BrownTown shares space with frequent collaborator, Isiah “ThoughtPoet” Veney, photographer, A&R, organizer, and overall creative from Chicago's South Side. ThoughtPoet and BrownTown unpack the Afro-futuristic and "hood empathetic" themes of his photography work, his and SoapBox's collaboration in the "One Million Experiments" film, lessons from the 2020 uprisings, and more. What does community-building really look like in Chicago's growing multidisciplinary creative scene when coupled with abolitionist politics and possibilities? Here's their take. Originally recorded October 25, 2023.
BrownTown shares space with frequent collaborator, Isiah “ThoughtPoet” Veney, photographer, A&R, organizer, and overall creative from Chicago's South Side. ThoughtPoet and BrownTown unpack the Afro-futuristic and "hood empathetic" themes of his photography work, his and SoapBox's collaboration in the "One Million Experiments" film, lessons from the 2020 uprisings, and more. What does community-building really look like in Chicago's growing multidisciplinary creative scene when coupled with abolitionist politics and possibilities? Here's their take. Originally recorded October 25, 2023.
Transcriptions Available Here!
GUEST
Isiah “ThoughtPoet” Veney is a photographer, writer, A&R, and creative director from the Chatham and Burnside area of Chicago. While recently being named a Black history maker by the Chicago Sun Times and ever since his highlighted works with Truestar Magazine showcasing Chicago’s musical talent, he has been on a mission to capture and express powerful opinions and perceptions through imagery and writing. His #HeartMelanin portrait series (since 2013), is a collection of emotions and snapshots of the Black Chicago renaissance. He is also founder of the creative agency Unsocial Aesthetics (site, IG) which helps artists with their creative pursuits while also explaining the Black Chicago origins connected to the scene. Follow him on Instagram and Twitter!
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Mentioned Topics:
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CREDITS: Intro song Chronic Chronicles by Water & Farmabeats and outro song Smoke Anthem by Stock Marley. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles. Episode photo by Jansen B.
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Bourbon ’n BrownTown
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SoapBox Productions and Organizing, 501(c)3
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BrownTown shares space with frequent collaborator, Isiah “ThoughtPoet” Veney, photographer, A&R, organizer, and overall creative from Chicago's South Side. ThoughtPoet and BrownTown unpack the Afro-futuristic and "hood empathetic" themes of his photography work, his and SoapBox's collaboration in the "One Million Experiments" film, lessons from the 2020 uprisings, and more. What does community-building really look like in Chicago's growing multidisciplinary creative scene when coupled with abolitionist politics and possibilities? Here's their take. Originally recorded October 25, 2023.
INTRO
[00:00:59.920]
Intro song Chronic Chronicles by Water & Farmabeats.
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:16.100] - David
I'd like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy, D-Money, coming to you from Chicago, "Drillinois." Like it's 2011.
[00:01:24.370] - Caullen
He's very much feeling himself with that.
[00:01:26.710] - David
I'm dead. But it's your boy David. At the Harambe Studios. As always, with my boy, Caullen. Caullen, man, how are you doing?
[00:01:33.150] - Caullen
I'm doing all right. Doing all right. I was traveling, what, two weeks ago at this point? I feel like I haven't got my bearings yet. I've been in this stress, but excited, but energetic, but also super tired place. Had surgery last week. It's been a whole two weeks. It's been a whole last two weeks.
[00:01:50.340] - David
Whole as two weeks.
[00:01:50.340] - Caullen
As the young folks say. But sitting in this space now, I'm feeling decent. I feel like another iteration of the healing journey that is ongoing for the homies. But just quick note, listeners, I gave him the D-Money nickname. I want everyone to know that. You heard it here first.
[00:02:10.580] - David
It's like we're 101 episodes in, and he wants to claim it now.
[00:02:13.170] - Caullen
You can't just... You got to be humble a little bit. Then you got to give when you can. How are you feeling?
[00:02:18.300] - David
We're definitely a mixed bag of emotions. I think, it's been fun these last few times doing Bourbon 'n BrownTown. And I've just been able to… On the drive here I was like, David, how am I doing today? You know what I'm saying? I heard Caullen asking me this question, and I was like…
[00:02:34.740] - Caullen
Prepping.
[00:02:35.470] - David
I feel heavy. You know what I'm saying? There's so much going on, and unfortunately, a lot of that is not what it needs to be. We're literally seeing a genocide happen on the other side of the world with our brothers and sisters. But at the same time, we're also seeing resistance. We're seeing motherfuckers being told, Hey, you got to shut down your hospital. They're like, No, fuck you, I'm not shutting down my hospital because people need this space. You're seeing the beauty of what humanity can be up against these almost end of the world type powers. I think I've just been very grateful to continue to see the people in my circles, the people in my spaces, being for liberation and understanding the connections between it. So definitely just feeling a lot.
[00:03:24.130] - David
I did think about, we will have another conversation, but with the silencing that we're seeing from across the world and other people being blacklisted. Or whatever the terminology you want to use. Shadow banned. We got to take every opportunity to say it. So free Palestine. But to your point, Caullen, I think there's opportunity and there's been healing, there's been growth. Here we are with episode 101. Oddly enough, still in Harambe studios. We haven't gone anywhere.
[00:03:53.150] - Caullen
We haven't gone anywhere yet. I like "episode 101: Class is in Session."
[00:03:58.520] - David
That's it. If you ain't known before-
[00:03:59.960] - Caullen
Movie theater trailer voice type shit.
[00:04:01.590] - David
Yo, go check out all of our other 100 episodes before jumping in on this one. But I appreciate y'all being here with us. Really excited for this episode, an episode that has been in the making for some time now. But even then, our guest has been making a name for themselves for the last few years, for reals, for reals. And so we're very blessed to get into the shit.
[00:04:26.640] - Caullen
Yes, we are. And for y'all that don't know, and you should, we got with us Isiah "ThoughtPoet" Veney with us. If you don't know, Isiah is a photographer, writer, A&R, and creative director from the Chatham and Burnside area of Chicago. While recently being named a Black history maker by the Chicago Sun Times, and ever since his highlighted works with Truestar magazine showcasing Chicago's musical talent, he has been on a mission to capture and express powerful opinions and perceptions through imagery and writing. His #HeartMelanin portrait series, in progress since 2013- it's a decade, y'all- is a collection of emotions and snapshots of the Black Chicago renaissance. He is also founder of the creative agency Unsocial Aesthetics, which helps artists with their creative pursuits while also explaining more of the Black Chicago origins connected to the scene. ThoughtPoet, what's going on, my friend?
[00:05:20.140] - David
What's good, bro? How are you doing?
[00:05:21.770] - ThoughtPoet
I'm cool, man. Very excited to be here. Yeah! I'm definitely excited to get into the shits, as well. But yeah, I think I've been in a place of really just deep reflection. I think the clips was last week or some shit. So that shit hit me for real, for real. But I feel like it was in... I'm assuming God just has a plan. You feel me? And I feel like everything that's been happening has been for a reason. So the fact that this is episode 101, I feel like that's a full circle thing. Because we're talking about all the things that have been taking place in this city and the good, the bad, and just all in between. I feel like that's something to really marvel in because I've been building with y'all for three years. Yeah, I feel like right after I got arrested, I think y'all was one of the first people I saw. Other actions and shit, you feel me? I'm always excited to get up with the homies and talk about all this shit.
[00:06:36.720] - Caullen
Yeah. Blessings, bro. I appreciate hearing that.
[00:06:38.050] - ThoughtPoet
For sure.
[00:06:39.190] - Caullen
And that's where my mind went, too, after we intro'd you. It was like, okay, I think people don't understand who you are yet, of course. Guys gotta keep listening. But also just how our relationship- I don't even mean SoapBox and Thought, but just David, Caullen, and Isiah. You know what I mean? What I would love to do, and I can go first, is spear off how we first met and then how our relationship has transpired since then. Whether personally, and also work stuff and whatever, then go into the themes we wanted to toy with today.
[00:07:14.990] - Caullen
But I think I can't remember the first time I saw one of your photos, but I know I followed you on Instagram. It was probably 2019 or even maybe before that. Maybe. But especially then, pre-COVID, SoapBox, we were doing our thing. I was a year or so out of grad school, which we did with DePaul University and Chi DNA, which project we're still going now. Through that project, I got exposed to a broader Chicago rap- underground rap and also drill rap scene, personally, because I had to for what I was researching. We followed around Tweak’G for most of that documentary and some of the projects and stuff. So I was meeting a lot of people in that space and even then was seeing the overlap of movement and music. And all kinds of music and all kinds of movement.
[00:08:04.110] - Caullen
So I found your page at some point, and definitely right away, could see how unique and specific your style was. I guess fast forward to COVID, I guess fast forward to uprisings, and I would see a lot more of your work, mainly on Instagram and other places, too. To your point, summer 2020 hits, everyone's out in the streets, everyone's creating, everyone's protesting, everyone's holding space, everyone's organizing. So I would just see you in person a lot more places and stuff. I think then, we've always been out at actions and things, but then there was something every day. So we had to be really strategic about who goes where and covers what. But even with that, it was the same folks, the bigger actions and stuff. I think I feel like I knew who you were and how you connected, BYP100, and other things about how you came to movement, at least how I thought you came to movement. Then we started talking more, and then kinda...
