro Welfare League.
[00:34:15] Caullen: She has a position with that, so she's involved in the Black community, you could say. I think she really appreciates and likes that, and wants that- especially as we see how she navigates control. But there's the- especially when the children get involved, and the dad's taking almost more of a role in the film, we start seeing him more and he is like, No, they need to know about the world. And they have different theories of how to raise their children, especially Black men in this world, which comes to a head. Again, I'm just talking about the film, as that's all I engaged with. And it finally comes to a head later on. But seeing him, I think the film did a good job of like, she mentions having a Black husband early on, and then we see him more and more and more. And it's, to me, it's a nice teasing out of seeing him, seeing more of his role, his thought process, and then how it actually engages with the world that she thinks that she can control, ie: their family, their children.
[00:35:16] Sophie: I have a question for you, but I also wanna have some context from the book. So in the book, he's actually much lighter. And it's just really funny with Larson and how she uses language. Like when we're introduced to the Black maid, she is referenced as, "and in walks-in a mahogany-like creature." Why are you calling this person a creature? But every time we talk about Irene, Clare, it's "ivory skin", it's "delicate fingers", it's "olive skin", it's "bright hair," it's "copper hair". Her husband is always referenced as "tan". And so he's actually much- he's actually high yellow in the book. And so when she says that scene of- when she says that line, which they kept it intact in the film, of, If you mean that in terms of passing, well, he can't necessarily pass, but it's not that he's as dark as it's- cause I think it's a very stylistic choice to have him be dark-skinned in the film and have her two kids be dark-skinned as well. Because his stance on parenting and Black malehood, I think comes across- and maybe I'm sounding very colorist right now- but it made a point, I don't know, in his dialogue.
[00:36:34] Pearl: I fully agree. They wanted him Black as fuck.
[00:36:36] Sophie: But in the book, he's tan with red copper hair. So when we're talking about colorism as a status symbol- No, but real talk, they are both in these brownstones in Harlem and at that time that was capital! We're not in the Harlem hood where we're Harlem Shaking like we're extras in a P Diddy video. That was fucking capital back then. In the Harlem Renaissance we talk- we have all these saccharin notions around it, but that shit meant capital, y'all! You know what I mean? There's still something very tangible...
[00:37:11] Pearl: And they needed it, they made it make sense. He needed to be darker-skinned because that's the only angry Black man that's gonna come from that. He needs to be angry enough, and they put a skin color on that. The reality is, he was very light-skinned and still mad.
[00:37:25] Sophie: And very colorist, because that was where his anger was coming from. Cause it's like, No, we're not THOSE Black people. And I could see how it would be hard for a white femme-presenting director and writer to translate that on the page. So she had to make a very stylistic choice of, okay, well he's just Black. And he's dark-skinned, with a white passing wife.
But in the book it was more nuanced, and it was very interesting of seeing the different ways that they're negotiating. And for him it was straight disdain: for America, for obvious reasons, how they treat the Black man, but again with this thing of passing, you still have this privilege. So there's certain things that you can skirt. You're not a neurosurgeon in the 1920s because you've gone through certain things that sharecroppers in the South are still experiencing at that same time.
[00:38:18] David: That was my question, so is he still a doctor in the book?
[00:38:21] Sophie: He's still a doctor in the book, yes. So actually the question- I went off on a really verbose tangent of setting context- but my question was, do you think it's fair of Irene's contempt for Clare? And it came off the page differently from the book, and it came off differently in the film. But I'm just really curious, I don't know, I'm really curious with that, of what you all think. Is it fair of Irene's contempt for Clare with her negotiations and machinations around passing too?
[00:38:54] Pearl: Yeah. I do think that- so for me, no, that's just my short answer. The reality is that Irene, Rene, as she is called, definitely I felt bad just because she projected so much. Not that she just projected it on top of Clare, but that so much was lost in herself. And so she- there was all of this projection because it was ripped from her. She refused to sit in it. And I get it, don't get me wrong, she had to do this thing. We, and even in 2022, so many of us have to do the thing. We have to do whatever we need to do to survive, but she wasn't doing it for that. Clare was doing a lot to survive, but Rene, she pushed a lot on top of Clare. And that's why I could no longer trust her.
From the book and the film, I would ask myself, Who am I supposed to see in this? I'm seeing it from her eyes, but I no longer trust her- and I'm gonna always bring it up, because I love women who love women- I'm always like, Baby, I can't trust you because I clearly see that you are going through some shit. That you are going through some stuff when it comes to sexuality and you're not willing to sit in it. And I don't mean like, yes, you have a husband, you have children. Could she have left him? Probably not. Or would she have? No, she was not gonna leave her husband. But it made her vicious. It made her vicious and lost and confused and so angry. So there was so much projection.
And the way that she would use words- see to me words- like, you know your mama used to always say like, "sticks and stones", them shit's hurt. And even if she never said it to her, the malice inside of her was not coming for Clare, it was coming from the shit she could no longer say or say to herself. And that to me, it was uncalled for. But I also felt bad for all parties involved. I mean, you put yourself into this thing, just like Clare, who was trapped in whiteness, trapped herself and wanted to come home. Whatever she saw as home. Rene was trapped in this world of her own making, and she couldn't find a way to oust, but she needed someone to take the fall. She needed someone to seem out, and different, and lower, and I'm better- but there would be moments, even in the film, there's moments she'd let something slip. She'd be like, Well, baby, not all of us are free. Or, what does freedom really even mean? Or like, can I- Yeah, baby, say it more, say more. Say it more. Because we both know you're not free. You have been put in a prison, your whole life is a prison. You did it to yourself, but also, we're all playing a role-
[00:41:39] Sophie: The depression is the prison, right?
[00:41:40] Pearl: Yes.
[00:41:40] Sophie: And I just wanna do a line reading before I hear David and Caullen's answers. Page 172, "sitting alone in the quiet room in the pleasant firelight, Irene Redfield wished, for the first time in her life, that she had not been born a Negro." So where's that going sis? You're not seeing a therapist, you're not talking to your husband. He's not listening to you. You're not saying how you really feel with your friends. So all that is staying physiologically in your own body. And it's coming- so even though I dislike her, I don't trust as a narrator, do I see the umbrella of trauma and its manifestations? So I do have- and it's everyone, they're all- and because oppression is the major thing, and they're wrestling interpersonally as if they think they have agency. When oppression is the one setting what they can and cannot have.
So I'm gonna stop right there. And I really wanna hear your answers on the validity of her contempt toward Clare. And how it came across in the film for you both. If you even sensed there was contempt in the film.
[00:42:52] Caullen: One thing I think of is that, if a film or a book or any kinda medium that's a storytelling model of some sort, is told through one character alone, even if it's slow and subtle, and near the end or middle you realize, oh, this is the first-person narrative. It's like, no matter who it is, we shouldn't trust them. Even if you like the protagonist, but you're only seeing it from their perspective. We can't trust their story, because it's going through one person's eyes. And that's like totally fair. And if you like them, but also it's through first-person, we shouldn't trust them cause it's only from their eyes. So I wanna name that. Also, our homie, Ruby Pinto, she's been on the podcast before- shout out- she has a jewelry company called Adornamorphosis. She wants to blend this idea of love and hate; you can love something or someone, and also hate them at the same time.
[00:43:47] Ruby Pinto: Another intersection was envy and disgust, where you can envy somebody and be so disgusted by them at the same time. So I try to do a lot of visual art around the intersections of emotions that we have that don't really make a lot of sense in the standard narrative of good and bad.
[00:44:05] Caullen: So when I think of Irene, I do think she's valid in her contempt for her. I think we can't- that doesn't- that sits with everything you both have mentioned. But I think that's valid of what we know Clare to be, but also, she can and we can't stop there and have to incorporate everything at the same time. And I think a lot of it is projection from how she's felt, and about a lot of things that she's not dealing with. And I think she's been lying to herself for so long as being someone who's controlled, and has things together. And I think that's why I really like the scene where she mentions, we can't talk about race in family, cause she's finally just being honest with somebody. Finally! So I don't think that's all that's good, but it's like, I can see where that comes from.
And I think about the thing with Ruby Pinto and the loving and hating something at the same time because I think she, in a weird way, she's jealous or envious of the way Clare does what she wants to fucking do. Is it out of all the things you've mentioned earlier and the context, yeah, but she's jealous of it. She wants that. You're doing these things that I also participate in, but you just went full-ass. You went full-ass into it. You're like, I'mma marry a white man, I'm gonna do what I want. When I want to visit Blackness, I'm gonna go to this person I don't really know and say, Hey, I'm gonna be your sister for the next 80 minutes. And I'm gonna do what I fucking want to do. And also, I know you're not gonna push back that much; you're actually gonna like me because of it.
So I think to your point, I mean, I can't say it any better than you, Pearl- she's going through a lot right now. But I don't think that discounts some validity in her being like, you're doing these things in this world, that I have an issue with, but also I'm navigating in a way that's also not healthy in a very, very different way. So that's what I think about when I hear that question. And I think obviously there's not a, black and white, like, she's right or wrong type shit. Especially with this movie and book. But I still felt that there was some validity there. But also, there's a lot going on- in both of them. It's very different and lives within a Venn diagram, some stuff that's similar that needs to be unpacked. I think we're doing that.
[00:46:27] David: I think the word choice here is "fair", right? Cause I don't think it's fair for Irene to have contempt or hold contempt for Clare, but to Caullen's point, it makes sense. And to me what was interesting is this constant level of, Oh, I may be in some of the things you're in, but I'm a better person.
[00:46:54] Caullen: I'm not THAT bad.
[00:46:58] David: And then to me, that broke. And I like what you meant Caullen, we shouldn't trust our protagonist. I like that. But to me it was when we start breaking down the relationship with her and Zu, who's the maid. And I'm like, Listen, Irene, I'm trying to like your ass, and I hear that you ain't Clare. And I hear that when she's saying that she won't even have Black maids around her, she won't have Black people around her. And we're getting this from John.
[00:47:23] Caullen: it probably reminds her of her betrayal.
