Bourbon 'n BrownTown

Ep. 116 - America: The Last Dance?

Episode Summary

BrownTown finally talks Trump 2.0, local collective resistance, the election blame game, and the half century of neoliberalism got us here. As the news cycles have been dominated by Trump, tariffs, Musk, and the MAGA mess, BrownTown speaks candidly on the the first few months of the new (yet old) administration, and how to not only resist the re-branded fascist takeover but unapologetically and collectively fight it and win (without relying on the same institutions that made it possible in the first place). BrownTown also reflects on where the podcast and SoapBox at-large was during Trump 1.0, comparing and contrasting both moments. Caullen and David unpack the Right’s “shock and awe” strategy, Chicago ICE raids and the community response, Trumpism and weaponization of whiteness, and when the manniverse met the broligarchy. As we try to sift through poor analysis of this moment with even worse political actors, we’re left with the words from comrade Asha Ransby-Sporn who proclaims that "we owe it to each other to resist attempts to disorient, divide, and distract us from the reality of government takeover by the billionaire Right […] The conditions of the moment demand that we are clear-eyed enough to meet the conjuncture and find openings for those new paths forward” (In These Times). Originally recorded February 21, 2025.

Episode Notes

FULL TRANSCRIPTIONS HERE!

Mentioned in or related to episode:

Previous BnB episodes on Trump 1.0's first 100 days & Decoding Trumpism
Governor Pritzker's State of the State address
Caullen's Trumpism: A Brief History 2016 article
Voting Stats (1, 2, 3)

CREDITS: Intro soundbite from Jasmine Crockett talking to a reporter; outro music tv off by Kendrick Lamar featuring Lefty Gunplay. Audio recorded by Kiera Battles and engineered by Kassandra Borah.

Episode Transcription

Ep. 116 - America: The Last Dance?

INTRO

Audio clip from Jasmine Crockett talking to a reporter - Congresswoman, Elon and Trump are trying to threaten and intimidate. Are you intimidated? No. What's the answer? Listen, here's the reality. Now, I can't speak for anybody else, but I used to ask myself, if I was a part of the civil rights movement back in the day, what role would I play? Never imagined that I would be able to play this type of role because we know that they had to fight so that seats like this could exist in the Congress in the first place. So as only the 55th Black woman elected to Congress, knowing that people fought for what they could not see, I think that I owe it not only to the generations that came before me, but the generations that are coming behind me. If they could risk their lives, if they could be jailed, if they could be beaten and do it all for somebody that they never knew would exist, known as Jasmine Crockett, then I can do just a little bit by making sure that I raise my voice. If you could speak directly to Elon Musk, what would you say? Fuck off.

BODY OF EPISODE

[00:01:43.010] - David

I'd like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy, David, coming to you from Harambe Studios in Chicago, Illinois. As always, I'm with my boy, Caullen. Caullen, man, how are you doing today?

[00:01:54.050] - Caullen

We really need that, "It's Harambe, nigga!" adlib.

[00:01:58.360] - David

It has to happen.

[00:01:59.460] - Caullen

Every time I see your intro, I think of Chicago, the traditional adlib.

[00:02:03.900]

"This Chicago, nigga!"

[00:02:05.840] - Caullen

But then I'm like, Oh, we need the Harambe. Or "Harambe Comrade". We got to make a Bourbon 'n BrownTown-y. "It's Harambe Comrade!" I'm decent. The ugg comes from this morning. As listeners know, I'm always like, I didn't prepare it enough, ahh! Then we do the episode, I'm like, you know what, we went crazy.

[00:02:23.440] - David

Decent.

[00:02:23.440] - Caullen

That was okay. Normally, I'll cram the time in to prepare it ahead of time. It's not as much as I wanted. But this morning, I, on paper, had the time, but my brain and spirit just wasn't in it. I was like, I want to sit down and research stuff and mess with David's planning sheet. I can't. My brain can't, whatever. So I took a shower. I had some personal time. I took a nap. And after that, I felt good and better. But that was 90 minutes. I looked up, I was like, Oh, shit. Now I have to go to the office and record this episode, I didn't do anything. But previous Caullen would have crammed it out, had the same result on the mic. And present Caullen is like, the work will be there. Take care of yourself.

[00:03:12.310] - Caullen

Which I think is growth and good, but I'm also now feeling angsty about the episode. Because we talk a lot on this program about electoral politics and all the iterations and nuances and direct strategies of grassroots organizing and how we've seen that through history. With the moment we were in, in America, with Trump being President, again, and how we got here. And what the past month and a half has been with his administration, there's just a lot. A lot of work to do, a lot to react to, a lot of takes, a lot of them bad, some of them good, some of them... Sometimes it doesn't matter what they are. We've seen a lot in our social feeds, in our personal circles, and what have you. I'm also just feeling angsty as far as tackling all the things.

[00:04:03.100] - Caullen

That's how I'm coming into this space now. I'm still excited. Took a little shot of bourbon. Had a little piece of edible earlier. With the homies, so feeling decent. I know we'll settle into the conversation. But I wanted to name that disclaimer as far as, I don't feel prepared for this. But also, y'all got my DMs, we can chat about it. That's a long answer as per, but David, how are you feeling?

[00:04:27.910] - David

I just want to start, though, by appreciating what you named. I think I recently have been listening to some of our older episodes for research purposes, which is not what old David would do. I think in this scenario, old David would have been like-

[00:04:42.080] - Caullen

We switched.

[00:04:42.350] - David

You know what I'm saying? The growth. No, I think what I hear, though, and please correct me, but I hope that it's also gotten to a point where you now know that you can take care of yourself because community will take care of what hasn't been taken care of. You know what I'm saying? Granted, that took years of trust, years of us doing this, in certain scenarios- or different scenarios, rather. But I don't know. I think I'm hoping that one comes- or at least helps us bleed into the other because I'm glad that you took the time. Because I also know that all this is in your head. You know what I'm saying? You have it all. Sometimes it's making sure you take care of yourself a little bit, and then the community got you. You be all right. So shout out to that. I'm glad that you were able to take care of yourself.

[00:05:27.290] - David

I'm coming into this space. I think this is our second recording of the year. I'm still feeling the same hype I was from our first one. You know what I'm saying? I'm really excited. I'm grateful. My birthday just passed, so in that, we always have-

[00:05:43.240] - Caullen

Happy birthday to you. [Stevie Wonder - Happy Birthday Song]

[00:05:47.730] - David

It's just moments of reflection. It's beautiful that we've been able and we have the opportunity and the privilege to do that, to be able to have a space to literally do nothing but think sometimes. Sometimes that's the hardest part. I feel that I've gotten that. By that, everyone around me has that a little more and a little different. I think, I don't know, it's just exciting to a certain degree. Because as you're naming, here we are in 2015. It's 2015. Oh, shit. That was old David talking. Here we are in 2025, much of what we're going to be discussing and engaging in is things that already have happened. I want us to keep that in mind as we're going through all the data points and the who said, she said, he said. But before we get in further, I do want to acknowledge our guests in the room today. Caullen, could you introduce our guest today?

[00:06:49.130] - Caullen

With us, we have the one and only.

[00:06:52.440] - David

The one and only.

[00:06:53.450] - Caullen

Harambe X.

[00:06:54.420] - David

Harambe X!

[00:06:55.650] - Caullen

He said, Fuck that slave name.

[00:06:56.800] - David

He said.

[00:06:58.250] - Caullen

Harambe is here with us in body and spirit.

[00:07:02.540] - David

In body and spirit.

[00:07:03.370] - Caullen

Harambe is the mascot of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. What's interesting about this episode is that it's a little bit of a throwback episode. Because we got Trump 1.0, B'nB just started. David, I think in his own words, was newly-ish radicalized.

[00:07:17.260] - David

Newly-ish. I was scared. I was hungry. I was like, What the fuck?

[00:07:20.380] - Caullen

It was a very interesting moment in the country. Harambe was killed by the state.

[00:07:26.910] - David

For those who don't know.

[00:07:27.920] - Caullen

When this white kid got in his space.

[00:07:29.390] - David

His space. He wasn't even doing anything to the kid either.

[00:07:32.660] - Caullen

He wasn't even doing nothing wrong and then they killed him. We were like, No, fuck that. We're going to-

[00:07:40.030] - David

Immortalize.

[00:07:40.110] - Caullen

Immortalize and reify Harambe's spirit in this podcast. That's why when you see B'nB on Spotify, Apple, wherever you listen to this, you see his face and you're like, Let's talk about politics and drinking bourbon and movies, why there's an ape? That's why there's an ape. It had to do with the inception of the podcast. The moment we were in, David was high and went to fucking Jewel, and Harambe made sense. Harambe is here. He's literally here with us looking at the mic. It's not just a bit. He's actually here. We have him in the room.

[00:08:08.900] - David

A few words Harambe?

[00:08:10.140] - Harambe

It's Harambe, comrade!

[00:08:12.400] - Caullen

Bars. Bars! And going back to what I mentioned earlier on in the episode, David, you did some deep diving into our previous B'nB episode when we first started centering- not just Trump the man, even though we did do that. I think that wasn't for not, but also the moment and the ideology of Trumpism and what he represents in Americana. You did some deep diving, listening to past episodes about that. I think what I was going to earlier in this episode also feels like somewhat of a, not recap, but part two, part three, part four thing.

[00:08:50.060] - David

Unfortunately.

[00:08:51.240] - Caullen

Unfortunately. It has special resonance because we were just starting the podcast, just getting some gears going that we didn't have before with Soapbox. It was an interesting moment for us in 2017. I should name that.