[00:08:58.140] - Caullen
From then to now, to your point, we'll put an article out or we'll have something out. Hey, we have this thing, it's with XYZ, we don't have any photos, can we borrow this? All right, bet. Then 2020 happens, SoapBox starts getting a little more bread for whatever reason. So we're like, Hey, we have this thing, we can actually pay you for this. Can we see what's good? Collaborating in that way, working on campaigns together and stuff. Both documenting and seeing: how do we message this to our people as well as the broader community, but also organizing organizing. Zoom calls, and the spreadsheets, and the shit that's not cute and sexy to see all the time.
[00:09:40.500] - Caullen
Then we get to One Million Experiments with the Respair Media/AirGo, shout out to the gang, and creating that half-hour project that's visual and has lots of beautiful imagery and is truly an abolitionist product as far as trying something new and also collaborating in ways that are not always timely. Can we make that? We can get that later, too, as far as how that portion of the film comes together, because I think it's really, really, really special.
[00:10:09.170] - Caullen
Then we're here now. I think just as far as movement/organizing/music culture scene in Chicago, and me being a transplant, getting a taste of that in college, not much until after college, getting more entrenched in that world. From an abolitionist organizing perspective and from just creating something that didn't exist before perspective. I think we've all had, I think, important places in this lexicon. And that's what's making me really excited to be in this space with you now. Just to talk about the shit versus we're working or organizing- we're chopping here and there between takes, it's like, Fuck, this is not the good time to talk about this. Talking about accountability, repaying harm. It's like, I have a lot to say about that, but also I got.... we're doing this thing.
[00:10:52.514] - ThoughtPoet
Type shit.
[00:10:52.640] - Caullen
That's me. I know that was long-winded, I apologize.
[00:10:55.480] - ThoughtPoet
No no, that was perfect.
[00:10:55.720] - Caullen
But I'm curious for where both of y'all are coming to it with all us.
[00:11:00.150] - ThoughtPoet
For me, being a photographer, also being an organizer, I was always in the... I was always around. I feel like I've been in this shit since 2015. I guess when we talk about... I guess when Black Lives Matter became a really big thing in Chicago, if you will. So building with Black Youth Project 100, building with Let Us Breathe Collective, working with other individuals and orgs like KOCO and stuff like that. I think it put me in a space where being born and raised from here, I was still going through a lot of culture shocks as far as just understanding what does it mean to organize through a Black feminist lens? What does it mean to be an abolitionist? What does it mean to even do community work in the structure of really doing what you're actually saying? And so I think in 2020, I feel like that's when I would see y'all around. And again, after I got arrested, day two of the George Floyd protests in Hyde Park. The Battle of Hyde Park, they're calling it now.
[00:12:23.920] - Caullen
They're calling it, which is....
[00:12:24.240] - ThoughtPoet
Interesting, right?
[00:12:27.000] - Caullen
Yeah, right. I don't know if it's a battle if one us is just hanging out and the other people have guns and batons.
[00:12:30.150] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah, it was like, mentally, I was in a space where my ex was already being abusive. And so then she was trying to call me out for something that I didn't do. I had gotten arrested-
[00:12:45.560] - Caullen
Was this publicly? Or was it internally?
[00:12:46.870] - ThoughtPoet
No, this was publicly. This was all throughout the shits. This was actually before I met y'all. I feel like, because all of this was happening all at once throughout that year of 2020. And so, yeah, me not being centered when I got arrested. Folks like Malcolm London being called out for the third time. Organizations like Young Chicago Authors being called out. There was a lot of, I'm not even going to say reform, there was just a lot of tearing shit down when it came to the Chicago scene in 2020. And I feel like y'all caught me in a space where I was very afraid of everything around me. Just because I didn't know who to trust. I didn't really feel protected. I didn't really feel safe. But I understood that the youth of the city were constantly asking me to take up space with them. Because the organizers I came up with, they were nowhere to be seen.
[00:13:56.390] - ThoughtPoet
In fact, there were stories about organizers being at retreats while the youth were getting their ass whooped and maced at actions. And that turned into people like Mohawk Johnson having a case that he just actually got a chance to get out of. And so when y'all met me, y'all were like, I'm not even going to say excited, y'all were just very... It just seemed like y'all understood. And it's like, I think for me, I guess I've always been an empath. I've always been able to sense energy, and I just knew immediately y'all were like, Yo, we're here. For me, I appreciated that. You feel me? It wasn't even like y'all were like, like you said, we would have or try to have conversations, and we'd be looking at 50 to 30 policemen with battle armor on and shit. So we were like, Hey, let's have this conversation afterwards, you know what I'm saying?
[00:14:52.340] - Caullen
We have Mordor over there and the orcs of-
[00:14:55.400] - ThoughtPoet
You know what I mean? We were really-
[00:14:56.900] - Caullen
I just got a camera, I can't really do much with this.
[00:14:59.350] - ThoughtPoet
So it's like, we were in very interesting spaces. And the fact that I could trust y'all meant a lot to me. And so, creatively and in the organizing work, I feel like I began to build with y'all more. I feel like y'all were looking at me as someone that if I didn't know what I was talking about, at least I was able to, I guess, point people in the right direction. I didn't take that lightly just because I realized that it was so many just different entities at that time that were just very destructive. Even outside of the opposing force that we were organizing against. Internally, there was just a lot of harm, there was a lot of non-trust. And I think y'all were in a space where I was like, No, I can trust these people. I think with all of the campaigns that we've contributed to in one way or another, I think, again, this episode is a full circle of that.
[00:16:07.520] - ThoughtPoet
Because I feel like it's always been, especially when it comes to creating content that really tells the stories of Chicago, I feel like y'all are very deep into that organizing part of it. I feel like y'all have really inspired me to really reinvent myself to be able to tell my version of the organizing part and also the creative part. And yeah, that's how I feel like y'all helped me really structure what Unsocial Aesthetics is, my creative agency. And y'all really did help me structure who I am. Because when people used to compare me to the TikTok star Dilla from here, that's from Chicago, as far as him being a historian. And I'm like, interesting, I never thought about that.
[00:16:57.850] - David
Am I a historian?
[00:16:58.690] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah. People have been like, you're a documentarian, you're a historian. I'm just like, I'm a nigga that takes photos.
[00:17:05.660] - Caullen
That's an Instagram bio right there. "ThoughtPoet: nigga that takes photos."
[00:17:08.370] - ThoughtPoet
You know what I mean? I had to really understand my value more and realize that not only were they right, but what I'm doing is very imperative to the next chapter that's happening in Chicago. I feel like every time I've text y'all, I'll be like, Yo, I got this idea. Y'all like, bet, we're going to figure this shit out. And we do that.
[00:17:29.520] - David
For me, just to close this circle of questionings around, I don't recall the moment, but I think there was a level of consistency with you and your work. And not even your work, but everyone wanted a piece of Thought, you know what I'm saying? It was not only getting a piece of Thought, but I think in everything that you presented during that 2020 run, I think was exactly what we at SoapBox are always looking for. So whether that was through collaborating on an editorial post that we were able to put together, uplifting Defund CPD, or to Caullen's point, just sharing media with one another. I think those are some early memories. And I think to me, we earn trust, to your point. And it's like, that consistency that you kept putting forth, showing up every day, even when we couldn't.
[00:18:27.990] - David
Because we're thinking about... I started today with being like, Yo, it's heavy today. 2020, I think we sometimes forget because time moves so quickly. But where this shit was from May to September, right? Everything in between, from personal situations to organizational and other. But not for us. For me, that was something very exciting that we were able to see with you and your work. And then how that's developed. I know I'm very excited to continue to see more and more of your creative platform.
[00:18:59.490] - ThoughtPoet
Appreciate that.
[00:18:59.490] - David
But I think from the get-go, I think you had a lens and you had the opportunity for social media. People were following you, because you were getting them shots. And you were bringing the theory. You were bringing the educational component that sometimes I feel a lot of creative work lacks.
[00:19:15.741] - Caullen
100%
[00:19:16.110] - David
And you did it in a very poetry-like captioning on your Instagram page. It starts as basic as that and then develops to be other. We've seen that, and just want to give flowers in that space there.
[00:19:27.880] - ThoughtPoet
Thank you for that. Funny enough, I feel like that came from me not believing in myself, actually. It came from me-
[00:19:39.000] - David
So you go to Instagram?
[00:19:40.110] - ThoughtPoet
No, not so.
[00:19:41.150] - David
I go to Twitter. But I hear you.
[00:19:42.110] - ThoughtPoet
So funny enough, it was- actually, in 2020, after I didn't get centered after being arrested. And while I was going through the situation that my ex was putting me through, I wasn't shooting, actually. I had actually stopped shooting. And I think for me, it was because, at the time- well, not at the time- but an organizer had used some of my photos for a Levi clothing company. It was an international Black History Month clothing-
[00:20:17.430] - David
What do you mean they used your photos? Were they wearing Levi's? Or was it just like, blue jean ass motherfuckers?
[00:20:21.600] - ThoughtPoet
No, they used the photos to uplift their own work. And they had promotional videos.
[00:20:28.160] - Caullen
Like, "This is my portfolio, hire me, Levi's"?
