Bourbon 'n BrownTown

Ep. 102 - Palestinian Liberation: In This Moment ft. Muhammad Sankari

Episode Summary

BrownTown invites Muhammad Sankari from the US Palestinian Community Network (USPCN) to discuss this current moment in the struggle to Free Palestine. The gang frames Israel's genocide in Gaza and assault on the other territories in historical context with regards to the long history of resistance struggles across the globe. #FreePalestine. Originally recorded December 19, 2023.

Episode Notes

Transcriptions available here!

GUEST
Muhammad Sankari is an organizer with the US Palestinian Community Network (USPCN), a national, multi-generational Palestinian and Arab community-based organization in the U.S. fighting for the total liberation of Palestine. Follow USPCN on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter!

Mentioned Topics & More Info:

All Out for Palestine - Action Toolkit
Black and Palestinian Organizing Toolkit
Epistemicide according to BnB Alum Ricardo Gamboa
White House funding for Weapons Sales in Israel (In These Times)
Why Journalists Must Speak out About Gaza (In These Times)
South Africans in Israel (Middle East Eye)
Confronting colonialist propaganda, Zionism and the Civilized/Holy (TRiiBE)
Biden says he has 'no confidence' in Palestinian death count (Reuters)
White House walks back Biden’s claim he saw children beheaded by Hamas (Aljazeera)
The Ferguson-Palestine connection (1, 2, 3)
Hoda Katebi on holding your institutions accountable
Pro-Palestinian Protesters take Chicago's Lakeshore Drive
Chicago Elected Staffers demand Ceasefire Resolution (1, 2)
"Israeli Diaper Forces"
George Khoury of USPCN

CREDITS: Intro song MTAKTAK شب جديد - متكتك by Shabjdeed and outro song 47SOUL by Dabke System. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles. Episode photo by Jordan Esparza.

Episode Transcription

Ep. 102 - Palestinian Liberation: In This Moment ft. Muhammad Sinker

INTRO

[00:00:59.00]

Intro song MTAKTAK شب جديد - متكتك by Shabjdeed

BODY OF EPISODE

[00:01:00.550] - David

I'd like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy, David, coming to you from the Harambe Studios in Chicago. I'm out here on this cold ass December 2023 with my boy Caullen. How are you doing, man?

[00:01:38.760] - Caullen

I'm doing okay. You're right, it is not warm. I had to walk three blocks to get here, and I'm still-

[00:01:44.190] - David

It sucks.

[00:01:44.820] - Caullen

Still cold. I think I was in Miami end of- no, early October. And I think of the photos from Carnival. Everyone's in these beautiful outfits with feathers and shit, no one has shirts on.

[00:01:55.840] - David

Skin to the sun.

[00:01:56.340] - Caullen

Beautiful Black skin is everywhere. I'm like, Man, I want to go back to that. Miami sun, where are you? And the thing of this conversation, too, it was a beautiful diasporic celebration of Black life and liberation, in a way that I didn't really know the roots of Carnival in the Caribbean and stuff. And so- we'll parallel that later. But I'm doing okay. I think I always have a little bit of an imposter syndrome with everything I do. Contrary to what you see because I look so confident as I go. No, I'm kidding.

[00:02:24.420] - David

The billboards would tell otherwise.

[00:02:25.590] - Caullen

The billboards tell otherwise. No, I think with this conversation, there's so much. And David, you and I come to it differently, but land in a similar place. I think there's so much before October of 2023. There's more now. Yeah, just imposter syndrome as far as wanting to get all the things across, right? Telling all the histories and all the framing and stuff. I think us as a film media org, there's a lot there as far as framing, and I think that's important. I think we're good to lean into, but I'm happy to have our guest here. I'm happy to have a fluid conversation to see where the histories, we think need to be named, land. And where we come in with our heart and our minds in a global fight for liberation, how we can see this as a step in that direction. I feel very grounded now. I think this morning was good to have a little time before I had to think through things and come into it with like, Hey, not going to get all the answers in one episode. We're just going to see where it flows. So feeling okay. It is before noon, I got a little bourbon, just to wet the whistle a little bit. A little bit!

[00:03:33.190] - Caullen

But that's a lot. I'm curious how you're doing in general, and then how you're feeling about the precursor to this larger conversation.

[00:03:42.230] - David

I think this last period of the year, I think, has brought its blessings. I think it's always wonderful to look at the spectrum of life. With having sometimes so much grief and so much sorrow and so much pain, there has to be that other side at certain moments. And we see it throughout our life. I think we, on this side, have a privilege and also a power when speaking and using some of those opportunities and spaces to do just that with our family members. Now, I'm speaking for us, folks who may not have any background in Palestine or the faith, right? As, I don't. But it's like, you use these spaces to communicate.

[00:04:25.830] - David

And I mentioned it earlier, previous episode when we recorded with Thought. I'm trying to remember when we recorded with Thought, but that was very heavy on my mind, watching a lot of this on social media and stuff. I think I'm also... I look for the controversy sometimes. I'm blessed that a lot of the people on my social medias are like, you know, they got their head on right. And they bring theory and questioning that I think is helpful for all of us, especially during this time, especially when we're just trying to understand more. We're trying to be comrades, be allies, but truly understanding how we do so, how we can manifest that to a group of people on the other side of the world. Because we've talked about liberation within the US for the last 100 plus episodes. But I think this, as a direct representation, as a direct moment for us to do something in the present, I think, has been heavy. Heavy on our mind. It's been heavy on our mind. I think it's really exciting, really grateful for our guest to be here, hanging out with us, and talk this shit, too. Without further ado..

[00:05:30.090] - Caullen

We are honored to have with us, Muhammad Sankari. If you all don't know, he is an organizer with the US Palestinian Community Network, or USPCN, a national multi-generational, Palestinian and Arab community-based organization in the US, fighting for the total liberation of Palestine. Muhammad, what's goodie?

[00:05:49.490] - David

Heyyy.

[00:05:49.640] - Muhammad

Hey, what's going on, y'all? Thanks for having me.

[00:05:52.260] - David

Yeah, dude.

[00:05:53.530] - Muhammad

Appreciate it. Ready to dig deep, talk. Appreciate you all, again, having me on. I think one thing you were saying, Caullen, is that rings so true to me- there's so much. But there's so much, but more importantly, what's the perspective that we all bring? And I think that you were just talking about, I have this media frame or this media production perspective, what does that mean? And I think, to me, that's always the key. It's like, how does everyone create a way to access complex topics. Or, complex maybe isn't the best word. Like, deep topics.

[00:06:32.220] - Caullen

Sure.

[00:06:32.740] - Muhammad

It's not that complex. Genocide is pretty straightforward. But how do we create points of access for everyone? Not everybody does the same thing. In any liberation movement. Not everybody does the same thing, but we all can do something. This is one thing that I think about all the time, especially working with young people in my day job.

[00:06:56.440] - Caullen

I didn't know that.

[00:06:57.840] - Muhammad

Yeah yeah yeah. I work with high school aged youth at an Arab community center on the South Side of Chicago and the southwest suburbs. Most of our youth are working class, Palestinian, Yemeni teenagers. Maybe most of them, their parents are immigrants. Some of them, their grandparents are the ones who immigrated because now I'm getting old and there's two generations.

[00:07:22.990] - David

So you got first, second gen.

[00:07:23.960] - Caullen

Colorful. Colorful.

[00:07:25.200] - Muhammad

But you think about... You see young people and you see this multi-array of young people, and you see the young person who's like, I want to be in the rally. I want to be on the mic. I want to be whatever. And you see the young person who's like, I want to sit on TikTok. I don't give a shit about anything. And like, Yeah, I'm Palestinian, okay, whatever. But then you're just like, Okay, both of them in this moment are approaching the same thing from maybe a different angle. And then it's just like, if we are to build a successful movement, it's got to be a way in which everyone feels like they are able to plug-in in some way. I think all movements do that. Obviously, all liberation movements have done that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have won. It's thinking about that. Anyway, sorry, I'm going in the weeds, but it's something that's always on my mind.

[00:08:16.410] - David

This is exactly why we have this. Just so you know, the weeds is all we do here, bro.

[00:08:22.690] - Caullen

I was just thinking about, thank you for that. I really appreciate it. I didn't know you work with youth. I feel like in our, not limited, but in our experience working with youth and making workshops and things and showing our work as sites of critique and participatory media, whatever, it's like, okay, people have this idea, folks who don't do youth work, have the idea that you have to dumb things down for young people, whatever, in a way. And it's like, I mean this with the most amount of respect and honor, the same way I talk to youth or make presentations, or just have folks understand media literacy in movement and how important that is- it's the same way I talk about certain things with my parents who are both very smart people, politically attuned, all the things. It's like, how do you make the... I like to think about the work that we do, is we make the complex simple and the simple complex in ways that feel good and are affirming and actually connect all these things.

[00:09:15.850] - Caullen

Speaking of my parents, I mentioned Miami earlier- I was in Miami for a couple of days for Carnival in the Caribbean, and then visited my parents in Florida for four or five days just to hang out and work a little bit. So that Saturday, we were at Carnival and partying all day, was October 7th. And so we're seeing stuff happening on social media and things, and I wasn't really digging in for a couple of reasons. Then... It's still in the news cycle. Then I get to my parents' home. My parents and myself all watch a lot of corporate news. I watch through a different lens than they do.

[00:09:50.190] - David

A healthy amount.

[00:09:51.260] - Caullen

But it was great to be with them. Just working, hanging, eating, not really doing too much, it wasn't a holiday or anything. And for me to already try not to be on my phone that much for a lot of reasons, then being with them and seeing the news stories come in, the main legacy media and stuff, and then be able to talk to them in real-time about this political moment. Where normally it's like, Oh, Caullen, SoapBox did XYZ, how'd that come to be? It's after the fact. Whereas this was rapid fire. News story. News story. News story. I was like, Hey, Anderson Cooper is lying, dad. I'm like, It's not misinformation, it's factually incorrect. Or I'm like, This feels weird, I bet in a couple of days this will come out and this won't be true. And then sure enough. It was, to a point of accessing folks and talking to folks and where people tap in, I think that's really important.