[00:09:04.790] - David

Yeah. No, I appreciate that, Caullen. I think to start, I think just uplifting and doubling on what you're naming in terms of where we were as an entity. I think we've talked about it in different episodes and iterations of how you grow something from nothing. But I think what really stuck out to me is I remember at that time, we're talking about the Q1 of 2017, and there was a lot of uncertainty. It was one of the first times where I'm actually questioning everything. I think I was in a very raw moment, in a raw place. As folks, as it happens when you become politicized, when you understand that everything is political. And all these things we preach.

[00:09:52.070] - David

But what I appreciate about the episode is, one, it's one of our shorter episodes, and I didn't realize how short it was. So definitely go peep it out. It was "Trump's first 100 days" is what we put it under. And I think what we were just really highlighting is trying to piece together things that could tackle the problem. And at this point, it was Trump, or at that point, it was Trumpism. And I think your editorial, and I'd love for you to maybe even share a line or two from that that even speaks now.

[00:10:22.700] - David

Because it's like, again, Trump is a scapegoat. Trump is one character. And I think what we were learning at the time, and by "we" I mean as David, is the larger system at play. What brought actually a Trump into the main sphere? How his whole "drain the swamp" was literally bullshit, and how that's not the first time someone bullshits.

[00:10:44.580] - Caullen

That was the first time a president lied?

[00:10:46.460] - David

Yeah, what? To voters? To voters. He's going around campaigning and singing and dancing. I don't know. For me, even going back to listen to that episode, I think, for listeners, I listened to it the first time, just normal. It was difficult for me to listen, but it's like, I have my own things on it. I'm thinking about like, damn, David, why did you say that? You keep using these two words all the time. You know what I'm saying? It's great. Then I listened to it in my car, like sped 1.5 and I had such a good time listening to it. It sounds like we were having so much fun.

[00:11:22.940] - David

At that time, I think you started the episode where- we used to have this thing where we started the episode with like, Man, what are we drinking today, Caullen? I don't I was like, again, we're just trying to figure shit out. You were like, Oh, we're drinking Honey Jack to just sweeten up this conversation or whatever. I was like, Honey Jack never responded to us, bro. Honey Jack never... Apple Cider never responded to y'all.

[00:11:42.090] - Caullen

He's clever. He's handsome. He's charming.

[00:11:44.630] - David

But Caullen, what are we drinking today, though? I think to keep going in this closing circles, not closing circles, opening circles, whatever. But what are we drinking today, Caullen?

[00:11:54.960] - Caullen

I can't tell you the proof because we poured it a little bit ago, but we're drinking a CH Distillery blended Jeppson's whiskey. Is it a bourbon?

[00:12:05.110] - David

Yeah, I'd say it's a bourbon, right? Well, actually, no, that's a good... That's a Tyrus question right there.

[00:12:10.450] - Caullen

We have a couple bottles in the office, low-key, but it is a Tyrus question. To go back to last year's episode with Tyrus from CH Distillery, the master blender. I'm sorry, not the master blender, I did it again. He blends there. He's one of the head blenders at CH Distillery. But no, what was cool was that I think we were starting out, and not to make this too much of a recap episode, but we were starting out and we were very quickly trying to get sponsors for stuff.

[00:12:35.230] - David

I'm thinking that's the way to do it.

[00:12:36.940] - Caullen

Which is egotistical and ballsy, but cool. We were like, "Oh, we're going to have this podcast, it's going to work. We're going to do this thing." We're still doing it now so I guess part of that's true, part of it's like, Why were we doing that? We didn't have anything to show. But now we recorded an episode at CH Distillery in Chicago's West Loop. Shout out to Tony. Shout out to Tyrus. Tony is a partner there. Tyrus is the lead or head blender there. We have a couple of bottles from them and did an episode there, and we may do a live episode there this year in 2025.

[00:13:08.480] - David

Hashtag goals.

[00:13:08.790] - Caullen

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that the world was in a certain point of disarray, at least more obvious state of disarray in 2017. It's in that same moment now. Hopefully, that's been our road, a little bit, as far as systems and how the world always worked, but it's more obvious now with Trump, which we'll get into. But I think Soapbox and David, you were what? Six months, seven months in to-

[00:13:30.060] - David

I mean, we went to DC. That was our first thing together, right?

[00:13:33.190] - Caullen

Yeah. So Soapbox taking this big shift and not just being me, right? For one. And David coming on, other folks helping out. Us having this new tier of leadership, of capacity, of energy, of analysis was big. And I think also now we have made great strides and are on this tier of hiring more folks on, expanding what we do, trying to make sure we don't work too hard and fuck it up. But also make what the next eight years are going to look like, and that starts now. It feels really exciting in a lot of ways. Also terrifying, for example, where the world's at and some of the hope and also the despair I still have, at least from how people are moving. I have to put myself in that bucket, and we'll get to that later.

[00:14:22.210] - Caullen

But all this to say, back then, we were shouting out what we were drinking. We were leaning into the bourbon part of Bourbon 'n BrownTown a little too much. A little too much. My mom would argue.

[00:14:33.560] - David

I was enjoying it.

[00:14:34.100] - Caullen

My mom would definitely argue. Now, not that we're not drinking on the pod, but we're a little more sensible about the craft. We've developed a lot more relationships in those eight years. It's mainly in the movement building world in Chicago, also in some film and creative entrepreneurship world, but also in, I guess, the bourbon world, the bourbon restaurant world. Then, David, you were very much in that industry a lot more back then as well. It's just nice to see how the importance of building relationships has been learned upon, for both of us, in all the ways.

[00:15:14.520] - Caullen

Then even personally, growing and learning, getting tools and all the things that happen in interpersonal relationships as well as more broadly, and that's extended to our work at B'nB. And then being homies with Tony, he goes to my fitness classes. I tell him to do burpees, put his hands up, and he does, and he's going crazy. And then I'm like, Hey, you're at a bourbon place. That's great. Let's link up. And then we have this great relationship with him now.

[00:15:38.270] - David

They probably fuck with what you do and what you say. You know what I'm saying? It's also like there's-

[00:15:41.620] - Caullen

I hope so, cause I be out here.

[00:15:43.210] - David

Well, you know what I'm saying? That's what I'm trying to get at, though. I think, to me, to bring it back to the episode in terms of- we started that episode with worry and where the fuck is this going to go? It clearly did something like birth- not birth, but helped evolve an entity like Soapbox. It didn't just survive. It made it stronger, some would argue. That's, I guess, part of the excitement for me in thinking of where we are now. It's like, cool. If we were this in 2016, imagine what kind of growth we'd have. But okay, we are this now in 2025.

[00:16:25.010] - David

Because let's also think, okay, we had Trump for four years. Some shit wasn't great, COVID happened, whatever. Biden came in, and it's not like anything got any better. Let's also be clear about just because Trump was not in office does not dictate that everything was kumbaya. You know what I'm saying? I think Biden gets.... It's been really interesting to see what he gets attacked for these last four years, whether it's his son or him just being old and dying in front of us on live television. You know what I'm saying? I don't know. I'm not trying to make fun of this dude. That's not what we're trying to do necessarily, but it's unfortunate that that's what he had to do. Then they're trying to make him run again?

[00:17:04.550] - Caullen

No, I'm saying you're doing elder abuse. It was a joke.

[00:17:07.050] - David

No, and then they make him run again. Not they make him run, but he tries to run again at the start of the presidential elections. One of the things I want to do as we get into the more deeper of the conversation is, let's just look at some of these facts. I think oftentimes when we're there- it's the first week of November and you're looking at polls, you're like, How are you doing? Who's voting for what? I know amongst us, there was a conversation of like, Okay, we're writing in. Who are we writing in? Or we're voting third party.

[00:17:34.560] - Caullen

Bill Ayes wrote in me. It's on record.

[00:17:36.220] - David

He wrote in you?

[00:17:37.430] - Caullen

I don't know if he did. He was on this podcast saying he's going to write in Caullen.

[00:17:40.210]

[audio clip of Ep. 110 - Democratic National Convention: From 1968 to 2024, Pt. 1] Because I live in Illinois, I'm voting for Caullen.

[00:17:43.690] - David

That's so awesome.

[00:17:45.050] - Caullen

I doubt it, but hey, we don't know.

[00:17:46.940] - David

Well, actually-

[00:17:47.780] - Caullen

It's a known unknown.

[00:17:48.430] - David

No, we don't know if it's Caullen, but there are some data points here that I want to point out. But just to recap some of this, and let's understand that only 64% of eligible voters actually voted. And so this means that 90 million motherfuckers did not do a mail-in ballot, didn't walk to their polls, didn't give a fuck. 90 million people. What I think is ever more interesting is Trump won by 77. And so there was more people who did not vote than the people who actually voted for one of the many candidates. And so I think that's very important that I want to make sure is understood that in a world where electoral politics is the 100% solution, if these 90 million motherfuckers vote, Trump doesn't win, right? I guess. We're hoping-

[00:18:34.820] - Caullen

Who did they vote for?

[00:18:35.790] - David

Well, okay, that's a good question. But just think about 90 million motherfuckers didn't vote! I've always known that voter turnout is never great. Even in our own mayoral elections here, only 30% of Chicago voted or Cook County or how the fuck they vote for that shit. I think that's interesting to name when people are like, Oh, but if all these leftists would have actually voted for Harris, Harris would have won.