[00:20:29.530] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah. Again, it's 2020, and I'm seeing photos of 2016 or 2017 where we're trying to save Chicago State University. I'm just like, okay, that's cool, I guess. It would've been cool to have some type of support or credit, since I can't even feed myself. They were using my work to uplift the person, that was a part of. Because the person made some clothing for them, for their clothing company ad or whatever. And so they were using my work to uplift their work as an organizer in Chicago. And so for me-
[00:21:06.920] - David
Without talking to you about it.
[00:21:07.410] - ThoughtPoet
And again, I was more so like, as much as I was kinda okay with it, I was very hurt because I'm like, Man, this person really could have just talked to me about it. And in that same hour of me calling it out on social media, the person called me and was like, No, this isn't your photo, this is a photo that Ji had actually took- Love and Struggle Photos. I love Love and Struggle Photos very much. She's like my OG when it comes to even me knowing that you can do this. But I was just like, No, this is not her work. This is my work.
[00:21:47.270] - Caullen
I heard this story from a different vantage point from you, I think. Okay, keep it coming.
[00:21:50.930] - ThoughtPoet
For me, again, I went through a whole thing where this person, again, very high-profile person. They've benefited tremendously off of organizing work in Chicago. And again, it was like, you could have just shouted me out. I'm broke as hell. That could have helped me eat. And that happened, and I'm like, okay, so people just want to steal my work. And so I didn't think to delete anything. I was just like, I'm going to just sit. Because at that point, police was crank-calling my phone. I was trying to basically keep friendships and family around me because people were already like, Oh, you got arrested, you're just like your brother. Now we got two. Both of our sons got locked up or some shit. I'm like, Damn, all right? It was a very dark time.
[00:22:46.560] - ThoughtPoet
And Good Kids, Mad City and Chicago Freedom School, and KOCO, and a lot of the youth of the city were like, Yo, we need to do a banner drop, can you help us? I'm just like, There's no one else that can help y'all? And there really wasn't anyone else that could help them. And that's when I started realizing that the dismissing feeling I felt from not being centered when I got arrested, the feelings I had felt with everything that was going on with me, these youth were feeling it even worse. And again, like these youth, just like y'all said, me being consistent, they, I feel like, were being even more consistent than me. Because, again, we're getting pepper sprayed and getting our ass whooped with battle armor from police. And we are going to jail supports 48 hours straight with no sleep for real, for real. And we're still showing up for trainings and more actions and stuff. The words that I was creating, it was me being a writer, but it was really me being like, Yo, at the time, the news platforms in Chicago really weren't to be trusted. And it was really, no shade, but it was just like, you didn't know who was really saying the right-
[00:24:06.030] - Caullen
I'm all shade. Name names.
[00:24:07.990] - ThoughtPoet
I'm not even going to say... It's not even that I'm not going to name names. I just think that a lot of the platforms were focused on trying to make it seem like the youth were some juvenile delinquents.
[00:24:18.220] - Caullen
"The riots! The riots!"
[00:24:20.310] - ThoughtPoet
You know what I'm saying?
[00:24:21.660] - Caullen
"The Gucci store was robbed."
[00:24:23.790] - ThoughtPoet
You know what I'm saying? You had Miracle of Good Kids, Mad City who got her teeth knocked out because the media wanted to keep portraying her as she was somehow harassing the police. And again, I don't even think she was 18 yet. She had to have been 16, 17 at the time. Maybe even younger than that. And so it was like, again, seeing all of these things that the youth were speaking on. And it was almost as like the organizers that I came in the scene with, none of them were around. And I was realizing in that moment, it's like, okay, even if it's just me posting, I need folks to know what's going on. And so I feel like, again, after action, after action, after action, the actions that I led that people still talk about to this day, it really forced me to just really understand that my job in this city as a photographer, as a documenter, or even just a historian or a creative has always been to uplift what I love in my city.
[00:25:28.550] - ThoughtPoet
When I was a part of the music scene here, coming right out of high school, 2011 in thea blog era, I was homeless doing this work. Building with the Lyrical Lab and Truestar Magazine and uplifting people like Chance the Rapper and No Name and Saba and all of these folks. And so when Cole Bennett, of Lyrical Lemonade, copied my shit, it was like, damn. Like, okay, at least I know my shit works.
[00:25:54.019]
[crosstalk 00:25:54]
[00:25:54.280] - ThoughtPoet
At the time, I didn't think no one was going to believe that a Black kid did this thing and created and manifested this thing. And I felt that same way when I got arrested and I was just doing what I was doing. And it showed me, and again, even now, the city is showing me that my voice and my ability to take up space means something. And I think that's something that I've held onto dearly; just because I feel like that was one of the driving forces that has really helped create this new wave that's coming in Chicago right now, as far as organizing and doing the self-work and doing the healing work and doing the mental health work. And not constantly separating them. And realizing that this is all a collective thing to continue really combating the narrative of that we don't support each other. That we aren't there for each other. If we truly are collaborating, it don't matter what the mayor is doing because community is constantly advocating for itself.
[00:27:01.640] - ThoughtPoet
That's why you could look at neighborhoods like Englewood and be like, what in the fuck is going on? Like, KRS-One was in Englewood on 63rd and Ashland twice in the same year. I don't know about other places or other whatever, but it's just like, nigga, that's a bar. That's something that I truly cherish because that wasn't happening 10 years ago. You feel me? If you really are paying attention, the things that have been taking place in the last three years have really started shaping what's happening now. You know what I'm saying?
[00:27:36.200] - Caullen
Yeah. It's so much. I got all the notes. Thanks for sharing all that. I appreciate it. I can hear the heart and the soul. That's some of the stuff that I've felt from you in doses in the past couple of years. Which we haven't gotten to as much. So, I, personally, am happy to hear the full- at least part of the breath of it, I know there's always more.
[00:27:57.960] - ThoughtPoet
There's always more.
[00:27:58.600] - Caullen
I do have- I do want to give some context of some of that, and then also I want to move us to how that shapes your actual work. Just so folks who can't see your work because they're- hopefully they're scrolling your Instagram right now because they listened to the episode, an they're on the Instagram, so they're scrolling. Or if not, if you're not that person, which is fine. I do want to give folks an idea of what your work looks like and feels like. And some of the series you've had. And then investigate that music portion of it, and then some of the themes that we've talked about and coined a little bit pre-conversation. But before I do that, because it's kinda a lot, David, do you have immediate reactions or anything?
[00:28:34.380] - David
No, nothing immediate. To me, sometimes it's like, crazy shit's always popping off. Who we.... To me, I've been very, very grateful at the spaces that allow this type of shit. Today is this Bourbon 'n BrownTown episode. But being able to... It's kinda in and of itself, even just talk about it is healing. I feel like there's things that we're still... It's hard to let go of some shit. So that's where my brain goes into. We think about these last three years, and really, it's like...
[00:29:13.420] - ThoughtPoet
What you're speaking on as far as not being able to let things go that's... Oh man... It's almost a disease when it comes to being a part of this scene. It's not just in the organizing community, it's in the music community. I've even just had conversations with folks just a couple of weeks ago, a couple of months ago, where we were talking about huge artists that, it wasn't even their fault that things fell apart. But their actions and their non-ability to hold themselves accountable is keeping gaps in the scene. And this is their homies, this is their big brothers and big sisters telling them, Yo, the city loves you, bro. You got to come back and show love, bro. That's how we win. Chicago is not what it was in 2015 or in 2011. Chicago is different now. I'm one of those people that have held onto that hurt and have held onto things that make you feel like, Yo, the scene truly harmed me in a way where I can't forgive that shit. And it's like, it really do take a different type of healing to actually want to keep going.
[00:30:33.080] - ThoughtPoet
And that's, unfortunately, why a lot of people leave Chicago because that burnout is such a real thing. Where it's like, you really do question your mental health. You really do question your own value or own self-worth. And that's something that, with everything I'm trying to do with my own organizing now, I'm trying to make sure that people are knowing we can have these difficult conversations. We have to have these difficult conversations. And we can be mad as fuck at each other, you can cuss me out, I can cuss you out, but if we truly are trying to understand, it won't even get to that. If we truly are trying to understand the other person because we're trying to find the ability to agree to disagree, that's all that should matter. You know what I'm saying?
[00:31:19.440] - Caullen
I think it's tough. I'm assuming every industry or field of work is similar in this vein, too. Even in big cities where it's like, everybody knows everybody. I honestly don't think it's unique to movement/organizing/music and culture. But I also just don't know, because I don't know what the PR world is like.
[00:31:42.800] - Caullen
But I guess with that, I was trying to say, just with my own life and just from people I know and stuff, you tend to group folks together. Even though you know how that's a contract that isn't fair, isn't right, you do that type of thing. Especially if you haven't had that face-to-face engaging, restorative, or even not restorative, engagement just at all, you just don't know. So you start to make up narratives in your mind. I think anyone who's been in an intimate relationship of any kind knows that. But when it's on that level where it's somewhat visible or somewhat public, it does a different thing.
[00:32:17.370] - David
It heightens it, for sure.
[00:32:18.320] - Caullen
It heightens it, but it makes it just more complex. That's not easy to share publicly, so again, thank you for just being so vulnerable in this space. I think just.. From what I've heard from the deep stuff we've gotten into and also just some of the timeline things, I think we're talking, when we talk about music and underground music- especially underground rap and hip hop in Chicago- /movement, we're collectively talking early 2010s, 2011, 2012 to now. It was really 10 years of flashpoint moments in music on a huge level as well as Chicago. ie: a Kanye, ie: a Chance The Rapper type shit.