[00:10:40.230] - Caullen

What we do, especially with framing and stuff, is folks think that unless you're on the front lines getting beat up by the cops, and it's filmed, and it's a whole thing- which is, unfortunately, bearing witness and all that is important- it's like, unless you're doing that, you're not doing anything. Which, of course, isn't true. And so to have those conversations is super important and valuable. I think what we try to do in this space, with Bourbon 'n BrownTown, as well as around SoapBox, is giving folks tangible tools that's not watering anything down. But it's like, How do you talk to your people about this? Cause if they don't listen to me, they don't give a fuck what I think, but they care about what you think. And if you come with a place of honesty with the same positionality, too, it can help.

[00:11:16.080] - Muhammad

Yeah, I think what's so interesting about that, too, is if we just look at the microcosm- and it's not just Israel- but if we just look at the microcosm of Israel, oftentimes we can learn what's important by studying what the oppressor does. And the fact that for the last 70 plus days now, they've been targeting journalists, they've been targeting photographers, they've been targeting poets, they've been targeting... In addition to just carpet bombing everybody, but they're specifically targeting people, too.

[00:11:47.130] - Muhammad

There was a young academic, Refaat Alareer. I don't know if folks had heard about him. He'd actually come to Chicago a few times. He did this like... He was a professor of English in Gaza. There's a generation of folks who are my age- he was just a little bit older than me. How old am I? Thirty-five?

[00:12:04.770] - Caullen

I was like, is he going to say? Is he going to say it?

[00:12:06.230] - Muhammad

He's like, 10 years older than me, maybe. There was a generation of folks that are my age and younger who was like, he taught them English in Gaza. And he was part of this compilation called Gaza Writes Back, which was young people and students-

[00:12:19.552] - Caullen

Oh, that's a bar!

[00:12:19.660] - Muhammad

Writing in this book. And he was toured by the American Friends Service Committee in the US and whatever. And he was a poet and he was an academic and all of these things. And he was also killed in a targeted assassination just a week ago, maybe a week and a half ago at this point. Now, to the point in which the Israelis contacted him, he was in a UN school where people seek refuge. And the Israelis contacted him and said, We are going to kill you. And so he actually left the school because he's like, When they bomb- come to kill me, I don't want to be responsible for the death of all these other people. He left the school. He ends up, at some point, ends up I think he was just... I don't want to misspeak here, but he was going from place to place. And when the Israelis finally killed him, he was in the house with his sister and her family. And so they ended up killing his sister and her kids and her family as well. But it came out later that the Israelis had made it clear, You're marked for death, essentially. And he was, not to belittle him, but he was a professor. He was a poet. He wasn't a military leader. He wasn't the spokesperson of the resistance.

[00:13:30.580] - Caullen

"Hamas!"

[00:13:31.020] - Muhammad

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was who he was, right? But the Israelis understand that it's not just the person who's fighting, it's not just the person they're meeting on the battlefield, it's not just the leader of the political party, or it's not just the leader of the resistance; it's all of these people that are dangerous to the Israeli project, right? And so that's why these folks have been killed, systematically. Again, like we said: journalists, media people, poets, writers, professors, all of these things. Of course, they're doing it because it's a genocide, but also because of what you're talking about. It's not just about the guy who gets, here in our context, the guy who gets his head beaten by the cops, and you get it on film, and it's like, Oh, my God, that's the thing. But all of these other pieces that play into the struggle, play into the movement.

[00:14:19.120] - Caullen

Yeah, 100%. I have more, but David, I want to loop you in if there's something kinda brewing with this?

[00:14:24.110] - David

No man. I just think, again, we said this was a heavy conversation, so bear with us. But I'm just thinking about my interaction or my understanding. Especially growing up, I think growing up as a cult-like Christian, I think there was a small understanding of the Holy Land and the mythology behind the Holy Land. It was crazy because in our Bibles, you'd see the maps of the land. And it was always like, Palestine, and there's Jerusalem, there's Nazareth. And so you fast forward having that ingrained in your skull.

[00:15:13.790] - David

And I think I'm just trying to recall the first time I became aware of the Palestinian struggle. And how the first thing that was, it was like, oh, but there's no Palestine, there's Israel. And I was like, but Palestine does exist. And so I'm trying to have, in my small understanding, conversations with folks who I found curious in what they wanted to say. I'm thinking about me in undergrad. When you're first hearing of, or when I was at least first hearing about that. Because I heard about it probably through school, the Palestinian struggles and stuff. And so that was my first encounter to those conversations. I'd be curious to hear as someone who grows up in it. How? I'm just naturally curious as to what were some of those early conversations for y'all who grew up in it?

[00:16:03.890] - Muhammad

Yeah. I think that-. So, this is a well-hidden fact about myself that I'm about to reveal here on-

[00:16:12.680] - Caullen

You're white.

[00:16:13.910] - Muhammad

Yeah yeah yeah. This is my Rachel Dolezal moment.

[00:16:16.130] - Caullen

Your credit was too good.

[00:16:20.110] - Muhammad

No, I actually grew up in Wisconsin, in a small town in Wisconsin.

[00:16:25.610] - David

Fo sho.

[00:16:26.070] - Muhammad

Both of my parents are Lebanese. So there's- It's funny, one of the things that happens here in Chicago, because of my work and because of who I am, people are like, Are you Lebanese-Lebanese or like, Palestinian-Lebanese?

[00:16:38.591]

[laughing]

[00:16:38.690] - Muhammad

And actually, when I got married, my partner, she's Palestinian. Her dad's from the old city of Jerusalem. Her mom's from a village in the West Bank. And her family, I got there after we got married, we go to Palestine. I'm talking to her family members, everything. And one of her uncles is like, So you're Lebanese-Lebanese or Palestine-Lebanese? I was like, Holy shit, dude I can't escape this.

[00:17:00.730] - David

Oh, my goodness.

[00:17:01.660] - Muhammad

But no, and all jokes aside, it's because of the long history of our peoples before these borders existed. Whatever. European colonialism, blah, blah, blah, blah. Also the fact that the Palestine Liberation Organization was in Lebanon. That there was a civil war that was masking a revolutionary war that happened in Lebanon, that they were then forced out. The Israelis occupied Lebanon, continue to occupy it to this day. I give context to all of these things. But to say that I grew up at some level in it, maybe, so to speak. But at another level, also detached from it because I was in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. That's the big secret.

[00:17:46.720] - Caullen

Oshkosh, Wisconsin? That's real?

[00:17:48.430] - Muhammad

That is real.

[00:17:49.370] - Caullen

That's a real place?

[00:17:50.060] - Caullen

Shout out Oshkosh. Or should we anti-shout out? Do we like Oshkosh?

[00:17:53.210] - Muhammad

Yeah. It's a complicated history. It's a complicated history.

[00:17:59.020] - Caullen

Some would say otherwise.

[00:18:00.460] - David

No no. I appreciate you sharing that secret with the homies at B'nB. But I think it's also still important as someone who's part of... You're spending your livelihood in the organizing of this. But I also think it's important for people to understand, we don't have to be of it or experience the trauma to understand that the trauma is existing.

[00:18:22.100] - Muhammad

Yeah, I think that's a part of it. Then also in the Palestinian struggle, specifically, historically and to this day, it's always been an understanding that it's the Palestinian people, yes, but it's part of the broader Arab nation. It's the Arab nation as a whole. Now, we're probably almost 400 million of us. And Palestine is central to it. There was, historically, and to the present day, there was never this delineation of: it was only Palestinians and the rest of the Arabs or whatever; it was the Arab and Palestinian people.

[00:18:56.120] - Muhammad

Yes, there was a Palestinian Liberation Organization. Yes, it was representative of the Palestinian people, all of these sorts of things, but it was part of the broader Arab struggle. And the Arab world, to this day, again, the Arab masses, I would say, the people, the average people, forget about the reactionary governments, all understand that, too. We've seen it in the last few weeks. There's literally millions of Arabs taken to the street. Even when their governments are the ones complicit in Israeli genocide. So there's that, again, contextualize it as just there's a long history there of how it's not just... It's Palestinians, but it's not just Palestinians. It's a Palestinian Arab nation.

[00:19:39.210] - Muhammad

Then, of course, we want to get head in the clouds or whatever, Palestinian leaders like Ghassan Kanafani, the brilliant poet and writer and political leader and editor of a newspaper and Marxist-Leninist and all these things you could say about him that was immortalized in history, assassinated the Israelis. He said that you don't have to be Palestinian. It's a Palestinian- I'm butchering the quote here. But the Palestinian cause is a cause for all of humanity or anyone who cares for justice. And then you see people, revolutionists like Che Guevara, who visited Palestine, visited Gaza at some point in his life. And the deep history is there. Anyway, I say all of that, I think, to say that- like you were just saying- where it's, yes, those people are in it. And yes, everyone who cares about justice, and historically, and to this day, it's been an Arab struggle. It's been international struggle, it's been all of these things. And I think that's one of the reasons why the Palestinian cause has been front and center in so many people's minds around the world.

[00:20:52.050] - Caullen

100%. Yeah, I think about... You said something that I thought about as far as reactionary governments and this idea of nation states. Across the board, obviously, there's.. We can get into the weeds of the West and everything... But I just think of the few conversations I've had with folks who don't share my worldview for Palestinian liberation, I'll just say that. But we'll see me post on social media or something like that and we'll... Now, looking back, I'm like, Man, you said that out loud, really? Just talk about like, Oh, what about Hamas? And these other conversations and stuff. And, Jews have been persecuted for so long, and those talking points and things. I'm like, Yeah, that's fucked up- let's fight white supremacy, let's fight naziism, that's not what this is.

[00:21:41.940] - Caullen

Two things I'm thinking of. One, I won't get in too much, but folks are like, Well, the United States was founded on genocide and slavery, should the United States exist? I'm like, No! And I'm like-

[00:21:53.550] - Muhammad

Easy ass question to answer.

[00:21:54.290] - Caullen

The answer is no.

[00:21:55.150] - Muhammad

Number two.

