Bourbon 'n BrownTown

Ep. 100 - It's a BnB Celebration! ft. Samantha Grund-Wickramasekera & Camille Williams

Episode Summary

BrownTown on BrownTown. Join Caullen and David as they celebrate BnB's 100th episode with guest hosts and homies Samantha Grund-Wickramasekera and Camille Williams. Sam is a long-time listener and SoapBox board member while Camille was one of the first podcast guests. As collaborators and friends of BrownTown, they have seen the podcast and SoapBox as a whole grow over the years and detail that as they lead a reflection on where the podcast has been, where it is, and where it's going. Here's to 100 more!

Episode Notes

Transcriptions available here!

GUESTS
Samantha Grund-Wickramasekera is a proud Chicago native and Chicago Public School graduate who grew up in West Rogers Park. She graduated summa cum laude from DePaul University with a double major in political science and women and gender studies, with a minor in LGBTQ studies. Samantha became a Double Demon when she attended DePaul’s College of Law and graduated with a Juris Doctor and a Healthcare Law certificate in 2017. Since then, she has served as the senior judicial law clerk to the Honorable Franklin U. Valderrama in the Circuit Court of Cook County and as an Assistant Attorney General for the State of Illinois. Currently, she serves as an appellate judicial law clerk to the Honorable Cynthia Y. Cobbs in the Illinois Appellate Court, First District, where she reviews and decides state-based criminal and civil appeals. She also serves as an adjunct professor at DePaul’s College of Law, focusing on appellate advocacy. Samantha has served as a board member on Soapbox’s Board of Directors since 2020 and has authored various editorials for the organization. Finally, Samantha is the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors and the daughter of a Sri Lankan immigrant. She is proudly brown, Jewish and intersectional, loves lifting weights and playing soccer, will judge a restaurant entirely on the quality of its French fries, and is the mother of the best doggo in the world, Hallo Mahalo.

Camille Williams is a South Side resident, a community member whose foundation is built on advocacy. Camille is currently studying Health Science at Rush University and is the Inclusion, Diversity, Equity and Accessibility Lead at Chicago Votes.

Mentioned Episodes:

Opinions on this episode only reflect Samantha, Camille, David, and Caullen as individuals, not their organizations or places of work.

CREDITS: Intro music Celebration by Kool & The Gang and outro instrumental Weakest Link by Woozy & GENTA. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles. Episode photo by Aidan Kranz. Testimonials in order: Genta Tamashiro, Dakota Sillyman, Emma Terrazas, and Ernest Hudson. Listen to all the episodes on your chosen podcast application and SoapBoxPO.com/Podcast for more information.

Episode Transcription

Ep. 100 - It's a BnB Celebration! ft. Samantha Grund-Wickramasekera & Camille Williams

INTRO

Intro music Celebration by Kool & The Gang

BODY OF EPISODE

[00:01:12.820] - Samantha

I want to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. And things probably sound a little different right now. You probably don't know who I am or who my co-host is, if you want to say hi.

[00:01:25.170] - Camille

Hi, everybody.

[00:01:26.860] - Samantha

I am Samantha Grund-Wickramasekera, and I've been a listener of Bourbon 'n BrownTown probably since 2018. We were talking about Caullen booking middays for fitness, and that's how I found him, basically. He was just jumping around at the gym that we shared. And he was always blasting SoapBox on his socials, so found a way to connect with him and started getting involved with the organization. And we can talk more about that later.

[00:01:58.830] - Camille

My name is Camille Williams. I'm your favorite SouthSide shorty. And I met Caullen in the Chicago Votes office, probably like 2017? And where I was later introduced to David, and I've been SoapBoxing on my SoapBox since then. So thank you all for having this platform and inviting us today.

[00:02:20.430] - Samantha

Yeah, so we're actually going to be the co-hosts for today's episode because we're celebrating a very important milestone for the organization, specifically for their podcast, Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It is the 100th episode!

[00:02:37.210]

[air horns]

[00:02:39.970] - Samantha

So it's a very special episode that we were very happy to co-host. To help our friends kind of look back and reflect on the last hundred episodes. The last few years of Bourbon 'n BrownTown, SoapBox in general. And we also have on this episode some special little vignettes and little stories from people who have been involved in the organization over the last few years, just giving them their favorite memories, their favorite times with Caullen and David. So we're very much looking forward to hearing all the stories from our guys themselves, but also from people who have been with the organization at all points of time.

[00:03:19.790] - Camille

And if you're new here, do your research on Caullen and David and SoapBox and Bourbon 'n BrownTown and Harambe Studios. Rest in peace, Harambe.

[00:03:31.210] - Samantha

But if you haven't done your research, we have a little bit of some bios for our two guys as well, too. And, you know, we asked them to kind of give a little bit of their own spiel about themselves to sell themselves as best as they could. So looks like Caullen's is very existential, as usual. And David a little bit more direct of what he's doing. But we'll talk about all that stuff along the way, too.

[00:03:55.610] - Samantha

I'm just going to read you a little bit about Caullen. So he's a Chicago-based filmmaker, activist, and fitness professional who creates with his nonprofit SoapBox Productions and Organizing. And he founded the organization after earning a Bachelor's in Digital Cinema at DePaul University, my alma mater as well, too. It's actually where I saw him jumping around in our gym over there. Came back in 2017 to get his masters in sociology in order to explore the issues that were concerning the city and on the national scale through social research and creative pathways. And now he's got about a decade of film, commercial, and television and Internet experience, in addition to years of community-based organizing work and all of the projects that SoapBox has worked on and continues to work on for the future.

[00:04:46.820] - Samantha

So Caullen, specifically, directs, he produces, he educates, he organizes, and he acts to bring about participatory, authentic structures and alliances to transform narratives, abolish oppressive systems, and build towards a more liberatory future. Caullen aims to center, explore and amplify issues of inequity and challenge them with intentionality, creativity and radical imagination. When not creating films or building power with grassroots organizing campaigns, he can be found recording this very podcast now in SoapBox's new, brand new studio, where we're hosting this podcast and where all the brains and operations happen, now in our own little space. He also teaches fitness classes, or he'll be sipping on a fine whiskey somewhere. I always like when you, on your social media, when you're watching some kind of movie and you're kind of commenting.

[00:05:43.120] - Caullen

Ohh, yeah. Highlights, son. Peeping highlights.

[00:05:44.290] - Samantha

Yeah, it's always some ultra war movie, usually with like bombs and stuff, which I find like really funny considering how you feel about all that, too. But the commenting, that was really funny. I look forward to those little stories whenever they pop up. But yeah, like I mentioned, very existential in your biography. So we'll get into more of the nitty gritty about what the podcast actually has been working on over the last few years. But I'll turn it back over to Camille then to introduce David.

[00:06:14.390] - Camille

David Alfonso Moran is a first generation Chicano, made in Mexico and shipped across the border. Second born in Chicago during the 90s to an overly religious, undocumented couple. David uses his experiences and education as a writer, producer, and agitator to name, resist, and challenge oppressive paradigms, institutions, and ideologies. Following religious differences, David left his home at 19, started working as a line cook, and is a first generation graduate from Columbia College.

[00:06:49.380] - Camille

Finding his roots with SoapBox as its very own Multimedia Director and Producer, establishing SoapBox as a 501c3 and co-creating Bourbon 'n BrownTown, David has since been directing and producing award winning films, organizing and developing multimedia projects, and engaging in and around the nonprofit industrial complex. In his spare time, David works with Modified Mixology, a multi-city Black and Brown led mobile bartending company. And I'm so excited to be here with him, with y'all. Let's do this.

[00:07:26.110] - Samantha

David made us some great drinks for today, too, right? We're starting off with that. Thank you for that.

[00:07:31.810] - Camille

Yeah, these drinks are fire.

[00:07:33.830] - David

For sure. We had to celebrate. And it's fun because, I mean, we usually like- for our listeners, I didn't start loving bourbon. That was not a drink of choice.

[00:07:44.210] - Camille

What?

[00:07:44.830] - David

Yeah, I was not a huge fan.

[00:07:45.790] - Caullen

He did it for the alliteration.

[00:07:47.510] - David

And also, like, I don't know.. It was kind of like a bonding thing with Caullen. I appreciate alcohol; he liked bourbon, specifically. I'm like, alright cool, my guy likes to drink bourbon, let's drink bourbon now.

[00:07:57.990] - Samantha

What was the podcast, like, an alternative name? What might it have been if you hadn't liked bourbon eventually?

[00:08:06.100] - Caullen

Well, I think, I would argue that BrownTown predated even, like, us drinking and talking.

[00:08:11.080] - David

This is true.

[00:08:11.760] - Caullen

In a way. We live with our homie Nabil, shout out, who's actually a B'nB alum. Nabil's Pakistani. I'm Black. David's Chicano. So we're all different types of Black and Browns, right? And then I liked bourbon, so we were- that kind of synergized into what the podcast could be. And we would have conversations as- maybe even before... Maybe even before David hopped on soapBox just about politics and Trump was on his rise. And thinking about what that actually means and how it's a symptom of a larger shift in the country and the globe with white supremacy and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so we'd have those conversations at our home, at BrownTown. Even before we lived with Nabil, really. Then we lived with Nabil, and then we would have those conversations more so. And then David was involved in SoapBox, we're like, hey, this is another outlet.

[00:09:05.140] - Caullen

And I had thought about it before, but not really. Then he brings a different energy and different skill set, right. And so that was fun to blend those skills together and be like, all right, how do we do this? One- because neither of us thought we'd have a podcast. Especially a podcast as part of a bigger thing that we know we were gonna do. Then also to be like, all right, I don't really know audio stuff. Hey, what's our boy Genta doing? And him kind of shepherding that as far as the technical aspect of it. And learning through him as far as how that works and stuff, too. Cause folks were like, I wanna know about starting a podcast. I'm like, I can talk about branding and structuring conversation, not about the audio side, talk to Genta. And so that was kind of how... At least the name kind of came to be, a little bit. Then Harambe comes in.