[00:33:02.900] - ThoughtPoet
I mean, look, man, and I know people aren't fond of this man right now, but if you were to watch the Kanye documentary and you were to take out Kanye, take him out of the equation. There was no Kanye West in the documentary, it was just everything else that was in that documentary. It would give you probably the deepest look into why Chicago- the term "Chicago hates you," that was the reason why it was created. Because the segregation, the want to hate on each other, the want to not be collaborative, and the want to feel like, Yo, you're better at podcasting than I am so I'm not going to fuck with you because I know that you probably would get a bag before I would. Instead of actually trying to learn from one another and be collaborative and all the other shit.
[00:33:57.970] - ThoughtPoet
And when it comes to... Even in the past two years with me working with artists and realizing and just letting them or reminding them of their value. And so we'll do something and it'll really be people that- it'll really be other artist that'll hit my line and be like, Yo, G, you ain't fucking with me. I'm like, damn, that's how you... And I mean, they will be snapping on me. Like, Yo, I saw you working with such and such, but you ain't working with me. I'm just like, Wow.... We really hate each other that much.
[00:34:33.460] - ThoughtPoet
When I really thought about it, I realized how much I was going to have to be the bigger person and really move and love when there was going to be nothing but hatred being spewed at me because of what I'm trying to do. Which is moving away where the art is being prioritized just as much as the community. In this moment right now, you've had at least 500 plus people that have complained about the organization TribeHouse, harming Black and Brown women, all in the name of "we uplift and support artists". And it's like, again, never been in a TribeHouse party, never went to the shit. And the only reason why is because, again, Black and Brown women kept coming up to me and being like, Yo, I heard you be on some community shit, I just want to let you know that I believe in what you're doing- I just want to let you know that this person is very fucking harmful and should not be in spaces. And I'm just sitting there like, Okay. Clearly, I have to keep coming and stepping in to be where I need to be in community. And that's what other people need to be doing just as much. And I think 2020 really shook a lot of that.
[00:35:57.520] - ThoughtPoet
When, again, Kevin Coval was let go of Young Chicago Authors and Chicago Reader put out that article, it wasn't for clout. That was to really shed light on over hundreds of people that had been harmed all in the name of, "oh, If you work with Kevin Coval, he's going to put you on type shit." And it's made it where when we talk about safe spaces in Chicago, when it comes to community, when it comes to art, when it comes to just being someone that's in the LGBTQ community, these things become an issue. If I wasn't who I was and I was just a photographer, I would not be trusted. Just because so many Black men that have posed as photographers have caused so much harm.
[00:36:44.670] - ThoughtPoet
And I'm realizing that it's just high levels of people not calling things out, people not really meaning what they mean when they do organizing. And more importantly, people not really doing the work, that self-care work. And I feel like, again, what's going on with this new wave in the city, there's a real priority in making sure that you are talking the talk and you're walking the walk. So even when you talk about being a transplant, and there was a time where people didn't care much about that. But people really give a fuck about that now because they really want to know the people that are doing the work is like, Yo, can we trust you? It ain't even about if you ain't from here or not, it's like, Can we trust that you ain't on no Ja'Mal Green shit? Can you actually be a person that we know is going to actually do the work? And it's like, Yo, I love my mans Ja'Mal, but my mans was fucking tweaking. And I tell him that, and he don't want to listen. But it's like, Yo.
[00:37:46.040] - Caullen
"Tweaking" is being nice.
[00:37:46.040] - ThoughtPoet
We both came from Truestar Magazine. We both were trained under DeAnna and Na-Tae', who are amazing amazing grandmasters at what they do in this world of media in Chicago, bro. So again, you call yourself doing what you're doing, and you're backing a man that other organizers, specifically Black and Brown women, are telling you, Yo, this dude works for the police. This dude got the Fraternity of Police in his back pocket. Fuck is you doing? It's like, Come on, dog. You tweaking. I don't care how many co-signs you think you're going to get. It's like, You're not for the people if you can't listen. And that's all this is, is being able to listen to the community, bro.
[00:38:28.200] - David
Naw, I think if he took it in the heat, like, Oohh, I could be a meme. That's what he heard.
[00:38:31.500] - ThoughtPoet
Look, man. That's... I mean, look..
[00:38:32.240] - Caullen
There were a lot of moments- you spoke to a lot- and something that I just wasn't privy to and just hearing it and everything, I'm always telling guests, "name names!" And you named names. Like, Oh, he's doing it. But I was like, All right, I'm going to tread. I was like, I'm going to tread, and then he mentioned Ja'Mal Green, and then I was like, Get him!
[00:38:46.380] - ThoughtPoet
I got this theory. Y'all not finna throw hands. I'm just being honest. It's like, y'all truly got a problem with what I got to say, throw hands. Because it's like, at the end of the day, this is the things that, once again, Black and Brown women keep bringing up. And it's like, at the end of the day, if we really call ourselves organizers or people of community, our job is to listen. And I feel like this year, 2023, really taught me how to listen. Because it's like, again, these are things that I'm just like, I'm just trying to maintain, bro. I'm going through shit. You feel me? I'm trying to process my dad not being here anymore. But I'm realizing every time I even sit, the youth of the community, the Black and Brown women of the community, continue to call out what needs to be called out and uplift what needs to be uplifted. So it's just like, I'm doing my part, and the goal is to make sure if you claim you about community, you have to do your part.
[00:39:51.290] - ThoughtPoet
So if people are saying that you're tweaking, you're tweaking, bro. It's just that simple. If someone was to say, I was tweaking, I'd be like, You know what? Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. You feel me? That's the problem. I feel like when we get to these situations where, like you just said, it's like, oh, man, we ain't supposed to say that person's name. It's like, well, who in the fuck are we supposed to talk about it then? Because then you have people who truly have been harmed by these situations that want to speak on it and they don't get a chance to. And like we said earlier, that's how that hurt starts sticking to your ribs, where you don't even want to do this shit no more.
[00:40:28.030] - Caullen
Thinking of all that, there's like.... accountability, is words that comes up. And how we think we're using a kind of language, special language that is tied to something like policy that really matters and/or just how we understand things inter-communially type of thing. And how it could be used and weaponized or redefined in weird and twisted ways. But also be really a rock for folks' relationships. I hear a lot from you as far as folks coming to you and seeing you as someone they can go to and trust. We mentioned earlier about trust and that being a big thing. Trust in relationships is obviously a big thing, but also I heard something last night from Ray, Deputy Mayor of- I think, Immigrant Relations of some sort.
[00:41:16.960] - David
Yeah, shout out.
[00:41:17.740] - Caullen
Shout out. Coming from movement. They mentioned something last night at an event with Crossroads Fund. I think the question posed was like, How do you work with certain agencies that are life affirming, needing resources for immigrants and stuff, and then also having your next call is the police? Or another entity that you just- from your job to have to? They're like, I move at the speed of trust. I believe that was the situation. But that stuck out to me either way, as far as how you can be afforded that and how that can make you feel good in the long run and probably be better. But also sometimes… It's funny because you mentioned you trusted us earlier on. Because I felt like in 2020- not even personally or anything- but just how the world was working, I also knew we had to be rigid in security culture and making sure we weren't talking to ops and all the things.
[00:42:05.000] - David
We didn't trust anybody.
[00:42:05.610] - Caullen
But also, shit was happening all the time. You had to trust earlier than you wanted to because you just had to get shit out or had to understand something or had to do something, had to organize. Because the moment was there and there was- material conditions change, it was more of a possibility for that moment. But you just had to. And you saw what sustained itself and what didn't. And then- and/or how you acted out of busyness or having to trust too early, or be trusted too early, but not being ready to hold that in a certain way. I think from you talking about what you've been through, I think about us in this room, trying not to stand anymore on high ground. Knowing that we have caused harm and harm has been caused towards us. So it's like, okay, I can recognize it easier, but how am I… That nuanced way, it's not super overt, how am I doing that? Am I doing what I want other folks to do as well? That type of thing. Just everything there. It's interesting because I feel like if someone who is listening to this and is new to ThoughtPoet or new to even our work, whatever, it's a lot of context in here...
[00:43:06.750] - David
Stuff is heavy as hell.
[00:43:06.750] - Caullen
And that's why I wanted to mention 10 years ago to now, and movement, and music, and just everything.
[00:43:13.520] - David
It's all connected, bro.
[00:43:13.520] - Caullen
I think it is... I think anyone who's interested enough to listen to this episode knows at least enough about organizing or activism, or at least films and movies and culture and stuff and how that changes. And how, two months new trend of, and the old trend was dead. I think with, unfortunately, things that really matter, like Black Lives, also can move that fast as well. We're not where we were in 2020 or even 2021. But how we sustain that and have the experiential practices, but also the organizing skills or legacy or journey as well as with lived experience, put it all together, I think that really matters. That doesn't happen overnight. We're talking about 10 years for all of us. Plus. I wanted to name the timeline, than just somewhere grabby towards how we're meeting these two things as well as the personal stuff.