[00:21:55.740] - Caullen

Also, that's not what you- you understood- that's a gotcha question, you don't actually care about that. And if you do, there's resources you can tap in, there's land back struggles. If you actually care about that, I'm happy to have that conversation and have you tap in and do the work, but you don't. So let's table that. Let's put that aside.

[00:22:10.800] - Muhammad

It's a bad gotcha question.

[00:22:13.730] - Caullen

It's a bad gotcha- y'all, if you're listening to this, which I hope those folks are listening to this, actually. I will say that. But if you are-

[00:22:19.020] - Muhammad

There's better questions. There's better gotcha questions.

[00:22:19.710] - Caullen

There's better questions. There's better gotcha questions. There's better curious questions in good faith. But the second thing I'm thinking of as far as this idea of- I'm hesitating on how to phrase this- of political forces, whether they're forming because of reacting to decades of violence and oppression and/or West-backed apartheid regimes of power. And there's folks who just are wanting to take care of their kids and live a normal life. And this idea of nation states or just power and political entities determining how your life works, yeah, I'm not really all into that in general. And I think- are there folks in Israel who are just living their life, who want their kids go to school and have a good life? Absolutely. As there is everywhere. That's why, to your point as far as being a humanitarian struggle, I think that's really real. I think linking those conversations and they sway much towards, well, Israel has to exist because Jews have been persecuted for so long, and we need this land for whatever. It's like, well, one, let's talk about the Balfour Declaration. Let's talk about how Zionism exists. Let's talk about-

[00:23:32.830] - David

Where did it come from?

[00:23:33.420] - Caullen

Let's talk about... you know, the British and the West choosing this place, strategically for resources.

[00:23:37.490] - Muhammad

After they literally thought about Uganda first.

[00:23:40.090] - Caullen

Uganda, Argentina, they were auditioning places to go. So it's like, if we wanted that conversation it's like, let's detach from that. Let's fight white supremacy and naziism, absolutely. But let's not detract from what we know to be true, that is just factual. And how this place was auditioned to be that. The Holy Land was a salt-based sprinkle on top of it to add to the myth of needing to be here.

[00:24:04.210] - Muhammad

Absolutely.

[00:24:04.600] - Caullen

So I think about that. My whole point is with that is, I try to detach it from that thread- for the reason I just named. But also, let's talk about imperialism, colonization, white supremacy, and nation states across the board, and that all congeals in this project. But if we're going to talk about it, let's talk about that, because that's actually what it is, everything else kinda added to it. And, I think David does this a lot because he has those conversations with folks a lot more often than I do, but it's like, okay, if I am you and I've been-

[00:24:38.790] - David

Brainwashed.

[00:24:39.270] - Caullen

And as men in this conversation we have in a certain sense, anyone with some point of privilege has been in a certain way. But I... the past couple of years, I've been more aware of like, oh man, Zionism is as insidious as white supremacy and that's not by accident. If I'm coming to this through a faith-based lens- I've I told this my whole life, this is something I care about- that's going to be really hard to detach from.

[00:25:04.510] - Muhammad

Sure. Absolutely.

[00:25:07.020] - Caullen

For me, it's like, Where's the line of grace and sensitivity? And where's the line of, This is just right and this is wrong, and I need you to get on board. And it's hard. Like, this is genocide, I know you don't like genocide; but also, from what you're seeing and hearing, you're okay with this. And you're not seeing the same, I don't know why. If it's a numbers game, we got the numbers- I don't know what's going on. And so I've been thinking about that the past two months, especially two and a half months, I should say. But even the last couple of years, had more conversations, meeting more folks like you who do this work more often. And then just tying it to my trajectory politically through a Black liberation lens from teenage years to now. Then also, Oh yeah Malcolm was down with Palestine. It's like, all the folks that I looked up to when I was 13, 14, they all were on the right side of history with this, so what are we missing?

[00:25:53.600] - David

Knowledge is power. I think understanding a lot of the information we were fed and how we receive that information, through what ways and means. And oftentimes, if it's your grandpappy telling you this shit, it comes with... There's layers to this. But I think, Caullen, to your point, and I think I have a unique experience in that being raised in a crazy Christian cult. Now, it's like, the leaders in jail and shit. But this level of, you have to completely unlearn everything that I was told was the way the world it works. I think it's very difficult for folks. I think to, Caullen, to your point, finding grace for everyone, specifically when your end goal, oh you're peace- okay, what does your end goal? We have the same end goal. Okay, cool. Now, let's trace that back.

[00:26:46.660] - Caullen

I care about everybody. But do you? But do you?

[00:26:50.010] - David

Like, oh I'm really for health care here. Cool, but you're cool with them sending billions of dollars to the other side of the world to kill people. Well, you know.... That's where you kinda have those grappling moments and conversations. For me, I think finding information and then challenging that information, I think it's been really interesting. Caullen, you were mentioning seeing... I don't watch any news. I definitely detach myself from news in general, but I definitely got enough of it on all the Facebooks, the Instagrams, the Twitters.

[00:27:19.893] - Caullen

The Xs.

[00:27:20.640] - David

But I was curious, Caullen, you said that a few days later it came out to be.. I'm just curious if there's one specifically that comes to mind in terms of how the machine... What is an example of something, I guess, that you were seeing that then later on were like, Ope, our bad. I know there's a few, but I'm just curious if there's one.

[00:27:39.970] - Caullen

I think the biggest one that comes to mind is the, Hamas was beheading babies.

[00:27:43.660] - Muhammad

That Genocide Joe has said 15 times now.

[00:27:47.350] - Caullen

Yeah. That was just said as a fact, a thing, and people were like, It's unverified. They kept saying it's fact. Then days later, it came out that that is categorically incorrect. And there wasn't a huge- You'd think if that happened, there'd be a huge news retraction. It'd be a huge thing.

[00:28:02.140] - David

Like, Our bad.

[00:28:02.240] - Caullen

There wasn't. And that was one of many examples. It's one of those things that I struggle with, too, in this moment is that- nothing that happens I should be surprised by, but I am. I'm thinking about Joe Biden. I forgot when in the past couple of months, but a journalist was like, Hey, X amount- it was at least 10,000 at this point- 10,000 Palestinians have been killed. What do you think, Joe? And he I was like, I don't trust those numbers.

[00:28:31.200] - David

Yeah, he said that the registers are lying.

[00:28:32.780] - Caullen

And I hear that and I think about… I titillate between this idea of, Oh, this is terrible, fuck Joe Biden, woo woo, and in the weeds. I'm like, No, this is absolutely horrendous that the President of the United States is saying, Fuck them Arabs, I don't believe what they're saying. That's what I hear.

[00:28:47.930] - David

They're lying to me.

[00:28:48.200] - Caullen

I think of Dave Chappelle's Black Bush, where it's like, Here's what we hear; and here's what he's saying. I'm just like, Wait, this is insane. The simulation is not trying anymore. They're just like, Fuck it, they're putting things out there. So, I think about that. But I think I want to back up a little bit as far as corporate media, legacy media, whatever you want to call it and there's always that passive voice of like, "police involved shooting" or "explosion happens." That language when it comes to massacring of Black folks and the slow drip genocide, that happens with the same language with Palestinians, same language across the board. The oppressing machine, internationally, isn't that creative or doing anything new. But somehow, some folks we care about and love will still be duped for this thing. And then we seem like conspiracy theorists in a way. I struggle with the like, I know how we have this happen, I know how we got here, but also what in the fuck?

[00:29:47.240] - Muhammad

Yeah, I mean, one of the things... One that stands so pertinent in my mind is CNN. I think you actually mentioned- what's his name- Anderson Cooper. Where you were like, he is lying to you.

[00:29:59.340] - David

But about what? Like, I don't watch. What are you referring to?

[00:30:02.590] - Muhammad

Well, I mean, so like CNN was "on the ground" reporting in Gaza, right?

[00:30:08.070] - Caullen

Air quotes, y'all.

[00:30:09.360] - Muhammad

Yeah, sorry. And it was true- they had reporters in Gaza. But what they didn't tell you, they were embedded with the IDF, with the Israeli Diaper Forces. I don't know if you all saw that?

[00:30:21.480] - David

I'm dead.

[00:30:22.025] - Muhammad

Sorry.

[00:30:22.250] - David

Say less. No no, we're good.

[00:30:23.450] - Muhammad

Anyway, we can get back to that meme in a second. The Palestine Resistance a few years ago talked about how, in battle, they find that Israeli soldiers wear diapers. And it's come up again now because of whatever, the Internet. It's become a meme now. But anyway, so they were embedded with the Israeli Occupation Forces. And what they don't tell the public viewer is that all of the footage that they shoot has to be reviewed by the Israeli military apparatus before they're allowed to air it in the United States. That's part of their deal as being able to film in Gaza. And also, I think we've now... It's been over 80 journalists who have been killed by the Israelis. Arab and Palestinian journalists that work for groups like Al Mayadeen, which is this really great independent media source. They also have an English website that's fantastic, too. And Spanish, actually.

[00:31:26.730] - Caullen

Episode notes, y'all. Episode notes.

[00:31:28.340] - Muhammad

Yeah, exactly. And Al Jazeera and whatever. But there are specific reporters who are household names in the Arab world who were targeted by the Israelis or their families were targeted by the Israelis. Really, really horrific things of a reporter- for example, Wael al-Dahdouh, I think is his name. I might be mispronouncing his last name or misremembering his last name. But so the Israelis sent a message to the Qatari government that said, Al Jazeera needs to stop, because it's owned by the Qatari government, Al Jazeera needs to stop or tone down their reporting on Gaza. And then the next day kills this journalist, essentially three generations of his entire family. And so his kids, his grandkids, his wife, all killed in an Israeli airstrike. His home, which they know where he lives, he's from Gaza. And so it's very clear of like, they sent the "official message" and, again, air quotes. They sent the "official message" to the news room, and then they went and killed the reporter's family. Or with Al Mayadeen, they have now listed them as mouthpieces of terrorism or whatever, whatever they listed them as; and then they go and kill their reporters in South Lebanon in a targeted strike.