[00:09:47.720]

[musical break]

[00:09:50.700] - Genta

Hey, everyone, this is Genta. I'm the former audio engineer for the Bourbon 'n BrownTown podcast. I just wanted to pop in here and say congratulations on a hundred episodes. That is mind blowing to me. I can't believe how far this podcast has progressed in the last few years, or just in general, from the beginning. I met David in college, at Columbia College. I was doing audio engineering, and we were hanging out a lot. And I found out about his roommate, who had this project going called SoapBox. Which, admittedly, I didn't really know what that was at the time. But eventually, David and Caullen approached me with this idea that they wanted to start a podcast. And they wanted to call it Bourbon 'n BrownTown. Basically, they would drink a little bourbon and talk about these issues and topics that were really important to them. And so I was like, fuck yeah, man. Drinking some bourbon and just talking about some real shit, let's do it. Armed with just a computer and a single microphone, I think, we started the podcast on their living room table, and it kind of just went from there.

[00:10:57.410] - Genta

Eventually, we "upgraded" to my bedroom studio, where we recorded many, many episodes in a hot, stuffy room. We had the AC off for better audio quality, and so it was kind of sweaty and musty. But we got it done, and it was a great time every time. It's like a little party with the homies every episode. I'm just saying all this really to highlight the progress that you guys have made with the podcast, and with SoapBox in general. It's really a different entity than I remember walking into all those years ago, and it's definitely changed for the better. Once again, congratulations. I love all you guys. I miss your smiling faces. I hope that I can see you all very soon.

[00:11:48.570] - David

Yeah, actually, have we ever talked about that on B'nB? Where Harambe come from?

[00:11:53.410] - Caullen

Probably at least once, but probably a minute ago.

[00:11:56.730] - David

I mean, so yeah, high story. I'm high as fuck, I'm at Jewel. And you know how they got those big ass stuffed animals sometimes on top of other stuff? And I was like, look, there's a big ass ape. I was with my friend Maddie. Maddie, she's been on the podcast too, shout out, Maddie. She's like, you should totally get it! I was like, it's $50 for a fucking ape. But we got it. And so I brought it home, and I remember everyone's initial reactions were like, the fuck? And I was like, look, it's... it's cute. I scared the fuck out of- because I would leave Harambe sitting, like, when you'd open the door. And so- or every now and again, I'd put him on the window.

[00:12:34.640] - Caullen

Oh yeah!! I remember that! That was creepy as hell!

[00:12:39.820] - David

Yeah, cause he was- I was by the living room. Always been by the living room. So I'd put Harambe in specific places.

[00:12:47.460] - Caullen

It's like Child's Play. It's like, Chucky. Y'all seen Chucky? It's Halloween, shout out. Y'all seen Chucky?

[00:12:51.750] - Samantha

I refuse to.

[00:12:54.860] - Caullen

Any kind of doll movie like that. As it builds before the big reveal that all, like, revealing itself to someone, of an audience, or the kid or whatever, the young person. The second reveals that that person, they see it in a different spot like, oh my god. Oh, wait, the child must have misplaced the doll. But the doll really moved around. That's what it felt like, type shit. And I do want to issue a correction for the folks out there that study animals, I don't know, Harambe is a Western Gorilla.

[00:13:20.790] - Samantha

Yes.

[00:13:22.030] - Caullen

I had to google it just to make sure. He's a Western Gorilla. Which now I'm thinking about more so about all the....

[00:13:27.790] - David

I'm curious how he was marketed. Because we still have Harambe, that's the beauty of it. It's like-

[00:13:31.640] - Caullen

Or does he still have us?

[00:13:33.550] - David

He currently lives and resides in the front part of the SoapBox office. You've seen him on t-shirts, so definitely check that out.

[00:13:42.190] - Samantha

Check out our merch.

[00:13:43.050] - David

We'll have new shit.

[00:13:44.280] - Caullen

soapboxpo.com/support.

[00:13:45.960] - Samantha

Yep.

[00:13:46.380] - Caullen

Oh, I'm sorry. Well, I mean, there, too, if you want to donate.

[00:13:48.660] - David

He's supposed to be a guest and he's already plugging.

[00:13:51.000] - Samantha

I wouldn't expect anything different.

[00:13:53.100] - Caullen

Guests promote their stuff.

[00:13:56.400] - Samantha

Well, I do want to dig at you guys were talking about all the conversations you had at the beginning. I don't know if I personally know how you guys even came to meet and even create a space for you guys to even have these ideas. So I do want to dig into that, but I also wanted to pull back a little bit, too. You said it's Halloween. I think it's important that everyone knows what our costumes are today. Especially you. You've been hyping yourself up all day, so tell the people what you're wearing.

[00:14:26.160] - Caullen

These are lies. Yeah, it's on brand, but lies for today.

[00:14:29.160] - Samantha

Yeah.

[00:14:30.020]

[50 Cent "In Da Club"]

[00:14:34.150] - Caullen

That's y'all's hint, okay. It's mainly out of practicality. I'm in a cast right now, y'all. If you heard us in 2017, I probably was in the cast then as well. But so.

[00:14:47.200] - Samantha

Perpetually injured.

[00:14:48.580] - Caullen

Seriously. My workouts are limited, so I'll get a weighted vest so I can do more stuff and get a little something out of it. So, bought a weighted vest recently.

[00:14:56.170] - Samantha

How much weight is the weighted vest?

[00:14:59.028] - Caullen

It weighs 20 pounds. I literally have it on right now. It's extreme sitting.

[00:15:03.930] - Samantha

Extreme sitting.

[00:15:05.330] - Caullen

We're method, baby. Yeah, so I got the vest on, got some stars where 50 Cent is known to be shot nine times as part of his whole brand and stuff. And how he kind of came to prominence in the hip hop sphere in the early two thousands. Early aughts.

[00:15:18.900] - Samantha

Very nice.

[00:15:20.250] - Caullen

And put some cargo pants on and hat on that I borrowed from David. Thank you, David. Some cheap chains I have, and it's- we made it work. I appreciate the love I've gotten so far. Anyway, I mean, ping pong, popcorn, Sam tell me, what's your outfit?

[00:15:34.310] - Samantha

So I used to hate dressing up for Halloween. I don't know why. Maybe because it was always cold. It's cold today, it's snowing. Snowing on Halloween, climate change. So I always was wearing my old soccer uniforms as a costume just because it was easy to do. And you could wear your long socks and your track pants and be fine. But I've been recently persuaded to actually care about what I'm wearing on Halloween.

[00:16:00.060] - Samantha

Yes. Shout out to my partner, who is obsessed with Disney movies and all things plush. I'm holding a Stitch right now, my costume is Lilo and Stitch. So I'm dressed up like her. And he's not here with us. He has a full length Stitch costume. So he sent me his little sleep aid, I guess, as a replacement for him. So that's what I'm wearing. And quite comfy right now. Might get a little hot in here with the tights, though. Yeah. But my green parts of my costume look like they match with yours, David, so tell us.

[00:16:35.464] - Caullen

A segue way! This is your first time, and got a segue way! Let's go!

[00:16:35.770]

[laughing]

[00:16:39.970] - David

No, this is exciting. And so kind of the same vein, but I think for me, it's always like, if other people are doing something, it's easier for me to be convinced, you know? Because when Caullen I used to live together, we would get dressed up for New Year's or was like, oh, do I get dressed up? Yeah, fuck it. Let's do it. All right, cool. We play with it. But this year I'm dressed as the Riddler. So this exact same costume I wore- my partner's birthday was during the weekend.

[00:17:03.690] - Samantha

You guys won an award, didn't you?

[00:17:05.610] - David

Yeah, we won first place at Simone's. For context, she was Poison Ivy, and I was Riddler. So if y'all went to Simone's on the 28th, y'all probably seen me, I was the Riddler. Thank y'all for the shots. Naw naw, I do it for the community there. Because I've been there- it's been popping, it's always great time there. So shout out. But, yeah, I got the little cane and everything, a little purple. Purple, green and black, you know.

[00:17:25.890] - Samantha

I just want to point out he would not start recording until he had his cane. Because he left it outside.

[00:17:31.060]

[crosstalk 00:17:32]

[00:17:34.360] - David

The camera was snapping, I was like, I need it so they know what's up.

[00:17:35.900] - Samantha

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, it looks great. You guys look great next to each other. Someone was commenting that it looks like this is your everyday attire anyway, so.

[00:17:44.540] - Caullen

Name names!

[00:17:46.580] - Samantha

I don't remember. We got a whole host of people outside who are celebrating this episode with us because we're all very proud of you guys. So, Camille, you're wearing a costume too.

[00:17:56.810] - Camille

Yeah, I'm a skateboarder. So I got my oversized performance arts Joe Freshgoods on where they're shooting dice. That's why I wanted to be one of those skateboarders.

[00:18:09.380] - Samantha

How did you become involved with SoapBox over the years?

[00:18:13.580] - Camille

Again, like I said, I met Caullen at Chicago Votes. We got connected, and he was like, oh, you want to be on my podcast? And then it was just like, okay. And look at us now. 100 episodes in, which I'm very grateful for. That was interesting. I was at a different point in my life. I was fully a community organizer. Fast forward, now I'm reshifting my career path. Still an organizer, going into healthcare and just really happy to be a part of this platform that's still uplifting and building. Connecting with them then and then fast forward, meeting back up and they're like, oh, yeah, we 100 episodes in. You want to be the co-host? Uh, yeah. Also being office mates. Our offices was in the same space. So it's just also good for me to be like, you know, I remember when they started this and we was in someone's house. And now it's just like, no, they have an office. Oh, y'all legit.