[00:44:06.540] - Caullen
One thing I've heard you say before on different podcast episodes and also on Instagram and just in the world is, hood empathy. Or being hood empathetic. If it feels safe to move, I'm curious what is- community definition and what that means.
[00:44:25.550] - David
Community definition, I love that.
[00:44:27.070] - Caullen
And how that fills into your work and kinda the things you've mentioned for the last little bit.
[00:44:32.050] - ThoughtPoet
I'm almost sure either Damon Williams of the Let Us Breathe Collective coined that phrase.
[00:44:40.360] - Caullen
God damn, Damon Williams.
[00:44:41.290] - ThoughtPoet
Or Westside Gunn.
[00:44:41.980] - Caullen
He pops up again.
[00:44:43.120] - ThoughtPoet
Westside Gunn.
[00:44:43.730] - Caullen
Why I outta!
[00:44:44.760] - ThoughtPoet
It's either one of them. I'm almost sure one of them coined that phrase. But again, I was raised looking at Gordon Parks books when I was a kid. So when I finally did get into photography, for me, it was always wanting to tell the different types of Black stories I felt like Gordon Parks were always telling. And for me, it was always seeing that energy in the hood. For me, I love photos where I'm looking at the corner stores. I'm looking at the fire hydrants, often the kids playing in the water. Or I'm looking at the different street signs. I love that in other people's work just because I feel like that tells the structure of the place that you're trying to be a part of. And I feel like, because my grandma was an artist and she raised me the way she did when it comes to art, I always wanted to represent what I was around. I was the weird art kid growing up and shit. It was like, I got raised on smooth jazz. WNUA. V-103, the dusties.
[00:46:00.070] - Caullen
[smooth jazz voice] You gotta do the smooth jazz voice.
[00:46:01.370] - ThoughtPoet
No, for real. Herb Kent. "The Cool Gent." You feel me? That's what I got raised on. When I got into hip hop, I felt like it was the older brother I never had. That really guided me. When I would look at photos of The Lox and DMX and even Common when he was Common Sense and shit, I just realized that they made me feel comfortable. They made me feel at home. So even I lived in Wicker Park for a year, that was the worst year I had ever because I hated living in Wicker Park. But I also was looking at-
[00:46:39.130] - Caullen
Give folks a vibe of Wicker Park.
[00:46:40.590] - ThoughtPoet
Wicker Park smells like white people.
[00:46:43.290] - Caullen
It smells like white people. It's like a Tales from the Hood type thing.
[00:46:47.760] - ThoughtPoet
I used to work at the Field Museum. I used to... Shout out to Jacob. I used to work at the Field Museum, and I used to work for Public Allies so I got to live in Wicker Park for a little bit. I thought I was going to love it because, again, I went to Harlan on 95th and Michigan. If you know your CPS schools, Harlan wasn't the best, but it wasn't the worst. So when I would go to Wicker Park for Young Chicago Author open mics, it was always a culture shock because I was like, Oh, my God. It was like a whole new universe. At the time, I felt like this is cool, it's like stores and everything. I could walk around and shit.
[00:47:27.980] - David
White people piercing and tattoos..
[00:47:29.140] - ThoughtPoet
You know what I'm saying? I was like, This is amazing. You feel me? I forgot what that shit is... I forgot...
[00:47:37.180] - Caullen
You said "there's stores".
[00:47:38.430] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah!
[00:47:38.430] - Caullen
That matters, though! I laughed because it was hilarious. But it's like, think about where you're coming from and where you're going to and being like, there are stores that are open.
[00:47:45.500] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
[00:47:46.280] - Caullen
There's people shopping. And that's not normally in our community.
[00:47:49.450] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah. So it was just like, for me, when I lived in Wicker Park, I thought I was going to love it. And I actually hated it because 1) I couldn't- I used to smoke squares heavy. I couldn't buy any loosies.
[00:48:05.140] - Caullen
What is a loosey?
[00:48:06.590] - ThoughtPoet
That is a loose square. So it's a loose cigarette.
[00:48:08.560] - David
No no, we know. He's just being dumb.
[00:48:09.720] - ThoughtPoet
The Dave Chappelle show. But yeah, I lived right next to a Mariano's, and I was broke most of the time, so I couldn't actually buy groceries. But a McDonald's was there, so I managed to always buy something from there. It was just terrible. And then the worst part was every time I rode the bus to get to the Field Museum, I had to ride a bus going west. Every morning, it was bombarded with white people. And the smell...
[00:48:38.440] - Caullen
Give us... What kind of white people?
[00:48:40.230] - ThoughtPoet
It was like, bro, it was like hipster/ I'm a manager at Trader Joe's/ I'm about to go buy the newest pair of yoga pants. That was very stereotypical, fuck it.
[00:48:55.850] - Caullen
No, that was a type of white person. That's why I asked. I was being funny, but also, it matters.
[00:49:00.500] - David
They were on the bus. They're on the bus, too, so also think about who rides the bus from Wicker Park, cause a lot of them motherfuckers don't.
[00:49:04.350] - ThoughtPoet
It made me feel alone. It made me really feel like I didn't have any support for real. And so when I moved back to the South Side, I moved to Englewood, it just felt like home. And I mean, again, it's crazy because, again, I'm born and raised from Chicago, but I felt comfortable. I felt safe. And I know people will always be like, Oh, when I go past a store, I see a bunch of guys there. It's like, I get paranoid. That shit, I never understood that guy. For me, I felt safe. You know what I'm saying?
[00:49:41.930] - Caullen
If you didn't see the guys, you'd be like, Oh, damn.
[00:49:43.800] - ThoughtPoet
I mean, that's how I felt.
[00:49:44.980] - Caullen
Where are the guys? "Uh, manager, the guys, where are the guys?"
[00:49:50.640] - ThoughtPoet
So it was like that. That was the type of energy that when I moved back out south, when I started doing my photography for real for real, I really wanted to paint that picture. And so I think what really brought that out for real was when COVID started. And everyone was locked up in their houses and stuff. And the hood was still the hood. So the corner stores were still running like they normally do. The gas stations that were surrounded by food deserts, they were still running mostly. I would just take my camera and shoot. And the people were so- It was almost surreal how friendly the folks on the block were. And it was only because everybody was confused, but everybody was like, We do this every day. We don't have the resources we need every day. So it was like, the stuff we eat, that was in the corner store. It was like, Yeah, been there for a minute and everybody was like, Okay, we just finna work with what we got. It was almost like- I can't even think of the era, but when folks would just gather and tell stories and just be-
[00:51:05.790] - Caullen
It was always, brother.
[00:51:06.630] - David
Yeah.
[00:51:06.900] - Caullen
It was always!
[00:51:07.920] - ThoughtPoet
It just gave that energy. And so, I think as I kept going into 2020 and then forward, I just really wanted to make sure I kept telling things from my lens. I really wanted to be unapologetic about it. So it's like, when I did photo series like "Sad Boy Energy" for Chicago Reader, "Testimonies from the Land" for Englewood Art Collective and Chicago DCase. The goal was really to just show an Afro-futuristic persona of what living in the hood would look like. And I think, what I think of the word "hood empathic", it's really understanding and just having a love for the environment. White people or anthropologists may call it urban areas, but it's the land. It's a space where you can kick it with your grandad. You may have got your first kiss on the block or some shit. Your first fight. It brings back a certain type of nostalgia that- you don't even got to be from Chicago, but if you've lived in the slums or the trenches, you just have an appreciation for it. And of course, we all want it to get better. We always want the hood to get better. But it's appreciating it for what it is in this moment is just as important.
[00:52:35.660] - David
I love it. Thank you for that community definition.
[00:52:39.880] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah, I feel like that was it.
[00:52:41.890] - David
You heard it here first. Caullen did mention the One Million Experiments project. I know with some of the things that you've been naming, those are some of the things we're looking for, right? Because here we are creating a project, a visual representation of a world without police. Here we are looking at the solutions to redistribution of wealth, and what that can actually look like. With it being today, I think we're very inspired by some of the shit that you were being able to produce after that 2020 run. Curious, Caullen- or Thought- your thoughts on that type of a project and how that's leading us to what you're referring to as that new wave.
[00:53:23.690] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah, I think y'all may have highlighted this quote that Damon Williams said a while ago about how the police is basically a bunch of jobs punched into one. That's really what it is, you feel me? Because I can completely believe that there can be a service that is created for domestic abuse events. Or drug overdose. Or if someone's having a mental episode in public, there's services for that. When it comes to even crazy shit, like drug trafficking or any of the shit that people will be like, Yo, call the police. It's like, actually, no, we can call 10 other places and 10 other things that can handle this situation.
[00:54:18.970] - Caullen
How do we even get here in the first place? That's where I always go to. Like, they don't go to traffic because they want to.
[00:54:23.600] - ThoughtPoet
And again, even trying to have those conversations on like, Oh, what is drug trafficking? Or what is Black-on-Black crime? Or what is Chicago gun violence? Or just all the things that people tend to bring up when people be like, Oh, police should be here because these things exist. It's like, Well, not really. We don't really need that shit. And I feel like that project, for me, it was like a no brainer. And I feel like since 2020, the Defund CPD campaign, I feel like they really... I feel like that was- even them existing was fun to watch because it pissed off so many white people. And it was only because they were afraid that their tax dollars were going to go to something that wasn't going to work.
[00:55:21.140] - Caullen
To food and housing. Noooo!