[00:47:26] David: But in that, though, Irene don't give a fuck. Zu, why is she off? I mean, she has to visit her family, fam. Fuck, man. And, I don't know. It was to me, within that- so to answer the question- I don't know if it was fair. I think it makes sense in her mind. I think one of the things that I do wanna bring back; there was a sense, to me, of this little- some embers, between Irene and Clare. And there was multiple moments where I thought they were gonna start making out. And I was like, All right, this is what's gonna happen. I saw it in the film, and I know that that may not have been as prevalent, but to me what was interesting is then we're talking about control, we're talking about this... she sends her man with her to go play Bridge. And then from then on in her mind, things start going in a way- which really aren't. Like, I think Clare is Clare. And she gonna be- and it is what it is.
My favorite thing with that, just a little side tangent, was Irene is with the author, Mr. Whatever-the- fuck-his-name-is, right? It's like, "Oh, you're both here to look at Negros." It's like, Ohh... And Irene's the one who's saying that, when she's the one who's in charge of everything that's going on. And that's what makes her feel good and be in position. So, who really is here for what? And so, I think in your question, I think it's incredibly important; but "fair", I think might be the incorrect word. Because it's like, Irene, to y'all's point is going through it. And so I'm a little more curious about her as a person.
[00:49:09] Sophie: Something you said, Caullen, of the betrayal of passing and it really stuck with me, so I wanted to unpack that a little bit. Because, is passing a betrayal? And where does it lie? And I think objectively you can say it is a betrayal, but instinctively the people making decisions- like how would Irene think of it as a betrayal? How would Clare think of it as a betrayal? That stuck with me, and I was just like, Oof, that's a really good nugget. But also I think, before we get into John Bellew as this seminal character, but also this voice of white supremacy and oppression; all the very things as to why they need to pass, or someone would make a decision to pass because that's what they're facing every day. I think before we get into that pivotal scene that sets up the climax at the dinner party of, at Felise and was it Hazel?
[00:50:07] Pearl: What's the name?
[00:50:08] Sophie: Hazelwood. ...at the Hazelwood residence, that we should really talk about the Nig scene.
[00:50:16] Pearl: Lord have mercy, the Nig scene. I will not recover. I could've died.
[00:50:20] Sophie: To set up the Nig scene, in the book... so Irene sees Clare. Clare pushes past her boundaries and introduces herself in the Drayton Hotel. They have that encounter-
[00:50:30] Caullen: beginning of the film,
[00:50:32] Sophie: beginning of the story. They don't see each other for two more years.
[00:50:36] Pearl: Yes, exactly.
[00:50:37] Sophie: That's not set up in the book.
[00:50:39] David: We do get some of that, because she has not responded to her letters.
[00:50:42] Sophie: No, but in the movie it shows the seasons change. It shows from summer to fall.
[00:50:46] Caullen: I did not know.
[00:50:47] Sophie: In the book it was two years. And then they go to that party at the Negro Welfare League, and then Clare just inserts herself in Irene's life. And there's a very pivotal conversation between- and it shows in the book too, but it's different in- it's shows it in the film, but it's different in the book of the husband contextualizing, Yeah I see this all the time, people passing and wanting to come back to be rubbing against their Black brothers and sisters. And the negative consequences of that. So there's always this constant foreshadowing that gets us to the climax at- to get us to the end of the book. But I think before we get into that, we need to talk about the Nig scene, because what I liked about the film is they kept a lot of the same dialogue. Which is really great.
[00:51:32] Caullen: Oh, that's awesome to know. I didn't know that.
[00:51:34] Sophie: Yeah, like, John Bellew's narrative is ripped from the book. So I like that. So we can talk about that. I feel like I'm like monopolizing the conversation.
[00:51:45] Caullen: No, you always feel that way. Stop it. We're gonna keep all of this in, too.
[00:51:49] Pearl: Yeah, yeah! The Nig part is, it is deeply traumatizing for me. Like, I'm sitting in that room. I am in that room knowing that- let's be real, in real life, Tessa Thompson? No, I can tell she's obviously Black. But the other one...
[00:52:05] Sophie: Ruth Negga?
[00:52:06] Pearl: Yeah. I really understand, like, yes, they do use makeup in these situations. But-
[00:52:11] Caullen: and the movie's in black and white.
[00:52:12] Pearl: And the movie's in black and white on purpose. Which is such a brilliant choice.
[00:52:16] David: The only thing that threw me off was the blonde hair. I was like, Oh, you bleached that shit.
[00:52:19] Sophie: But Ruth is very, very fair. She could pass in real life if she wasn't open about her Irish, Scottish, and Black heritage. So she's from, oh gosh, I forget if she was born in Ireland or born in Scotland, but she has Irish, Scottish background. She's a phenomenal actress and even in her own personal life she's dated a British- a Welch actress- a Welch actor for the majority of the time that she's been.
So here's this very, very, very fair-skinned woman with a lot of European features where she could take certain roles similar to a Thandiwe Newton. And she dated Dominic Cooper, which I don't know if anyone's familiar with his work? So it's this really interesting of even the actor choices they had for the film. But Ruth Negga, yeah, she's an Irish, Scottish biracial woman, and she's very open in her interviews of her privilege and the trajectory of her path of being an actress. And so all that context I think is still very rich for this role. And it is really interesting how it seeps in through. And I think the actor choices, as well, that they make from certain scenes that they act out. But again, I think we're talking about the Nig scene, but...
[00:53:45] Caullen: I wanna zoom out a little bit, just real quick with that, cause I think it's important. Especially, I mean, I'm talking now to David now too, just as filmmakers, as we obviously do a lot of documentary work in Soapbox. But as far as scripted films and making choices behind the scenes, where that power comes through, who's on the screen, how they're acting, whatever, whatever; I love hearing stuff like that as far as, we're gonna get people who can act out this role and obviously want them to look a certain way for this job specifically, but also, what is your background, how have you wrestled with this before? And not only is that the moral thing to do, but you're gonna be able to act your ass off in this film cause that's the things you have to wrestle with all the fucking time.
I think that played out. I would've- I'm not surprised to hear that story. I think generally speaking, films like this are made that way better now than they were before. But all that shit is important, not only representation and you know how that can get us, but like, what is the background of your life experience and how are you bringing that into this role? We have to literally be a different person for months at a time.
[00:54:45] Sophie: And her family hated her too. They were not accepting of her mother cause her mother was Black. They were not accepting of her in her own personal story. And then, maybe this is indictment of Hollywood, she was also the lead actress in Loving v Virginia. So there's this kind of typecasting. Is that the only interracial person- no, no- is that the only biracial person that you know that can act this? But it's the same thing with Tessa Thompson and her...
[00:55:14] Pearl: Her everything?! Let's not do this. They choose a series of five biracial, curly-haired, light-skinned actresses for every role.
[00:55:27] Sophie: So Nig scene is when Clare- so Clare and Irene meet, and Clare is obsessive and pestering her to meet again while Clare's in Chicago for this very short trip. Staying at her father's house on the south side and... Cottage Grove... and Irene, against her better judgment. And it's just so interesting, she says this constantly, she betrays herself constantly in these first few scenes where she answers a call to go see Clare and regrets it the minute that she says, Yes, I wanna see you. So she has this window on a Tuesday where she doesn't have any obligations, and she goes and meets Clare and she's ambushed by another childhood friend, Gertrude.
So there's these three Black women who are passing. And seeing their banter, Gertrude is someone who, her line is, "I nearly had a fit thinking that I was gonna give birth to a dark-skinned baby". So we're talking about how passing is literally influencing the choices you make and socialization of your kids. It just envelopes their every being. And Gertrude is a very interesting side character, very comical character. And then to set the dramatic irony even more, Clare has made it so that they're all meeting when her husband's coming home.
[00:56:57] David: She did it on purpose.
[00:56:58] Sophie: Did it on purpose cause Clare's manipulative as fuck. Barring all the times that I've tried to defend her today. She's emotionally immature. And in walks her husband and the first utterance out of his mouth as a character, you don't even know his last name because even Irene was saying, I don't think I asked Clare what her last name is, but she does cause everything's tied to domesticity and status. In walks John. And then John says, "Nig!"
[00:57:27] Pearl: Oh my god....
[00:57:28] Sophie: Capital N-I-G exclamation point. And then from there it sets the scene of Irene's obvious horror. Cause we have her self-talk walking through the scene, and Gertrude, and the comedy. I think that scene is a comedy. I think it's the funniest scene in the book because of how it's juxtaposed against- I think it's a comedy on the ineptitude of white men.
[00:57:52] Pearl: So John walks in, he talks it, he yells out, he says, "I've missed you, my"- I could say it, I don't know why it just upsets me, but, "Nig".
[00:58:03] Sophie: "Hello, Nig!"
[00:58:04] Pearl: Yes! And the look on 1) this understanding, the moment that it's said, from Irene. But also the sort of perplexed and deeply like, No... that can't be... Cause she still has this look on her face. There's this thing that she holds herself in a lot. This very... put together, proper- but the veil almost drops. And you're with her. So you're also like, *stutters* say what?
[00:58:36] Sophie: A nigga said who?
[00:58:37] Pearl: Yeah, yeah. "What? What did you say?"
[00:58:39] Sophie: Thought a broke bitch said something.
[00:58:41] Pearl: Yes! Yeeeeeessss!!! But then, Clare stands up- and the way that she, like- proudly!
[00:58:50] Sophie: I'm gonna stick beside him.
[00:58:52] Pearl: Yeeessss!! The way that she that's looks in the film itself, the way that she stands up, like she kind of saunters off, turns around:
[00:59:00] Clare: Did you hear what John called me, Rene?
[00:59:04] John: Oh, Clare, please.
[00:59:05] Clare: No, go on. Tell her why.
[00:59:08] John: Oh, it's silly. When we were first married, this woman was as white as a lily. But as the years go by, she seems to be getting darker and darker. So I told her, "If you wanna look out, you'll wake up one morning and find that you've turned into a nigger." Yeah. She's been Nig ever since.
[00:59:29] Pearl: I'm sorry, what's happening?
[00:59:30] Caullen: You need to know. I was like, you're making a choice to tell her.
[00:59:33] Pearl: So you are in Irene's head, and you're sitting there with her like, Yeah, John, tell the whole class.