[00:19:14.500] - Caullen

Like, a room dedicated to it. Yeah, it feels good. I mean, shout out to our HOME episode a couple episodes back. We talked about- David and I talked about just what home means in general. As far as us finding spaces in Chicago as young adults/ having the office/ the man-made issue we call homelessness and what that looks like and leaning into that a little bit with legislation in Chicago, what have you. So it was- I liked that episode a lot because it felt really personal, because it was. But also, we kind of got macro as well as far as not everyone has a home in the first place. Not everyone can reminisce like we are now, talking about what homes look like.

[00:19:49.240] - Caullen

I think Camille, too, it's like you- I don't want you to sell yourself short because you were in Chi DNA; Chicago Drill 'n Activism- my thesis project that I wrote about for grad school at DePaul. And then, we had micro docs that are on chidna.com. And it will be a feature doc featuring Tweak'G and some folks, too. So, even- we're literally working on a project now that you were in before a lot of the structures that SoapBox has now, or even here. So, you know, I just- but I appreciate your willingness to let me ask you a bunch of questions for an hour and a half about drill rap and activism. And in the podcast about me and David, that was super dope. And now we're here. So I just want to add that sauce and everything as far as our relationship and how the trajectory of it for so many years- for both you guys- so many years, it's been in different areas which we still traverse. ie: the gym, ie: Chicago Votes who's next door to us.

[00:20:42.100] - Caullen

And so it's interesting and it's cool that a lot of our relationships and spaces we traverse- the physical spaces- have transcended, they're different, but the meaning of them feels deeper. And only brought more people in.

[00:21:00.010] - Camille

Shout out to you for saying that. And I just want to commend you all, because I try to uplift the Black and Brown men that I know. That's why when y'all ask me do stuff, I say, yeah. Because it's like 1) I know y'all. And it's like, 2) yes, because I know... I see the bigger picture. I don't see where y'all going with it, but I know that it's a continuous building. And you guys are shaping the culture around podcasts and what that looks like for the city and the culture and for the people here who are doing the work. So thank you all for like- just keep going. Because- did I think back then we was gonna be 100 episodes in? Yes. Are we a hundred episodes in? Yes. And it's just like, I cannot wait to just, a live show again. We're folks are really like, "Bourbon 'n BrownTown!" Bad merch at the merch table. And just really excited because it's like, you guys are like, thank you. It's so happy. I'm so happy now, just sitting here being with y'all like, this is big. So shout out to y'all for just making space for not only yourself, but for people in Chicago as well.

[00:22:17.840] - Samantha

Yeah. On that point, I was just thinking about my relationship just with podcasts in general. Like, outside from you guys, too. And I remember when I was a kid, I think my grandfather had NPR on all the time. And I feel different about it now but I just remember-

[00:22:33.050]

[crosstalk 00:22:34]

[00:22:36.110] - Samantha

The smell of the car, the topics that I didn't know anything about, it would make me carsick all the time. So when I thought about podcasts, I was always thinking about the constant car sickness, the constant switching from topic to topic, my brain not fully understanding what we had just listened to. So when I thought about podcasts, I just thought of something boring, something that I couldn't connect with. So I will say, when I first started listening to you guys, I came a little skeptical, a little bit, just because of my past experience with it.

[00:23:07.340] - Caullen

We're like, cishet dudes with podcasts. I get it.

[00:23:10.040] - Samantha

But then you guys were featuring people that I otherwise would have never met, like, just in my spaces where I was in with my professional career, my academic career. So I was hearing about people that were in the city that maybe I never would have intersected with in life had I not been involved with you guys in that way.

[00:23:31.600] - David

What's the one that comes to your mind right now when you think of that? I'm curious.

[00:23:35.380] - Samantha

Honestly, Larone's episode, I think, too. Yeah, in the beginning. Not to get too personal, but I don't have the greatest relationship with my dad. So kind of hearing from his point of view of fatherhood and Black fatherhood and all those themes, that felt really good to hear. Especially when the narrative, I think you were kind of mentioning earlier about Black and Brown men in general, especially on those issues, is bad for the most part. How we portray Black and Brown men on issues of family and stuff like that. So hearing those things and hearing the vulnerability that came out in that podcast really resonated with me.

[00:24:15.920] - Samantha

And then, topics that I didn't really hear much about in mainstream podcasts for the most part. Because a lot of the really popular ones in the beginning were more focused on national politics. I think you kind of mentioned earlier about maybe Trump being the impetus for a lot of movements really picking up speed. Or at least getting more national attention on them. So maybe more the local issues, they were known by the communities that were directly in them. But maybe larger communities outside of it weren't hearing the stories that were coming out of there. So more personal really specific issues that you wouldn't hear on NPR necessarily I guess. That kind of got me more interested in listening to your podcast, for sure. And it's kept me on for 100 episodes.

[00:25:08.510] - David

I mean, that's always so exciting. Because I think- just to kind of bring it back to what we were talking about- I think our desks were also across from one another, you know what I'm saying? And I think I've always enjoyed conversation. Caullen has always been very intelligent and academically... he's a linguistic human. And so I'm just like- is that a word? But, so to me, it was always just exciting to talk to him. And sometimes, we- I think I can remember we were in our space and I was like, all right, let me just. We're drinking, I'm like, I'm just gonna press record and we'll do it and then we'll hear it back and if it's actually decent and whatever... So we did the whole thing, listened to it back and we're kind of like, this is kind of funny. There's certain moments, little things. There was really no flow to it. And then we made a comment on- what that was that white girl's name who said that-

[00:25:56.900] - Caullen

Tomi Lahren.

[00:25:57.942] - David

Tomi Lahren she said dumbass shit.

[00:25:58.320] - Caullen

She was a guest on Trevor Noah.

[00:26:01.300] - Samantha

Yeah.

[00:26:01.970] - David

And so then we did a little comment. So what I'm getting at is- I think with those beginnings, right? I didn't think we were gonna make it to 100 episodes. Not that I wouldn't want to low key. But there- we started this in 2017. We're 2023, and we hit 100. And there's been so many instances where it's like, we can't continue doing this because, you know; everyone's doing this at the beginning, for sure, from the goodness and the love of their heart. Paying their own gas.

[00:26:34.380] - David

And then we get to a point where we're at Cards Against Humanity, I think that's what was very exciting, kind of empowered us a little bit more. Started bringing in different types of guests. Because I do think you being one of those first guests I think it really helped Caullen and I start shaping the episodes with Charles. We had Larone on earlier, Maddie, some of those initial conversation things was the things you're talking about, Sam. In terms of, those were conversations that- they were national, right. Because I think our first or second was "Trump's 100 days". But that's also because we had just gone to fucking DC and saw his ass getting inaugurated. And was literally there getting phone calls from our parents, being like, yo, hey, are you okay? Like, wait, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, cause they're like, are you breaking into a bank? It's like, no, what the fuck are you talking about?

[00:27:18.420] - Caullen

I'm not gonna tell you over the phone, Mom. That's not how this works, they could be listening. We were there to document and be part of the protest against him. Just to be clear.

[00:27:26.820] - David

Yes. If you haven't seen SoapBox in Trumpland, you should definitely check that out. But I think, with those, again, with those types of beginnings, it's been very exciting. And I'm incredibly grateful, as I mentioned oftentimes times in the podcast, of the way I learn. I use it, really, as an educational tool and have been. But also as an opportunity to help sharpen my own skills and my own networks and my own ideologies that some of the guests that we have, we don't always meet eye-to-eye. Sometimes those are the most exciting conversations to have, when people don't feel insulted. But I don't think anyone ever has, hopefully. I mean, I feel you have, but fuck it, whatever.

[00:28:05.170] - Caullen

I do remember- this is... I mean, you guys, you all three, you said a bunch of things I want to touch on, thinking about. But what comes to mind with that is, we had Rio Mutasim. He said it both ways, I'm like, which one do I say? We had Rio on the podcast whose an underground hip hop artist in Chicago. Super talented, super kind, beautiful soul. And we just talked about his music and what it's like to be an independent artist, and we got a lot different things. And one thing that we didn't- that we end up cutting.. 1) for time and 2) because it just got- not messy... Like, hearing it back, it just didn't seem like it fit the overall conversation. I think we sort of deterred from it. But we did battle about whether we wanted to keep it or not. But we were talking about trans representation in film. And he was mentioning the film that Jared Leto was in. Jared Leto played a trans person, but he's not trans. We were talking about that. And I was talking about how that's an issue. And he was kind of like, yeah, maybe, but it was a beautiful.. Like, he acted his ass off. And we really got in the weeds about that. But that was one point where we did not agree with each other, but we still held humanity and where they were coming from. And got to a point where there was an understanding there. And I didn't vilify him or think he meant anti-trans rhetoric. But I wanted to help him understand why this is an issue. And how entertainment needs to be representative, as well as show these stories. And it's not that that means there isn't a trans actor that can play this role as well, that doesn't mean we should have Jared Leto. Whatever. I won't get into that conversation again.