[00:55:21.790] - David
Medicare for all.
[00:55:24.420] - ThoughtPoet
They really wanted racist politicians to get their funds and shit. It's just funny that even having that conversation about what police have done and what they're capable of, it's almost funny that people are not comfortable having these conversations yet. I feel like maybe in the last three years, maybe that it's started to start being a conversation that we are talking about more frequently. But I feel that when we started this project, that was something I really wanted to just do, which was have my put on just what was happening. I feel like with the artists that we brought like, Freddie Old Soul, JazStarr, the amazing, amazing Black women- the other Black women that were part of it, like the mother of Pierre Loury. All of these folks that were a part of it, it really just reminded me just how, again, strong and visible this scene is.
[00:56:29.660] - ThoughPoet
And being able to tell that story and the people that were involved, like Senite, every single person that was involved in that production. I feel like it's not even- it's just begun. I feel like people have yet to really see that piece of film. I feel like even what I'm working on with you all, SoapBox, I feel like that's going to be a very dope follow-up to that conversation. And I feel like that's- the point is to continue having these conversations via creative lenses, via just different lenses, because we really need to have these conversations. Because, again, when we think about everything that's happening, even around the world right now, a lot of it is because we want to put so much emphasis and resources into police. And again, this was-
[00:57:24.670] - Caullen
Militarism and the planetary powers that are an extension of that.
[00:57:28.570] - ThoughtPoet
You have, again, countless, countless, countless people that need those resources. Even when it comes down to health care, when it comes down to just different things that people need so survival mode is not a normality. Again, when I even think about that question, it excites me. So it's like, being able to create something that people can watch over and over again and get either pissed off or inspired about, for me, I feel like I've done my job as a creative. And I want to keep doing it because I feel like in the next 2-3 more years, we're really going to be having more conversations about, yo, we're creating this service in replace of police. That's going to be so crazy because I'm going to be that person like, I remember when that was not a conversation.
[00:58:19.800] - Caullen
Y'all were not receptive of that. You did not invite me to the panel discussion.
[00:58:22.300] - David
Caullen, I'm curious to hear from you if you have any thoughts on the "1ME" project and bringing in Thought and anything.
[00:58:30.160] - Caullen
Yeah, I mean, all the thoughts. And I'll try to... hah, "All the... Thoughts."
[00:58:33.150] - David
He'll try to be succinct. We'll be here for 30 minutes...
[00:58:34.660] - Caullen
I will try to be. Yeah, for sure. I realized just as you were talking, this is the first time we've talked about it.
[00:58:44.470] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah!
[00:58:45.360] - Caullen
I'll give context for listeners, too.
[00:58:47.150] - David
We didn't have a debrief.
[00:58:48.420] - Caullen
Yeah. I'll give context for listeners, too. SoapBox, collaborated with Respair Productions & Media, started by the Airgo homie, shout out Daniel and Damon. They have a project with Interrupting Criminalization- Project NIA, one Million Experiments, a podcast, then they collaborated with us. They hollered at us to make a half hour experimental documentary about it. That's what we're talking about. If you're listening to this in 2023, probably haven't seen it yet unless you went to the premiere. But 2024 we should be having some more screenings for folks to see it. But it's a doc using some of the footage of organizations that Airgo interviewed about what the world looks like and can look like more without police, of very different groups of organizations. We used their footage, shot some stuff, we did a photoshoot that Thought and I creative directed, and made our own world within that shoot. That's much of the work we're talking about.
[00:59:41.350] - Caullen
But all the comments aside, hearing you talk about it, Thought, I'm like, Oh man, once we got the thing done, the next thing we talked about versus a debrief, which is like, Okay, how do we use parts of the thing we did to make a bigger thing? In a good way. Through your series you've already done some of the groundwork you already laid for years that I saw and we saw. And then knowing you saying, Oh, we want to blend Afrofuturism with African ancestral beings and energy. Like, I don't trust the person because I know how it fits into the broader thing of the entire project, but you've already been doing that and thinking about that. How can you even put that together?
[01:00:21.350] - ThoughtPoet
Shout out to you for even being able to peep that. Because that-
[01:00:24.870] - Caullen
Oh, whole time.
[01:00:25.640] - ThoughtPoet
And again, that style, Afrofuturism in itself is something I feel like people are still even starting to grasp. If you weren't-
[01:00:38.250] - David
It's the future, bro.
[01:00:39.320] - ThoughtPoet
You know what I mean? But even on some, Oh, if you didn't watch Black Panther, you have no idea what we may be talking about if you're not a comic book fan or some shit. But it's like, Afrofuturism, that's, again, when we think about what does the world look like without police, that is Afrofuturism. Because it's like, again, the hoods of Chicago, those are the ones... I mean, the history of Chicago police is deep and long. We can go to Freedom Square, we can go to Stop Shot Spotter. We can go to a lot of the campaigns that have been created to combat the idea of what police look like in Chicago. In real time, if you think about spaces like the Gold Coast or Andersonville or any of these up-north spaces-
[01:01:24.080] - Caullen
I do not think about the Gold Coast.
[01:01:26.000] - ThoughtPoet
But see, that's just it, right?
[01:01:29.230] - ThoughtPoet
But when people talk about, Oh, the youth are drag racing. Or, the youth are sticking people up. It's like, well, let's think about it: they broke as hell, most of the after-school programs, if there ever were any after a certain amount of time, don't exist. So when you think about what is a youth-. And then you got to think about it like, I come from an area where Evergreen Plaza and Forest City Mall was juking. That was your weekend. Going to the 87 Rink, going to the 87 Theater, going to Harold's on 87th. These were moves, you feel me? And a lot of the things that you could do as a teenager in Chicago does not exist anymore.
[01:02:10.290] - ThoughtPoet
So when people be like, Oh, you got 100 plus youth going up and down Michigan Avenue causing mayhem. It's like, well, they were trying to go to the Water Tower like they've been trying to for the past 5, 7 years. But you got security kicking their ass out. And calling them hooligans and saying they're stealing and they just trying to exist. When we talk about, again, a world without police, a city without police, it's like, those are the things that normally come next. That people be like, well because this is like this, this is why we need police. And it's like, no it's not. And I feel like, again, really this whole project is just, again, it's just the many, many conversation starters that I'm just excited to be a part of going into 2024.
[01:02:58.580] - David
No, fo sho. And all we're asking for y'all is just a little imagination. Not all of our listeners, but some of y'all. Just imagine a little bit more. Peep outside your own brains skull and see like, this is possible. That's really what it is, though. Because I've had a conversation with my dad. We've brought my dad up multiple times on this show.
[01:03:16.210] - Caullen
Ain't no "we," you brought your dad up.
[01:03:17.800] - David
Me, my dad.
[01:03:18.490] - Caullen
Alfonzo, you're a saint, you can do no wrong. I love you. *laughing * Te amo.
[01:03:22.090] - David
It starts with our people. It starts with our own and having those types of conversations. And I think the films, because Caullen don't call it content, the films and the work.
[01:03:36.889] - Caullen
It matters.
[01:03:36.970] - David
No, it's a whole thing.
[01:03:39.260] - ThoughtPoet
I respect that, though.
[01:03:42.060] - David
But to me, it's like content necessarily isn't a negative thing. It's still like- it's things we are creating. But that's another episode. I hear us.
[01:03:48.633] - Caullen
*laughing* 102.
[01:03:48.750] - David
The idea and the ability for us- like SoapBox has released, we were able to do the premiere of One Million Experiments at Bassline with Respair and the Airgo fellas. We've been able to do the No Cop Academy documentary.
[01:03:59.290] - ThoughtPoet
Speak on that, bro. It's all going crazy.
[01:04:02.160] - ThoughtPoet
But the way we're hearing... To me, the beauty of it is the responses that we're getting from our community members. Because we are something that we're with- we're not in this for the bag. In terms of like, our movies- we're not trying to do all that type of shit.
[01:04:15.730] - Caullen
Clearly, look at David's shoes.
[01:04:16.790] - David
I mean, these are my slippers from my office because I got an office in the Loop. So talk to me, dawg.
[01:04:21.570] - Caullen
This motherfucker, oh my God.
[01:04:23.220] - David
But I do think what's important is what you're talking about, Thought, is the way in which our work- the essence of our humanity is portrayed and developed into these pieces, these moments. Whether that's One Million Experiments, whether that's Seguimos, whether that's No Cop. I think in that, it's wonderful to be able to see the manifestation of that word. I don't know how many projects you've worked on, but for us, we've never incorporated photography to the level that we did with that type of project.
[01:04:57.940] - Caullen
That's facts. That's big facts.
[01:04:58.980] - David
I think that's also us developing and understanding what that being "multimedia" truly means. How we truly essence and bring stuff from all types of places that don't necessarily have to be a film camera.
[01:05:10.760] - ThoughtPoet
Even getting deeper, again, going to Freddie Old Soul and Jaz Starr, who are a rapper and a vocalist that are two of the leading artists that are leading this new wave in Chicago right now with their music. Even them being a part of the project, even the repurposed cop car. That is a fucking genius idea, from the style of it to the purpose of it, that is something that I can truly see happening.