[00:32:49.410] - Muhammad

And so I think that's one piece of it. And then, foil that with someone like CNN. Who's like, oh yeah, here, review the footage, let us know what you want us to air.

[00:32:59.920] - Caullen

Which is wild.

[00:33:00.990] - Muhammad

Yeah. And then those same reporters from CNN, okay, leave Gaza. And they themselves have a moment of truth and they say, we have witnessed in our own eyes Hell on Earth. As they are leaving Gaza, as they leave Rafah. And so, first of all, as a media person, if you work for CNN, how can you grapple with that? I guess, right?

[00:33:26.580] - Caullen

From baseline.

[00:33:27.490] - Muhammad

Yeah, just like, baseline. How do you put those two things together. And then secondly, what does that show us? When we see these moments of truth, what does that show us about mainstream news in the United States? And CNN was like, like Caullen had mentioned, repeating the lies of the 40 beheaded babies and all of these other ridiculous things that turned out to be to be proved patently false.

[00:33:55.460] - David

And as we look and dissect a lot of that, we look at who has the ability to be violent? Who has the ability to defend themselves? And I think, Caullen, you've already mentioned this, but I think we repeat these things because those are the elements that these machines are using. Israeli propaganda is using and feeding into the US media machine; it's these tactics. And so, the better we can identify them, or the more quickly we identify them, the easier we fight them off. I think it's just so interesting to always see how the Internet never ceases to lose. The internet continues to take Ws on all the things. I don't know... That's definitely one of the silver linings of it because it's been very… I'm definitely someone who goes, reads the comments and see motherfuckers arguing with one another. Like, Okay, cool, what do you think? Ah, he kinda has a point. I'm definitely that type of motherfucker. And I'll heart the one I like, and I'll maybe jump in on it type shit.

[00:34:51.820] - Caullen

IDF3000 has a point. Let's hear him out, let's hear him out!

[00:34:56.810] - Muhammad

I think that one of the things that this has been so interesting in this moment is- just, open secret that everyone should know, international law says that occupied people have a right to self-defense and have a right to violent resistance. The entire international community agrees with this. There was a whole decolonization movement across all of the fucking occupied world where all of these former colonized countries were like, yeah, you have a right to liberate your land, including violent means. What you don't have a right is self defense if you're an occupying power. And it's not just like me, Muhammad, because I'm whatever; this is actually what international law states very clearly. But of course, we never hear that narrative anywhere in the United States. It's not like Israel is going to come out and be like, Yeah, okay, fine, the Palestinians do have a right to defend themselves because we have an internationally recognized illegal occupation of their land. But that's totally it on a very simple baseline level. It's like, this has been... One, is historically, we've seen it over and over and over again. And two, for fuck's sake, the whole entire world, even the bullshit of international law, agrees that occupied people have a right to defend themselves.

[00:36:15.580] - Caullen

Yeah. And so many organizations we can list of like, Yeah, this is apartheid, this is exactly what it is. I think I was coming to this, digging in more to the Palestinian struggle and folks doing the work before October 7th, but now it's in my face, so I'm really digging in. But it's learning about the histories I didn't know as far as when apartheid ended in South Africa folks were like, alright, fuck that, I'm going to go. Where can I have this same set up? A lot of folks moved- a lot of white folks, white South Africans, moved to Israel because they have this similar thing.

[00:36:44.340] - Muhammad

They have entire settlements, essentially, if folks are-

[00:36:47.980] - Caullen

Yeah. And it's like, this isn't like... Y'all, it's almost that clear. But I want to pull on the thread of, violence is okay to be used by whom? There's a lot on top of my mind with that- But I think of when the Hamas attack on October 7th originally happened it's like, the terrorists saying Hamas, we need to call them terrorists. We need to make sure we use this word. It's like, alright, we can pull on... That's low hanging fruit, almost. We can pull on that thread around. Why is that the thing? But it's like, okay, so let's say, to my point earlier about everyday folks who maybe hate Netanyahu, who live in Israel, maybe they're young, that's all they know type of thing. There's a degree of like, okay, it's not your fault that you're in this settlement. You might not even understand that, right? And you were killed in this attack. Is that fair? No. How did we get here? And what's the thinking of violence in all its forms, but in the most egregious form?

[00:37:41.660] - Caullen

And if we're going to call things terrorism, what's the rubric to what's considered terrorism? And then if that is people who aren't signing onto a fight or struggle in any way, then all of these nation states, especially the ones with nuclear power that are carving up land, that have decades and histories of epistemicide. Like you mentioned earlier, as far as taking away knowledge, as far as backing a planetary regime- that's also terrorism. So it's like, if we're all using these tactics, and it actually doesn't really matter- words don't actually have any meaning or matter- so how do we dig into what violence actually is and who has access to it in a certain way? Does that make any sense?

[00:38:33.170] - Muhammad

Yeah, I think so. Maybe I'm-

[00:38:35.860] - Caullen

I'm kinda just rambling, but I want to hold that. But it's like, I hear that and it's like, I don't know what that means anymore. It's obviously always used intentionally. We've been talking about... I think one thing I heard shortly after October 7th, too, was like, Oh, this is Israel's 9/11.

[00:38:55.570] - Muhammad

Yeah, I think that there's the like, If we start to unpack some of these things a little bit, like the Israel's 9/11, I think one very intentional thing that they tried to do is try to link the Palestinian resistance groups to Al Qaeda and and ISIS. They actually, the hashtag was "Hamas is ISIS" or whatever. That's what became a thing. I think the other thing, too, is that the reality is that groups like Al Qaeda have actually been the enemy of Arab people and the Arab world, and even more specifically, if we want to be super specific, Palestinian liberation for decades. And so that's why, for us, very intentionally delinking this idea of 9/11 or even Al Qaeda as being some kind of liberatory force or whatever. No, it was this right-wing reactionary movement that, at its beginning, was actually funded and supported by the United States to fight off the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, blah, blah, blah.

[00:40:00.290] - David

In case you forgot.

[00:40:01.940] - Muhammad

Yeah. Just watch the original Rambo movie.

[00:40:05.310] - Caullen

Thank you. I was going to say, watch Rambo. What, 2 or 3? Yeah.

[00:40:07.280] - Muhammad

Yeah. Dedicated to the Mujahideen fighters. "The brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan", if I'm not mistaken. That's one piece. And Osama bin Laden, Saudi billionaire, whose billionaire family had ties to global capitalism, the United States, blah, blah, blah.

[00:40:25.950] - Caullen

But we need Saudi Arabia, so we're not going to go after them. They're our buddies.

[00:40:30.050] - Muhammad

So just the intention to link that, or the intention- and making sure that we just delink all of those things ourselves. And then I think the other thing, again, too, is it's propaganda that's catered for particular people and a particular audience of like, everybody understands... I shouldn't say this. Most of the Arab world understands. And I would go so far as to say most of the third world understands that what Israel is trying to accomplish by saying, This was our 9/11. And it doesn't work. But it doesn't matter that it doesn't work for them because the goal is to get the green light from the United States and subsequently Europe to do what they were very clear- they declared an intent for genocide immediately after that, just to be totally honest. And that's what it meant. That's what they wanted to do. And that's what the goal of it was. And then it worked, right? Here we are, 70 plus days later, where they are carrying out genocide. And our president, Genocide Joe, the president of this country, when, 10 days ago was asked, what are the chances of a permanent ceasefire? And he says, zero, no chance, and does a little dance on the White House lawn and then walks away from the cameras. We're like, that level of- that's where we are in the world right now.

[00:41:54.910] - Muhammad

So I think that that's the overarching piece of it. And then within that, in terms of what kind of violence, who gets to use violence and all these things... Is it not a 17, 18-year-long siege, the largest open air prison in the world, which is Gaza, where the Israelis literally used to count the amount of calories they would allow in so that they could keep people surviving but not starving to death? Where they would literally count calories for the entire population and make sure that no more food than what was necessary- is that not much, much worse violence than anything that we've seen?

[00:42:39.560] - Muhammad

Or the second piece, if we dig into these propaganda pieces, it's almost like every single accusation becomes a confession. If we just look at the 40 beheaded babies story, the 40 beheaded babies story or the children burned alive story. How many Palestinian children have been burned by US supplied white phosphorus bombs? Countless. The Israelis lay siege to a hospital, force all of the staff to leave. The nurses, one of the last group of staff to leave are the nurses in the NICU unit. There are, I can't remember how many babies, maybe 10 or 12 babies that are in this NICU unit, and they tell the Israelis, we're here, we need to take care of these babies in the NICU. And the Israelis say, Oh, we'll take care of it. And then after the humanitarian pause that happens, they return to this hospital and find the corpses of these babies decomposing in their beds.

[00:43:40.070] - Muhammad

Again, one, there's a really horrific level of evil there, if we just- from a human perspective. Of like, you are able to leave a NICU baby to just die and decompose is actually just stomach churning. It's a very big void of humanity to be able to do that. And then the second layer, again, is that all of these accusations become confessions as to what the IDF essentially does. Up to and including the point of, it's very well documented, the use of sexual violence by the Israelis against Palestinian prisoners, including children. And in fact, the DCI, the Defense of Children International Palestine, a few years ago published a report about sexual abuse of children by Israelis in Israeli prisons, and then they had their office raided the next day by the Israelis.

[00:44:29.470] - Muhammad

And so there's like, colonizers often do this. Almost every accusation is a confession as to either what they have done or what they will do on the population. And so it's difficult to say that, personally, it's difficult to say that Palestinian resistance groups fighting against this level of brutality, it's difficult for us to try to sit here and moralize about it. It's not a moral question, it's a political question of people have a right to resist, people have a right to liberate their land. And if there were not apartheid occupation and, now, genocide, these groups would be different. They would look different. And they possibly might not even exist. Political parties would look differently in Palestine. And so ultimately, I believe, always, that the responsibility lies at the hands of the oppressor. If we were to look at this country.