[00:29:43.040] - Caullen

But I just remember that being a point with the guests and us not agreeing, but we had a good conversation about it. Unfortunately it didn't make that cut, but there's moments like that all the time. I think there's moments where it can get really heated when it's not great. Like "Sexism 8.3" if y'all wanna listen to that. Where we kind of back up and talk about it. And I think one of the things that I do... I didn't think about this as much until reviewing episodes, about the Trump episodes, because we kind of two of them. One was just letting folks know just how crazy this administration is and how everyone he was appointing was the opposite of what should be in that role. And I appreciate having that episode to lay the groundwork. The next time we revisited Trump, it wasn't about him, it was about Trumpism and neoliberalism, and how white supremacy is re-emerging in this weird way in the alt-right and all this kind of stuff. And also how the- because his administration, he, himself is so vile that folks want to take him out and leave it there. And I was like, oh, y'all, that's the floor, we can do so much better. And the better is not biting, right? So it was a deeper conversation about not Trump but Trumpism, and how it was a rebrand of the white supremacy we've seen for decades. We're just seeing in a different way.

[00:30:57.660] - Caullen

And so I appreciate that. I think I was in grad school, too. So I was getting- I was reading a lot and getting more language for things. But I always hesitate saying that because I feel like we all have the right language for stuff it's just some language is appreciated more than others in certain spaces. But that's a different podcast. But it was nice just having an outlet to think out loud about how folks challenge my, and our, ideas and make them more rigid and better for everyone's consciousness to be raised. And be able to create an outlet like that for ourselves that at the time, you know, we weren't getting the bag from it, but it seemed important and we could make it work. And then we fast forward to now where it's like- it's not taking the bag- but like, David and I get paid every two weeks, you know what I mean? The hours we put into Bourbon 'n BrownTown are paid hours, and that wasn't the case in 2017. Or 18 or 19.

[00:31:50.680] - Samantha

Episodes it seems maybe at least in the beginning, there are a lot of episodes that were maybe more planned, like some topics that you wanted to hit. And now 2020, 2021 happens and you're kind of witnessing some really traumatic moments in history. So, beyond even just how you guys were recording, what was that like for you guys during that time as well, too? I kind of see that as a shift for the podcast.

[00:32:13.640] - Caullen

I've said it once and I'll say it again, these watershed moments- ie: trump, ie: COVID, ie: uprisings, ie: the Dobbs decision, etc, etc. They can be super scary and devastating and violent and all the bad things we know, but they're also opportunities to bring folks in and to dig deeper in our own analysis, and our own action, and our own organizing, and our own accountability in a lot of ways. And so, I think, we had the pockets before Trump was elected, but that was kind of- we touched on a little bit. Again, got away from him as a person, but also, the presidency. Electoralism, right? These broader issues that no matter who's there, what's more important to talk about?

[00:32:58.520] - Caullen

But with COVID hits, like I just mentioned about how we were recording, having backlogged episodes, also an election year. And then when it hits, we had ended the No Cop Academy campaign a year prior, and David and I both grew as individuals a lot in our organizing, in our abolitionist analysis during that campaign. Shout out to everyone who was involved. And so we had talked about police abolition a lot. But we hadn't had an episode purely on it. And so we had Ariel Atkins, and at the time, Black Lives Matter Chicago on, and we chopped it up. And it was a really beautiful moment. I think initially, too, I was hesitant to have a guest, I had so much to say. But I was like, no, you're right, we should have someone who's been doing this longer than we have. And bring in a different perspective, and Ariel just came through. And it's one of those moments where we get asked this a lot as far as, oh, there's a thing happening here, make a podcast to react to it. It's like, it's both and. We have, like I said, we talk about police abolition a lot, but it seemed like a moment where folks were looking for something like that. And it seemed like we leaned into the moment but didn't get away from our values. It just kind of made sense.

[00:34:01.770] - Caullen

And, again, during the uprisings specifically, when these things happen, we all get better because we have to. Because we need each other to survive this fucking world. And so I was thinking about abolition differently and deeper as far as relationships, on a one-on-one level and all that. And so bringing all that into that episode was very cool. Then we kind of continued in the summer and these other episodes that are not about uprisings necessarily, but we dip into it. "Cops out of CPS", "Resisting in Place", how to document movements, what that looks like and feels like. It was a different time and we had to be super, super careful. And I think about those moments too, the 2021. It's different, COVID's still around, the national "conversation" is shifting back towards like, well, we need police. It's like, where were you? Y'all put up the black square, what'd that mean?

[00:34:51.490] - Samantha

Yeah.

[00:34:51.900] - Caullen

And so how do we engage with that? Which we also knew it was gonna happen, right? And so we shouldn't be surprised. So, I will close there. But those are kind of my initial thoughts on 2020, 2021 as far as what we were talking about and why and how and who.

[00:35:05.280] - David

Yeah. And I'll keep it a little simpler as y'all B'nB listeners know.

[00:35:08.870] - Caullen

What Caullen meant to say was...

[00:35:10.000] - David

I think, like 2017, I wasn't ready. Emotionally, mentally, for that type of shit to go down. As someone in their twenties or whatever, not politicized, not giving a fuck. I was thinking my heaven was literally in the sky, so I just needed to die and I'm gonna go to heaven. So, like, no- was no earthly attachments. Trump comes into play, shatters the entire thing through that. And think 2020 it was like, I was ready by that point. I think Caullen named a lot of things, a lot of examples. But I think to me it's like, cool, I've been prepped for this.

[00:35:49.050] - David

I can have all these conversations- and I was the type of motherfucker who, like, I was on Facebook. I was fighting every motherfucker you can think of on Facebook. And I was like, listen, motherfucker, my job pays me to do this so I'm gonna fucking talk to you on why. And we never really had trolls on our socials, like Facebook.

[00:36:06.451] - Caullen

We've had a couple.

[00:36:07.000] - David

We've had a couple trolls, nothing crazy. But like, to the point where I started getting trolls on my Facebook-. And I'm naming Facebook cause I'm not on Twitter, as y'all know. And my family's there, all my family in Mexico is there. So shout out to everybody in Mexico. But it was like, that's my form of communication. So again, 2017, Trump, 2016, I was like, fuck my life. What the fuck? And then 2020, I'm like, all right, cool. To Caullen's point, we- this is it, this is what we've been waiting. This is kind of what we've been waiting for. And so it was an opportunity to push theory into practice. From me understanding mutual aid, jail support. All of these things that are theory, oftentimes, or we hope will remain theory, but.

[00:36:49.320] - Caullen

Or like you put it, you need every once in a while when something happens versus for three months and on.

[00:36:55.300] - David

Yeah, yeah. And I also, I just, I think everyone can kind of sit within themselves and be like, can feel the energy of a July 2020. And so I used what I had come to through Bourbon 'n BrownTown with all the amazing motherfuckers who I've been meeting up into that moment. I was like, oh, cool, I've heard it enough times where I know how to challenge these ideas. I know how to critique idiots, really. And also do it in a way where I feel like they don't feel like I'm better than them. Cause I do feel oftentimes when I'm talking to motherfuckers, if I use a five syllable word, they're like, oh, you think I'm fucking stupid? Like, nah, dude, I don't think you're stupid, I'm just trying to tell you this word, it means this thing.

[00:37:41.650] - David

And so, I see both y'all shaking your heads, so, those are- that's why I was like, okay, this is why I can do this. Cause I can funnel everything that everyone else has been breaking down. It's like, let's talk about data, bro. Let's talk about the DOJ and their report release and why they're doing this this year. Like, let's look at the data points. And it's like, once you have that, you're just armed. You're armed and you just continue learning. So that was, for me, 2020 and moving forward. Because, at that point, Cards Against Humanity closed down. So, like, fuck. Here was this thing that had helped built us up. Or maybe, for myself, made me feel more like, cool, I'm a co-host. It's my show, let's fucking do some shit. Talk to motherfuckers. I get to drink. I get to smoke. Let's just, you know, let's talk.

[00:38:20.740] - Samantha

Yeah.

[00:38:21.220] - David

And then it falls apart. But it's like, nah, this is why we need to do this. This is why we kept doing this. And so that's kind of some of that energy that I think pushed us. And then kind of created- and this might be speaking too much, but I think created more confidence and trust with other folks that saw SoapBox. And I think that only strengthened our relationships, our camaraderie, our identities, coalition building. That's- I think it's all elevated through that. And we're grateful for everyone who has given us that trust, that confidence, that soap box. Because this is just more outside than Bourbon 'n BrownTown. I think SoapBox and Bourbon 'n BrownTown is but a vehicle within that.

[00:38:56.810] - Samantha

So you talked a lot about being ready to talk to people who weren't necessarily so informed about stuff that had been-

[00:39:03.770] - David

Or misinformed.

[00:39:04.650] - Samantha

or misinformed about stuff that had been always there. It just rose to the forefront when everyone was kind of- if you were privileged enough to be stuck at home, for the most part during that time. Were there moments during that time period that you guys felt challenged by maybe things you hadn't learned about groups that you started interacting with differently? Where maybe your core values and your beliefs were challenged by them? Or maybe you learned something new during that time that made you think, maybe I'm still a learner, I guess, too? Like during that podcast series that was going on at the time, or just people you were meeting in certain spaces.

[00:39:43.310] - Camille

I'm gonna play devil's advocate.

[00:39:45.170] - Caullen

Why you gotta be the devil though?

[00:39:46.370] - Camille

Cause it's Halloween.

[00:39:47.570] - David

It's Halloween! *laughing*. Go ahead, Camille, whatchu got?

[00:39:53.470] - Camille

I could just say, listen to you all and just going back and reviewing the episodes, it's like, the questions that it'll go- it'll be certain episodes. It's like, the questions that David asks and Caullen's perspective; or Caullen asks and David's perspective, was always challenged.

[00:40:13.240] - Samantha

Between each other.