[00:19:00.310] - Caullen

Which isn't even true with the numbers.

[00:19:02.460] - David

We're looking at these numbers. So Trump won with 77, a little more than 77. Harris lost with about 75.

[00:19:08.240] - Caullen

Million.

[00:19:08.550] - David

I also wanted to name... Million, thank you. I also want to name that Kennedy, who dropped out like fucking weeks before the thing, actually got almost three million votes. Three million motherfuckers are lost. Okay, not lost, but they need help. Why you vote- the same dude... I mean, we've roasted him in another episode, so y'all probably know. Then we go into the actual third party numbers. And so of all the votes, it was actually only about 1.7 million third-party votes. Which we have talked about in previous episodes, I don't think we've gotten to the nitty gritty, and I don't know if it's necessarily worth it or not. But I think something to name is third-party getting 1.7 votes, 1.7 million. And much of that is being divided amongst four people. I know we talk-

[00:19:50.250] - Caullen

One could argue maybe they should have all gotten together and coalesced under one lefty candidate. But that's just me. I don't know.

[00:19:55.080] - David

The data tells us that Stein was it. Of the four, Stein got 862,000. 31,000 of that was in Illinois. That's one of the biggest states that she got. Yeah, just data points. And then moving into how Illinois voted, Harris won. She had over 3 million votes. Eighty-thousand motherfuckers in Illinois voted for Kennedy. That's what I was trying to say, those lost souls. There's 80,000 lost souls in the state of Illinois. 31,000 voted for Stein. And then about less than 2.5 million voted for Trump. Just looking at this.

[00:20:29.860] - Caullen

De la Cruz?

[00:20:30.070] - David

What happened?

[00:20:31.570] - Caullen

Cruz?

[00:20:32.620] - David

De la Cruz got 166,000. But I'm surprised West was still with 82. I think we've talked enough about electoral politics, but I think this definitely highlights... I don't know, highlights things that, to me, deflate a lot of this liberal outrage. Because to me, the Democratic Party responded exactly how they responded in 2016, where all these, "progressive" blue governors, mayors, political people came up and like, Trump ain't coming into our town type shit, kind of how I saw in 2016. I'm curious, Caullen, I think I've named a lot, I've talked through data point, I'm curious where your brain is at and what you're thinking about in terms of connecting Democrats 2016 to Democrats 2025?

[00:21:17.950] - Caullen

Yes, it's unfortunately very scarily similar, I think. The week of the election last year and the election night and election week was just so fascinating to me.

[00:21:31.650] - David

As someone who watches the news.

[00:21:33.840] - Caullen

Yeah. And the months after, and then when Trump starts doing bad things, this year, there's a blame game. There always is with all this stuff because he has the populace- not the populace- but the pundits. I think people to a certain extent, too, who treat it as a sport. There's someone to blame. It's very clean cut. It's very black and white, whatever. This voting bloc voted for this person for these reasons, that was it, whatever. But there's always a blame game. I think it seemed like liberals blamed leftists, and right wing folks blamed woke and like...

[00:22:07.150] - David

Whatever that means.

[00:22:08.400] - Caullen

Whatever that means. And leftists blamed everyone, and I include myself in that. But the Liberals and centrists blaming leftists, or blaming anyone who didn't- who voted for third-party. Especially folks who live in Illinois, I'm like, it doesn't make sense to me, 1) by the numbers, and 2) by the like, electoral college exists. Are you unaware of this? Are you unaware of history, how Illinois votes? Also, we knowing this huge piece that shift things a lot for folks. Maybe that's unfair to say, but the genocide of Gaza and Palestine. It's like, Hey, is there a time we're going to stop voting for literal folks committing genocide? I don't know when that will be fully or when we'll demand more of ourselves and the people around us and the people that currently govern us in a way that is actually democratic.

[00:23:03.890] - Caullen

You mentioned how Democrats moved in 2016, and how they move now. You could argue in 2020, as far as moving in really overt, obvious, measurable, documented ways to have a centrist or more- I would just say centrist candidate, get on the ballot, whether it's a primary or to go around having a primary and then having a de facto nominee. I don't want to dwell too much on the past, but I do think we learned how to move in the future in a certain way. I think with Biden, again, dying in front of us folks were like, Hey, we didn't have a primary to have someone else run. He shouldn't run again. Obviously, he did. Urged for so long. So long, so long, so long calls were coming from inside his party, from people saying, This shouldn't be the thing.

[00:23:48.240] - Caullen

For whatever reason- it was god-awfully bad with the debate Biden-Trump. I'll admit that it was worse than I thought, and I have a very low standards bar for it. However, it was like, y'all didn't know this?! Were you not watching him the past three and a half years? Then I think the alarm bells start coming out about what Democrats, what should we do? Obviously, Kamala Harris becomes, I don't want to say obviously, because it's not obvious to me, but she does because Biden mentions her in his resignation, which forced the Democratic Party to not just have to do it, but then they feel compelled to have to do this.

[00:24:27.090] - David

They wanted that brat summer, bro.

[00:24:28.240] - Caullen

They wanted that brat summer and the Dick Cheney joy vibes that somehow lost the election. But I think what was interesting is that, David, you always tease me for watching too much corporate news, and it's a fair tease. But I actually, when big stories come out, I'll go to MSNBC and I'll go to Fox News. Sometimes I'll go to CNN.

[00:24:48.940] - David

Oh, so you just go left, right.

[00:24:49.710] - Caullen

Just to see... Or right, right. Hmmmm! Right, rightER. But it is interesting seeing how big stories come out and what the narrative and how they're talking about them. I forgot what MSNBC said, just like, Oh, my God, this happened. No, not even a Black woman can be President.... Having that conversation. But Jesse Watters of Fox News who's a garbage bag human, I actually agreed with a couple things he said.

[00:25:15.840] - David

Oh, shit.

[00:25:16.620] - Caullen

He was like, Joe Biden is President of the United States. It's been very public and obvious that folks have wanted you to not be the candidate for your party. People on the street as well as your party, whatever, whatever. It's been this conversation on the left for a while- he didn't say all that. But he was like, The reasons that Joe Biden gave, and we'll probably link them on here or something, were just like, "Hey, y'all, it's my time." It's like, So what's the difference between now and a month ago?

[00:25:42.610] - David

My time.

[00:25:43.230] - Caullen

Two months ago, two weeks ago. It wasn't honest. It wasn't honest at all. It wasn't that, "I'm dying in front of you and the party wants me to take a step back so we can beat Trump." He didn't say that. He just said, oh it's my time, I need to leave it to the younger generation. That's not why he did that. It's obvious, but it's like, you're, again, lying to the American people. And he's like, We deserve an honest explanation on why this is happening. In the interweb says, They didn't want Kamala to run either. And so he mentioned it. Sorta like a fuck you to the DNC, which y'all can have your own little internal fight, get your house in order.

[00:26:17.280] - Caullen

But there's no primary. We don't get to choose the president is. In 2020, the centrists rallied behind Biden in real-time, and then a couple of days after the primary so they all dropped out and endorsed him. So it's like, arguably that was shady and shifty. Then Kamala Harris, I think she dropped out before the- even the first primary in 2020 because she didn't raise enough money. And so these two very undemocratically elected folks are the front runners of the party. And we get to this moment we are in now with, Dude, it's been eight years, we've seen Trump once. He loses, I think, for a host of reasons in a different episode. And then he wins again, and folks are so surprised on how this happened.

[00:27:02.635] - David

Baffled.

[00:27:02.950] - Caullen

I understand that shouldn't have happened. Trump is, again, another garbage human. That's not the point. If you listen to this, hopefully you understand that. But it was more for sure in 2016, but not as surprising as it was for most folks, at least for me. Then this go around, I would have been surprised if Kamala won. The writing seemed on the wall as far as how the Democrats were moving, how they have moved, and with the things of the day, that being Gaza; that being people just affording life, affording their ability to live, and a whole host of issues not shifting that much since then. And so folks not understanding- I think it's a lot more complicated than just Trump himself, but to even be in the mindset because their conditions to even try something that new and scary. And again, I'm not screaming for every Trump voter by any means, but I think it's not as simple as folks thought; and thought, catering to the right, again, would be a winning strategy when I would argue part of, part and parcel, a little bit of how 2020 happened was like, watering down a lot some progressive policies during COVID.

[00:28:14.220] - Caullen

So that was a long answer to what you asked as far as 2016 to now, but I see a lot of similarities and some differences. I do think, I guess, my minuscule part of hope in the fall of not seeing Trump again, which, again, would have just made our fight different, not really non-existent. Was it like, we've seen this before, and even folks who were maybe duped and thought: Okay, he's going to do all these things to make my life better and he didn't. Maybe, maybe, you wouldn't do this again, but I think there's a lot of factors there as far as what they thought their options could only be.

[00:28:53.130] - Caullen

We think of a two-party system, how that makes folks- this binary choice that isn't real, but also we understand how money works and how name recognition works and all that. Things aren't as simple as they seem. I think that's a lot to do with the blame game we see now from all parts and all nuances of folks. But what's been getting me angry is people being like, Ah, if you didn't vote for Kamala, Trump is going to be as bad for you.

[00:29:21.540] - David

We wouldn't be here.

[00:29:21.540] - Caullen

Or, See what's happening to Gaza, that's because of Trump. It's like, no, that's because of 15 months of your boy Biden doing it. Are you... I don't want to use ableist language, but what is wrong? How do you not see this? That's what I've seen that has gotten me more than I thought it would. Just being like, I'm confused that you're confused. I'll stop talking, because I've talked a while. But, David, I'm curious- in response to what I said, or just 2016 to now, both at Soapbox or you, or just the moment of seeing Trump 2.0 and the differences and similarities between those moments and how you've seen the Democratic Party or even electoral politics in general?