[00:45:31.430] - Muhammad

I think it's actually Dr. Norman Finkelstein, who was a professor at DePaul and then, I don't know if you all remember this, years ago, got pushed out; then kinda disappeared off the map for a while. But one thing that he's talked about since in the last 70 plus days, he's talked about- he actually was reading about the Nat Turner Rebellion around the same time that this was happening. He was like, I wanted to look and see what did the white, powerful slave owning class say about the Nat Turner Rebellion at the time that it happened. So that I could... He was starting to draw this formulation.

[00:46:11.860] - Caullen

Pull this thread.

[00:46:12.700] - Muhammad

Yeah. We could probably all assume what they said. But again, if we have the benefit of hindsight and we have the benefit of history, are there people now who would say Nat Turner was not justified? Absolutely. I'm sure that they would. Would the people in this room and the people that we care about, and even maybe people who are still formulating their thoughts on Palestine, be ready to say that Nat Turner wasn't justified? I would hope not. And this isn't to say that American chattel slavery and what the Palestinian people are experiencing is the same thing. It's apples and oranges. But at the core, in terms of how people who have never known a life without a horrific oppression react; and then how we, those of us who- in Arabic, we say, [speaking in Arabic]. "The hand that's in water is not the same as hand that's in fire". Those of us who have our hands in water-

[00:47:12.210] - Caullen

That's a bar.

[00:47:13.180] - Muhammad

Those of us who have our hands in water, how we think about, and how we try to analyze people whose hands are in fire- can we learn lessons? Can history teach us? Can we take the benefit of hindsight in these other situations of extreme oppression to help guide us through that?

[00:47:34.170] - David

We had a conversation with an alderman not too long ago, and we talked about, you know, there's people who you're working with across the aisle who aren't going to meet, who aren't going to to understand, who aren't going to agree with you no matter what you do, what's the goal with that? And Jessie was like, Well, then get out the way and let me do my job. And so I'm-

[00:47:56.190] - Muhammad

Jessie Fuentes?

[00:47:56.300] - Caullen

Jessie Fuentes. Shout out Jessie.

[00:47:58.480] - Muhammad

Much love for Jessie.

[00:48:00.280] - David

And just taking everything we're talking about right now and processing with y'all. Again, important to name the tools and tactics, the dehumanizing of a group of people. I think for us, sometimes it's like, Oh, we kinda get it; we understand. There are a group of people who are benefiting from the genocide.

[00:48:25.360] - Muhammad

Absolutely.

[00:48:25.920] - David

The state of Israel. But then we get more into the weeds, and we've been mentioning the Western powers. But specifically, we're looking at the military industrial complex, Boeing, what's this other group that I had here?

[00:48:39.190] - Caullen

I'm sure Northrop Grumman is getting their change.

[00:48:40.540] - David

Yeah, but I'm talking about like, looking at... There was a video that I saw online where it's like, you look at the stock market for all of these and how they jump from 50% to other things. I don't know. The system does a great job of like, smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. And what is actually happening? Why is it that Genocide joe can be like, you know, goofy? Because my man is getting paid. He's still thinking about running for 2024, bro. I wonder, who's going to fund him? There's all these groups that are going to fund him. And so, again, the more we understand, the more knowledge is power, the more we get into it, the easier it is for us to refute those conversations. And then it gets to a point where some motherfuckers don't want to listen to you. Some people will completely close ear. We've had the same situation with Trumpers. And so we have to understand that there's that group. But I do think, I don't know, we're speaking to those, I love how you put it, who are still trying to make an understanding of themselves about this conversation. But as we started with it, it's relatively simple.

[00:49:46.810] - Muhammad

Yeah. And I think ultimately for us, we could talk till we're blue in the face, right? Us is USPCN. I think ultimately for us, one is that we don't engage with genocide deniers. There's a level of people, like you were just saying, like with Trumpers, I'm just not going to do that. If someone's trying to talk to me and doesn't acknowledge there's a genocide happening, it's cool.

[00:50:10.530] - Caullen

Where do I go?

[00:50:10.920] - Muhammad

Yeah, I got nowhere to go, so, no thanks. But I think on a deeper level than that, as history taught us in all fights against colonialism is like, what actually determines the facts on the ground, as they call it, is what actually determines everything. People may feel uncomfortable. People may say, I don't know if I like this, I wish it was just nonviolence, I wish we could all sing Kumbaya. Like, okay-

[00:50:33.150] - Caullen

Study history. Look at- *laughing*.

[00:50:35.820] - Muhammad

Or even don't. But I will tell you, Palestine absolutely will be liberated. Probably in my lifetime, assuming that I don't have an unfortunate early death, hopefully. Or if not, in my daughter's lifetime. I absolutely believe that without a doubt. And when it will be liberated, the facts on the ground are going to determine how people who are not able to see basic right and wrong will have to relate to it. Just like they did in South Africa, just like they did in Algeria, just like they did in all of these other places in the world.

[00:51:04.740] - Muhammad

The Israelis will have to make a choice: if they want to live as equals to the Indigenous population of Palestinians, just like so many other people have come into the land and lived as equals from all around the world. Or if they do not want to give up their white supremacist power structure, then there's not going to be a future for them there. It's really that simple. Again, this isn't something that I'm making up, this is what the Palestinian Liberation Movement has said for decades. And similarly, other folks that are on the fence, like when Palestine is liberated, the facts on the ground are what is going to determine what you're going to have to accept, frankly.

[00:51:44.590] - Caullen

And that's what's always been the case.

[00:51:46.030] - Muhammad

Exactly.

[00:51:45.840] - Caullen

I think I saw something the other day on the interwebs that was like, folks that won't acknowledge this as a genocide are the same folks that are perplexed on how slavery lasted so long. Like, this is how; you're doing the thing. And so to your point as far as- and I even chimed in for it- look at history. It's like, yeah, it's that, it's all the things. It's like, we have all the facts. And I think, you said this a couple of times in this conversation- I hear myself saying this, too, sometimes where it's like- I can get upset or passionate or whatever about a thing. And it's like, this isn't my opinion or my feelings, these are just the facts. This is what we know to be true now, and have always known to be true. The same way we look at the transatlantic slave trade now, it's like, how could this happen? It's the same way in a century, or two centuries from now, everyone will be like, how did we allow this Israeli project to happen so long? It's like, this is how, we're living through it right now.

[00:52:40.180] - Caullen

I'm beside myself as far as how we have to exist, how we in this room have to exist, and think about these things through so many different feelings and lenses as far as, Here's what happened in history.... Which matters. Then also, to your point about babies in the NICU unit, as far as- that is a stomach churning level of de-humanity that is... If we're not stopping to deal with that, we have to do that.

[00:53:11.827] - Muhammad

Yeah yeah.

[00:53:12.340] - Caullen

But thinking through all those different threads and feelings at the same time, and looking at history and stuff, too, and I think about a lot of folks. I think about the Nat Turner Rebellion. I think about, even John Brown, and folks are like, Who's John Brown? I was like, You wanna talk about white allies? John Brown! Killing folks that are enslaving people and having no... And getting hung for treason. What we would consider a treason or terrorism or whatever, it's like, No, but he's doing the work, and you might not like that. But again, someone whose hand is not really in fire, but understanding that level of de-humanity and violence and the structure and power that is, and do what needs to be done in order to get away from that. I think back on it now, as far as folks are probably like, Was that right? I'm like, yeah. Where I say like, oh, you wanna talk about allyship, here you go.

[00:54:05.370] - Caullen

I think, too, about... I think David said something earlier, as far as not coming from the heritage, not being a Palestinian or Arab and things like that. And I keep thinking about- shout out Nava, young person who's in the No Cop Academy campaign, starred in our documentary, comes from a Latine background. And she was like, Yeah, I'm in this fight for No Cop Academy. And folks are like, Why are you fighting for Black lives, you're not Black. And she's like, I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people. Why do I need to do that? It's actually very, very simple. And then there's the ties of the struggles being connected and all that. But not even getting there, it's like, I care about other people, and this is a humanitarian fight. I just think about all those threads at the same time, so thank you for contextualizing all that.

[00:54:50.610] - Muhammad

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in the Palestinian movement in this country, historically and to this day, has always been linked to other liberation movements in this country. At one of our- in USPCN, one of our elders who recently passed, actually, 3amo George. George Khoury, who was like- the man was a giant and he was one of those people who had just everything about his life should have been a movie.

[00:55:20.021]

[crosstalk 00:55:20]

[00:55:20.300] - Muhammad

We love 3amo George. We loved him dearly, and he passed away just a few days before this current moment. But I mentioned him because I remember, so he was in Detroit, Michigan, and he talked about when he was with the Organization of Arab Students and the Palestinian students, one of the first links that they made was with the Black Panther Party in Detroit. And after they made that link, shit hit the fan. And the university came out and attacked these students, and they were being threatened with deportation and all of this stuff. And they had this meeting- I remember him telling us about this- he's like, we had this meeting with the Panthers, and they were like, Listen, we all know that we're both down for each other in this moment. But we want to protect you all because our name is going to put you all at risk. And so let's cool it on the public affiliations with each other. We're going to continue to work together from behind the scenes, but we want to protect you all by pulling back from our public support, and you all should do the same. Not pulling back from public support, but let's just not get in front of the cameras, the Panthers and the Palestinian students together.

[00:56:39.680] - Muhammad

Again, it was a strategic tactic in that moment to say, these young people are going to be deported, and so we're going to shift the tactic here so that we can continue to fight alongside each other. And this was way before the hashtags; this was way before the Black Palestinian solidarity that we've been talking, that we've seen in the front and center of cyberspace over the last two years. This was just real movement-to-movement work that was being done. And that's the history that we come from. And at some level, it's like, yeah, because a bunch of people who lost their land and were refugees came to this country and they were like, holy shit, look at the Black population in this country and look at what the hell is happening to them, of course we got to align ourselves with them. And then it was also, then you build the political analysis of the institutions and all these things and joint struggle and da, da, da, da.

[00:57:33.470] - Caullen

And the food's better, the cookouts.

[00:57:38.410] - Muhammad

I think that that's so clear. How could you not care about another human being? On a very basic level, you see oppression in this country, how do you not get it?