[00:40:14.200] - Camille

Yeah. So it's like, I really want to hear. But it's just like, I can- so my devil's advocate played to that as like, I was challenged and say that it was always a never ending learning experience. Because it's like, I just spent the last few weeks struggling getting through these episodes and listening to you all kind of like... Be like, oh, I didn't know that. Or it's like, oh, well, I just learned this in this way, and let me take this back to the homies. So it's just like, I'm gonna say that they've been learning.

[00:40:45.250] - Samantha

Oh, yeah, definitely between each other, for sure. You guys would have no fire.

[00:40:49.550] - Camille

And with guests as well.

[00:40:50.560] - Samantha

And guests, too. I guess my question was more like, what is something that popped up in 2020 that made you think a little deeper? Outside of each other.

[00:41:00.610] - David

I mean, my initial thought was police tactics. It was always like, yeah, fuck 12, yeah, we know... And they're scared of us, yeah, cool. But naw, police tactics are it. You feel what I'm saying? Like, the way they can- yeah. And they also like- and just to think that 2020, they had been training for this.

[00:41:20.280] - Camille

They have been training.

[00:41:20.730] - David

So to me, I became more afraid of police in 2020. Specifically, there was one, Adam Toledo. He was killed by CPD. There was a march in Garfield Park. As people are exiting, fucking unmarked cars come in and start snatching people and throwing them into cars. And I'm with Jimmy- or James. And we got some of it. Nothing was useful, in terms of what we were able to get.

[00:41:52.079] - Caullen

Filming.

[00:41:52.250] - David

Yeah. But, we were there to document the police, and we're like, cool. And that whole night had been a whole fucking thing. And like, yeah... Just police tactics. And yo, yes fuck 12 is a thing, and you know, all about it. But it's like, we have to- there's serious repercussions, there's serious dangers, there's serious harms. They could do some real shit. And 2020, I think, was a closer manifestation to my timeline. Because we have history to tell us that these are the same, but in my lived experience, I hadn't seen what I had seen until those levels. But that's an initial response to that.

[00:42:28.130] - Caullen

Yeah. I'm still thinking, I'll be honest. But, I mean, Adam Toledo, he was killed in what? It was April 2021 or early 2021? So, I mean, I think it's still relevant. Very much so. Because this is after the uprisings, after the consciousness shift, abolition being- maybe not a household name- but not being something I have to explain so much to the layperson, what have you, whatever. And so I think it still matters that year after. And where COVID is at, and what the conversations are and the revanchism. And the revanchism back to the norm. Even the push to more carceral institutions and towards more violence, that's super scary.

[00:43:05.260] - David

But that's also why I feel like, for example, cops weren't snatching people the way they were. Like, in 2020, I think there were certain moments of heat, but I feel because they got comfortable, by the time 2021 strolls around, they're at a point where they've been empowered. And Lori Lightfoot has been like, I am by their side. I feel like because of the way 2020 played, 2021- they felt more like, con huevos to be like, we're gonna do all these things necessary. Like, raising. Because we've done this already, we can continue doing these type of things or heighten them more.

[00:43:36.070] - Caullen

And like, on the books, Operation Legends was the thing that Trump started. And it was like, that was part of some disappearing people across the country as well as Chicago. And I think about the No Cop doc. And shout out, Nava, a youth organizer with No Cop- she mentions during the decision day March 13 when the city decides to approve the $95 million cop academy. The $95 million cop academy. She's like, some of our organizers were assaulted IN city hall, where they make the policy for the city. Well, 3 million people live in Chicago. And she's like, so y'all are gonna assault us in city hall, and most alders are gonna clap about the approval of this cop academy while you're doing it literally yards away? So can you imagine what they're able to do outside of these halls? They're supposed to protect the people that are in this city. And we fast forward to 2020. We fast forward to Operation Legend and go zoom out to the national politics. I mean, to be true there, it could have been Biden, could have any fucking president. But, you know, I'm just saying it's a policy. And then we fast forward to Adam Toledo. I never heard you say that, actually, too, about being scared of police. Not only what they're capable of but emboldened to do.

[00:44:47.190] - David

Yeah. And also, we can't- not that we walking around with fear. But it's definitely something that changed in my personhood. Like, I'm careful when I drive now. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, yo, throw that shit out the car. You know, it's a different feeling. But, yeah, I think, yeah...

[00:45:05.430] - Caullen

I mean, if it hasn't happened to you it changes things, right?

[00:45:07.790] - David

Yeah.

[00:45:08.240] - Caullen

Someone asked me once, too, oh, have you ever been abused or harassed by a police? And I was like, verbally, hearing a little bit. Mainly actions and stuff, not really on my own. But, I don't want that experience or need that to know. But also like, yeah, you're right. And then some folks will- some folks will either get robbed, or something violent will happen to them and folks who aren't politicized necessarily, they're like, this is why I need the police. Right? And that's like a- it depends on who it is and their proximity to you, that's a difference in conversation. Because it's like, okay, so this already happened. And they're funded like a motherfucker, so it's almost like they didn't work because they're funded. So how do we pretend it didn't happen? When that happens to you, when you're in this emotional state, or if something's a very, very personal, it's sometimes very hard to challenge those politics. And I think for me, that's kind of where I started having those learnings in 2020 more and understanding how important relationships were in understanding that in my head and theory, and had some of those and also hurt some of those. And some were mended, and it was a whole trajectory from then on, especially.

[00:46:06.190] - Caullen

But seeing how, to your point, how extra violent they got was 1) terrifying, but 2) eye opening as far as understanding how much we need each other. And then also understanding, I think it is because they're scared. The closer we get to the goal, the more violent the oppressors get. They were out here. Netanyahu's doing his thing right now, right? IDF training CPD. It's all connected, right? And so I think for me, too, it was that as well.

[00:46:36.030] - Caullen

It's like, I've always- part of my going to consciousness as a young person was reading Black Panther literature and the magazine stuff, learning about Huey Newton and all that. And they were very clear about internationalism and Pan-Africanism and just other oppressed peoples globally and how all our fights are connected. And so... That, and the personal stuff, I think, were notes that I was starting to pull on in 2020. But also, sometimes I feel like- it's a great question- but it's like, we were just out here trying to do shit.

[00:47:06.180] - Caullen

And people needed rest. We need breaks. That includes us, but also includes folks I know who did a shit ton more than we did. And were putting out fires online. So it's just amazing. I think back then, in that moment, and how beautiful it was. Not just about how terrifying it was about how police got emboldened- whatever, but it's like, we were feeding people, we were training up folks both in organizing or expanding consciousness to folks.

[00:47:29.940] - David

Deescalating situations. Remember that shit on the West Side? They were trying to put Black and Brown people against each other? And three days later, there's a Black and Brown march on the West Side, on Cermak. It's like, yo, you need those moments, right? You need shit like that to happen to be able to then challenge the issues within these communities, within each other's. Cause then you're like, yo, what the fuck are you- what are you doing out here? Oh, cause, they come over here, motherfucker. What do you mean they come over here? Look at these motherfuckers got tanks. You're scared of that motherfucker over there? I don't know. I'm just thinking. I'm just now in 2021, on Cermak. But it's crazy.

[00:48:02.580] - Camille

No, that's real.

[00:48:03.210] - David

Yo, it happens.

[00:48:06.810] - Dakota

What's up, y'all? It's Dakota Silverman here. I just wanted to say a huge congrats to David and Caullen and all the folks on the 100th episode of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's just been so amazing to see the growth from starting in a living room of just some buddies kicking it, to having some really influential and wonderful, powerful conversations with movement folks and with all sorts of amazing people.

[00:48:43.630] - Dakota

One of my favorite episodes is the episode after the episode that I did. It's the episode, I think, 53 on abolition with Ariel Atkins. That's just like, a crazy- just perfect introduction. And, not only introduction, but expansion and really thought provoking conversation on what abolition is and what it can be and all those things. It's like a perfect thing. I always send that episode to folks. Super, super excited to see where Bourbon 'n BrownTown and where SoapBox and all the things can go from here. Things keep getting bigger and better, more impactful. It's just so, so amazing to see, I'm so lucky to have been a small part of that. So keep it up and thanks for all your work.

[00:49:42.370] - Samantha

So that kind of speaks to the point of storytelling in times of revolutionary times or watershed moments, like you mentioned. And do you feel the weight of responsibility of storytelling in those moments when you're kind of filming it as you're going along?

[00:50:00.230] - Caullen

During the moments, no. I think... One of the things that's cool about 2020- and we're gonna talk to ThoughtPoet soon- he's a dope photographer in Chicago, movement-based dude. But we met him during 2020. And I knew about his stuff beforehand, and I think we just had to find people and just do stuff and kind of see what happens. And I think that's a part of abolition. That's one other thing I've been thinking about from then to now. Especially it's like, all this shit is experimenting. Like, the American Project is super scary and says, all the money, all the power, and all the guns in the fucking world, but it's still a project. They're still just trying it. It's all happened to Rome, so it doesn't have to be forever. You know what I mean? Like, things on that level, then like, also the podcast.

[00:50:45.670] - Caullen

And like David mentioned before, it's like, he didn't see we'd be doing it forever- not in a bad way, too. I think, also, one of the things that I think people in general feel like if you start thinking you have to do it forever, there's no container for it. No, you can close it up. It exists in a time. You can appreciate that time, you can move on to something else. That's okay. That's kind of not how I think about things, how I'm wired. So I think understanding that and choosing to keep it going and choosing to integrate to our other work and our other personal work, too, I think is important.