[01:05:49.440] - ThoughtPoet
Even in the past year, I've had people that have really doubted what I do, and I've doubted the type of work that we do. And I've realized that people don't really believe in the work that we're doing. People really don't believe that you can advocate for your community and that will change something. People really don't believe that if a multitude of people come out and talk about the same thing that the government can actually be shut down or that we can actually call out the fucked shit. It's like, this whole creative process, seeing that film and seeing how the photos coincide. And just, again, looking at the faces. Once again, Senite is a younger face on this Chicago scene, but I dare say she's one of the most talented artists that are really paving away right now for folks. And it's realizing just how interwoven all of these things are. So it's like, when I looked at my work and realized how there are going to be people that are looking at this film and be like, Yo, that's shot by ThoughtPoet. That SoapBox chair, I've seen that in different places. We really are creating the structure for what's happening in this city right now.
[01:07:15.670] - ThoughtPoet
I think for me, that's something, again, I don't take lightly. Because the fact that, again, you were able to peep, Caullen, my ability to fuse hood empathic Afrofuturistic concepts into photography, a lot of people aren't looking for that. A lot of people are looking for other types of things, which is fine. But it's made me understand that what we're doing is so fucking bigger than ourselves. And of course, we're organizing for the people, but this is something where it's like, again, when we talk about Chicago's different eras, we're just here for a minute in time. But when we talk about it, we can really say that we've really helped push the envelope on, Yo, I care about you. I hope that you're okay. I want you to be better. I want you to win, even if I'm not in your fucking vicinity.
[01:08:11.140] - Caullen
Yeah.. Yeah. Wooo. I think about all of that in the moment of when we were shooting with the repurposed cop car, which y'all hopefully see more of. But even in the moment, we have James, DP of the project- editor of the project, just put on so much work on that.
[01:08:28.317] - ThoughtPoet
Shout out, James.
[01:08:28.650] - Caullen
He's filming with a- we filmed with a film camera. Or not a film camera- a red, it's digital, but semantics. He's filming, and you're shooting, and I'm just doing whatever I can- making sure he gets his shot, but you get yours. Even before then, especially as someone who's been delving into documentary a lot the past 5, 10 years, but have done some scripted work and stuff, and wanting to get back to that and thinking through, Okay, I'm going to be rusty as hell when I do even a short scripted project. I need to get back in- my imagination back- to David's point. But seeing you… We had, obviously, a style guide, we kinda had ideas of what folks would represent and what folks would bring. But we didn't have a huge budget. We didn't buy a bunch of shit and have everyone styled beforehand and all that.
[01:09:14.430] - David
Or a lot of pre-pro.
[01:09:14.430] - Caullen
Yeah! We had a budget, shout out, but it wasn't... And so people brought stuff, including myself. We dressed folks up. Shout out Leah, who went crazy on the makeup. We worked with what we had, to your point of- I think you mentioned it before as far as COVID and folks surviving and just being like, This is what we got, we're making it work. So that's what we did. Even with the... We had some budget to make stuff happen, with that, then seeing you be like, alright, this person shows up they have X, Y, Z on. Change this, tweak this, do this. Here's the character you're portraying, give me that visually without even say anything. Then, to your point, the folks we had on there, seeing you direct folks, I was like, Oh, shit he's good. He doesn't miss, he's good. He's good at this. I see the photos and I know.. And as a person who makes art, I know there's so much behind that other than just the thing you see, especially with visual. But seeing the work before that and the antecedents before that, and then being part of some of that and seeing it manifest in real-time, I was like, Oh, this is.. okay yeah.. This is why we do this shit.
[01:10:20.470] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah, no, that was... I think that was, for me, the most fun part was because, again, my grandma, whose artist's name is called Phoenix Rising, she was a doll maker. So what she would do was, she would have conversations with her customers- and, again, she based her artwork off of an African principle, which is centered on being a storyteller. And so the storyteller would talk to the subject, and they would get clothing or jewelry or something that resembled that person that the person was talking about. And that person would create a character. And so seeing my grandma, again, build with people where her dolls or with people like Angela Bassett and Oprah and her art has been in like, DuSable Museum. Unconsciously, I was picking up on her ability to just help tell stories. And so ever since I've been a photographer, I think that's always been my... That gives me life, being able to create universes within our own. And so even with your character, Caullen, when we really were like, we had the V for Vendetta mask, and we had one of the COVID-19 visor things.
[01:11:38.060] - Caullen
It's a cute one. It's sexy.
[01:11:39.260] - ThoughtPoet
You had your grill, and we were really trying to create a character that was, if you would say, the new century's revolutionary. Or new century's abolitionist. So someone that has a COVID mask on, but they're with the shits. You shooting with the owner of Fortune House, them shots were-
[01:12:04.070] - Caullen
I didn't know that! I didn't know, buddy.
[01:12:06.050] - ThoughtPoet
Bro, I didn't even realize until that shoot that that was who he was. He already knew of who I was. But even more importantly, his brother is coming from Savemoney. Just knowing how much community means to him and his brother, that gave me so much inspiration to really create the-. Because the images of you and him are fucking insane.
[01:12:31.970] - Caullen
We look cool. We look cool.
[01:12:33.220] - ThoughtPoet
And again, you would have to really look at the photos and be like, What the fuck? What is going on? Because he looked like he some type of cool ass... I don't know....
[01:12:45.120] - Caullen
Mahershala Ali looking ass motherfucker.
[01:12:46.420] - ThoughtPoet
You know what I'm saying? You coming out, you know what I'm saying? Everybody's like, Oh, he got the Molotov? He got the cocktail? What's going on? It's like, Shit.
[01:12:55.310] - Caullen
He got the cocktail or the Henny, it could be either one. It could be either one.
[01:12:58.750] - ThoughtPoet
It was just like, that brings joy to me as far as creating something that, again, people... It's a portrait, it's a painting. People are going to take their own personas from that and I think that's what the whole project is about.
[01:13:14.340] - Caullen
Yeah, and I wanna push you, David, in a second, but I'm just- all the thoughts now! Because even that, and finding who we wanted to be the models for the project and stuff. We had the folks you mentioned who you know and, who also, you can't just find a body. You have to find someone who knows how to be in front of a camera and all that. That was a thing. And I remember even on a call, we were talking about who to get and stuff. And someone on the Airgo team was like, Hey, they don't have to be known type shit. That was also an agreement, too.
[01:13:41.460] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah yeah!
[01:13:41.460] - Caullen
But also, it's hearing you talk about it now, it wasn't necessarily folks who you'd recognize them in the film, we're not like that. But just they know how important community is, they know how important this project is, and you happen to know them through some music, "industry stuff." Sure, but it's deeper than that. I'm thinking about that for the first time in this conversation. Even tonight, having Makafui, shout out, founder of Fortune House, having him on and I didn't know who he was. How I knew him was because he allowed us to film in his home. Talking about community and providing.
[01:14:20.630] - Caullen
I was DMing folks past 10:30 at night being like, Hey, we're shooting tomorrow on the South Side. Here's the cross street, type shit. Shooting from here to here, we have $200. You know anybody? We'll get in early and art it up. It can be empty. We'll figure it out. It's like, we just need a spot. Then that came through with Makafui. Then also, he does his other work, and also he's a dope model. Also, I'm paired with him as someone who wants to be a better director and also be able to be directed. You said two lines and I was like, Oh, I know exactly the character you're talking about, that's all I need. Special moment, and I think it's a microcosm of everything we're talking about here as far as the lexicon and how everything meets in this nucleus that we're talking about.
[01:15:08.220] - David
Fo sho, fo sho, fo sho. I'm just sitting here continuing to connect dots, thinking about who was there that day. Shout out to Diana. People who are not models and things of that nature.
[01:15:21.810] - Caullen
Did her fucking thang. Did her thang out here. Shout out to B'nB alum as well. She's been on the podcast before, that's how we knew her originally. She came through.
[01:15:30.860] - Caullen
And talking to David, too, we were talking about models and stuff- I was like, alright, there's a lot of youth energy- we want that for, hopefully, obvious reasons, but also ancestral past, futurism. Where are the folks who are older than us? Where are our elders we're learning from? And challenging at the same time, they're doing the same to us. I think it's always spoken of elders teach you. It's like, they do, but also we teach them back type thing. You mentioned Black Panther earlier. Y'all seen the first one, the whole lesson, everything, and they help the global Black folks, not just us.
[01:15:59.510] - Caullen
Anyway, I'm getting far from the point. But it was important to have a lexicon- a longitude of ages represented in there. And then, speaking of the community, I hit up Kofi Ademola, formerly of Black Lives Matter, who co-founded GoodKids MadCity, I believe, in Chicago. Talking about organizing your movement head, listen to the Chi DNA episode, several episodes back. We'll link it. He talks about his whole trajectory, which honestly, now that I'm saying it, it reminds me a lot of you. But that's a part two.
[01:16:25.860] - ThoughtPoet
That's big bro.
[01:16:26.520] - Caullen
That's a part two.
[01:16:27.140] - David
Kofi and Thought.