[00:30:04.320] - David

Yeah, I mean, I think to me, what was- not shocking, but I almost forgot- I think one of the things that we have to oftentimes remember is that the system uses the manipulation of history. The oppressor will always say the story that they want to say. And so what that's to say, is I totally forgot that in 2016 Trump came in and immediately signed 90 executive orders. And so creating exactly what he did again this time, which is this shock-and-awe moment. Which, again, that's a fascist tactic, it's not a new tactic. It's often the easiest to employ because when people are in chaos, when there's so much shit, it's hard to put all the fires out at one time.

[00:30:49.990] - David

I think what I was impressed by is how Trump has also himself evolved and moved differently. I think last time in 2016, we really talked about who he brought to the table with himself. At that time, it was this one motherfucker, I don't remember his name, but he had gotten fired by somebody. Then Trump was like, No, he's good, let's bring him back. So his cabinet position at the time was not great people. But he intentionally surrounded himself by these people to be able to pull off what he pulled off for four years. To me, this time around, it's kinda like he also knows; he's like- Okay, I've been here before, what are all the buttons I can push? I know all the buttons I can push, I don't actually need nobody.

[00:31:31.660] - David

And my boy literally starts by rescinding 78 executive orders from Biden. Which we're like, Oh, well, what does that actually include? And I just want to name some of these executive orders that were put on again by Biden. One of them, for example, was "preventing and combating discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation". Okay, so that's been pushed out. Another one that I think is important to name is executive order 14003 "Protecting the federal workforce", and we've seen that. And so my man starts by removing these 78 executive- all of which- like 14035 was "removing diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility in the federal workplace". So all of these things... My man comes in heavy, he comes in swinging.

[00:32:25.390] - David

The other thing that I think is important to name is, unlike 2016, at this point, he has a base, and a lot of which are in jail. And so what does my man do? My man goes in, he's like, I'm going to free my boyyys! And releases January 6th rioters and people who were committing crimes. I'm all about that crime is literally just a word that the system uses... You know what I'm saying? But let's just think about this. He pardons all these motherfuckers. All of them. Everyone's mad about Biden pardoning his son or whatever. Bro, he literally... Sidebar. I think at this point, there's probably three or four different rioters who have been arrested, and one or two of them have been killed since they've been released, either by police or other things. On my... Peep the episode notes.

[00:33:11.100] - David

But it's just thinking about who... We're always worried about when we're talking about the Safe-T Act here- Oh, we can't release criminals back into the world. There's this fear mongering tactic, this dehumanizing tactic. But for these motherfuckers, it's Gucci. No, they're good. They're like, send them back home, and then there are actually problems back home. I don't know. I thought that shit was crazy. That clearly doesn't get as much attention as it should. Why? Because, again, they got to protect their own to a degree.

[00:33:37.840] - David

Then the last thing I'll talk about that I think was interesting is, we had an episode with one of the homies, comrademami, about TikTok being banned. It comes around to the point where TikTok actually gets banned. I don't know if- it got banned for a day. The whole world lost their... The whole America lost their shit. Everyone downloaded RedNote, you know what I'm saying? Everyone was looking at Bluesky, you know what I'm saying? And then Trump comes in as the savior. Not savior, right. But he's like, We're going to give the company- I think it was 75 days or some shit, 90 days, some arbitrary ass number. We're going to give them this much time for them to figure their shit out so that America can ultimately buy it. Because they want to name the issue is like, oh, fucking China's stealing data and shit. When in reality, they're just pissed off about how much TikTok and these apps have been used to uplift and shine...

[00:34:31.820] - Caullen

Yeah, TikTok, say TikTok.

[00:34:31.820] - David

Tiktok, no TikTok, specifically. They help highlight the atrocities that we saw on the other side of the world that we maybe would not have been able to see in that same way or fashion because of the way the app looks like. Because I'm thinking of 2016, it was Twitter, remember that? There's also a thing in that episode 100 where he was like "he's a tweeter in command" or "the commander in tweet".

[00:34:56.240] - Caullen

"Tweeter in chief" or something like that.

[00:34:57.550] - David

"Twitter in chief" or some dumb shit like that. But Twitter can't operate the same way TikTok can. So I don't know, I think it's interesting. Then it was like, Oh, look, Trump actually saved TikTok or whatever. The fact that that was a headline or people were talking about it just shows that with creating chaos they're able to pick and choose, and then what becomes a narrative. One of the things I wanted to talk before I pass it off to you, Caullen, was to me last year when Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens started making sense, I was like, Are we cooked? Is the Democratic Party completely cooked? Is it over? I don't know, man. It's wild. What's the dude.. Alex Jones? Is his name Alex Jones?

[00:35:36.060] - Caullen

Alex Jones.

[00:35:36.770] - David

When I started agreeing with some of the shit he was saying on his... I was like, I can't. We're done.

[00:35:41.730] - Caullen

What kind of things were they saying?

[00:35:43.120] - David

Well, for example, so Tucker Carlson was having a conversation with that one motherfucker from the UK.

[00:35:47.670]

[audio clip from Tucker Carlson Talk Show with Piers Morgan] If you're intentionally killing civilians, you probably shouldn't beat your chest and brag about it. Maybe you can make the case... I agree with that. Maybe you make the case that we had to do it or whatever, but you should weep, and that's evil, and you should say it's evil. And I know it's really threatening to Ben Shapiro to say that or whatever. Is it evil? To kill civilians on purpose? Yeah, it is. I think it is. Really? Kids and children. Well, how is it not actually? In a war? We can call it whatever you want. How is it right to kill women and children? I didn't say...Well, because I think there's a moral right behind you. If you are literally.. To kill women and children? If there's a world war that threatens the entire world, yes. Some people killed your kids like your eight-year-old. How is that morally justifiable? Because actually, you have to.. Well, by your criteria.. That's disgusting. Okay. So no war is morally justified? I think it's pretty hard to justify- I mean, yeah. Any war? A pure defensive action, sure. But all I'm saying, look, it's all ugly. It's all hard to stomach. I've actually seen some of it up close. Super ugly. If you can say that you hate it- the fact you quibble with it being morally justified... To intentionally kill non-combatants, women and children, I think we can say that's wrong.

[00:36:57.770] - David

Tucker Carlson is saying this to this one dude who's even worse than he is...

[00:37:01.360] - Caullen

Piers Morgan.

[00:37:02.160] - David

I'm like, son of a bitch. Candace Owens, I think, said some other things about Harris and how she was the weak... It should have been Michelle Obama. Was that Candace Owens? I don't know if that was...

[00:37:11.610] - Caullen

I would not be surprised and that would be very interesting to play out.

[00:37:15.650] - David

Regardless. But I mean, that's also in the conversation. If the Democratic truly wanted, they could have... Michelle Obama on every poll has everybody beat. I don't know if Michelle Obama even wants that, though. I don't even...

[00:37:26.660] - Caullen

She didn't want Barack to run. She's like, why are you doing this Barack? What the fuck? I'm not trying to... War criminals are war criminals, but I just remember knowing that, and she was like, bro, stop. And he's like, Michelle, I got to be President.

[00:37:39.870] - David

Yeah, well, I don't know. And so to me, I'm seeing the connection between 2016 and how quickly people in positions of power come and abuse their power, whether that's dismantling all the work that has been done previously by successors that were actually positive and helpful and actually advance the human condition. And then you have this also- not grapple with power, but like, again, Trump, 2016, comes in with this terrible group of humans. 2025 he's not doing no better. And I think one of the easiest things to point at is this new Department of Efficiency or the DOGE or the DOGE, or whatever the fuck you call it, which is "made to modernize federal technology and software to maximize governmental efficiency and productivity." This is literally being led by Elon Musk and all the fucking tech boys.

[00:38:38.010] - Caullen

I love how there's a new department to better efficiency. It's like, you should have less departments. I don't know. Yeah.. I think I will speak to what you started with as far as Trump moving in an evolved form. Because my knee jerk reaction is like, it sounds like a compliment in a weird way.

[00:38:58.140] - David

Well, no. I mean, to me, it's also like- and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I think it's important. My man was, after he became president, he was convicted of his... In 2016, one would argue he's not a felon, right? Now he's a convicted felon, right?

[00:39:11.040] - Caullen

Yeah, I kinda don't care.

[00:39:13.360] - David

I think.. Okay, go ahead.

[00:39:16.110] - Caullen

That's how I received it initially, but I think you're right to an extent, because I think he put people ahead of all these departments who were the opposite of the people who should be there, whatever, whatever, terrible people. He's doing that again, but he has Elon Musk and his wealth and power. The base is different and more mobilized.

[00:39:41.260] - David

His base is, yeah, for sure.

[00:39:42.760] - Caullen

I think still... I do think still, at least the base we think of when we think of Trump voters, active, aggressive Trump voters, and Nazis and all the things, are still a loud minority, but it is different and more sophisticated certain ways. And I think one of the most important learnings I thought about, and thought about earlier on when I saw this from 2016 to now, is that Richard Spencer who was the leader of the alt-right back then, which was this Nazis in suit and ties, the white boy, just band of Nazi brothers. But it was reformed Nazi movement, but they were just hard right, and they were challenging what they thought was a moderate Republican establishment and all that. That was a big part of this mobilization. It's scary and also just interesting part of this mobilization of folks on the hard right, especially behind Trump.