[00:51:15.930] - Caullen

And so when it comes to storytelling, I.... It was harder for me to talk about SoapBox, pre-Bourbon 'n BrownTown, and why filmmaking and narratives and showing people stuff and not watering down our politics, but also making beautiful, fun, accessible stories in whatever fashion was important. Like, do we eat now? I'm like, they do need to eat now. But we also need to understand that we shouldn't have to just feed folks, we should dismantle this entire system we call capitalism and build something else. But also we need to feed folks, so it's like, yeah. I think now, the world has changed, too, as far as understanding the importance of storytelling, important to, really, myth busting in a lot of ways. And so if we all just say no and do something else, this would be sustainable.

[00:52:02.340] - Caullen

But those piecemeal- I'm not saying feeding people was was piecemeal. But, the piecemeal ideology as far as just doing the bare minimum or just doing some service stuff here and there, that doesn't have a revolutionary or a transformative mindset, is not sustainable for human beings and the planet. And I mean that literally. If you know me, I hate when people say that out of turn. So like, literally, we can't keep doing it how we have been. And so, if you go to like- I'm sure this is in English classes and film school and stuff, but it's like a story arc. You have the inciting incident, right? And you have the rising action, the climax, and it comes back down, resolution. And normally, the character/characters- there's some kind of change, right? There has to be for the story to be worth it in a lot of ways- and there's some critiques of that. But that's transformative. That in and of itself is transformative. The character learned a lesson, they change for the better. Let's hope. And that's what we're trying to do on a much larger scale. So I think that's why I think storytelling is so important, that's why I have to keep doing this. Because we have to not believe the lies they're telling us. Because those lies are violent and actually kill people. Whether it's overt and obvious like a war; or slow and over time and accepted and normalized like paying for fucking healthcare in the richest most powerful country in the world, at the most richest time in history.

[00:53:17.690] - David

The only thing I would add to that is the mindfulness of, these are also not our stories. You feel what I'm saying? It's not like Caullen and I in front of a camera every fucking time. So, in that- we've been very grateful with all the partners that we've had, all the collaborations we've been doing on the film-side of the world. From What Matters Productions, who is one of the early homies- shout out Quinn for providing some guidance, and connecting. And that's, to me, where it goes, right? So it's like, looking at what are the stories that we have the privilege to tell? And then doing our job, doing our best to make sure that we are as authentic and in line with what they are saying. And this is where, I think a lot of when we think of mistrust- it's like, oh, well, you're gonna take it and then do whatever the fuck you want with it. And it's like, I fucking, you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, whatever.

[00:54:17.690]

[crosstalk 00:54:18]

[00:54:18.060] - David

Because that's actually a thing, right? That actually happened. A lot of people have been hurt. A lot of people have been abused. A lot of people have not been compensated for their time and their efforts. And these are things that us as a group have always been mindful of, and now have the ability, the resources, the talent to be able to make sure that that is not the case. And so, the only thing I'd add to the developing of our storytelling has been, we've remained as authentic as we can and have been. I think we've only added to it. And I think the people who we work with also allow us, again, that trust and that confidence that we're not just gonna come in here and do whatever we want with your story, cause it's not our fucking story. It's your story. We got a mission and we both want to get the same- you know- we want something. Because there's still that privileged power shit that we have to be mindful of, right? You can't just come in here being like, oh, I'm your best friend, talk about everything. That's not how it works.

[00:55:08.768] - Caullen

Tell me your trauma.

[00:55:09.650] - David

But, you know, all the people who we have been working with, and every project that we've done- specifically some of these larger format projects that we've done recently, right? Like, we have the ability that they- and grateful enough that everyone likes what we do. They're happy seeing themselves on on the big screen. And that's a good fucking feeling. That's a great feeling.

[00:55:30.720] - Samantha

That's why I think the podcast is so important, too. Because you even said to us before we started this, if you guys need a break, take a break, you're in control of the pace of the way that it's going. And the space that you guys created with Bourbon 'n BrownTown, literally, they are in- sorry, Caullen, I said literally.

[00:55:48.400]

[laughing]

[00:55:49.700] - Samantha

They are in control of the direction that they want to take with. You know, you might ask them a question, but whoever is the featured speaker on that podcast highlights the orgs that they want to talk about, highlights the issues that they want to talk about. And it allows for that back and forth that gives them ownership and empowerment over themselves, I think, in the moment. Which I guess, I think you guys have always done a really great job at. Yeah. 2020, definitely very transformative for a lot of people. I think 2021 and onward, you guys have done an even greater job.

[00:56:27.910] - Samantha

Going to Caullen's point of expanding the network, a little bit, of who you're bringing on to the podcast. I've certainly noticed like, maybe people coming onto the podcast that I wouldn't have expected. Maybe at the beginning, more aldermen, more of an engagement with electoral politics. Because I think we all realize that as toxic and bad and devastating and negative as it can be, we still need to engage because we can't leave those systems alone. And if we are privileged enough to ask those questions of those leaders or those people in power, it is our responsibility to do that and to bring those conversations to people who normally wouldn't have, maybe those in their daily lives. So do you want to speak a little bit about the direction that the podcast has taken in the last two years? Maybe what sticks out to you during that time?

[00:57:25.240] - Camille

While you guys are pondering that, I just want a quick comment. I like how you guys talked about accessibility of storytelling. Because ideally you have leaders who are strengthening their expertise in these roles. Which also brings a perspective and a narrative that either, 1) people don't hear, that they're uninformed on, or the communication isn't strong about actually landing the message or the vision. So when you were just speaking on that and when you guys were speaking, I was like, I never realized that you guys are making storytelling accessible. Yeah. And it's like, I think for me right now, I'm just like, damn!

[00:58:11.020] - David

See, that's why we always learning in those seats, bro.

[00:58:13.900] - Camille

Yeah. And it's just so interesting because it's just like, you guys really do set the tone of like, oh yeah, come in. And it's going to be a conversation that's real, that's mindful, that's empathetic, that shows equity across different platforms. And I just think it's just so interesting, because as I'm sitting here listening to you all talk, it's just like... I just feel like you guys are these prophets of some sort.

[00:58:44.920] - Samantha

Oh, no. Don't give them too big of a head. Don't come wearing a 40 pound vest to the next one.

[00:58:52.640]

[crosstalk 00:58:53]

[00:58:56.100] - Caullen

This is your brain on drugs.

[00:58:58.000] - David

That was funny.

[00:58:59.660] - Caullen

I appreciate the love you all are giving. And it reminds me of how long we go back. And I kind of forget about. Because we have different but still strong, good relationships now that I'm excited to grow beyond this studio; beyond the space. But I- for some reason I thought about Ruby Pinto, one of our homies. One of my early organizing homies in Chicago. And she was on during- No Cop Academy had started, and we were just talking about the art she makes. And how and why she makes it how she does. And No Cop. And then- to our point, how you engage with folks who- I don't know if I wanna say like, either aren't politicized or hear about an issue or just want to challenge you- or are challenging you in bad faith. And even in doing that, there are still opportunities in how you do have those conversations. And I think... Ruby's brilliant in all the ways, and I just have a lot of love and appreciation for her. I think she was making a shift with her organizing, at the time, with For The People Artists Collective. And I was trying to see how to move in the city and organizing and stuff.

[00:59:58.650] - Caullen

And so what I remember- I'm not sure if it was after the podcast we had it on, or Chi DNA who interviewed her with Chi DNA as well. She was like, hey, can I get that footage back? I just want to watch it and see how to do better practicing my messages, speaking publicly and stuff. And I was like, 1) you're fucking fantastic, there's no notes. But also, damn, look at you trying to better yourself in all these ways, right? And so I think part of this whole process- I'll kind of curve into your question too, Sam- but meeting people that I have so much high regard for. Almost in a bad platforming way, we should be centering people like that, right? And like, man, you're so brilliant. But also being folks are still like, they know their shit. They know they know their shit. But also, still humble about it and always trying to grow and stuff. It's just nice being around folks like that, even if they're not folks we talk to all the time or continue super long relationships with. Like, oh, man, they were on it. And also, we're trying to grow and do better.

[01:00:55.550] - Caullen

And I think about the the inquisivity that I think David and I have, like the genuine thoughts we have and curiosity about people and topics and issues and how we think of ourselves in certain spaces or with certain topics. But also there's, again, language, right? I think part of me going to grad school was to- not necessarily have language for stuff- but just understand stuff deeper, and language just happened to help me. And, again, Chi DNA, I talked with a bunch of organizers who- a lot of folks like Ruby, like yourself, lots of folks who know the importance of branding and messaging to win stuff and to give us attention I think it's super important. And also, drill rappers who just talk about their experience and their music and stuff. And not those two... I think now it's a lot different, but those two spaces don't always message the same, but there's a lot of overlap.

[01:01:51.160] - Caullen

And I tried really hard to not say I or someone didn't have the language for certain things, because they do have the language. We always have a language for certain stuff. But I think certain language is prioritized differently or we're trained to pick up on it differently. And so I feel like- what I appreciate about what we've tried to do, and it's always trying- and so it's nice hearing stuff like y'all saying stuff about the podcast that's good and other people. Not because we just love people saying good stuff about our stuff, like, that's helpful. I do like that, but also, oh, okay, we tried this shit, and I'm just glad to hear it worked. I'm glad to hear it land. Or, this part was kind of interesting or didn't work real well, cool, tell me why. I want us to be better, and I want it to be good.

[01:02:29.620] - Caullen

I think coming into it with that humility or just openness for the messiness I think is good. We've had recordings where we're like, that was dope; but like, now ahh, what was that- should we put that out there? Is that....? How do we...? We want to be authentic, but also we got so honored privacy- you know, that's important to talk about. And I just think it's been a learning process and always will be. Especially just with all the issues of the world, but also just how we interact with each other and other people.

[01:03:05.170] - Camille

I still think y'all cool.