[00:57:47.760] - Caullen

I feel like within the conversation with myself, I either get too entrenched in how the oppressors work and how everything's tied up with them- which I think is important to know, don't get me wrong. But also, I don't wanna say "we"- "I" was caught up in that. And so, okay, how are- the resistance- how is that all linked in ways that are strategic, the organizations or whatever, but also to share culture and struggle and all that? I think that's super important to name and to do.

[00:58:11.050] - Caullen

And like when Ferguson was going crazy, years ago, Palestinians were like, Hey, they're going to use this tear gas, here's-

[00:58:17.850] - Muhammad

Here's what you do.

[00:58:19.360] - Caullen

Here's literally what you do. But also knowing that folks who are occupied and disenfranchised neighborhoods of Chicago, of across American cities or whatever, without us choosing, our tax dollars are going to the money that's going to the IDF, and is oppressing Palestinians.

[00:58:40.510] - Caullen

And so I was thinking about this when I was on a panel over the No Cop Academy documentary, and we were talking about this moment- this was in the past couple of months. And so look like, No Cop was a beautiful campaign in Chicago that technically on paper lost, but built up so much capacity and awareness and knowledge as far as municipal budgets; as as far as policing as a logic and as an institution, whatever. That, I think, laid the seeds for 2020 in a lot of ways in Chicago, particularly. But this year, David and myself, SoapBox, other folks who were part of No Cop in years ago, went out to Atlanta in the spring to have solidarity with Stop Cop City folks and stuff. Then the first quarter, second quarter of the year, I think we were really involved in thinking about that a lot, and how those two fights were very linked and almost eerily crazy ways. The amount of money going to each project was similar, whatever. But on this panel, I was thinking about that, and connecting that to the moment in Gaza and Palestine, but thinking of like, we had...

[00:59:42.030] - Caullen

So Rahm Emanuel, his project was a cop academy. He was the Chief of Staff of President Obama. President Obama signed a 10-year, 38-billion-dollar plan- money going to Israel. And so it's like, not only are the weapons they're using the same to oppressed us, but the same people are involved in the oppression of Black folks and everyone, I would argue, in Chicago, as well as Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, and occupied Jerusalem, et cetera. It's.... We deal in documentary a lot at SoapBox, but it's like, sometimes you can't- I can't write this shit. It's almost too linked in a scary way.

[01:00:27.800] - Muhammad

Yeah yeah. We talk about that all the time in this moment. I'd be like, some of it would be comedic if it wasn't so tragic. One of the things that has consistently come up is the Israelis keep releasing these "phone calls" that they're capturing from the different resistance groups admitting to things. I don't know if you all saw one of them early on- after the Israelis bombed a hospital early on, right? And then said- essentially admitted it and then retracted a tweet. And then they're like, no, no, no, actually it was a Palestinian rocket that landed in the hospital. And then they released this phone call that was allegedly between Palestinian resistance fighters being like, oh, this is so-and-so's rocket. Oh, this must have just happened. And it was like, hilariously bad. And again, in and of itself, you would look at this thing and be like, dude, this is embarrassing. You all should have a better propaganda machine.

[01:01:27.930] - Caullen

It's like, they give so much money and power, like, how is it not better?

[01:01:31.160] - Muhammad

How is this not better? And they did another one where there was another one where it was like, "Hamas members" talking to-

[01:01:36.730] - Caullen

Air quotes.

[01:01:37.280] - Muhammad

Yeah. "Hamas members," air quotes, talking to hospital staff about like, Oh, send us an ambulance. Oh, yeah, give us amb... Oh, yeah, I got two ambulances I'm going to send to you... And it was just ridiculous. At a level in which you listen to it and you're just like, The accents aren't even right.

[01:01:54.610] - Caullen

They're speaking like broken English.

[01:01:55.320] - Muhammad

Yeah, exactly. They have a dude with a heavy Spanish accent talking in Arabic.

[01:02:02.460] - Caullen

He's light skinned, He passes. He's good, though.

[01:02:04.770] - David

I'm relying on the captions.

[01:02:06.400] - Muhammad

Yeah, right?

[01:02:07.210] - David

So I'm fucked.

[01:02:09.350] - Muhammad

So yeah. Some of it is just like... It's almost mind boggling. If it wasn't tragedy, it would be comedy. If there wasn't the tragedy of the genocide behind it.

[01:02:22.160] - Caullen

Whenever you're coming to consciousness in a way, initially, it's all heart and less mind. You're like, I can't believe in 1936 this happened. That's how I was as a young person, like, 12, 13, 14, whatever. At some point, you learn how to just exist, and not be mad all the time. And then hope it'll hold at the same time, that goes through different levels of your development, whatever. And I feel like in the past couple of years, I've gone back to that like, What the fuck are we doing? But I have rent and an IRA and a have responsibilities and I'm an adult, whatever. But it feels... I don't know if it's... Well, I can track this, but I think it's because of movements in the past 10 years and because of my trajectory as far as a creative and being involved in organizing struggles, whatever; and just seeing folks who haven't been thinking about this for much longer than I have, or not as long as I am, and they're young but seeing so clearly and being like, Fuck, it is okay, and it is valid, and it is necessary to feel those things and express them in that way. And also hold all the things to be true as far as just to exist day to day and also make those tangible changes through organizations, through organizing, having conversations, through organizing money; and maybe making those- not sacrifices- but playing the game to an extent in order to see the longer vision all at the same time.

[01:03:39.360] - Caullen

I feel like I hear stories like that from you, which I knew of a little bit, but not as much as you just named. But someone just, again, when I was in my parents' home in early October and seeing the- not bending the truth- just outright lie, like the things I knew were going to happen. It's like, I hear myself sometimes and I feel like the tinfoil hat conspiracy theory, whatever, it's like, no, what I'm thinking and believing is true. Again, hyperviolent through rhetoric and epistemicide and this journalistic planetary entity that has so much money and power that also has monopolized respectability in a way that's super insidious, that folks will see like, oh, CNN said this. Or even like, MSNBC, the good one, they said this, therefore it has to be true. It's like, I'm not the crazy one. This stuff is- the stories you're telling it's like, that's the insane thing, but that's the one that has the money, the power, the years of building a respectability to a way that you need to trust this. But calling the Internet- shouldn't be trusted- which at some point it shouldn't be. Don't get it twisted. But it's like, man, this is an out-of-body experience in certain ways.

[01:04:53.610] - Muhammad

Yeah. I think it's a moment that calls to all of us. We're all being inundated with everything all the time. And so I think the flip side, and again, not to come full circle, but what we were talking about at the beginning is just what's everyone's role in it? And how do we, as organizers, create pathways for everyone to be able to plug in to it? And that was one of the things we did, USPCN did a delegation to Palestine that was amazing and life changing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That I was on. And that was one of things, we met with- it was also exhausting. We met with like, a billion organizations in 20 days. It was just like, go go go go. I got in a fight with people because I was telling people we shouldn't eat, we should just go to meetings. I'm that guy, y'all.

[01:05:44.460] - David

Yo. I hear it.

[01:05:46.980] - Muhammad

With our people.

[01:05:48.460] - Caullen

Don't go on delegations with Muhammad.

[01:05:49.600] - Muhammad

Yeah, don't go on delegations with me. Do not do it. But everyone was like, What could be helpful? What should we do? What should we do? And everyone's like, Y'all, just do whatever. Do your thing. You don't need to ask us what to do, do it all. You're an artist, do art. You want to get on a mic and organize a rally, organize a rally. You want to draw, draw. And truly, maybe I shouldn't say at its height, but when the PLO was most active and most organized and truly a liberation organization before the Oslo Accords, it was truly that. Where everyone felt like, whether you were a doctor, you were part of the doctor's group under the umbrella of the PLO. You were a lawyer or part of the Lawyers Association, under the umbrella of the PLO, whatever it is, right? Then artists had a role as well.

[01:06:48.870] - Muhammad

The famous stories are that the folkloric dance called Dabkeh, that Palestinians do, there was a group called ####- they still exist to this day, and it's one of the most famous. And dance is resistance, blah, blah, blah, that everyone talks about, hoity toity. But literally, actually, that the Israelis made it illegal to own recordings of the ####.

[01:07:11.660] - Caullen

Speak on it.

[01:07:12.190] - Muhammad

People would actually... They would smuggle tapes of #### dances to each other through Jerusalem and through the occupied territories and all this stuff. Because the role, ultimately, of the colonizer is the role is to say, nothing has existed before us and nothing will exist after us. That it has always been us and it will always be us. And that's why the insidiousness of that is that then everything that challenges that becomes an existential threat. Which is why colonization can't sustain itself. That's why... Because eventually everything is a threat and whatever. So that being said, then I think it also gives us our marching order, so to speak, of what is to be done, challenged, at a very basic level, challenge that. Challenge the idea that nothing existed before Israel and nothing ever will, in whatever capacity you can.

[01:08:13.580] - Caullen

100%.

[01:08:14.260] - Muhammad

You want to breakdance for Palestine? Do it. I am not going to be able to do it.

[01:08:18.120] - Caullen

You want to twerk for Palestine? Go crazy.

[01:08:20.430] - Muhammad

Yeah, just don't invite my parents to that event.

[01:08:24.480]

[laughing]

[01:08:25.470] - Muhammad

But whatever it is, literally, we all... If we all approach it from that simple of like, anything that I can do, I can do in service to this thing, I think is really the first step of allowing everyone to access something. And that's what our movement should be. Our movement should be accessible to everybody regardless of what they want to do. And then through that level, I think we then- we can advance and we can reach more militancy, more whatever. We, just a few weeks ago, shut down Lake Shore Drive here.

[01:09:03.521] - Caullen

Dang.

[01:09:04.250] - Muhammad

We had 5,000 people. We had this little tactical team that we then organized with tow truck drivers in the community to drive our people up, jump out, shut down Lake Shore Drive.

[01:09:16.180] - Caullen

So dope.

[01:09:17.190] - Muhammad

And then we timed it with the main rally so that there would be a moment of silence so that when we ran into the street and started chanting, everyone would turn their heads. I'll tell you, this was like... I had this out-of-body experience at one point, because you could just see everyone rush down. The cops had set up barriers because they knew we were going to try to take Lake Shore Drive. They didn't know what we were going to do to take it.