[00:59:41] Sophie: And I loved seeing this in the film. It couldn't, it didn't really translate on the page of the book of seeing Clare's amusement. But also curiosity of what are my friends going to do?
[00:59:54] Caullen: And also, she just told homegirls. I'm like, You trust her a lot.
[00:59:58] Pearl: And she's laughing in such a strange, comical,
[01:00:02] Sophie: it's maniacal,
[01:00:03] Pearl: mechanical, psychotic way. Where it's just like, "isn't that sooo funny?!"
[01:00:09] Sophie: Like, that's who I brought a child into this world with,
[01:00:12] Pearl: What are we doing here?? Who is that funny to? And you have to be in Irene's space. You have to be composed even though I'm spazzing cause I'm watching it. But also I realize, in the film, if I was in the position, I don't wanna give myself up. Cause I don't know what he's going to do. And also, are you going to join him?
[01:00:46] Irene: *laughing hysterically* That's good!
[01:00:52] John: Oh, it's silly.
[01:00:54] Irene: No... that's.... that's... that's good.
[01:00:57] Clare: My goodness, John! After all these years, what would it matter if you found out that I was 1 or 2% colored, hmm?
[01:01:06] John: Well, you can turn as Black as you please, as far as I'm concerned. I know you're not colored.
[01:01:14] Irene: So you dislike Negroes, Mr. Bellew?
[01:01:16] John: No, no, no, not at all. I hate them. But not as much as Nig does, for all she's trying to turn into one. Why, she won't have them near her, not even as a maid.
[01:01:29] Sophie: And I think that's where it turns into a comedy. Where it's like, you're in a room full of three Black women. You inept. Impotent. Colonizer. And being blinded by his hubris- or the hubris of oppression that he can't see like, you're talking to three Black women. So, obviously you don't know everything. So, I don't know, that was a bit of a dramatic irony/dark comedy for me. And the scene goes on and on, but it's just really good.
[01:02:02] Caullen: No, I know we wanna move- keep the story going forward in unpacking these things. That portion was obviously very shocking. Like, "what the fuck", to me as well. But honestly, and I know we'll get to how passing looks and how these themes look currently in 2022 now and stuff, and how passing is bigger than just race, but when he said- when she asked him...
[01:02:21] Irene: Have you ever known any Negroes?
[01:02:24] John: No, no, no, no. But I do know people who know them. And I read about them in the papers, of course. Terrible mess. Robbing, killing.
[01:02:34] Caullen: I know we know people in the spaces we traverse, and work, and just in the world who ain't got no Black friends. But they only have local Fox News talking about the shootings in the south side, and violence in Chicago, and
[01:02:49] Sophie: and the construction of Black.
[01:02:51] Caullen: Showing what we see
[01:02:52] David: robbing cars
[01:02:53] Caullen: and showing these images. And I'm looking at local Fox News in Chicago cause it's something I see a lot, but that's not unique to other cities, and other countries even in some capacity. But this is in the '20s.
[01:03:07] Sophie: This was written in the '20s...
[01:03:09] Caullen: fast forward a hundred years-
[01:03:10] Sophie: still saying the same lines.
[01:03:12] Caullen: We know people like that. They don't have- their only friends are white people. Funny hearing that line, I was like, I could maybe replacing "Negroes" with like "Black people" or "Black friends" . I can see someone saying that exact thing in 2022 and I would not be surprised.
"I listen to hip hop- I listen to Kendrick. Kendrick's album is dope, bro."
[01:03:32] David: "He's a prophet!"
[01:03:33] Sophie: He couches the end of that conversation, he says "The Black scrimy devils." So he's the only person that alludes to calling something "Black". We talked "Negroes" earlier, "colored"
[01:03:44] David: "dark"
[01:03:45] Sophie: and all these different "cinnamon" adjectives. And he ends that sentence saying, "the Black scrimy devils", like coming to, I have people who know people, I read in the papers, but here's my judgment. And it's just hard and fast racist.
[01:04:01] David: And you know what I really appreciate about listening? I was like, I would've- to me there was so much... anger's probably not the word, cause we're confused, but we're also like, wait, what? But I didn't sit with it. To sit with the fact that this motherfucker was so stupid, in the film there's only two of them. But even then! And the thing that we start seeing little glimpses of that are foreshadowing of Irene, is she's wearing this hat in the film, this like, whole 360 thing. But it comes to her eyes, and it's a little see-through in the film, whatever. But it's like, those were my moments where like, Oh wait, he's coming. And so to me, I didn't even realize it was intentional. To me it was like, Oh, is this gonna happen?... I'm gonna put you in this space. I did see Clare being a total, like, *giggling* Let's see what happens. Cause literally, that's literally how I felt.
And so with the whole- when she started playing with it and teasing him; the moment I knew what it was, is he sat down and asked for a drink, she gave him his. And guess what she drank? She drank right out of the flask. And to me, those are things that I'm picking up on. My girl's are the one out here lighting these cigarettes- my girls, you know what I'm saying? And so to this whole that-scene-is-a-comedy, I see that more and I appreciate that because it makes me not as angry about that scene. Because at the end of day, John is the one... let's fast forward a little bit- so, we were talking about John sees Irene and Felicia, which is one of their homies-
[01:05:28] Sophie: not Felicia, Felise!
[01:05:30] David: Lord have mercy.
[01:05:31] Sophie: Now bringing her name into the 20th century now. Or 21st, actually.
[01:05:35] Caullen: David, he's on the side, he's writing the new version, 2022.
[01:05:38] Sophie: Oh, right right right right! Reboot!
[01:05:41] Pearl: Bye Felicia!
[01:05:43] Sophie: Felicia and Isis walking down the street. Here comes Tyronne.
[01:05:48] Caullen: Instead of John, it's Cayden.
[01:05:50] Sophie: Oh, Cayden, you right, you right.
[01:05:51] David: That's when, to me, it was like, this motherfucker is stupid. He's not- he clearly sees this person. And it was in the point where they 1) there is no obvious, like, Hey, Felise, you're a human being here, too. Oh, you know homegirl, blah blah blah blah blah. Hell no! It's like:
[01:06:09] John: oh, Mrs. Redfield, how do you do?
[01:06:26] Felise: That was abrupt.
[01:06:35] Irene: You just passed the only person I ever met while disguised as a white woman.
[01:06:39] David: Hey, I'm only seeing you- I'm only talking to you
[01:06:41] Sophie: because you're white
[01:06:41] David: And I'm curious to see what the distinction is between the book.
[01:06:44] Sophie: In the book, she's wrestling- it's just as uncomfortable as it is on screen, only because in that moment, A) she's not gonna shake his hand because she detests him. So that still translates. Detest him, hates him. The second thing is, she was deciding in that moment, should she tell John that Clare is passing? So that is all- it's a very crucial moment for Irene, because there are a lot of things that Irene is now telling herself is out of her control. And she wants to regain control. And the thing that she starts to blame it on is Clare. And then she starts to concoct, or maybe see things that aren't there that her husband is having an affair with Clare.
And then in that moment, as they're getting ready for the dinner party the next day at Felise's house and they're shopping... the pause.. Yeah, we understand she detests him, but the pause was honestly because she was figuring out, Do I tell him right now? "Oh yeah, your wife...".
Because the ineptitude of John and obviously the construction of whiteness, he saw her as a white woman cause he wanted her to be a white woman in his home. He couldn't perceive anything else. The only reason why he realized she's passing only is because of her proximity to a Black person. There's still no scientific or no intellectual reason that's telling him, Oh, she's passing. It's just because of her proximity to a Black person. And it's inconceivable that a white person would be next to a Black person. So therefore you are lesser than me. You're inferior. But in that moment, Irene is simply looking at this time as, Do I tell? Cause I want Clare out of her- she wants Clare out of her life, and she was deciding, Do I tell John, "Oh yeah, Clare actually has been hanging out with us for a long time," because that would then be his association.
If she's coming down here and hanging out in Harlem and associating with your kind, she's passing. And she tells Felise so she doesn't tell on herself that she was gonna throw Clare under the bus. So she makes that admission to Felise to cover up what she thought was very apparent, that people are gonna find out that I wanted to throw Clare under the bus. And she has this whole inner dialogue of, Man, even at this moment, I still have an allegiance to my race. And it's a beautiful paragraph of her dissecting that. And I'm gonna stop talking.
[01:09:04] Pearl: And it's really important to understand that in that moment with Felise, someone who is not passing, but also someone who does not entertain whites. Does not live in the white- you know how like, the whites, and she's just outside of that white gaze even- we'll talk about the ending when she's like, Baby, baby, real quick, you by yourself. I'mma let you finish, but homie, you by yourself.
But understanding that, she quickly had to either admit something or do something else. Felise is like, Uhm, you wanna explain this white man? You wanna talk about it? So we not gonna talk about it?
[01:09:40] Sophie: That conversation was funny.
[01:09:42] Pearl: Come on. She definitely, she looked at her like, I'm sorry, who the hell is this white man? That's how we gonna start the conversation. Nigga, who the fuck was that? So we gonna talk about something.
[01:09:54] Sophie: I need this reboot now.
[01:09:56] Pearl: These hours would be messy. Like, we're either gonna admit something, which is why the very next scene in the movie she's like, What if... John... like Uhuh, I'm just gonna throw it out there... What if John found out? Because I was gonna do some shit earlier, but just what would you do? What would you do? What would you do? What would you do? And she's like, Live my life. She's like, I just want you to understand some shit almost went down. Yeah, but you're a mom, like, what are you gonna do? It was this moment of like, I need you to leave. I need you to leave so I don't do something. You need to just go, and go back to your world- but also, she doesn't throw her under the bus because there is a part of her, that What would your life be? What would it look like with Clare completely devoid? There's something that she's wrestling with. So it's not just, I just really need you to leave, because that is a lot for her. She's dealing with a lot of internalized homophobia. She's dealing with a lot of colorism in her own self, and what she's going through. But there is something else.
Look, Batman... whatever, like Joke- we talking about it. But I always think, who would Batman be without Joker? And I'm sorry, I need to know. It could easily be rectified, and it's never. Because to me, when I think about Irene and I think about Clare, I think about, I don't know if Irene was ready to be devoid of her fully.