[01:03:11.410] - Emma

Hi, my name is Emma Terrazas. I studied at DePaul University with Caullen, and that seems like forever ago, but... And I'm also in the fitness industry, so Caullen and I have always connected on that and have been close friends. So congrats on the 100th episode. First of all, very, very exciting. And my favorite memory with Bourbon 'n BrownTown- it was back in 2018, and I somehow got invited to a live podcast recording with Tweak'G. She has been on the podcast since, but I just remember loving the energy in the room, just having to be quiet. You know, sitting and listening to their conversation. But I have been hooked since then, and I just really appreciate all the work SoapBox, you guys are doing. It's amazing. And I know it's not for the faint of heart, so just keep it up. Congrats again on the 100th episode. And I'm just so excited to see what other impact you will make in the years to come.

[01:04:17.000] - David

That's what's up. No, we definitely feel the love. I think, the only thing I could add to anything that Caullen mentioned is in terms of just also the excitement that we've had. In terms- at least, you're talking about these last few years. I think, we've been looking for a home, right? And so we're kind of like, crowd surfed a little bit. And then, because we were supposed to have this office back in January of this year. It is October 31st and we've been in here for just a couple months. And so it's like, even this was so delayed, but it was really one of those like, you ask God to give you patience so he gives you shit to wait for. And so this was it. He's like, alright you want patience, motherfucker, learn. *laughing*.

[01:05:01.590] - David

But it's just so grateful that we have it completely fleshed out the way we want it to. And that's just- it's what we've wanted to the terms. Cause, once again, to those stories, yeah, we do our best in wanting to be- and leave the stories authentic, but at the end of the day we still have that ability and that power to shift and move and create as creatives ourselves. And so, it's a wonderful line to toe, for sure. And I think we've... The projects that we've released on Bourbon 'n BrownTown on where it's at, and all the other little small things that we've been just- not have enough capacity to do- but that will come to fruition. They're all in line with the same identity and that's where we've been very grateful for SoapBox to be that space.

[01:05:45.720] - David

Because it could have been in a world where like, Bourbon 'n BrownTown is its own own thing. And it's not... Does its own little world type shit. It's like, we've heard plenty of times from motherfuckers being like, oh, you should only be doing one thing. You're doing too much. Like, no, motherfucker.

[01:05:57.202] - Caullen

And you ain't do enough, motherfuckers. What the fuck you talking about?

[01:05:59.230] - David

You don't get it. This is our multimedia format. It makes sense when we pitch it to you, not like this. And that's the beauty of it, is that we've literally created. And that's one of my favorite things. That's why with my bio, I thought about it a little bit more as like, being a first gen, being the first to get a degree. In creative writing, that's right, dad, it's creative writing.

[01:06:21.060] - Caullen

Get paid out here.

[01:06:22.260] - Samantha

It's a thing, yeah.

[01:06:23.460]

[crosstalk 01:06:24]

[01:06:25.840] - David

A homie of mine was like, man, are there any jobs out there that pay decent? And like, your bosses aren't trash? And I was like, just make your own. And that does, you know, I said that from a place of love because I was just like, well, I mean, I was able to make it. Because you have to try, and that's where it comes, right? It's just trying and it's trying and it's trying and it's trying. It's what works, what doesn't work? We've changed- from the listener, if you listen to 1 to 100, there's a huge difference in how the flow goes. I think I started getting more confident in challenging Caullen.

[01:06:58.150] - Samantha

Yes. *laughing* There were some moments, David, where I wanted to stand up for you in some of the earlier podcasts. I was like, Caullen...

[01:07:07.404] - Caullen

Give it to me, please!

[01:07:08.430] - Samantha

There were some moments where I'm like, if we're approaching this from an open space, like, you can't- sometimes you're a little harsh sometimes on some opinions of his that I did not necessarily agree with, but sometimes I'd be like, you know, take a step back for a second, he's coming from a different spot than you.

[01:07:26.910] - Caullen

It wasn't the Real conversation, right? Maybe I hadn't learned by then, but maybe I did later on. No, I appreciate that. I'm genuinely curious. Like, oh, I want to.

[01:07:33.850] - Samantha

I think you've definitely- I think both of you, to David's point, have gotten so great at interviewing and holding space for each other's experiences and opinions as they've come out in the conversations that you've had on the podcast where it's not- you're not trying to come off as like, oh, I know a little bit more than this than you sometimes. It's just a natural human reaction to be like, oh, I can't believe you didn't know that or something like that. But I think you've become a little bit more intentional in your conversations with each other in the podcast.

[01:08:01.330] - David

You have to say, I gave him a heart.

[01:08:02.924] - Caullen

Wowwwww!

[01:08:03.950] - Samantha

And, David, you became really great with your questions in interviews as well, too. I really did notice. A couple of times, even today, we've gotten off the beaten path a little bit. And, you've- I think you're really skillful in the way that you come back to the conversations and whatever questions might have been there before.

[01:08:22.570] - Caullen

Yeah, I really appreciate you. Like, we're both the co-hosts, we all bring different things, but structurally, it's not on paper anywhere. But you are kind of more of the host-y host, where I might engage with the guest. So I kind of get into the weeds. And it's related, but you're like, yeah- so here, back to the sheet we made, you know what I mean?

[01:08:38.890] - Samantha

Yeah.

[01:08:39.660] - Caullen

And I'm like, oh, yeah, I appreciate that. Like, oh man, I need to bring you in more and just be feeding on each other. Still having those soft roles, but still balancing it, is appreciated. And I think, like your question three questions ago, saying about having the myriad of guests. Not in a sense of identity, positionality, or topic experience, just how they present in a room or over Zoom. You've had lots of folks who are organizers who are not the folks with the bullhorn out in front of the crowd leading the chant. We've had them, too. For the folks who are, "they say they're in the background" they're doing the spreadsheets or taking notes in the meeting and stuff, and have all this insight, all this skill that people need to hear; especially other folks like them, I think is important. So it's nice- it's cool seeing folks like that on the pod and giving them space while shepherding it and spreading it around. And by the end of the pod, it's not a huge difference, but you can tell they're more comfortable; they're sharing more.

[01:09:38.260] - Caullen

And then seeing folks that are normally the bullhorn leaders, in front of the crowd, do this a lot, know how to message, and know how to talk in ways that are... Again, it's the language thing. But they know.. I think there are certain things that folks had their ear perked to, as far as sentence structure and storytelling that people like, which is kind of what we try to do this. But they're trained in that, in a way. Which is good, helpful, great. Especially editing movies or interviews, we have to cut it up. The podcast is different. But then there's times where they're kind of quiet, or we try to turn on ourselves a little bit. And so, it's just- it's not decentralizing, we're just making things messier intentionally in a way that just makes like, oh, we're all... There's parts of us in everybody, right? And you can be seen in the world as an extrovert, but you have those quiet times where you need to sit and reflect, and vice versa.

[01:10:27.780] - Samantha

I appreciate you saying that, because when I first got involved with you guys- I haven't spoken about myself too much on here- but I didn't know necessarily how to get involved because I am not that bullhorn person, I've never been. Sometimes I don't feel comfortable in protests, to be honest. Maybe some of that fear that you were talking about, David, about the police. My father was a police officer. Also not always feeling safe being a very small Brown woman in certain spaces. So I struggled in law school, in college, and even the few years after law school, not knowing where to find my place in all the movements. I grew up on the North Side of Chicago. We had a very diverse array of people in our community. But I will say, in my high school there were three Black people, a handful of Latino, Hispanic people there. So I was coming into consciousness in college and didn't feel like I had anything to say about it because I was still learning. And when I became involved with you guys, I was more of a listener for the first few years. Very directly with the podcast and with the other projects you had.

[01:11:40.740] - Samantha

And now, by working with you guys more as a Board Member, I've come to appreciate that, yes, not everyone is supposed to be at the front of the protest with the bullhorn. I'm more skilled in introducing you guys to people in the community that can amplify your voices in a different space that maybe you might not have contemplated reaching a couple years ago. Or helping with behind the scenes work, stepping in to something like this, which is really uncomfortable for me, but I love doing it because I get to interact with you. So I think my experience with you has empowered me to believe that I can't have... I can't be the best at everything, which I thought I could be when I was younger. But as long as I'm good at what I'm doing in the space that I'm in, that has an intentionality towards our mission as an organization, that's still valuable in itself. And that becomes more valuable over time, I guess.

[01:12:38.790] - David

That's what's up, Sam. We always say, "get in where you fit in." And you literally did. Shout out.

[01:12:43.880] - Samantha

Yeah, for real. You know, we've been referencing episodes back and forth as we've been kind of plugging in about the timeline of the podcast and SoapBox in general. So I think Camille and I might just be curious to know: what are specific episodes that kind of stand out to you that we can plug right here to get people to go back and listen to that were really memorable to you, you really enjoyed those interviews? Or something that really stands out, I guess, from those episodes in particular?

[01:13:14.730] - Caullen

There's definitely a lot.. Like, all 100 of them. I guess they all don't have just guests, too. So I wouldn't say all of them.

[01:13:22.830] - Samantha

Some are you just chopping it up.

[01:13:24.610] - Caullen

Yeah! I mean, a couple- I was kind of saying.. 1) to have my mom on. "Public Health 2.0."

[01:13:29.990] - Samantha

I love that one.

[01:13:31.500] - Caullen

Just, even the episode aside, just having my mom here talk shit and, like..

[01:13:36.280] - David

She was at Cards Against Humanity.