[01:09:41.270] - David

Or how.

[01:09:41.530] - Muhammad

Or how. We out-maneuvered them, this time.

[01:09:44.222] - David

Heyyyy!

[01:09:44.510] - Muhammad

But everyone had just pushed their way down. The cops were holding the barriers. We're talking about dozens and dozens and dozens of cops holding these barriers, and our people pushing against them. And it was just like, there was a moment in which you just saw everyone was like, No, we're taking Lake Shore Drive.

[01:10:02.430] - Caullen

It was known.

[01:10:03.540] - Muhammad

Yeah, they were just like, No, we're going to do this. We saw- first of all, CPD beat the shit out of a lot of people; elderly women, people with strollers, all this stuff. It's CPD, I don't have to tell you all that they do this shit. But in addition to that, it was those same folks, literally, I saw mothers with strollers pushing their stroller past the cops like, no, fuck y'all, we are going on Lake Shore Drive. So it was just like- it was a moment, right? We had organized our folks for weeks and weeks and weeks. We had pulled the masses of our people in, and we were increasing the militancy of the level and people were just ready. In that moment, people were just ready. And these aren't like, no one read Fanon- maybe some of them did. But like, a lot of these elders are much, much, much smarter than me. But it wasn't like we had done all these book groups or whatever. We were just like, we had organized people in struggle that was accessible to them, and then they made a choice. They made a choice in that moment of like, no, we're getting on Lake Shore Drive.

[01:11:09.050] - Muhammad

The cops could have just turned around, batoned the 30 of us. They started doing it, right? Batoned the 30 of us, choked us and arrested us, and it would have been done- if it wasn't for the masses of our people that were like, oh no, we're going to make this choice. And I think that's what we need to do in our movements, always, Palestine and other. It's like, how do we allow our movements to become accessible for everyone to allow an entry point? And then we can use that as an entryway which we then increase the militancy, increase the intellect, increase all of it, and ultimately, that's how we're going to win.

[01:11:44.490] - David

I love this shit. This is where we're going to get into it.

[01:11:49.420] - Caullen

Fire it up!

[01:11:49.910] - David

We've talked about it in terms of just, sometimes just existing is resistance. And it's always, get in where you fit in. You named actions that have been taking place, whether that is here in Chicago, which has one of the largest concentrations of Palestinian folk. Or at our capital buildings, whether that's Jewish Voice for Peace, or whether that's a Dissenter's branch, which has been growing all over the place. Shout out to Dissenters. That's the way of working it. Maybe that ain't you. Maybe you're like, David, I don't feel comfortable being there. There's different- boycotts have also been taking place all throughout the time.

[01:12:24.110] - Caullen

Strategic boycotts.

[01:12:24.830] - David

Strategic boycotts around Starbucks and McDonald's. Right now, I've been seeing this whole thing where Starbucks has gotten so bad that they're giving off 50% off drinks for the rest of the year.

[01:12:34.170] - Muhammad

They lost $11 billion, I think, since-

[01:12:36.890] - David

Some people will look and be like, David, but that doesn't really matter. But does it, though? We have to understand how certain strategies that we take influence things. I think the biggest thing that we've seen, that I've seen personally, was a UN vote with 13 different nations, where every single nation called for a ceasefire.

[01:12:55.520] - Muhammad

Security Council vote.

[01:12:56.460] - David

And the motherfucker who said no, shaken ass. I don't believe in hell, but he's shaking like he knows he's going to hell, you know what I'm saying?

[01:13:03.750] - Muhammad

Right, right. You don't vote to continue a genocide and feel good about the afterlife after that.

[01:13:08.960] - David

You know, or just in general. But I think, again, all of these things happening at the same time. We're seeing, now, organizations, corporations taking stances. Puma has pulled a couple of days ago with like, We're not funding Israel soccer team anymore. Zara also ended up... First, they were like, We're pro- I think there was an action, actually.

[01:13:31.650] - Muhammad

Yeah, we just did an action at Zara yesterday.

[01:13:33.160] - David

Yeah, Zara. But I think they just pulled out recently.

[01:13:34.920] - Caullen

I'm like, That was me.

[01:13:35.690] - David

Just thinking about, again, this is pressure that people can create; organizations banding together, can push forth and establish.

[01:13:45.850] - Muhammad

Ultimately, we're going to have to drag the powerful kicking and screaming into the right side of history.

[01:13:50.710] - Caullen

They're not going to just do it because they realize one day, Oh my God, this is wrong.

[01:13:53.300] - Muhammad

You were talking about the apartheid South Africa. All the Democrats now will pray at the altar of Nelson Mandela, no problem. Even Republicans would, right? We literally had to drag this country kicking and screaming until the very last second to say, Oh yeah, maybe apartheid is wrong.

[01:14:13.810] - Caullen

That's how it always is.

[01:14:15.670] - Muhammad

Right right.

[01:14:16.640] - Caullen

I think folks have this idea of like, Oh, if we signal to the oppressor's sensibilities, they'll finally come to our side. No, that's not how it has ever happened. That's fine. It's not always going to happen; but pressure and power. Do I think knowledge is powerful? Yes, but it's like, we can know all the things, but we're still gonna get our ass beat. Organize people, organize money- I don't want to give money to an Alinsky Model, whatever, but that matters. We organize people, we organize money or lack of investment in the established framework in some of these institutions, some of these businesses. You're seeing that effect of them pulling out, which we're not going to... Oh, my God, they pulled out good for them. No, they did it because we did it. We understand that and keep it moving, but that's important.

[01:15:01.310] - Caullen

I think also, I remember listening to Eve Ewing years ago, she was talking about how she doesn't have an Amazon account, doesn't buy Amazon; but she also doesn't critique folks using it, who we share in politics. But she's like, Look, if folks- going back to the one-on-one conversations with folks- she's like, If folks see that I am taking a stand, even when say no one's boycotting Amazon, it's not the case. She's like, Say no one is, but if people see- people I care about seeing me taking a stand for a thing and not critiquing them for not doing the same thing, they're going to see this. And be like, Oh, you care about this. Like, I always care about this so what can I do? It starts that thread in folks' minds. I think boycotts is a fascinating tactic as far as I think being strategic is super important. But you see the results, like what you've named, as far as how that can happen, and how that can have an effect, and how they can maybe be on the right side of history eventually. But even if not, other folks who want to be down will understand and have ways to do that with their material conditions as well as understanding that and taking that to other people they care about to bring them into struggle.

[01:16:06.510] - Muhammad

Not everybody has to attack Israeli ships in the Red Sea. You could do that, too.

[01:16:10.690] - David

Yeah, you could do that, too.

[01:16:12.380] - Caullen

Orcas, where are you at? We need you.

[01:16:17.080] - Muhammad

But yeah, exactly. It's that entry point for everyone. Yeah, that Zara action was a lot of fun. I actually wasn't able to be there physically, but we had planned it with the Coalition for Justice in Palestine beforehand but our friends and comrades that were there talked about... So we have this big ass bullhorn, it's like 10 billion decibels. And we stuck it in. We had the white guy put it in a suitcase and roll it into Zara and then hand it off to our guy, this dark-skinned Palestinian dude- that would have not been able to roll the suitcase into Zara.

[01:16:47.160] - Caullen

Exactly.

[01:16:49.670] - Muhammad

He takes it out and starts- and he's like, Dude, the second I started chanting, everyone just threw their shit on the ground and dipped. They're just like, Oh, hell no!

[01:16:57.850] - David

They're like, Nope.

[01:16:58.410] - Caullen

Like folks at Zara?

[01:17:00.010] - Muhammad

Yeah, in Zara. Like, the shoppers.

[01:17:01.840] - Caullen

This 17-year-old white girl who works there, cashiers.

[01:17:04.310] - Muhammad

The person who came down from Janesville, Wisconsin to shop at Zara was like, Oh hell no, I'm not sticking around to find out what's about to happen. They just threw their shit on the ground and dipped.

[01:17:14.320] - Caullen

He should've just been like, "Allah Akbar!", just to see what happens. Let's just see what happens.

[01:17:18.360] - Muhammad

Yeah, right.

[01:17:19.220] - David

Oh my goodness gracious. But we see it, right? We see power in existence and resistance.

[01:17:25.500] - Muhammad

Absolutely.

[01:17:27.000] - David

I think we've made it now to the present. In terms of what we're seeing, what the landscape looks like. I think the most recent thing I've seen is floor plans came out for summer homes over Israel, right? But what I'm getting at is proof, right? Information, of like, this was part of the plan the entire time. I was going to mention it- I'm all pro-conspiracy, but 9/11 was also done by, I would assume, the American government. Some would say that the Hamas attack was done by the Israeli government because Netanyahu, whatever. I like those little funnels. Not to say they're real. This is Bourbon 'n BrownTown, I'm not, you know, but-

[01:18:08.510] - Caullen

It's David's thoughts, not representative of Bourbon 'n BrownTown.

[01:18:09.590] - Muhammad

I would also disagree. I think Netanyahu's political career is over because of October 7th, and he's trying to... This genocide is him trying to grip onto power. But I think him, the defense minister, and Ben-Gvir, the Interior Minister, that horrific racist, I think that they all know... In Arabic, we say [speaking in Arabic]. "Their paper has been burned". And that's when you're done-done. He's done-done. As soon as this is over, he's done-done. And he knows that. Anyway, sorry.

[01:18:36.180] - David

No, that's why I got to talk to you. And that's why we got to here.

[01:18:39.030] - Muhammad

I love a good conspiracy.

[01:18:40.210] - Caullen

Well, we know so much to be true! We know so much to be true. So much is well documented, you don't have to go that far. But also, yeah, let's fuck around, fuck around.

[01:18:48.200] - David

No, but I love it. But, Muhammad, thank you so much for hanging out with us.

[01:18:50.870] - Muhammad

Yeah, man. Thank you all so much for having me.

[01:18:52.120] - David

I think this has been absolutely fantastic.