[01:11:26] Sophie: Before we go into the climax, I wanna take this tangent on the homoeroticism that's throughout. I wanna ask you, cause- and for context for me, Nella Larson had only written two works. And the first book, Quicksand, was a very explicit kind of coming of age of two women wrestling with their sexuality. It's very explicit in the synopsis and in the story. And this idea of quicksand of, at the end, it's really heartbreaking, of them going into the direction of their lives that they don't really want to. So that's just kind of what they're setting themselves up for, just to be constantly being pulled down into quicksand and not being able to get out.
Now what I found and how this text was introduced to me 10 years ago in undergrad, was the Michelle Pfeiffer of Dangerous Minds work of then translating this and then making it the basis- or the totality of Nella Larson's work. So for me, I was like, Man, am I reading this with there's issues of, or there's... not latency... there's themes of homoeroticism, because it was put into my mind and I'm reading every interaction to this? Or is it really there? Because- and that's why I wanna ask this question because in Part Three- and even midway through Part Two, Irene's contempt and her negotiations and questioning of Clare and why she's passing and what that means. And her responsibility as a mother, and, No, you don't want John to find out that you have Negro in you because of what that's gonna do for your daughter. And you haven't even thought about that. And then Clare is still in her borderline personality- sorry, I'm not a licensed therapist, but real recognize real.
[01:13:20] Caullen: She's dancing too, she's doing a little shimmy.
[01:13:22] Sophie: I see a little bit of myself in Clare. And she's just still like, Yeah, but motherhood's the cruelest thing in the world, and, Do you have a kid? She's in boarding school, mmm mmm. Like, Clare, you didn't answer the question. But then there's a whole Act of where I don't see the contempt, the whiplash and emotions being anything that's this wrestling of her attracted to this woman. It becomes into full-on detestation.
So I wanted to ask you, how was this lens of homoeroticism or struggling with her sexuality injected to you? Cause I feel like that was kind of projected to me by this well-meaning white teacher. But as I read it, and I've read it multiple times, I didn't see that. And so I'm curious to know, are you guys saying it cause people have said it or did you actually see that? Cause in the film, I feel like Rebecca Hall put in external discourse and made it choices for the actors. Because the way that she wrote it, that was nowhere in the book.
[01:14:38] Pearl: I think that between film and book we are watching Irene's mind devolve. So as we're watching it there are moments- and as someone who loves to see gay in everything, I'm just like, Gay, Gay, you're all gay- I just love it. I don't care if it's just one little moment, I just wanna capitalize on it. But what I do feel is that we are watching Irene's mind devolve, so I need to ask myself, am I seeing sexual tension between these women? Or am I supposed to see it because her mind is already do-?
So the words that she chooses, right? She talks about Clare's mouth. She says, "caressing"
[01:15:22] Sophie: "delicate, sensual mouth."
[01:15:24] Pearl: Her actions, she talks about her actions, "feline" and there are things that she's bringing up in the book. The things that she's saying, it becomes obsession. Especially when we start to think- especially in the film- when we start to see her, see every interaction with her, with Clare and her husband as sexual, overtly. When we're like, he was really just-
[01:15:46] Caullen: I wouldn't say overtly. But I do think it's suggested strongly.
[01:15:49] Sophie: She was threatened by her contact.
[01:15:50] Pearl: Yes, but even when he's putting on her coat when they're going to bridge. It's like, Yes, put on that coat! But you're like, Or he's quickly just putting on her coat. So my thing is, do I see certain things? Ehh, not always. I do believe that we are supposed to understand that her mind is starting to go into this place of like, She wants my husband, she wants my life. But, what do I do about that? And do I want her fully gone? But also, Do I wanna kiss her? No, probably not. But also, we can't trust it. So in the book, when she grabs her hand, she's like, I just think you're so beautiful! Like, where is this coming from and what am I supposed to see?
So I don't know if I think it's overtly, or even covertly, homosexual. Or she's fighting something, more so than I think that she is devolving and there is something- Clare is like an interrupting virus. She is just something that has now placed her into someone else's world, especially Irene's, that is prim and proper and kept as careful as possible. And now this person is now interjecting into this. So she is like this mess that she is not prepared to clean up, or prepared to even notice. And we are now watching the interactions be a little bit of everything: detest, sexual, repugnant, as we see in the film and in the movie- I mean in the book. When we're learning the way she's speaking to Hugh, the white man, and she's like, She's just like the thing that's... pretty... so, sometimes it's different. So it's really repugnant...-
[01:17:33] Sophie: She was very disparaging in that scene.
[01:17:35] Pearl: It was terrifying.
[01:17:36] Sophie: She basically called her like a sack of cells. Like, you're nothing more than that.
[01:17:41] Pearl: So everybody's always into, But we're asking ourselves, are you saying that? Or are you saying that because you're also paying attention? Or are you thinking that every man and every woman and every person that comes in contact with Clare believes this thing? Do you believe that she believes this thing? So I really- the film and the book we are set up; because we are- especially in the movie, we're forced to watch it through Irene's eyes and feelings: her shaking, her hands, her anxiety, her mess, and realizing is she really trying to not be in love with this woman? Or is it terrifying that this is this thing that has been introduced and now everything she sees is falling apart? Do I think that there are some sexual overtones and undertones? Yeah. But I also believe it's not what I would like.
But it's not what we are led to believe. I believe that we are watching this woman fall apart. So no matter what we see, it has to be always carefully examined because she is now seeing every, every ounce of this woman, Clare, as something that is an interrupter and something that is too.... not even promiscuous... too.... I don't know, what is the word?
[01:18:57] Sophie: Too chaotic.
[01:18:58] Pearl: Yes, it is too chaotic.
[01:19:00] Sophie: Irene's thing is security, and safety of space.
[01:19:02] Pearl: It needs it to be in this balance. Nothing can be out of this balance. Even if no one is watching, she still can't unwind herself.
[01:19:12] Caullen: Some Thanos energy.
[01:19:14] Sophie: Not Thanos energy.
[01:19:16] Caullen: Mad Thanos energy.
[01:19:16] David: And I mentioned this earlier on, I definitely felt like there was something within it that I then feel later drove this sort of disdain about the interaction with her husband and her. And what I thought was interesting was, my boy was clear from the jump- he's like, Yo, let me read this letter. I was like, Yo, bro, chill out. And also I think one thing we didn't talk about is we constantly see the way men are interacting with all of these women, regardless of whether they're passing or not. And I think that's a thing that, if it was John or it was my boy who,
[01:19:49] Sophie: Brian,
[01:19:49] David: His name is escaping me. Brian. Like, Man, you gotta chill out, you can't talk to her like that.
I know you guys were talking about time. And I do feel like we see time enough within the film, it passes, right? Cause Irene clearly makes these decisions like, I don't wanna talk to this girl. I don't wanna be this girl. Versus her husband, that's constantly being like, Yo, I'm gonna open this letter let's read it- Oh, she's great... blah blah blah. Oh, but you're the one that wanna hang out with her. You're the one who invited her. You're the one who's gonna be here. Why are you all of a sudden? And then it shifts to like, Oh, you talked to her without me talking to her? Of course you would. These are just like, I'm like, Wait, wait, what? This is supposed to be your friend this entire time. But it's interesting just hearing y'all like, this is just the dissolving of her mind in how she's picturing these things. Cause to me, boy was clear from the jump. He's like, I like my women darker. So my guy has been clear, at least in my eyes. And so everything else regarding this homoeroticism, I did see and I felt, and I thought low-key, they were both gonna get into it.
But I think to Irene, Clare was just so much out here, so much like, Yo, this, left, right, I don't give a fuck what you put in front of me, but it's gonna be. And I felt that, and I think to Irene that's just too much of a chaos. Too much of like, Oh, you gonna be with me and you gonna be with my husband? And you gonna be with the- there was also one gentleman who she constantly was dancing with and we see him a few times who was like the eligible bachelor or whatever.
[01:21:17] Caullen: Because I didn't know- again I haven't read the books so I didn't know that there was not really any of those overtones in the book. And I think it came across in the film with all the themes we can get from how Irene felt about Clare, but for me it was the cinematography, the shots, all that was saying that pretty clearly. Was the eluding of the homoeroticism in the shots and cinematography a dumbed down way to conflate her jealousy and weird feelings towards her? Yeah... I guess that's my question. They're like, hey, we only got so much audience, the audience is dumb, we live in a patriarchal society, so let's just make this kinda sexy thing and can put all these really complex, nuanced feelings into this maybe homoeroticism, maybe not. And then leave it at that.
Is that kinda what happened? It's actually not that deep, and they're like, it's not there at all. And they're just like, fuck it. And, Oh, some scholar wrote about it, so we have some validity... we're not just making this thing that's actually not there; and we don't know how to show all these really complex feelings that Irene has for Clare. Which some are really positive, some are really jealous, but it's like, fuck it, we'll just make you act like she wants to have sex with her. And I say that as like- it sounds like I'm dogging the filmmakers, I think it's a filmmaker thing, I think it's an audience thing, I think it's complex; but I think another thing of it is like, fuck it let's just put that together in this thing we're gonna allude.
[01:22:51] David: We've got three months to shoot, let's fucking get this out.
[01:22:53] Caullen: We only got 90 minutes. Does that make sense? And do you think that there's some of that there?
[01:22:58] Sophie: I have chills because that makes a lot of sense, because it leads into... this was Oscar bait. The film. And Rebecca Hall, who I've- Oh, I think I talked offline about... she's this British actress, this was her directorial debut. They filmed this very quickly, I think two weeks during the pandemic. And it was touted. And when you would watch the interviews and read- well, when I watched interviews and I'd read the articles-
[01:23:28] Caullen: when one would watch the interviews...
[01:23:29] Sophie: And here's this white lady trying to center herself. And she wrote and directed it, guys.
[01:23:36] Caullen: Until you told us that, I didn't know that.
[01:23:38] Sophie: She wrote and directed it.
[01:23:39] David: So she wrote the screenplay off of a book?