[01:16:27.140] - Caullen
We're texting folks, needing to find a house for a day to shoot. I feel like it's a low ask, and that's how the independent film orgs ask people last minute and someone slides up. And no one was hitting us. Then I was like, Hey also, we need some models, hopefully older models. We hit up Kofi. Kofi was like, pow, pow, pow. We knew Diana, but Arewa, a couple of others, too. I'm sorry I'm forgetting their names currently. But Arewa's- her nephew, Pierre Loury, was killed by police. Not only did this fit- and it feels weird to say it retrospectively, but the ages and races that we wanted for this shoot. Obviously, I think there was much more rooted reasons we wanted older Black women in this shoot about abolition than anyone else. It's not like a normal target shoot, whatever. But anyway, I think it matters more for us. But we want certain folks to look, who know how to be in front of a camera. And that was the floor.
[01:17:25.970] - Caullen
But then Kofi comes through saying, Hey, I know this person's family member who they love dearly was taken away by the state. And it's like, Oh, that's what this project is about. And that's just another Easter egg in this. If you're conceptualizing all that, or at least guessing about the images we stick together, then it hits deeper and it means more. That comes with the behind-the-scenes stuff as far as who's behind the scenes. I think a lot, now, in mainstream media world it's like, Black, Brown, and queer voices in front of the camera, which is great, but then also behind the camera, which is great. Then there's that next tier of do our politics and experiences align? That's where it's everything.
[01:18:06.120] - Caullen
I don't want Clarence Thomas as my AC, that doesn't help me. But if it's someone with experience in politics and also a Black man or Black woman, or someone who's underrepresented and actually spearheads the imagination we have to have to live differently and not just settle on the normalcy that is settler colonialism and white supremacy, it means more. I think all that at once, and we have that, and that wasn't even the... We were thinking about it, but when you're busy and stressed, you just figure it out and try to get what's done. But that was also already in the community, folks we knew. And folks they knew. Which is... Wild.
[01:18:43.180] - ThoughtPoet
I think that was something that- even when I think about the premiere. And I think about my experiences with Black Youth Project 100 and how I had to leave because I didn't feel like I was being cared for. It really made me understand that what we were creating is for folks that, again, have gone through these many experiences. Malik Alim, Rest in Power, I feel like he really taught me how to be a Black, cis, hetero man in a community where I didn't feel like I belonged. I feel like, with everything that I've experienced, with everything that we experience, putting this project together, the youth is, again, what constantly reminded me that this is why we do this. They really need to know what's happened, what's taken place before.
[01:19:43.540] - ThoughtPoet
Even when I think about the work that Malik did, and again, he was just being himself. I always felt that I was the smallest in the room when it came to being in organizing spaces, just because I didn't think that at the time I could contribute much. And because of his work, he really made me understand that, again, you- just be you. Just do you. And I think that helped me tremendously. Again, just thinking about him- especially. And I didn't even know that he was going to be uplifted in the film like he was, honestly. I mean, clearly we were building in The Breathing Room, but I wasn't counting on that. And so for me, it just made me feel closer to him. Because I know that this is the type of work that he was excited about, which was podcasting and creating spaces to really talk about these things that go on in the scene. And how, again, it's so connected to the point where if you don't see it, you just don't want to. You know what I mean?
[01:20:56.720] - Caullen
Oohhh yeah. If you're even halfway engaged, it's going to be around you in your orbit somehow.
[01:21:01.480] - ThoughtPoet
We're doing positive shit. It'd be a different thing if we were stealing from people or some shit, I don't know. I just really think about the fact that we really are trying to make a difference. When like you said, you just had gotten out of grad school. I'm sure you had your own thing with education before you decided to be a part of community. And it's like, y'all could be doing anything else, but y'all decided to be a champion for the people. It's understanding what that means. And understanding what type of selflessness comes with that. And understanding what type of heart you have to have to even want to be a part of this work. I think that's the biggest thing about this type of work is that you have to really know yourself. I feel like that's something that, even now, I'm still really tapping into.
[01:21:57.520] - ThoughtPoet
But yeah, I feel like this project, when it comes to creating your own voice, and advocating for something that you believe in and people around you may really not believe in what you're talking about.
[01:22:13.420] - Caullen
[inaudible 01:22:13]
[01:22:14.120] - ThoughtPoet
You know what I mean? There are Black people that really do believe that police should be around. And it's just like, let's have that conversation. And that's the energy I get from what we've built, because it's going to be so important moving forward.
[01:22:33.500] - David
And on that, moving forward, what are some of the things that people can look out for regarding ThoughtPoet or anything ThoughtPoet doing for 2024?
[01:22:41.400] - ThoughtPoet
Word! 2024?
[01:22:44.870] - Caullen
[deep voice] 2024.
[01:22:47.200] - ThoughtPoet
Damn.
[01:22:47.670] - Caullen
[deep voice] Next year. ThoughtPoet.
[01:22:50.320] - ThoughtPoet
Definitely have a lot of musical projects coming out from a lot of amazing folks. We're going to be doing another Unsocial Aesthetics event where we're uplifting artists that we believe in. We're going to be doing work centering around, again, acknowledging those problematic things. We're going to be also working on a lot of things with our INTH3LAND an Englewood Open Mic series. But yeah, I think the biggest thing to look out for is just a lot more bodies of work that center around uplifting Black Chicago in the scene. And it's coming from Unsocial Aesthetics.
[01:23:35.300] - Caullen
Why "Unsocial"?
[01:23:37.130] - ThoughtPoet
I'm so glad you asked that!
[01:23:38.670] - Caullen
Oh, this mother fucker planned it! You're going to hear the marketing team branded reasoning.
[01:23:43.450] - ThoughtPoet
The story behind Unsocial Aesthetics.
[01:23:44.670] - Caullen
Here we go. Here we go.
[01:23:45.320] - ThoughtPoet
So Unsocial Aesthetics was a rebrand from the website, The Lyrical Lab, which uplifted artists like Lucky X, Chance the Rapper, Tink, Dreezy, Femdot, Septoba Beats.
[01:23:55.890] - Caullen
C Huddy Huddy.
[01:23:57.160] - ThoughtPoet
I could go on. Unsocial Aesthetics, the name came from, again, looking at people that have been a part of the scene that, again, contribute so much to the creative aspect, the organizing aspect. And they don't ask for the interviews. They're not begging for the clout. They're not necessarily looking to get the limelight. However, their works and contributions are really changing the narrative of Chicago and is really feeding into the new infrastructure that's being built. And so our job is really to help artists when it comes to learning different things of artist development, learning how to shoot your video, learning how to shoot your content for your project, helping you with your musical project. But more importantly, we're telling the stories of Black Chicago. We're having these conversations about the scene and just the many things that have made it be what it is right now and the future.
[01:25:03.890] - ThoughtPoet
And so we've been online since the beginning of 2023. We've had some pretty dope things like Jaz Starr opened up for Slum Village earlier this year. We just called out Porkchop, which is a racist performance venue that we just called out today.
[01:25:25.840] - Caullen
As a company, you're like, Hey, y'all, by the way, fuck Porkchop?
[01:25:29.290] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah, pretty much. We pretty much posted some shit saying, Porkchop is racist, and that's about it. *laughing*
[01:25:36.900] - David
You heard it here.
[01:25:38.780] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah. I mean, yes, please do not fuck with Porkchop. Porkchop is racist as fuck.
[01:25:44.860] - Caullen
We'll... okay. I have so many questions.
[01:25:47.520] - ThoughtPoet
We would be here forever. I'm here for it, though. But no, bottom line, our creative agency is just really putting more morals and values into the work that we say that we're passionate about.
[01:26:01.280] - David
Yeah, that's what's up. We appreciate that. Thank you, ThoughtPoet, again for hanging out with us.
[01:26:06.590] - ThoughtPoet
Thank you. Thank you for having me, man.
[01:26:08.030] - David
Clearly, we won't bring you back because there's clearly plenty of things to talk about.
[01:26:11.410] - Caullen
We should just called the episode, it's a one-on-one, name names.
[01:26:15.180] - ThoughtPoet
I'm here for it. I'm an open book, you know what I'm saying? So let's do it. I'm here for it.
[01:26:21.180] - David
No, but thank you, Thought, so much for hanging with us.
[01:26:23.010] - ThoughtPoet
Thank y'all.
[01:26:23.120] - David
As always, we're going to continue building and growing. So there'll be plenty of other things you'll see between the recording of this episode, the release of this episode, and then next year. So stay tuned. As always, I'm about to do Caullen's lines. *laughing*
[01:26:36.400] - Caullen
I was like, he's about to say my line!
[01:26:38.720] - David
This is Four Roses out here is...
[01:26:40.080] - Caullen
Stealing Black characters. Stealing Black voices.
[01:26:42.370] - David
I love that.
[01:26:42.820] - Caullen
That's fucked up, David.
[01:26:43.570] - David
Noo, I don't love that.
[01:26:44.230] - Caullen
That's fucked up, David. It's almost my birthday soon, too. Man...
[01:26:47.300] - David
That's it. You know. Man.....
[01:26:50.190] - ThoughtPoet
Yeah, Scorpio season, shit.
[01:26:52.030] - David
Y'all hilarious. But thank you, Thought. Again, thank you to all of our listeners. Please, as always, check out all the episode notes for all the information that you're looking for that you've been listening to this podcast episode. It will be on there, I promise you. And as always, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.
[01:27:07.380] - Caullen
Stay tuned, stay turnt.
[01:27:08.400] - David
And we'll see you for the next one. Deuces!
[01:27:10.930] - Caullen
Peace!
OUTRO
Song Smoke Anthem by Stock Marley.