[00:40:37.400] - Caullen

I don't know when it was- maybe we'll find it in the episode notes- but there was an interview with Richard Spencer, at least a couple of years down the line, of Trump being President. They were like, Yo, Richard, where are your boys at? We don't hear the alt-right anymore, we're not seeing alt-right in different spaces or a bunch of think pieces or whatever. Richard Spencer was like, They're the Republican Party now. I don't have to do it. There's not alt. The Republican Party is what we were trying to push them to be. We did our job. *brushes off hands* I'm like, I'm going home. I'm going to sleep.

[00:41:10.580] - Caullen

I think now that's very much true. You saw in the midterms in 2018, maybe even 2020- I don't know the numbers and what exactly happened, but I feel there was this idea for Republican Congress folks and senators and people in government- How are you going to run? You're going to run as a "moderate Republican" or "establishment Republican". Or are you going to run as a Trump? As a MAGA Republican? That was part of the brand. Now, the Republican Party as an establishment, I wouldn't even say back, I don't think it swung that far away, but it's a party of Trump. I have no reference for a Republican Party, especially for a Democratic Party, but I do think it is worth noting that very interesting shift. It's him saying, This is the alt-right, now it's just the Republican party, it's the establishment now. I think that feeds into how the right does what they want, moves further and further right.

[00:42:16.210] - Caullen

The Democratic Party, I will say, the establishment "Left," big air quotes there, instead of moving further left or just doing right by people and trying and not use buzzwords, but just do right by people for policy, move to the right. We saw that at the DNC, we could do episodes about that. Kamala Harris talking about the most badass military. She didn't use that language. We're talking about how we're going to build the military up, how we can't have Palestinian speakers, how we can have cops on the stage and how when they asked her, How are you severing yourself from the Biden administration? She's like, Oh, I'm going to have Republicans in my cabinet.

[00:42:53.520]

[audio clip of Kamala Harris on The Howard Stern Show] Listen, but the thing about Liz Cheney, let me just say, she's remarkable.

[00:42:57.075]

[The Price is Right losing horn]

[00:42:57.660] - Caullen

Trump's not saying that. Why are we courting the right, courting systems of violence with a new face, younger face, a Blacker face? Sounds weird. But a female face and it's leading into this idea of just wanting certain people who may look or have maybe some experience in these positions of power that are literally genocidal. It's like, at what point, which bomb is too many bombs? How much violence is too much violence? When is it going to be a point to take a look at this crazy circus that is all American electoral politics- but the DNC was just so odd. It was just so odd- while calling for all these good, pretty things, and not codifying them into policy.

[00:43:47.720] - Caullen

All that was to say, I started with how Trump and the Republican party were moving and how Democrats move right and whatever- that's been a thing for years. But I think how Trump is now is very much the same in a lot of ways, but also aligning himself with the private industry, especially tech, especially having Tim Cook, Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, the dude from Google, Elon, of course, at the inauguration, and really courting them in a way that we didn't see before. Money and politics is nothing new. I think that's the conversation around Elon, which I personally didn't really expect it to look how it does, but this idea of it is obvious now how much tech and money have influence in politics, but we would not adjust and organize and move in the right way if you don't understand this was always the case.

[00:44:40.910] - Caullen

Is it heightened in the ways that matter? I think arguably, yes. Is it heightened the way we see it? Of course. But oligarchy has always existed in this country. It was founded on slavery. Slavery was the big part of how capitalism started in this country. That led to dehumanization because people wanted to not believe they were enslaving actual humans. They wanted the bag, so they had to like- Oh, well, there aren't humans, I need this bag. It was like, separating ourselves from that idea that this has always been the case, but also honoring that it is different in a certain way now.

[00:45:14.920] - Caullen

And when I have looked or felt the same if it went in a different way, it's I think, also true and fair. I have been grappling with, since the election now, how to understand the past. Just a couple of months ago as well as decades and centuries ago, how this is not new, how we got here because people are pacified because of either a Democrat in office or just things are good for them or not looking or feeling a certain way or just believing the myths of Americana and believing the myths of the American dream.

[00:45:51.120] - Caullen

I think that is important. But also I know I'm just petty sometimes. Sometimes I'm like- Are you just being petty in that for a certain reason? *laughing*. You want to hear yourself talk, and/or wanting to help understand that for myself better, communicate that to the world, give folks entry points to movement that feels good and is actionable. And also, how do we also understand that the moment now is different and that our friends who may have been deported later under a Harris administration- as we know Democrats like to do- It is more people, more often, and both lawful and unlawful as far as how the administration is moving, then it would be otherwise. And that is real. That is the difference we should talk about and mobilize around and do something for. And like we saw in 2017, with the Muslim bans, a lot of that policy and rhetoric, we're still seeing that policy and rhetoric, don't get us wrong. But we're seeing, at least I'm seeing more on my feed, and stuff around immigration and deportations.

[00:46:58.700] - David

The enemy has changed.

[00:46:59.670] - Caullen

Especially Chicago, sanctuary city. And that seems to be more the energy that is now, and I know you've had a lot of thoughts and feels on how you've seen that, both in all the buckets we talked, chatted about. Anything you want to touch on with what I said, I know it was a lot. But also, specifically, that transition to what is happening now, but also how do we look at the past to do better in the future. I see it being very broad: you and I, organizers, communists, leftists, also, I mean, liberals too. Should we say, Forget them, and just kinda figure it out? What do we do? Because there's a lot happening, lots to understand, but also there's a lot to do and we got to start somewhere.

[00:47:37.220] - David

I think to me, we got to start with looking at the facts, looking at data centers, looking at primary sources, or hear it from the camel's mouth type shit. Again, going back to Trump's 100 days, I don't speak about it too long, but there's one, two lines that I'm clearly working in the industry, and there was a scare for a week or so of people getting deported. It just reminded me of here, I think it was probably more than a few weeks. I'm trying to also get better, just a better understanding. But if you look at the data points, Obama deported hella people.

[00:48:20.938] - Caullen

Hellas.

[00:48:21.550] - David

Hella.

[00:48:22.350] - Caullen

That was the actual data point.

[00:48:24.040] - David

I think at this point is Trump- I think he got Trump and Biden beat. But that's not how we think about it. And again, maybe because I don't recall and I was maybe too young to see how community was moving. But with Trump moving the way he's moving, it like, okay cool. It's incredibly dangerous. It was wonderful, actually, just to see how quickly community moved. We talked about how the Democratic Party reacted the same way in 2016. Governor Pritzker came out in his state of the- State Address or whatever the fuck they call it. To a certain moment, I was I'm like, All right, cool. Yeah, I'm an Illinoisian, you know what I'm saying? We don't got to worry about federal cuts because we've been building Illinois up and type shit. I'm like, All right, cool, I almost got nationalistic and shit. But still then, unlike 2016 David, I'm looking everything with more of a grain of salt and seeing like, Okay, my man's just trying to play moves. He's clearly have this thing against Trump, and he's clearly showing... One of the things that I just appreciated him hearing, and again, this is because the bar is so low. He's like:

[00:49:29.860]

[audio clip of JB Pritzker at the 2025 State of the State budget address] Going along to get along does not work, just ask the Trump-fearing red state governors. *Applause.* You can boo all you want until your constituents lose these services. Those Trump red state governors are dealing with the same cuts that we are, and I won't be fooled twice.

[00:49:59.730] - David

And so it was just cool to hear because he's talking about how in 2020, in order for his city to get masks and shit, he basically kissed Trump's ass for a little bit. And then Trump sent shit, but it was broken, whatever the fuck. He goes on to get the nitty grittiness. But to me, it's like, okay, cool, here's people who, Pritzker in our world, he might be running in 2028, realistically.

[00:50:19.070] - Caullen

He's definitely running.

[00:50:20.320] - David

For that and just hearing everyone in the Illinois assembly like, blaah. I don't know. There's clearly people who at all levels are reacting. From our governor reacting the way he did; to our mayor. I know we all have all the feelings about, "Barely Minimum Brandon", but he came out and was like- Yo, said a couple of bars that hit the news. Then it was like, Oh, progressive mayor. I was like, he just spitting the- he's just saying exactly what it is. Y'all didn't bat an eye when it was white, blue-eye, blonde hair motherfuckers who were looking for refuge and finding a home away from home type shit. But now that they're Brown and they don't speak English, y'all give a fuck. That's basically what Brandon said. I'm paraphrasing, I'm paraphrasing.

[00:51:08.420] - Caullen

But not much.

[00:51:09.010]

[audio clip of Mayor Johnson delivering press conference on January 15, 2025] What I do find interesting is that when 30,000 Ukrainians sought asylum here in the city of Chicago, nobody said a mumbling word. But all of a sudden, Indigenous people who are trying to get to a land that was robbed from them through colonization, they want me as a Black man to be mad at them? You got to be out of your freaking mind if you think I'm going to allow white supremacy to divide Black and Brown and Indigenous people in the city of Chicago.

[00:51:44.960] - David

It's cool. And again, we look at and the importance, again, I look back at David 2016, I'm like, Man, what the fuck? How the fuck we going to move? 2025, I was like, Yo, it's local, it's local, bro. It's your neighborhood. It's who's on your block. For us, this city, we're blessed, again, to be in a city like Chicago, given all the shit it carries, given all the history it has, there's a reason why it's Chicago. You feel what I'm saying? To me, it only makes me be prouder of it, but then also makes me want to hold it to a higher standard.