[01:23:40] Sophie: So it's adap- so if she was nominated for an Oscar it would be for Adapted Screenplay. She wrote and directed it. And Tessa Thompson and Ruth Negga were listed as Executive Producers after like, 15 people. So they didn't really have any kind of capital, as opposed to like, maybe Zendaya having capital when she did Malcolm & Marie and gave everybody 1% stake in the film, right?
[01:24:05] David: Six digit checks.
[01:24:08] Sophie: Right. And so there wasn't a lot of capital they had. Maybe as actors for stylistic choices. But this was really helmed by a white lady, written from the lens of a white lady. And the way that they pushed this through Oscar-campaigning season was so disgusting to me. And then the last part is, for a final push, she has this- it was kind of right at the tail-end of voting from the Academy- and she has this fucking interview. And this bitch says, to make sense of her positionality- and I use bitch lovingly. Actually, listeners-
[01:24:48] Caullen: No, David, you can't use that.
[01:24:49] Sophie: Cancel me. At this point, just cancel me. She says in this interview, Yeah, well, you know, I heard that my grandmother... or great-grandmother...
[01:25:00] Pearl: Don't.
[01:25:00] Caullen: No.
[01:25:00] Pearl: Don't.
[01:25:01] Caullen: You're not gonna do it.
[01:25:01] Pearl: Please don't.
[01:25:03] Sophie: Had Black in her.
[01:25:04] David: "Had Black in her"?
[01:25:05] Caullen: Not even like, "was Black", but had Black in her.
[01:25:10] Sophie: So she was like, Okay, John Bellew, I see you, I'll raise you a 3% Drop Rule. Like, you know what I mean? So I'm watching this- and I watched this movie last night at 11:30. Because I never wanted to watch it as- and you guys know I love films- I saw that they were making this book with Tessa Thompson, Ruth Negga, I love them. When I saw Rebecca Hall, immediately no.
Immediately no. And then I was following the press around it. Then I was following all her articles, and she was being touted. Cause it was around a time Maggie Gyllenhaal had her directorial debut, so there was this battle of which white woman was gonna clench the nominations for all these, basically all these shoe-ins: Directors Guild Awards and Critics Choice Awards, all these things that's gonna propel you to the Academy Awards and you'll most likely appear, if not get nominated or shortlisted. And I'm hearing what this bitch is saying and I'm just like, this is a joke.
Wait a minute, they're executive producers behind all these other white producers who are listed on there? Okay, so they don't have a lot of capital. Wait a minute, did she just say her grandmama and then somebody was, had Black in them? It was, it just became a farce.
And so I knew, I can't watch a film about a book that means so much to me and see it get diluted, polluted?.. I don't know...by Hollywood for the sake of Oscar-bait. And to see it go down the line, and pushed down on our throats like Green Book, or all these other films. Ziwe has a really great episode of where she makes this parody on... she does this super cut of a trailer for a generic Oscar-bait film.
[01:26:58] Caullen: Ooh, that's gotta be good.
[01:26:59] Sophie: Couched in Black trauma and Black death. It's brilliant. Find it on YouTube. And so I was like, Yeah, it's gonna be a "no" for me. It's immediately no.
And so when I saw the film, in the first 14 minutes, if you guys saw my face last night... I was disgusted, because they chopped up two scenes and made it into one, and just that. But then when I got to the end, and seeing the blatant homoeroticism, which was handled with so much care even if there was- cause I had notes where I'm like, Does she like her? Cause I'm like, the last time I've had this much whiplash of emotions for someone, I wanted to fuck them.
And so there is that kind of chaotic, emotional, self-talk and emotional understanding that Irene doesn't know what to do with those feelings. They're very big feelings. And it comes out in projection, it comes out manipulative, it comes out really... when we don't want to deal with those feelings, it comes out mean. But the way that it was handled in the film, that blatant homoeroticism that you guys saw, she's riding in the bed in this dreamscape and then you see this figure of Clare and then she wakes up and it's her husband. Why did she do that to that scene in the movie? Cause that's not in the book, that's not what it was about. So that's why I was asking. Because there was all this Hollywood background context, and the positionality of the person who inserted herself to create this, which she shouldn't have. And that's where it was upset to me.
[01:28:30] Pearl: White people talk about Black people- and Black women specifically-
[01:28:33] Sophie: but her grandmama Black!
[01:28:36] David: Might have some Black in 'em.
[01:28:39] Pearl: From times of being enslaved peoples, they have always seen us as deeply sexual. Something that they can't touch; or they can, but they need to hide. They're a language. There's words to describe Black women and how white women get to be pure and soft and demure and fragile. And Black women don't have that. And it's more than just the strong Black woman trope. We get to- we are paramores, and sexual- and overtly sexual. And we are pushed and pulled into these dark spaces. So the reality that someone who is white would make every situation between two women already fighting for this understanding of Blackness and when it's convenient and not, and this idea of passing, that these moments would be overtly sexual. Because baby girl's taking medication cause she's soooo anxious; it's not sexual. She is struggling,
[01:29:35] Sophie: She's depressed. She's not horny, she's depressed.
[01:29:38] Pearl: But we made it- In the film it is definitely made to be super incredibly sexual with this other woman; when really she is struggling. She is on the actual struggle bus. And every moment, especially when you see the tinctures and the tonics, like when one is turned over letting you know that she is taking this a lot. When her son sees her going up the stairs and he says, Mama, are you going upstairs to go to bed? And it catches her, and she's like, No, no. Baby, you-
[01:30:08] David: Or, I thought you'd be asleep. That's what it, like, Oh, I thought you were gonna be asleep.
[01:30:11] Sophie: Your body is telling you to rest.
[01:30:13] Pearl: You are exhausted. You are deeply depressed. It is not sexual. But we- not we, cause I am me- but definitely "we", especially white folks, the way that they look at the Black woman, it is so interesting to say the least. And it is so deeply- we're put in these positions of being deeply sexual, when really we don't want to be strong Black women. We wanna be soft, baby, I need to fall apart sometimes. But this is what it's told. No, no, no, she's not depressed or anxious or the fact that her hand is shaking and she can't stay awake ever.
[01:30:50] David: She's drugged the fuck up.
[01:30:50] Sophie: Or her husband is getting ready to move the entire family to Brazil.
[01:30:54] Pearl: Yeah. Talking about, I don't wanna just visit.
[01:30:57] Sophie: There's a lot of context on the husband that doesn't come off well in the film that I'm like. There's a reason why baby girl is depressed.
[01:31:05] Pearl: Come on! She keeps saying, We'll take a trip. And he's like, A trip?
[01:31:08] David: I wanna stay there.
[01:31:09] Sophie: I'm trying to move, nigga.
[01:31:10] Pearl: I'm trying to move.
[01:31:11] Caullen: They lynching us left and right.
[01:31:13] Pearl: Come on.
[01:31:13] Sophie: Not without reason, but-
[01:31:14] David: Any last thoughts though, before going into the climax?
[01:31:17] Caullen: I mentioned the lynching that happened. He is talking with his sons about, mentioned this earlier in the conversation as well. I'm to think of what to add... I think they have very different views on... not only just race and these issues that obviously affect them as Black people in this world, but also as raising their children. And how you can bring the next generation up, as far as dealing with this in really real ways. And he mentions in the film, I don't know the exact quote, but his son gets called a nigger. Hard "r". White folks, not that it matters, don't say it anyway. But hard "r" in the film, and then okay, we didn't talk about it with them before, but then now it's talking to them because they're still Black in this world.
[01:31:58] David: They have to face it.
[01:31:58] Caullen: And so once that happened, then you see him start talking to his sons really abruptly about the lynching and about like how being Black America operates, and how they have to traverse Blackness in white spaces, and what have you, what have you, what have you... And she's like, Not now.. Not now.. Not now. And it's kind of a weird scene just cause they want two very different things in this moment. It's like, y'all need to talk alone. Figure this out, then come to your children. Cause they're getting two very different messages. And I think obviously, in the film at least, he's much darker than she is. Cannot pass. She obviously can pass. And so they are, and have always traversed the world differently as far as their skin color. And so I think that plays into that. He's like, No, I'm gonna be- I can't- I don't have these options you have. And my Black sons need to know this. And I think as a viewer, and just as a Black person watching it, I'm like, Yeah,
[01:32:49] Sophie: He's not wrong.
[01:32:50] Caullen: He's right. But in a way, if we're looking back, there's not only defending her standpoint, but, when do you talk about that? Do you wait until it happens? Do you talk about it early on? When you do have the talk, how does that talk evolve? Where as the conversation as they get older and they start doing things without you and stuff, how much do you say not to do certain things? How much is that playing into white supremacy in a way? How is it being like, No, I want you to come back home. And I've had those conversations with my parents, you know what I mean? In the early 00s, not 1920s. So it's like, that's just real, and it's not changing. The conversation sounds a little differently, but those are conversations that I'd imagine all Black parents are still having. I don't have any kids, but. Yeah, it rang- it was very, it wasn't super super nuanced, pretty much on its face in the film, but I still was listening and watching with full attention span just cause I've been those children. I've been thinking about those things ever since.
And I mentioned previously on this podcast, different instances like that where I'm traversing not only Blackness, but Blackness and class. Blackness and class and survival, and what that looks like.
[01:34:03] Sophie: But that exhaustion, and I think the soul cry from her in that. Cause when I first, I made a note in the book when I first read it, I called her naive and childish. And 10 years later I'm like, I'm not a mom, but I recognize the powerlessness of why can't my kids just have a childhood free from this?
[01:34:21] David: They should just be happy. Let them be happy.
[01:34:22] Sophie: That white kids are afforded. It's showing you there's this intentional socialization of our kids that other people- we don't have to have the talk. Not everyone has a talk with their kids. And there's that heartbreaking thing of the mother of where I'm like, I don't have kids but, you want them to- she just wants them to be kids a little longer.
[01:34:43] David: Wants to be happy. Just let 'em be happy. It's like, wait, what? So like they're Black and this equals not happy?