[01:18:52.580] - David

I do want to give you an opportunity to... If we have a first-time listener or a hundred-time listener, what's something that can get easily plugged into here in Chicago or abroad that you'd like to share with folks, and/or any shoutouts you want to give out?

[01:19:04.880] - Muhammad

Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, I think everything that I do, I do as part of the US Palestinian Community Network. And that's because I believe deeply in what we believe. I believe deeply in our organization. I believe deeply in our people. So I would ask folks for those who are not as old as me that are on Instagram and the other things, check out USPCN on all the social medias, we should be on all of them. You can follow our work that way. Here locally in Chicago, we organize as part of a coalition called the Coalition for Justice in Palestine. We were the ones who've been doing those weekly actions and everything. You could follow Coalition for Justice in Palestine for updates and see how to plug in and everything. And I think those are the first two good ways. Plug in, come out to a rally, come out to a USPCN event, reach out to us if you want to reach out to us; if you got an idea, if you got questions or whatever, we're cool with it all. We got people who will help direct folks. I think that's the first-first big plug that I would give.

[01:20:13.320] - Muhammad

I think the second one, too, is that I just want to plug is, yesterday at the Health and Human Relations Committee, our champion and awesome alderwoman, Rossana Rodriguez-

[01:20:24.440] - Caullen

B'nB alum, shout out.

[01:20:25.810] - Muhammad

Yeah. Working alongside Daniel La Spata and Jessie and Byron and so many others. I'm not doing justice because there were multiple people in that meeting. But they advanced a ceasefire resolution onto city council. And huge, huge respect and shout out to Chicago Progressive Staffers who have done so much work to move this forward. And making sure that we have, in this city, we have the opportunity for our city to be on the right side of history, which is to call for a permanent ceasefire right now. And again, ceasefire is the floor not the ceiling. We've got to stop Israel's bombing so that we can address the rest of it.

[01:21:11.318] - Caullen

Exactly.

[01:21:11.660] - Muhammad

So I think between now and the next city council hearing, which I believe is going to be January 26th, maybe I'm wrong on that date, 24th, 26th, we should be just hammering all of our alderpeople to say, Hey, this is the bare minimum. We're not asking for anything crazy, we're saying that-

[01:21:30.020] - Caullen

We're really not. We're really not.

[01:21:31.100] - Muhammad

I got a lot of crazy asks.

[01:21:32.940] - Caullen

Yeah. We'll get there.

[01:21:33.950] - Muhammad

But I'm putting them on hold.

[01:21:34.710] - Caullen

We'll get there.

[01:21:35.180] - Muhammad

Right now, they're on hold.

[01:21:36.530] - Caullen

Muhammad's sacrificing his own-

[01:21:37.950] - Muhammad

My own crazy asks.

[01:21:39.320] - Caullen

Just to get the bare minimum.

[01:21:41.560] - Muhammad

Yeah, just to get this. I think that that's definitely another thing that everyone can do. Everyone who lives in the city has got an alderperson. If you've got a shitty alderperson like mine, Marty Quinn, who keeps losing.

[01:21:54.420] - Caullen

Yes, name names! I love it, let's go!

[01:21:56.530] - Muhammad

Marty Quinn and Ray Lopez are just going to keep taking Ls in this city. But even if you've got a shitty alderperson like mine, call them, too. Bother them about it.

[01:22:05.400] - Caullen

If you see them in public, yell at them.

[01:22:06.900] - Muhammad

Yeah, yell at them and just say: Man, first of all, you're embarrassing that you tried to roll back the Sanctuary City and welcoming city that we have in the city. Secondly, you're embarrassing for standing against Black liberation, police accountability forever. Third, now, you're embarrassing for doing the bare minimum on Palestine. I actually want to ask Marty Quinn, How much things do you have to lose before you just...

[01:22:26.060] - David

Quit your job!

[01:22:26.800] - Muhammad

Yeah yeah! Just forget about... Isn't it embarrassing to lose that much in this city? I'm embarrassed for you. You represent me, I'm embarrassed. Yeah, folks like him. Folks like Ray Lopez, who clearly is the vanguard of the right-wing in the city right now. So let's bother all of them, that's our other marching orders. And again, huge, huge shout out to folks like La Spata, and Rossana, and Byron, and Jessie, and others who have stuck their neck out for our people, to the Chicago Progressive Staffers that did so much. And now the rest of us, let's do what we need to do, and let's get this ceasefire resolution passed. We need 26 votes. Let's get 26 votes.

[01:23:05.750] - David

That's it.

[01:23:06.480] - Caullen

I'm loving seeing the staffers come out, both in Chicago and abroad.

[01:23:09.650] - Muhammad

Yeah. I mean, shit, Biden's staffers came.

[01:23:11.200] - David

Joe Biden's staffers.

[01:23:11.930] - Caullen

Yeah. It's like, if Biden's staffs, coming at your neck...

[01:23:14.690] - Muhammad

For real. Like, collar pull right?

[01:23:16.810] - Caullen

Collar Yank. Goodness. The thread I want to pull on a little bit, but I want to put the floor to you again, Muhammad- can you tell us what is around your neck? You have a garment of clothing on, can you tell us more about what that is?

[01:23:27.240] - Muhammad

Oh yeah yeah. So this is a keffiyeh, it's called. Or a "hattah," sometimes called. It's a traditionally... There's some debate about the history. But one of the theories is that it actually originates in Kufa, Iraq, and that's where it gets the name "kufiyyeh" from. But in our modern context, Palestinian farmers, peasants would wear this. And so it actually originally became a symbol of Palestinian resistance in the 1936 uprising against the British colonialism; in which people from the cities who would wear more modern clothing started wearing the keffiyeh as a way to blend in with- it became, not only a symbol of the national uprising, but they used it as a tactic to be able to essentially evade so that they could carry on the resistance. So they would just be like, Yeah no, I'm just a farmer passing through, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

[01:24:26.810] - Caullen

Sure, sure.

[01:24:27.720] - Muhammad

And then more famously, in modern history, Palestinian leaders wore it. Yasser Arafat, for example, was famous for wearing the keffiyeh. And then it's continued to be a symbol of solidarity with the Palestinian people, a national symbol for the Palestinian people, it comes in. And then Arab people in general oftentimes wear it, too. So it's got that history; it's a national symbol for the Palestinian people, it's also a symbol for Arab people in general, too.

[01:24:56.860] - Muhammad

This one that I have- it's the HIRBAWI factory, which is the last keffiyeh factory in Palestine. Who I actually think have shut down orders because they are not able to keep up anymore. And they're in the occupied West Bank. It's the last keffiyeh factory in Palestine, but you can look them up. Maybe as this period passes or as they catch up to orders, you can find it. But this one that I brought today, one is from them and two is a gift that I brought for SoapBox for you all.

[01:25:26.590] - Caullen

Holy shit! Y'all that was not a planted question, I did not know that.

[01:25:29.930] - Muhammad

No, that was not a planted question.

[01:25:31.510] - Caullen

We planned a lot of questions in this show, that was not one of them.

[01:25:34.440] - Muhammad

I was going to do that- I was going to do it off air, but I would love for you all to have this, to be able to hang it up, to be able to display it as a sign of gratitude from USPCN to you all.

[01:25:43.260] - David

Yoooo!

[01:25:43.260] - Caullen

That means so much. I was thinking about it because obviously, we've seen a lot more in the past couple of months or whatever, and because of folks trying to signal a certain way.

[01:25:52.630] - David

We talked about streetwear and activism.

[01:25:54.750] - Caullen

We've had a two part series with our homie Hannah Linsky- shout out- about the politics of fashion.

[01:25:59.330] - Muhammad

Oh, dope. Okay

[01:25:59.880] - Caullen

Intentionally and not intentionally wearing stuff to signal certain things. And that's something that I've thought about in the past, in the recent couple of months because of everything that's happening, because of that. And I had read about the history because I've seen it more. And I kinda knew it, but not really, so thank you for that.

[01:26:12.590] - Muhammad

Yeah, for sure.

[01:26:13.210] - Caullen

And it makes me think about how you tap in, how you get in where you fit in, as David says, in anything you're doing, there's always a way. Sometimes it's just signaling with your dress. You're not saying a word, you're just going to go and get groceries and walk back home, but you're saying something, which is what's adorned on your body, which I think is important.

[01:26:30.970] - Muhammad

Absolutely.

[01:26:31.270] - Caullen

I think it's super important. I think, yeah, get in where you fit in, there's always ways to signal, to get involved, to change your material conditions, to just have those conversations- it all matters. There's a beautiful moment, in an episode of the Boondocks. I think Huey, I think it's the one where he's in the hunger strike against BET. And he's so hungry and so tired. And, obviously, him and Granddad, they do not agree politically, whatever; but Granddad loves him. And Huey says, Granddad, what do you do when you can't do nothing? There's nothing you can do. Granddad looks at him and he says, You do what you can. It's just a beautiful tender moment of these two folks. I think about that when I hear you as far as- You're not in the industry, not what you're doing, there's always a way. It may feel little, it's not; just do it, feel good about it, mobilize more folks around you to do it. And that's how we get free.

[01:27:25.480] - Muhammad

Yeah, 100%.

[01:27:27.010] - David

Yo, I appreciate you, Muhammad.

[01:27:28.910] - Muhammad

Thank you all.

[01:27:28.920] - David

I think this is such a touching way to end it. I just want to close off with a meme, not a meme, but a social media thing. That even Caullen sent me earlier today. It's like, when I was young, I thought things were bad because solutions were complicated. Now I'm older-older, and realize things are bad because solutions are simple, but will inconvenience affluent people. Or those who aspire to be. I think that's- we didn't really talk about that. And religious fanatics, which we didn't give them too much space in this episode for a reason, but I do think it's definitely something to think through. So shout out. It's getting cold, stay warm. Continue loving your people. And always, from Bourbon 'n BrownTown, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.

[01:28:10.800] - Caullen

Stay tuned, stay turnt.

[01:28:11.970] - David

See you for the next one. Thanks, y'all.

OUTRO

Outro song 47SOUL by Dabke System.