[00:52:13.040] - David

I think to your question of oligarchs, I don't know, man... I think to me, and again, this is sometimes where it gets sometimes complicated for your average person who doesn't have time to read. Maybe they watch 15 seconds of news. You know what I'm saying? They get some shit on Facebook. I'm just thinking about how we process information and the fact that so much information is being pumped out, oftentimes misinformation. I think with the raids this year in compared to 2016, maybe it's because, again, I wasn't on as much social media or whatever. But it was almost like we overcorrected on providing information to one another that we only created chaos and panic because it wasn't actual proper information.

[00:52:54.110] - David

One of the one things that I think- and I don't know if we talked about it on B'nB already, but there was whispers and murmurs of ICE trying to get into a CPS school or whatever. A couple of days later, it's like, no, it's actually some government party or whatever- not ICE, was there for something else. But again, it just got so conflated that motherfuckers literally started going to the school to pick up their kids because they were worried about ICE. And so, again, that's, I think, one of those moments where we have to continue to take care of one another for sure. But understand that we can't be doing what they're doing in terms of autocorrecting like a motherfucker.

[00:53:29.790] - David

And I think immediately you saw a lot of community members, and what I think we talked about a lot in that episode, too, it's like, get engaged, find a movement home. And at this point, a lot of those organizations like OCAD, like BPNC, like ICIRR, who that's like their bread and butter, were available and at the position to be able to provide actual useful information to their communities, engage with politicians and your refugee centers along with your immigrant communities. Because it's not just like, we ain't just fucking talk about a Little Village, we're also talking about Chinatown. We're also talking about little India. We're also talking about Albany Park. You know what I'm saying? There's so many different communities around Chicago that include, but because it's not Polish and Ukrainian, motherfuckers don't care. Even though Polish and Ukrainians right now are some of the top immigrants in... Nah, we're worried about the Venezuelans.

[00:54:21.230] - David

I think what that also did, it uncovered evermore is the internalized racism that a lot of our communities have. I'm speaking for the Latino community, but it was so disheartening. I think we had a total of 40, 47% of Latinos voted for Trump. I'm ever more excited to go into the nitty-gritty of that in terms of just data points. But it highlighted to me and it exemplified that white supremacy is still on top of the food chain. Why? Because people are constantly, and we're looking the white Hispanics, are trying to assimilate to something that they will never get. But that's not something that they understand. There's still this guise of that American Dream, of like, Oh, I'm working hard, I'm going to vote for Trump. He's trying to drain the swamp in 2016, I don't know. It just sounds all right and it seems like you fit in the next thing you know, you're the one getting deported.

[00:55:21.510] - Caullen

I hear that. I heard that in 2016.... I'll ask it with a caveat: what was that like, this go around? Did you hear the exact same thing? Did it shift or change a little bit?

[00:55:31.550] - David

No, I think it shifted. Go ahead.

[00:55:33.450] - Caullen

Okay. Well, yeah. And it's like, I-

[00:55:34.750] - David

I think it shifted negatively because it was a scapegoat here. Let me just put it like that. I think in Chicago, the demographic of Latinos who I engaged with, the biggest concern was the influx of Venezuelans and Colombians. That was like, and you put that to the T and they're pissed off that, oh, well, when I came in the fucking '90, '92, no one fucking gave me $1,500 a month. I'm like, how much? That's nothing. What the fuck? They can't even pay a rent with that shit. What the fuck you talk about. And then there's also other conversations like, oh, but so many of them say, "cierran de papeles", is the term. It was like, they got their citizenship. It's like, no, that's not even fucking true!

[00:56:09.040] - David

And so to me, I felt that in compared to 2016, there was this heightened sense of internalized racism amongst our own communities. And it's difficult because I think, as Charles Preston put it, Latino communities is not a homogenous group. And so I even sometimes fail to understand that fully. Because I'm like, no, we're Latinos. No, that's not true. Dominicans. And then you look at fucking Argentinians. You know what I'm saying? It's so different and so wide. And it only reminds me of issues that we still have within our communities. Of how we have to talk about... They're playing us in that game of fighting us because this motherfucker is going to take your cookie when that motherfucker has them all on his plate.

[00:56:55.420] - Caullen

You can access this motherfucker. You can't access the one at the top.

[00:56:58.810] - David

And they're immediately right in front of you, right? So I don't know. I think that's probably one of the biggest things in terms of just that vote. And also, I think in comparison, there's more humans in the world. And unfortunately, some of the children during Trump are now adults, and they voted. And they're also caught in this- not anti-feminist way, but I think the other thing to take into consideration and acknowledge from 2016 to '25 is there are more people in the world. And in that, a lot of the children are now adults, and a lot of that we're seeing being influenced by the Tates of the world or the Logan Pauls of the world, which is problematic.

[00:57:43.530] - David

It's like, you're also dealing with a generation of boys who are in their eyes- again, we got to talk more through that, but are feeling that it's bad for them to try to be men, et cetera. I think Trump funnels that. Trump is this beacon, again, we're talking about Trumpism as an ideology, and I think it just gravitates more young people, especially uneducated people. That's the reason why this motherfucker was going for the Department of Education.

[00:58:12.830] - Caullen

And educated folks. I feel like, I wanna hesitate giving that scapegoat. I remember in 2016, white folks being like, I thought college-educated folks would not vote for racism. I'm like, Are you fucking stupid? Oh, my God. Should we look at that demographic and the access to education and all that? Yes. But it's like, plenty of people who are very educated voted for Trump and for their self-interest or others. This idea of the "dumb Trump voter", it's played out and it's a waste of energy and time. You know what that got us? Trump again. You know what I mean? I'm not saying you were doing that, but I just want to name that because I feel like that is a…

[00:58:47.870] - David

To me, the lack of education really more falls under, or at least I think of when I think of it, it's critical thinking skills.

[00:58:55.330] - Caullen

Which is not education formally.

[00:58:57.110] - David

Or the way it's been given to us after fucking what's-his-face realized that he needed more people to work his factories. Which is why.... This is allowing us to all the things that we've been talking about since 2017 are only ever clear. I think, to me, the last thing I want to name before moving on to continue talking- because it's here, it's happening. I think, where are we moving? I think we can speak to a couple more things. But I also want to show and manifest how people power have persevered and how things have moved. There's a reason why ICE raids in the eyes of the Czar, wherever the fuck the immigrants are, his name is like, were unsuccessful because people know too much.

[00:59:37.760] - Caullen

Fuck that guy. That was so cool.

[00:59:39.290] - Caullen

Know too much, type shit. I was like, they just know how to evade arrest or some dumb shit. Then he tried to make himself sound worse.

[00:59:45.910]

[audio clip from Tom Homan talking to CNN's Kaitlan Collins] For instance, Chicago, very well-educated. They've been educated how to defy ICE, how to hide from ICE. I've seen many pamphlets from many of the NGOs, Here's how you escape ICE from arresting you. Here's what you need to do. They call it "know your rights". I call it "how to escape arrest". There's a warrant for your arrest, and they tell you how to hide from ICE. Don't open your door. Don't answer questions.

[01:00:10.260] - Caullen

But by "they" he's talking about Chicago people, specifically. Chicago is a sanctuary city, which is an ordinance, it does mean something on paper. Also people understand that the police, cannot on paper, work with ICE. They probably still are low-key, but they can't do that. But because of the decades of organizing Chicago has done and always done, and done across racial lines, across some class lines, or having some class consciousness, folks knew how to throw down, and they did.

[01:00:39.520] - Caullen

And I'm not entrenchly involved now, or wasn't in 2016 as far anti-deportation organizing. But I will say, obviously folks were deported in his first administration as well, maybe it didn't look like it was now, but I think more folks are tapping, more folks are doing the work, so much so that the border czar specifically called out Chicago for just "we know too much". That feels good. That gives me hope. That shit gives me hope.

[01:01:07.660] - David

I just want to uplift, for those who don't know, OCAD, ICIRR, BPNC, again, along with Raise the Floor Alliance, filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration and his so-called plans to raid Chicago, which is clearly an epicenter of the sanctuary movement. It's like motherfuckers are moving. You know what I'm saying? I think there is, like us, there are plenty of folks who have since expanded their education, deepened their roots with community organizations. Like Caullen, saw it coming 100 yards away. You know what I'm saying?

[01:01:42.390] - David

I think it's so great to see and just so inspiring because, again, then we're looking at boycotts. We talked about boycotts last year with Palestine and Starbucks. But what I'm trying to get at is, we've seen the power of boycotts, and we've seen it again now. I think- I didn't even know this- but Coca-Cola, during that week of ICE fears and raids, apparently called or worked with ICE to target its factories and employees. The Latino community, specifically Mexicans, were like, Fuck that shit. And since then, there's been a massive strike against Coca-Cola, which has been really inspiring to see. So inspiring that my dad, who loves Coca-Cola, for my birthday, made sure that he had Pepsi. And granted, we could talk about that shit.

[01:02:27.180] - Caullen

That's cute!

[01:02:27.910] - David

Who owns what and whatever.

[01:02:29.320] - Caullen

That's cute, look at your dad caring about you.

[01:02:30.140] - David

It starts with some point. You know what I'm saying?

[01:02:32.570] - Caullen

Deconstructing masculinity over here. Let's go.