[01:34:46] Sophie: He's looking at it like, Oh man, I'm traversing this as, we're being lynched and castrated and tied to a car and driven around the square and people having picnics around this. So there's something very violent that he's like, I see this violence every day, I carry this as a Black man traversing this space. I can't separate myself from this violence. Cause it's one glance away from coming to me. That guy got shot and lynched for the accusation of.... And Emmett Till just looked or whistled, allegedly? And he's dead. So it's like the competing emotions of that, that again, it's under this umbrella of oppression.
It's created under this conditions of white supremacy and oppression where not a lot of people think of their parenting having to have this caveat of where I have to have this talk with my kid. Well, maybe it might happen for women, and.. When we're talking about intersectionality and whiteness and, when you're walking to your car, hold your keys this way. But even though we know that the way that white men can approximate, or align themselves with power, there's still that naivety that is happening in white women's construction in womanhood as well. But that's another podcast episode. Maybe on my podcast...
[01:35:57] Caullen: Let's go! But subtle plug, I see you!
[01:35:59] Sophie: But I think, but again, it's like, I love, I'm not gonna critique of how it was different or cut and pasted into the film, because I think the theme still played out beautifully of that tension of this apparent violence that we're conditioned, we're socialized, we have to navigate that. But then this cry of this mother like, I just want my kids to just like, why can't they just be kids?
[01:36:23] Caullen: You can't couch that.
[01:36:25] Pearl: and it is deeply.. And I fully agree and it is deeply extreme on both ends. The father definitely understanding that I am a Black man every single day, and my sons are Black men and they will walk in the world as Black men. And you want to protect them but they- one of them was just called a nigga with like- and a "dirty" one.
[01:36:45] Caullen: In chapter one!
[01:36:46] Sophie: And them kids left the house looking fresh! Pomade everywhere. Talking about "dirty little nigga"...
[01:36:54] Pearl: but then think about the mother who wants them to be children just a little while longer because the world will not allow that. But the reality is, both are very extreme to me. Where is the middle point? Because I watched a video of a little six year old playing in his own yard and then a police car drives by and he hides behind a van. That's seven. That's not knowing anything but that I live in a skin, at seven. So yeah, you can't stop the fact that somebody called your son a dirty nigger, but you can also not pretend it never happened. You can't. She wanted to pretend. And I get it and I get him, but I also understand that in the middle they need something. You need to come home and be safe. You don't need to sit down for a whole dinner and talk about why they're lynching Black folks because, let me tell you something, I'm a grown person and don't wanna deal with that every day. But also, I cannot pretend, mom, that it's not happening. That I'm not gonna walk in the streets even as a- because as we know, little Black boys don't get to be called boys in media, they're grown men- so we need to talk about that too.
But there is that beauty of her being like, they are going to deal with this regardless, but I just want them to come home and know that they are safe. Now, can they fully be safe? Probably not. But right now, as the privilege of being at least a wealthy Black person, I get to bypass a little bit of things. So I'm just gonna allow them to come up them little brownstone steps, and just be affluent little Black boys.
[01:38:27] Caullen: It was a nice house. I ain't gonna lie.
[01:38:28] Sophie: Shout out to the brownstones. Oh my God.
[01:38:31] Pearl: Come on! In Harlem?!
[01:38:31] Sophie: It's my dream.
[01:38:33] David: What I really appreciated in the film, and I don't know if you see this in the book, but the constant stare of that crack on her ceiling- or their ceiling, their bedroom ceiling.
[01:38:42] Sophie: It was a fracture.
[01:38:43] Pearl: Oh, come on.
[01:38:44] David: And we see it only in times when... I think the first time we see it is when the gentleman, he lays down, he's like, You're on my dress. Also, once again, I'm like, I'm mad at all the dudes in this film. I'm like, Bro-
[01:38:55] Caullen: as you should be. Baseline.
[01:38:59] David: And he lays under it and looks up, and he's talking about what he can and can't do, and boom, we see a crack on the ceiling. He wealthy, he's a doctor, he's doing well. But guess what? He's still staring at that every fucking night.
And so as we take that too, I'm curious as to when we start- so John talks with homies.. And he, John, I wish we would've had little segueways and see what John was thinking on the subway.
[01:39:23] Caullen: Man, John don't need no extra time.
[01:39:25] Sophie: John about shit, man... John's like Daisy's husband in Gatsby, talking.
[01:39:26] David: I know he's probably on some crazy shit. Because it was interesting as you were saying, he's associating her Blackness with the people she hanging out with, right? And to me, okay, so we get to this final scene- or I dunno if it's the final scene-
[01:39:40] Sophie: That's a good segway.
[01:39:41] David: They're chilling out, they hanging out, they doing their thing... and there's knock, knock, knock on the door. They're in there, she's in there, blah, blah. And I'm like, Oh shit, this motherfucker showed up. He found ''em. And like, so clearly John,
[01:39:51] Caullen: the insurrection's happening.
[01:39:52] David: John been doing work. But it's interesting because, so, and mind you, this entire time I feel that the first shot, we see John, we cut to Irene, we cut back to where John, and then we cut back to Clare. And Clare's deadass like, this is it type shit. And it's like, okay! And Irene's like, the fuck, the fuck, the fuck, the fuck the fuck, fuck, fuck. Boy gets in, right? To the spot. Angry as shit. And he's like- my favorite line:
[01:40:18] John: You liar!
[01:40:21] Felise: Careful. You're the only white man here.
[01:40:28] John: You dirty liar.
[01:40:30] Pearl: But also understand, nobody knows who he's talking about. They're like, umm I promise you, no one is is here!
[01:40:35] Sophie: It's like, my dude, how did you get here? Sir, you are lost.
[01:40:39] Pearl: Your wife, deadass, is not here. You are definitely lost.
[01:40:42] David: She was! She ain't coming back. But that's another conversation. But so I'm curious in regards to the book. So we see my- John, not my man, John comes in aggressive as shit, this that the fifth. And to me, what I saw was Irene tried to protect Clare as John lunges forward in an anger. Sort of like, You coming with me type shit. But like, who knows what the fuck that was gonna happen- there's so much in the air in these small movements. And then Irene, to me I was at first like, oh, she's trying to step in and protect. But there's this push, and the next scene we- the next...
[01:41:27] Caullen: You don't see a push.
[01:41:29] David: The next cut we see.... is Clare is smack dead in some snow. And also what I thought was interesting was like, Oh, she might not be dead. So like not only are we-
[01:41:39] Caullen: she jumped from this window and several stories.
[01:41:41] David: This, that. And so what I'm curious is to hear a little bit more about y'all, what were the distinctions between that final scene from the book to the film? And then I would love for us to dissect a little bit of what that film was. Cause at first I was like, no, he pushed her. And I literally went back, I was like, Let's check this shit out. It was like, no, Irene doesn't even touch Clare. So like, what does she throw herself? So I'm just... questions. There's questions everywhere.
[01:42:04] Sophie: I just wanna read.
[01:42:05] Pearl: Please read it.
[01:42:06] Sophie: Obviously this is my last reading of the day. Page 175. Right after John sees Felise and Irene on the street, and then Clare's not having this self-talk of, why didn't she tell him?
"What if Bellews should divorce Clare?"- Well, she says, "Why didn't I tell him? Why didn't I? If trouble comes from this, I'll never forgive myself. I'll tell him when he comes up." She's just kind of talking to herself.
"What if Bellew should divorce Clare? Could he? There was the Rhinelander case. But in France, in Paris, such things were very easy. If he divorced her- if Clare were free- but of all the things that could happen, that was the one she did not want. She must get her mind away from that possibility. She must. Then she came to a thought which she tried to drive away. If Clare should die! Then- Oh, it was vile! To think, yes, to wish that! She felt faint and sick. But the thought stayed with her. She could not get rid of it."
And then we go to the party. This is Irene's mindset. She's like, No, he can't divorce her because if she's divorced, then Clare's free and she's gonna go after my husband. Ok, but what if Clare should die? The way that it just snuck in. There's violence kind of foreshadowing, intermittently.
And this is the first time it's explicit. "What if she should die?" How would that solve my problems? And the only reason why she pulled it back is cause, Oh, that's not what a woman should think, that's vile. That's so uncouth of me.
[01:43:31] Caullen: The men be doing that shit.
[01:43:32] Sophie: And then- I liked and stylistically for the movie, the last thing I'll say is- I liked how it played out as accurately as in the book, as well. Cause it was, her hand goes over Clare. And then there's this commotion, and then it's cut to, and you see Irene- and Tessa Thompson be acting acting! Irene looking like, what just happened? And just that shock, and that trauma. And just the dissociation, honestly.
[01:44:03] Pearl: It is pure dissociation. It takes her the longest to go downstairs.
[01:44:07] Sophie: Everybody downstairs. She's upstairs chilling.
[01:44:10] Pearl: Everyone is immediate. And you don't notice it because it doesn't actually change in the film. There's not like, a movement- or in the book. But you notice that time has passed. The police are already there by the time she starts running downstairs.
[01:44:22] Caullen: Black neighborhood in the 1920s, police don't come that quick.
[01:44:27] Pearl: I cannot. But there is a moment, we get to slowly watch her go down each stair. By the way, these buildings, they are the loudest stairs on the planet. Like you get to, and then you look down, we get to see the people. Everyone is already down there. All of it's already happening. She has fully dissociated from herself.
But there was a moment, and I will say this because I made Caullen reverse. That was the only one that I was like, Baby, you can't look down! Because there was that moment when they're both- when she realizes that her husband is here when they were like, Baby, you're wife ain't here- and he was like, I know. What did he say in the film? He's just like, I understand what's happening here. I've seen Feldman's or something?? There was a moment where he's like, I've watched..., what does that even mean, sir? So he comes... I have BET... He comes into the space and she lifts her body off of the wall. She comes around. And they're looking at each other. There's a moment, there's a look. There is a look between Irene and Clare. The look on Irene is almost a very subtle nod. But in the book, you get to see Clare. Clare, and her, beautiful smiling mouth. Her full lips. Red lipstick. That part! That's like, we are both in agreement that something needs to happen. Because in the movie we learn, on the stairs when she says,
[01:45:54] Clare: Why, to get the things I want so badly, I'll do anything. Hurt anybody. Throw anything away. Anything. I'm not safe.