[01:02:33.550] - David

Target, also one of these motherfuckers who pulled- reeled back it's DEI initiatives, motherfuckers showed up and everyone went to Costco! Costco's out here, and Target lost $15 billion in a month! I saw one of the fucking Instagram reels on connecting it to the boycott. The bus boycotts lasted 380 some days. And they were able to have an impact of that amount of money. We were able to have that impact in 30 days. You feel what I'm saying? Of being able to- stockholders, and now they're looking at how to move differently. Walmart is in that same vein and a couple of others. People oftentimes think about, Oh, well, there's so much happening, how do I get involved? Bro, you can literally start with where you put your dollars. And we're seeing the impact of that on a regular basis. And it's just cool to see.

[01:03:18.960] - David

It's just fucking dope to see in terms of how we continue to see community moving and reacting. Because the state is going to continue doing its thing. I just saw one of our alder homies, I saw it on one of their Instas, but the Justice Department just deleted fucking hella files on federal police misconducts. They're deleting... And that comes from one of the executive actions that Trump pushed.

[01:03:45.400] - Caullen

And those are the real things that are different.

[01:03:49.380] - David

That are really damaging, bro. Because, again, yes, all of the things that Trump is doing is, again, to cause a smoke and mirror situations. But we constantly have to look through those to see what the truth is at right now. Right now, there's a huge... Not to take it too far off tangent, but with the fact that China, during this entire time, has just been doing their thing. They try to ban TikTok, they didn't give a fuck, they got it back. The DeepSeek, I know, and I think we may have talked about a little bit- did you see anything more about that?

[01:04:18.530] - Caullen

I just know it was better than OpenAI and it's open source and all the things.

[01:04:22.730] - David

And literally wiped out $1 trillion in US stocks because it's OpenAI and open source unlike OpenAI here America, whatever. It's completely... I think that this happened a couple of weeks ago, but again, I think it's important. It's encouraging to see how community has moved and will continue to move. Because even outside of boycotts, we've seen people show up and make themselves present. I think I was incredibly inspired by seeing LA show up and show out during those first days, really aggressively. As y'all know, LA was Mexico. There's this wonderful conversation about identity and being native, and what does that actually mean?

[01:05:05.160] - David

But also seeing how they were able to- or not lead people into danger. I named that with being like, I saw a lot of things of heavy, heavy militarized police presence, which we're not unfamiliar with. 2020, we've seen LA and that. But since then, I don't think I've seen anything that big since what I was seeing in LA, where you have these motherfuckers in full on riot gear, just ready to beat the shit out of people. And community was able to hold its own community to not elicit more. And I think to me, it's not that violence is a bad thing, but I think being able to take care of community and prioritizing community safety above individual goals, I think that shows where we need to be continuing going. Where the route needs to go.

[01:05:53.450] - David

We saw that here with the DNC, there was a lot of also whispers and murmurs of like, Oh, it was too passive, it was whatever. But that wasn't the goal. The intended goal wasn't to go around burning shit in that name and place, it was to have families and children be able to participate in civil disobedience. When you talk about leftists hating leftists, I think we're trying, we should, and we need to keep having more conversations in terms of expectation and how we need to move, right?

[01:06:18.930] - David

Because the last thing I'll name on ICE, right? A couple of days ago, I saw something on Instagram where out in Philadelphia, someone was able to light an ICE truck on fire, right?

[01:06:29.140] - Caullen

I mean..... Burn, baby, burn!

[01:06:30.260] - David

You look at the comments, bro, and you get the motherfuckers from who you know are racist bastards to those who are like, Oh, I'm all for it, but this might be a little too much. To the motherfucker who I love, who is like, Yo, this is the ground floor. If things are going to go where they need to go, we need to be ready to do this and more. That's where I think I'm different from 2016 to now.

[01:06:57.870] - Caullen

Oohh, you're trying to burn some shit down? Allegedly.

[01:07:01.010] - David

Allegedly. But we can even talk about that metaphorically. We can even talk about it in different ways in terms of how... Because now, for example, Soapbox is not where it was, where now we have steak, we have ground, we have...

[01:07:15.400] - Caullen

We got an office.

[01:07:15.670] - David

There's different game, so we have a better position than we've ever had. And if that's the case, to move on these next four years, bro, when we had nothing and we were able to move, I think to me, that's just a microcosmic example of everything in America in terms of the individual. I hope, especially motherfuckers who are listening to B'nB, they already know, but outside of that, Caullen, how many times have we talked about we need to be engaging other people, we need to engage our family members, we need to engage our friends, who sometimes these uncomfortable conversations are not it.

[01:07:48.720] - David

But, motherfucker- if you ain't uncomfortable watching Trump talk with anybody, bro. Sometimes- and that's why I've tried to watch a little more, especially when I'm prepping for these episodes. But say, bro, it's so embarrassing. We are literally- it's fucking embarrassing. I don't understand anyone who's like, Yeah, America, we're making it great! Like, Yo, I don't get it. I don't see it. You know what I'm saying? Maybe I'm blessed with critical thinking skills and just seeing the rest of the world react the same way. We see the President of Mexico go off on Trump on multiple things. Oh, you want issues? Come fucking get all the drugs that you're bringing over here. Like, Oh, come get all the guns that you bring out over here. You were talking about these gangs right here, who do you think gave them all their guns? I don't know. Seeing that targeted attack from other countries is just encouraging, right?

[01:08:34.520] - Caullen

I love that. That was great. Thank you so much for blessing our ear holes.

[01:08:38.240] - David

As we wrap this conversation up, Caullen, what are your last thoughts and/or feels and expectations for us moving forward after everything I just said?

[01:08:47.800] - Caullen

I want to answer that second. I want to react a little bit. I'll try to get this concise, I know we're trying to wrap. With regards to Trump voting block, to how we talked about Trumpism back then, and white supremacy back then, and how we talk about it now, and going back to that alt-right is the right conversation. And I think in masculinity, that being part of it. On the episode notes, there's a link for an article, "Trumpism: A Brief History", an article I wrote and we published in Soapbox Editorial right before the election.

[01:09:16.860] - Caullen

I'm gonna read a couple of quotes that seem as true today as they did then. One of them, "[Trumpism as the reconstruction of whiteness] obscures neoliberalism's effects on the working-class and serves to rally behind nationalist, populist, xenophobic, protectionist and anti-establishment sentiments." "The Trumpism ideology is not new. As most things that Donald Trump champions, Trump slapped his name on it and called it his own." That's early on in the article, and you can scroll down, we get to the last part: "No matter what happens in tomorrow's election, Trumpism and Trumpist are real people with real voting power and are here to stay. The ideology incorporated has been awakened and chauffered to the main state, potentially shifting the Republican Party's platform and, almost inarguably, their electorate."

[01:10:05.540] - Caullen

That's all plain language, so I'll let folks chew on that. But I think the Trumpism I was hearing a lot back then- and I think folks kinda understood what it was as that neoliberal, white, racist ideology that was more palatable and weirdly entertaining and something people wanted to be a part of. But I don't hear that anymore. That word- necessarily- and MAGA has kinda switched for that, which is fine. But I remember that point, for me, in my circles when I saw what I engage with in the world, I didn't see folks talk about- white supremacy wasn't a thing people said as much. It wasn't as accepted as a thing in the mainstream as much. That was only like, extreme right, nazis, KKK, whatever. Obviously, folks understand white supremacy comes in all shapes and sizes and all forms and all the things that's internalized and it's everywhere. It's the water, not the shark. We know that. I just remember back then, I wasn't hearing that as much. I think Trumpism made a lot of sense, but it was just a re-coded white supremacy. And now I'm just hearing that a lot more in our circles and outside of them. I think that does mean something as far as what we're able to think about and galvanize folks with, potentially, to press forth for something new and better.

[01:11:21.890] - Caullen

With the voting block, the electorate, and the folks who are of age now, especially the men who are of age now- and I would argue internalized patriarchy and misogyny is real, so women as well, but mainly the young boys who voted for Trump and are in this "maniverse" sphere. Ain't just this time thing. It didn't look like... I'm sure I know it existed in 2016, but the maniverse or the whatever you like to call it, the Andrew Tate's corner of the internet. This rebranded, I guess, "cool", I guess, "hip", I guess, "it's okay to be a man." "It's okay to be an alpha if that's what you want to do." This, not who knew at all, idea of masculinity and gender roles has been rebranded and cultivated and chauffered in a way that I would argue it wasn't in 2016. I'm sure some internet scholars would say it was there. I'm sure it was there.

[01:12:13.811] - David

Internet scholars.

[01:12:13.910] - Caullen

But as far as it being so accepted and mainstream and these pillars of Tate and Logan Paul and other people who, I would think those type of folks many, many years ago wouldn't really get "down with politics", and they are understanding that power and understanding how it is as much of a show, as much bullshit, has as much power as they do in a certain way. The digital age is a different point now, and them aligning themselves with Trump or even just with the ideology and what they're saying and the rhetoric with what he's saying and doing and codifying policy matters. So I think what you said about that voting block, especially of young men, especially young white men, but again, all men as well.

[01:12:52.110] - David

I mean, Latino young men.

[01:12:52.570] - Caullen

No, for sure. It transitioned and grew with the digital age. When I was 10, 11, 12 on the Internet, I wasn't- had access to that.

[01:13:03.630] - David

It was AOL Messenger.

[01:13:04.610] - Caullen

And it wasn't super obviously in my face. I think all that matters. I think that even Trump's son, Baron, him being, 18 or older, a young adult, he can galvanize those folks. He could be a surrogate like he couldn't be before. I think a lot of this goes down to masculinity. I think it's worth talking about in our circle as far as Black folks, Latinae folks, Cubans, Mexicans, whatever, folks- people of color voting for Trump. I'm cool with us talking about that, BrownTown talking about that. But I don't want to see that on MSNBC, day after the election, and them scapegoating people of color for voting for Trump. No, it's white people, get your house in order. This is you. This is your problem, and we're having to deal with the brunt of it, as we always do.

[01:13:51.280] - David

I love that.

[01:13:51.280] - Caullen

However, when we talk about that voting block of people of color, especially men of color voting for Trump, I think that this- not necessarily this maniverse stuff, but that too, this idea of "reclaiming masculinity" and this brand of masculinity you're trying to get back to because the feminists took over and everything's too woke, whatever. Even if it's not in the woke, far-right terms, hearing it and seeing it; misogyny and patriarchy in Black and Brown communities isn't new. You know what I mean? But some of that is all mixed in this bag that has stoked it, that I think has resulted in those kind of voting blocks.

[01:14:25.840] - Caullen

But again, I don't want to jsut sit there because it's a white people problem. But I do think it's worth talking about in a nuanced way as far as us, and the ability and harm we're able to commit and learn that is okay to commit as men, as cis men, especially in this world. I wanted to say, I'm tying that with the Trumpism to MAGA, to white supremacy in general, neoliberalism, all that codifies and uplifts and needs masculinity to exist. We can't talk about Trumpism and white supremacy without talking about patriarchy. We can't talk about neoliberalism and class ratification without about masculinity. None of these things exist without this masculinity and how ingrained it is in patriarchy, how that runs our world, how this Make America Great Again is Make Masculinity Great Again, too, happening at the same time. I think, not that that was not the case in 2016, but it is obviously here now, and it has more power and money and platform to persist in the future.

[01:15:22.750] - David

Yeah. And I feel like this is definitely one of those conversations, though, there's just so many aspects that we can just continue. Because I'm thinking about- I'm like, What has happened from 2016 till now that would have provoked? The #MeToo movement was coming hard after the Pussy Hats. March and just thinking of all the things that have happened in the celebrity culture, pop culture, whatever the fuck you want to call it, that has been influenced and made people like Tate and them find this position of power. Because they wouldn't exist if there wasn't a "need" in their eyes. It's like, Oh, no, motherfuckers need me, because you're seeing all this other shit happen and that's unfair and this, that, the fifth. And then they use this justice, "what's right, what's wrong" language that then taints it all.

[01:16:14.810] - David

But yeah, man, I'm really glad that we had an opportunity to sit back and think through it a little more. I think to end it, at least on my end, I think I started the conversation with being like, 2016 David, 2017 David was just hungry, trying to learn. I think 2025 David, I have the opportunity now to truly understand the situation. It's not even Democrats and Republicans. It's truly like, corporatists and oligarchs. And we're at a point- because we've always known that democracy never existed, and we've known that, we are seeing the disruption and the destruction of empire.

[01:16:50.450] - David

We're looking at history is the motherfuckers who told us this before. With now having that information, it's almost like empowering because- to your point, yes. The fact that we've known that oligarchies are the problem, and that's represented in the 1% against the 99. I think that got really popular, and there's a reason why it was shut the fuck up! It was stomped. That's what we constantly see with corporatists because they want to keep the people- they just want to make money, that's the only thing that matters to them. And at this point, they've definitely lost, and they've lost to the oligarchs because oligarchy functions on chaos. Again, we go back to that conversation of when you have the disruption, and this moment when you're taking away these federal programs and whatever, whatever. There's still the need. Motherfuckers like, Oh, well, don't worry, my boy Tim Cook is going to come through and create better school programs for all your students. Then guess what, it gets privatized. You know what I'm saying? And that's where we're going.

[01:17:48.770] - David

And it definitely, again, clearly we did our homework for this one, but it reminded me, I took a political philosophy course in undergrad, right? And one of the things we read was Aristotle's Politics. In that, he talks about how tyranny comes from oligarchy for multiple reasons. But to put it into a close, what I appreciate, was like, with oligarchs and the way that system that creates- which is what we're in right now, we're literally seeing- the result is only two things: tyranny or revolution. It's like, this is a- and again, granted, this is a white guy who maybe wasn't even a white guy who said it hundreds of thousands of years ago. But if that's still the same thing, I think to me that only makes revolution that much more appealing.

[01:18:40.430] - David

Because I think in 2016, when David was like, The Revolution, it sounded like almost like a mystical thing. You know what I'm saying? It was almost like... Maybe didn't even remind me of Mexico because we didn't even know- we didn't have other examples of actually other areas, other people. We didn't even understand the Native American fight and struggle for liberation, which they're still doing! They're still trying to do it. But the Ws that that community has been able to have, my own community of Chicanismo on the West Coast, people have been fighting for liberation often. It's now where it's in this mainstream where we're able to platform such as the presidency, that we're able to engage with it in a different light.

[01:19:17.390] - David

I think you and I, and our community, hopefully, is just continuing to prepare ourselves. I'm not as worried. Low key. I'm not as worried, but I'm ever more inspired to make sure that we're talking to motherfuckers. We're creating meaningful forms of content. Because we didn't have enough time to talk about the journalistic responsibility of entities like Soapbox, like Triibe, like Block Club, like The Reader, who are motherfuckers- In These Times who are part of that movement media ecosystem that has been pushing since, I would argue, since before 2016, some of these groups. But we're now all funneled in a way where it's like, All right, cool. I feel it's like, now or never, type thing. Because when we started that episode, we're like, Oh, well, it's Trump's first and only, type shit. It was like, No, clearly that-

[01:20:07.620] - Caullen

Did we say that?

[01:20:08.240] - David

Yes. I think you did.

[01:20:09.730] - Caullen

Noooooo! I thought I knew, but I didn't. I'm a fraud, y'all.

[01:20:14.090] - David

It's okay. But we here, and that's it. I don't know. Those are my last thoughts, and it's exciting to a degree. So I'm excited, I guess I'm trying to see the silver lining in this shit a little more than I was in 2016. But again, I think it's like, hopefully, we're all continuing to do that. And again, critical thought to your point. Education ain't it. It's allowing yourself critical thought. And also just research. Like, allow yourself an opportunity, I know it's hard, but like, hey, I promise you, most of us have been scrolling on Facebook for three hours. If you cut that in half, put 30 minutes aside to catch up on something you give a fuck about.

[01:20:46.350] - David

What do you give a fuck about? Oh, is it the fact that fucking Trump is out here peeling DEI initiatives? Is it immigration? Is it the fact that you and your people got hit with the federal freezing and hiring freezes and now potentially dismantling of entire fucking systems. You know what I'm saying? You probably don't have a job. Cool. Now it just hit you. Now you're just waking up? As we've always said: welcome. We've been here. Take a seat. Harambe will fill you in on anything you need to know. But get ready because we moving.

[01:21:18.530] - Caullen

We crowdfunding a pizza.

[01:21:19.760] - David

If we have to. Lord. Any last words for the people, Caullen?

[01:21:24.850] - Caullen

I have so many thoughts, bro. No, I rant too much. I appreciate the note of positivity and "jUsT bE pOsItIvE. jUsT tHiNk bEtTer."

[01:21:34.250] - David

Well, I don't know about all that.

[01:21:35.830] - Caullen

No, I do appreciate the point about the wins you've learned about, wins you've seen, wins you've been a part of, and that being inspiring for hope.

[01:21:47.490] - David

I mean, Palestine is still resisting today. You know what I'm saying? Like after... Sorry.

[01:21:52.190] - Caullen

No, I mean, there's so many liberation fights happening currently within us, in the world, our communities, on the other side of the world, whatever. I think they all are connected. I think those wins you've mentioned, I'll be coupled with, from what I'm hearing from you, maybe this is me projecting, but like, oh, we're going to... Empire is going to actually be the Death Star, or we're going to revolt and actually do something. I feel like that is coming up sooner in my lifetime than I thought it would.

[01:22:21.180] - David

Rather than later, yes.

[01:22:21.890] - Caullen

Not for anything good, but it's like, Oh, something has to happen. Something has to be, we have to shit or get off the pot. That seems closer in a very scary way, but also in a "we got to do it." Also, we've seen more than glimmers, but times of hope. Yeah, times of hope and times of real love in the streets and love in action. And that gives me hope, too.

[01:22:45.060] - David

Yeah. And so here's out to everybody having hope for 2025. It's always your boys from Bourbon 'n BrownTown. As always, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.

[01:22:53.190] - Caullen

Stay tuned, stay turnt.

[01:22:55.440] - David

See you for the next one.

[01:22:56.270] - Caullen

Free my guy Luigi!

[01:22:57.250] - David

I just saw him right now. He's walking that- literally opened up my Instagram and he's like, he's being walked into his court proceedings or whatever the fuck. "Luigi's lawyer, Karen Friedman, entering the courtroom to the cheers from the crowd"!!!

[01:23:09.500] - Caullen

Let's go!!!

[01:23:09.500] - David

That's what we're going to end this episode on!

[01:23:12.240] - Caullen

Free Luigi!!!!

[01:23:12.410] - David

Make every CEO afraid. They got addresses. Actually, no, they don't. We talked about them taking their shit off the online. Whatever. We're done. We're out of here. Turn this shit off. Go somewhere else.

[01:23:23.820] - Caullen

Turn your TV off. Turn your TV off. Let's go!

OUTRO

Music TV OFF by Kendrick Lamar ft. Lefty Gunplay