[01:46:14] Pearl: So in that, then we have this party. There is that moment. Do I believe, I don't know if she pushed her, I don't know if John pushed, I don't know. But I do realize that between those two women in that moment, there is a... something passes between them.
And whatever happens, I feel, me personally as Pearl, I feel that when she hits that ground between the dissociation, all of the mirage of what has happened, the entire film drops. All of a sudden the husband doesn't look like a crazy sex fiend who wanted Clare the entire time. He's holding his wife like, Baby, I don't even know her. Who? So he's holding her like- we get to, we jump out of Irene's full breakdown. And we're outside of it like, oh baby, this is what it was the entire time? Have we just been? So no one has been living in this world with you, and now we are no longer living. It's almost like a sigh of relief. We get to jump out of her full on breakdown; and we get to see it for what it is. And then it's gone. So we don't get to dissect it. We get to see it... slowly... fade... over.
[01:47:25] Sophie: But I love how the husband is the only one that is kind of with us. He's like, Oh, please stop. You're gonna make yourself sick. He's coming into it like, What is going on? Everything that you just expertly dissected, you only see that flicker of the-
[01:47:40] Pearl: The husband is so confused.
[01:47:41] Sophie: He's trying to make sense. And he's like, Oh no, no, no.
[01:47:45] Pearl: But I thought you barely liked... I thought you barely... I thought you didn't really like.... Why are you acting like this?
[01:47:49] Sophie: He's like, Don't do this, you're gonna make yourself sick. Cause in the book she's heaving. It's like she got the Holy Ghost. Crying, sobbing. She's un-
[01:47:57] Pearl: But so many things happen in that moment. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:48:00] Sophie: And it ends on them saying, Oh yeah, the husband must have done it. He was just really upset that his wife was consorting with those Negroes.
[01:48:07] Pearl: Yes. And that's why the police keep asking over and over in the film. Over and over, Are you sure? He didn't push her? This man? He didn't push her?
[01:48:13] David: Are you sure it was an accident?
[01:48:14] Sophie: One of the last lines is you hear John saying, "Nig! Oh my god, Nig!" And it's written as genuine concern.
[01:48:22] Caullen: Oh totally. And that's how insidious this shit is, man.
[01:48:23] Sophie: So you're really fucked up man.
[01:48:26] Pearl: Cause even though he knew,
[01:48:27] Sophie: even though he knew, he probably would've- I mean after maybe the trauma and we're just speculating at this point. But I mean, for whites, the white urge to save face, they'll bury anything. Didn't they bury your girl in the..? Talking about the Kennedys. Chappaquiddick? Didn't they leave her there? The white urge to bury everything, to not taint the illusion or the image of what they want. I think he would've still stayed beside Nig, and Margery.
[01:49:00] Pearl: And at 8:30 in the morning with Caullen I was explaining, I said, Let me tell you something; yes, he definitely had concern, I agree with you and I believe that, yeah. But I also believe that, and this is my own speculation, that he would've taken her in. But there would've been a level of violence in that house. You ain't going nowhere, you ain't doing nothing. And I can pretty much do whatever I want.
[01:49:22] Sophie: Wait, worse violence than the disdain he's gonna have for the daughter that he has to raise?
[01:49:25] Pearl: Oh, that's what I,
[01:49:25] Sophie: And the violence that's gonna go to her?
[01:49:27] Pearl: That's what I said! That poor kid is never going to know. Ever. I said the exact same thing. I said, that poor kid, he gonna get up and be like, So 23 Chromosomes, Huh? This? This what I got to show for? You think she's gonna be loved? She ain't never coming back from Switzerland.
[01:49:47] Sophie: He's not gonna tell her how the mom really died. He's gonna bury all of it. And then, now- and we're talking about intergenerational trauma and what that's going to do for her and her meaning making. But also too,
[01:49:57] Pearl: she will never see sunlight.
[01:49:58] Sophie: To go back to Clare's aunt who said, We're not gonna have any remnants of this tar-brush in our family. I think for him to save face, whether he's gonna see his daughter and the contempt he has for how much she looks like her mom is gonna come out. But also the need to protect her, for the sake of his status. And not have the tar-brush kind of taint that legacy. It's just all really gross. And my unpopular opinion is.. I think Clare jumped.
[01:50:31] David: I mean,
[01:50:31] Pearl: let me tell you something.
[01:50:32] David: Okay, that's cool. Wait, Pearl, what do you think?
[01:50:34] Sophie: Male violence.... Listen...
[01:50:36] David: Well, no. Like, deadass, Pearl, what do you think?
[01:50:38] Pearl: I think she got to that point where she could no longer bounce between the two. And there was a moment that she realized that she was willing to do anything, and she was not going back. There was no way. So I feel like that silent look between them two was either; thank God, cause I don't wanna have to do this; but also, I don't want you in my world anymore. But also, I actually can't have either. There is no way. Cause now that he barged in here, the bubble is broken between the friends that I've made. And now they're like, Wait, I'm sorry, what's happening? And so she can't go back regardless on either side. I feel like that there was a moment that she made the only choice that she felt she had, that felt the most, I don't know, secure. The most- it made the most sense.
And I feel like yes, she allowed herself to go out of that damn window. And to be like, well I ain't going back. And I can't make it out of this one. So I'm gonna do the thing that I feel is the best choice. And we'll never really know, but I feel like there was a moment. That moment that passed between them two was like, you go-
[01:51:39] Caullen: it's about to go down.
[01:51:40] David: It's so interesting, cause when I was watching it- Okay, first time I watched it I was like, Damn, Irene, you really just pushed this girl out the window! Second time I watched it, I was like, Man, it was fucking John. John came in aggressive as shit. If he hadn't have come in, homegirl... like... nothing, nowhere. Cause I couldn't sit with the fact that I was like, No, this chaotic being that wanted full control, is gonna take her own life. Nah, no, she wants to be above all this. Fuck everything. She's gonna fight this man. She's gonna fight this man type mentality.
But hearing y'all, and sitting with y'all, I don't know... I don't wanna say like, we're all speculating and that's the beauty of media and film. Films like this, specifically. But I can see her throwing herself now. A little more than originally; I was like, nah. Cause what pissed me off at the end is, once again, these cops were like, Oh, so you, Mr. Blah blahblahblah, so it was an accident, right? It was an accident, right? It was an accident. I was like, no motherfucker! He came in, aggressive as shit, tried to fight motherfuckers. And then he like-... I would've been like, He did it. He did it. He did it. But that's not what we get. Also, I'm being mindful that this was 1920s, so that's not gonna fly.
[01:52:51] Caullen: Pearl, you mentioned something this morning about him lunging out at her. I forgot what it was exactly, but I think my response was, her doing this, she has power over it. She chose to do it. She has control over it. And though we know her as someone who likes power, and likes control, patriarchy is a hell of a drug. White supremacy is a hell of a drug.
[01:53:10] Sophie: Male violence is a hell of a drug.
[01:53:12] Caullen: Heteronormativity is a hell of a drug. All these things. And so, she hasn't actually had agency in power in this way. So this is a way she can kind of do that for herself in some weird, twisted kind of way.
So that's what took me to that conclusion the most. And again, it's speculation. We'll never know. It was probably written that way, filmed that way. But that's what I think from everything we've seen in this 40 minutes- or hour 40 minutes.
[01:53:37] Sophie: Brilliant. It was written that way. I mean, the last two pages is pretty- and the only last, the exchange between Pearl-- not the exchange between Pearl and Sophie!
[01:53:49] Pearl: *commotion*
[01:53:51] Sophie: Freudian slip. There's a lot of that going around today. When John busts in and the exchange between Clare and Irene; "There was even a faint smile on her full, red lips, and in her shining eyes. It was that smile that maddened Irene. She ran across the room, her terror tinged with ferocity, and laid a hand on Clare's bare arm."
So it's that whiplash of even just the way that Larson writes. She is terrified because this man is- and it's like, how did John find out? And then there's this, Oh, crap. But if John takes Clare, then she's free, and I can't have that. But then also the affection and the care of just placing her- like Larson didn't write, "she grabbed her arm", right? Or "she thrusted her", or "lunged at her". She said, "she placed her hand on her arm." Shows that whiplash of terror, ferocity, and then care.
And so, yeah, I think it's great that it's up to us to decide. And I think the agency from everything that's taken from her because of oppression, because of patriarchy, because of all those things. And she could give herself a good death; because let's be real, the whole thing about her motherhood, Clare was been honest throughout the whole book. She don't care. She had a kid.
[01:55:10] Pearl: She don't care.
[01:55:11] Sophie: She been not care! And she said, if I didn't have Margery, like I would- you don't know what I'd be doing, Irene. Plainly!
[01:55:18] Pearl: And that's on period.
[01:55:20] Sophie: So for her to, in that moment, like *sound effect*, you know what I mean? To- I don't think we're being reductive if it's to reconcile it as a good death. I can give Clare that, from the bullshit that she's-
[01:55:36] Caullen: some Gladiator shit.
[01:55:37] David: Maximilian death.
[01:55:37] Sophie: Don't even! I was thinking about that. Don't even bring me back to Gladiator, Russell Crow, 2001. I will start crying.
[01:55:44] Caullen: Can we go crazy on that next?
[01:55:46] David: Gladiator, next? I would love to. Joaquin Phoenix, say less.
[01:55:50] Caullen: No promises listeners. We'll figure it out.
[01:55:53] Sophie: No, I think it's a great segway from Passing- a quintessential good death and into Gladiator.
[01:55:58] Caullen: Fucking Joaquin Phoenix is such a little punk in that movie!
[01:56:01] Sophie: It only makes sense! Ooh child! But yeah, I think it's a great way to reconcile that. So I think in seeing how this is very timeless. It's written in 1927. It's 2022.
[01:56:12] David: I would've never known that, too. I was watching the phone, like, Oh 1940s, 1950s, '60s? And I was like, Oh, their phones are kind of weird.
[01:56:19] Caullen: '60's? Were we watching the same movie?
[01:56:19] David: No, cause to me it was- well, no, just, me like, what the fuck? I didn't know what life was like back then. So if I'm watching this shit and I'm like, it wasn't until I started seeing their phones and started watching how they're getting from place to place, I was like, oh no, this is earlier. And even then, I'm not familiar with this history. I'm not familiar with what the world was like. My people were in Mexico... figuring their shit out.
But in that, I love the way y'all were able to break down that last scene. And I'm glad that it sits. Because the one thing that it sits with me is like, at the end of the day, girl looks, Irene looks at Brian and Brian's like, I love you. Grabs her and holds her. And that's what she wanted the entire fucking time. To me, what I'm seeing from this man. Cause, oh you out here, you love her cause she got this. But no, this dude had been on her side toxicly. Yes. Not the best way it could be. Yes. But the film ends in that. It's like, No, I'm gonna be here with you. And this ain't you. This ain't on you. This is something different. And we're gonna get through this.
[01:57:22] Pearl: And I'm telling you, we end with the bursting of this chaotic bubble that is the entire film. We are watching it, the destruction, the super anxiety, the dissociation, the bipolar disorder when it comes to Irene. When that woman lands and we walk down the stairs with Irene, it is gone. Whatever was happening, whatever madness was unfolding, there was a breath. Even I had to exhale. I was like, Well, goddamn, I was just in a mess. And it was a second and it was over. But in that moment you realize, oh, nobody was part of this.
[01:58:02] Sophie: No one. They were all confused.
[01:58:04] David: Everyone was just looking at shit like
[01:58:05] Pearl: Irene was doing this.
[01:58:08] Sophie: Them characters were acting acting. Even the side characters.
[01:58:11] Pearl: And the way they looked at her. They were all looking at her like, Baby, why you look so?... I mean, yes, this is tragic, but also, why you look like that? Like we have all missed something the entire time? Because we are forced to be with Irene, because she is the protagonist. So the entire time, the whole like, "Clare. Clare darling, I haven't seen you, you should totally come by!" And you're like, did she really say it like that? Are you projecting on this? So when she hits that ground, a lot of stuff falls apart. And we are now thrust into the real world and we are like, Oh my God, none of this was real. None of this was actually happening. Or, cause even the husband looks perplexed. Completely like, Baby girl, why you seem so distraught? Yes, sad. But also, who is this? Like we don't even,
[01:59:04] Caullen: Who is this white man?
[01:59:06] Sophie: When he says you're gonna make yourself sick, he's saying this is an overreaction to what I'm seeing. He's trying to console her in that same way. He's like,
[01:59:16] Pearl: So now it just falls apart and we're like, Ohhhhh! So now we're left. We're left, now. Now we have to watch it again. Or you have to read it again. Cause you have to go back and be like, Baby, what was real? Now I'm perplexed. What was real?
[01:59:31] Caullen: Like Fight Club. She was Clare the whole time!
[01:59:35] Sophie: Stop playing games! *overlapping comments* I would've got out. My soul would've jumped out of my body. And I'm like, text you from the morgue: hey guys. Just like, I'm dead.
And that's why I always bring it back to the first 10 pages- or actually, really five. The first five. Irene betrays herself. Five times. Yeah, five. And I think that's just really telling of where it's like- when I kept calling her an unreliable narrator, not in the sense of, just throw her away and there's no nuance and her decision making is very linear and I can't understand her context. It's more so like, I notice when I betray myself. Even menial ways of, man, I know I didn't wanna go out tonight. Now I'm out, and I didn't wanna go, and I'm having a bad time. And I'm having to perform.
[02:00:23] Caullen: I'm having a great time with Caullen, David, and Pearl. It's a blast. It's amazing.
[02:00:24] Sophie: Perform on edibles. Why am I here? And it's that dissatisfaction you have where like, Dang. And it's like, no, you went against your boundaries. But then what that self-talk looks like. I think read the book because the self-talk gives it away.
[02:00:39] Pearl: Yes, it does.
[02:00:40] Sophie: When the whiplash between the self-talk and then her breaking character to talk and insert dialogue and it's very intentional of when she shares what kind of dialogue with Clare that we should consume. It's also really brilliant in the book too. But I think in the beginning you start to see... we're with someone who's not fully connected. And so it only makes sense that it would end this way. But then also too, when it's couched under- cause what I like about its 85 pages of intentional language. Everyone's under duress. Duress of oppression.
[02:01:17] Pearl: Absolutely.
[02:01:18] Sophie: Duress of the different reasons why you're passing and how the trauma in that. And duress that we all can still understand 2022 when we're code switching. When we're navigating these still white spaces every day. The emotional labor that we exert. And in different negotiations that we make: where I live, how I dress, what I eat, how I talk. There's so many different way I think passing is beyond just the physical appearance, and the ineptitude of John thinking that when I see you, you're white. When you're next to a Black person.... hmmm, the math isn't mathing! So I think it's just really interesting how timeless this is. And it's very classic, and there's themes that we're probably all individually, even with our respective ethnic backgrounds, what passing means to us.
[02:02:08] Pearl: And 2022, right? When we think about passing. I will clearly say... when I go- this has happened to me on multiple occasions- I go into a bar, it's a predominantly white bar. Cause I just came from Princeton, so Nassau doesn't have many of us.
But I realize that two things are happening. I walk into a space like that, and someone is being belligerent. If it's a white dude, I'm like, whatever, that's not my problem. But I'm always scanning a room for Black people, period. And I'm always scanning the room for Black women. Because Black men will sometimes, they're just like.... I'm still a man at the end of the day. But Black women- I am not passing, so when I walk into Black spaces, there are plenty of friends that I have that are super white-passing and who can push themselves in a corner and sort of be like, That's not my problem right now.
But I don't have that. So I have two choices. I'm either going to physically make a scene to be like, Don't be like that. And I'm like that person. Or I'm gonna be like, Baby girl, he deserves what's happening right now. But I need you not to do that, right now, in this space. Not in this space. I need to protect you, in this space. So I fall into protection because I can't pass, and I'm never going to be like, Ohhh, THOSE people... ghetto! I'm from the projects. I AM one of those people. But I'm not going to do that. So I fall into the, Baby girl, not right now.
[02:03:39] Caullen: I hear you. I wanna see you tomorrow.
[02:03:43] Pearl: Straight up like, Raymond, RayRay, he acting up. But also, not right now. Not in this space. Not in this space, because I don't want anyone to do anything to you or look at you in any way because also, it will reflect on me. I'm sorry. And I just can't have us both in this space being pushed smaller and smaller. So when I think about passing, especially in this film and in the book, and I think about how it translates- it is timeless. Because I cannot pass, so in spaces I have only two choices, which really for me is only one, cause I'm not gonna denounce you. That's never happening, baby. I'm gonna stand with you. But I'm also gonna be like, take that shit outside.
Really though. And in undergrad when little 18 year olds would get drunk on their first Friday away from home, I would go out on the lawn and see all the drunk passed-out white girls and drag only the Black ones off.
[02:04:39] Caullen: Y'all gonna be fine.
[02:04:41] Pearl: Because here's thing, they're going to be fine and they will not be labeled "those" people. But that one random Black girl is. And I don't care, I will call 911 on my own time, but right now you are getting your Black ass off this law. That's just the end of it.
[02:04:56] Sophie: But then that's it, what is passing? Negotiating the ability to be fully who I am. I can be this three dimensional person. I can exist in this world without having to try. Why is that such a commodity or this length of capital where Clare went, Yeah, I'mma bounce. Because that freedom meant more than anything of my 27 years of existence. And so those drunk white girls get to be fully themselves, and then wake up and then go make policies on our uterus.
[02:05:25] Pearl: Oop!
[02:05:25] Sophie: And not get called out on that.
[02:05:28] Pearl: Come on! Let 'em know.
[02:05:30] David: B'nB! 2022!
[02:05:32] Sophie: Mixed tape coming! I'm kidding.
[02:05:34] Caullen: I love that this has continued over other episodes.
[02:05:38] Pearl: Yeeeees!
[02:05:38] Caullen: I think when I'm hearing you all talk about that, you cannot talk about passing and not talk about these structures at the same time. And the idea of freedom, and all that.
[02:05:47] Pearl: Thank you for tuning into Bourbon 'n BrownTown. Let's close it out.
[02:05:50] Caullen: I thought you were gonna do your close-out, I'm like, yeaaah, son! I've got nothing to add on top of that, but yeah, we cannot talk about passing and these things in this conversation, in this story- the super micro and these interpersonal actions. Obviously, all these systems are at play all the time, but we're talking about these people. It's like four, five people maybe, in this whole, however long this episode's gonna be. But you cannot talk about these interpersonal things without talking about systems. And we know that. But sometimes it takes watching a film, or just having something happen to you, or you doing something. Or just sitting back and being like, Fuck, I need to deconstruct all this shit for myself, for my loved ones, for what have you. So I appreciate y'all bringing that to light in these really brilliant ways.
[02:06:30] David: And we're hoping that our listeners, wherever you come into this game, wherever you come into this picture of this- like this film- hopefully you understand the nuances. And it's difficult, right? Cause I think if I would've seen this film for not "homework", I think I would've been like, Mm, okay.. And I would've just like, maybe not brushed it off, but I don't know if I would've taken it with the amount of thought that we've been sitting with it. Cause I'm watching shit and I'm watching like, Oh, yo, that's Thor's girl. Which is like, *overlapping*. No, no, no, think of it as a layman of sorts. But then slowly, and slowly, of course as lovers of media and good content, I think this film does wonderful things. Outside of it being Oscar-worthy or not. Outside of who directed it or where producers fall.
I'm really excited and I'm grateful that we have the opportunity to be able to dissect it in to a way that is meaningful. To y'all points, it's sitting with us today and it'll continue to sit with it. That's all we can ask about good shit like that. And so, I appreciate y'all hanging out with us again.
[02:07:44] Sophie: Thanks for having me.
[02:07:45] Pearl: Always.
[02:07:45] David: Thanks for doing it in person in the studio. Kiera's in the background just derping. Derp derp! But as always, to all the listeners, from Bourbon 'n BrownTown- stay Black. Stay Brown. Stay queer.
[02:07:56] Caullen: Stay tuned. Stay turnt.
[02:07:58] David: See you for the next one.