[01:13:38.380] - Caullen

Card Against Humanity's studio space looks super cute. And then she's like, what do you do? I'm like, I don't know, just come and watch. *laughing*

[01:13:43.260] - Caullen

So she was in the booth. David and I, and she- I love my parents dearly, both of them. I'm like both of them a lot; but people meet my mom- my parents, and me, like, oh, you're like your mom. Like, y'all go crazy. And it's like, you're right, we look pretty similar, we interact similarly. So that was kind of nice to see an older female version of me talking too. But also it was just cool to have her in the space. And my dad was, like, behind the glass with Genta watching intently. Benji Hart was on the episode before that. They spread like... They went crazy talking about LGBTQ+ representation and liberation, what that looks like with film and in the streets in real life. They had a bunch of questions about that. Like, the night before when we were in town in Chicago- we'd just come through and listen to Benji just talk their shit. So that was another layer on it, too.

[01:14:31.610] - Caullen

I think Airgo had an event that night so we walked out- they were out there, so it was nice, a little, like, community, right? We say that a lot, but it was like, all these folks in different walks of our life and we've learned a lot from and built with in different ways- either then or since then. And that just stuck out, the conversation itself was cool. And my mom and I, since then, we've had more conversations about politics and health and whatever. But that was a good sparking moment to that, and what it looks like in academia, which I like... Always critique, but also still gathered a lot from. And she teaches in, and also critiques, but also gets her check through them. And like, how do we, again, this very question on how do we engage in these systems that either are inherently violent and not for us, or just are that way- in a way that is authentic to us and feels good and values aligned. But also it's challenging it and making it better and bringing more people in to get the good notes out of it and leave the bad.

[01:15:24.350] - Caullen

And I think building, going back to grad school, intentionally making myself better: interviewing, whatever, but also it makes SoapBox better, I think was a part of that. As far as language and academia, and kind of understanding these things, not being from Chicago and learning about the city on an academic level, then seeing the repercussions, ramifications of decades of both the Daley's. What Harold Washington did and understanding that. Like, yeah, I see neoliberalism all the time, it's seeing how it started here. UChicago. When you think about migrants, asylum seekers coming to the States to look for a better life, like, America did that. It's colonial liberalism. Sorry, Milton Friedman started on the block UChicago, like. This is all well documented, right? And so it's like, how do we talk about planetary-wide historical events, but at the same time talk about how it's affecting us now? And more importantly, what we can do about it? In a way that everyone can understand it. Whether you're... in... being in law school and being in all this stuff, or just someone on the block and listening to the podcast. So it's like, that accessibility, I want- it's not that I want everyone to listen to it and be able to understand it, but I think that's how David and I interact in general. And I think that's important. The micro, the mezzo, the macro- we live these worlds simultaneously all the time. There's no reason we can't talk like that. And we can drink and have a little fun while we're doing it?

[01:16:49.940] - David

Yeah. No, I mean- I've been thinking about your question, Sam. Those early episodes, I would also admit, I allowed myself to drink a lot. Which is like- I was like- okay, I'm gonna get drunk. And Caullen's like, yeah, go ahead, let's drink. I was like, fuck it. So that's probably-

[01:17:03.260] - Samantha

Enabler.

[01:17:04.930] - David

Those first few episodes, yeah, we were definitely just... And nervous, I guess. We used alcohol to ease our nerves. But I really remember that episode with Brian Sauder, who is the minister, right? And coming from my- you know, I was raised in a cult, right? And so here I am, ex-cult, listening to this man of faith, speak his faith. I was like, man..

[01:17:27.930] - Caullen

Skeptical as hell!

[01:17:31.190] - David

Uh, and that was just such an exciting moment. That was just one of those instances that kind of lit this for me in terms of, yo, okay, you could do this. This is it. This can be something you can do as a person who... because these are traits and Caullen's kind of named a lot of these in terms of some of these are just inherent. In terms of who we are as individuals. Like Aussie V knows us now, at this point, next door. And we're different enough where I think, you know, it's probably because we were friends first, and then we started working together, and then we became closer friends, and then we got real good into the work we were doing. Okay. Like, one's empowering the other, so it's like... I don't know. It's been very exciting. And so to the question, Brian Sauder is one that I'm thinking of.

[01:18:15.920] - David

And then I've also been just really grateful at the opportunities that we allowed ourselves in terms of... You know, when we're recording 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 that wasn't gonna.... like that... I mean, we planned some of it, right? But we didn't plan it. You know what I'm saying it? It didn't go all according to plan. We like, okay, how can we fix this? Or how can we adapt with this? And that's something that I've been very proud of us at Bourbon 'n BrownTown. And taking those opportunities, whether that's with the 8.1 to 8.3 sexism series. Or taking on something like the Collective Freedom Project series. Or, being like, you know, Chi DNA is this thing, what if we start doing some Chi DNA episodes? Chi DNA becoming a thing. Or then just building on previous conversations like, our 2.0s, and our 3.0s. It's just like, those are opportunities that we- granted- we talk about, well, what do we want? Do I want it? You want to talk about it? So there's those initial conversations at all points. And it's what's gotten through at the end that's always been very exciting to see. Like, some of these plans really worked out.

[01:19:19.980] - David

Some of these really worked out well. Our Whiskey 'n Watching series, which is really exciting now in terms of us just us watching movies, and then talking about it with some dope ass people. So I've been really grateful at that in terms of not any specific episode, but the opportunities we allow ourselves with how each thing has developed. Because we're saying it's the hundredth episode, it's probably more, to be honest, because...

[01:19:41.680] - Samantha

Shhh, don't say that. This is the 100th episode.

[01:19:47.140] - David

But, you know what I'm saying. I think it's just exciting at what the product that we have now, the relationship we got from- and what can come next.

[01:19:55.520] - Caullen

The relationship thing is a big thing. I know we keep going back to that, but the earlier question about guests and stuff, it's like- it's a bit of ripple effect from the early episodes that were just David and I. Then we started getting guests because we didn't want to lean-into things we just didn't know about. Or the positionality to think through in a different way. But as relationships got more integrated into movement and into the arts, into film, the film world- it's also still representative of the podcast and vice versa. Because back then, we still would've had Camille on, we still would've had Larone on, we still would've had all the other people we've had on because everyone's brilliant.

[01:20:37.320] - Caullen

But it's different now where it's like, oh, okay, I want to talk about... David and I want to talk about the Israel/Palestine. It's more so in the news than it ever has been in my lifetime. And I remember.... And I think about it differently than I have as a child. And not only do we have folks we just already know from relationship building, from organizing, from media stuff we can call on and be like, hey, we can- we follow someone on social media that we don't really know, we know who they're affiliated with, and we can get it an e-meet. Like, hey, Homie X, you talk to Homie Y, like, hey we want to do this. Send them an email. We link Bourbon 'n BrownTown. We're like, hey, we've also talked to people I know you know, and know you trust. And hopefully that means that lends that trust to us. And if not, all good, that's your space. But it's nice, even if we don't know folks, we can reach out and still feel like there's a connection there. And I really don't think there's ever been a time where we had someone sitting and we're talking to them and we're like, oh, this is not who I thought it was. It's always been love.

[01:21:36.370] - Caullen

That's been really cool. And I think, to your point earlier about electoral politics and having alders on, it's so interesting to think about because we have Maria Haddon on the 49th ward earlier.

[01:21:48.540] - Samantha

Rossana.

[01:21:49.750] - Caullen

Yeah. Maria was first, a couple years ago. And I think we wanted to engage in the conversation of electoral politics and activism. She comes from a different background, and that was important to get that perspective. Someone who's sitting, making decisions. And it's weird because we want to simultaneously not position electeds as heroes or saviors or celebrities or the cause or beginning of all these problems, or good things. But simultaneously, they're still people living in the world doing stuff. And so, folks that are kind of close to us or somewhat values align or very values aligned, it's everyone talking to them about their experience. And we can kind of poke and prod at them and try to get them to name names, even if they don't.

[01:22:35.780] - Caullen

Fast forward, we have Byron Sigcho-Lopez. We have Jesse Fuentes, who at the time, was an alder-person elect. Hadn't been in the seat yet. We had Rossana Rodriguez Sanchez, shout out. And all these dope folks who we've also, in certain instances, signed on Zoom calls with, or had meets about campaigns and stuff with. And worked together. But also, we have a relationship outside of that. And that goes for most of the folks we've had on. Not everyone, most of the folks we had on. Or we have them on once, like Brian. Then 2020 hits, COVID hits, we do these IG lives. David's talking to Brian, like, yo, how's it been? What are you up to? What's going on? Your wife has COVID? Oh shit, tell me about that. And we're not talking about the environment necessarily, we're just talking about like, hey, how are you people?

[01:23:23.440] - David

Check-ins have also been therapeutic, bro. Like, they've been fantastic. But that's for another episode.

[01:23:29.840] - Camille

What about you, Sam? What's your favorite episode?

[01:23:33.160] - Samantha

I'm gonna be super easy with my answer and say the one where I got to sit in also in the sound booth at Cards Against Humanity. It was "Law For Liberation" with Tia and Jesús, I think.

[01:23:45.488] - David

Oh that's what's up. That's what's up.

[01:23:45.830] - Samantha

And that was exciting for me because that was the first real time I had been in your space; instead of just on the website or listening to the podcast. Like, more directly involved. And I remember feeding David some questions about stuff. Cause I think...

[01:24:00.670] - Caullen

They're lying.

[01:24:01.580] - Samantha

No! There's something to do with...

[01:24:03.600] - Caullen

It was 1986.

[01:24:04.790] - Samantha

Was it Jason Van Dyke?

[01:24:06.486] - Caullen

We talked about that a lot.

[01:24:06.540] - Samantha

I think it was around that time. I think I was feeding some questions to you that I personally had. And then seeing you ask the questions, like, directly.

[01:24:15.870] - Caullen

[inaudible 01:24:16]

[01:24:19.250] - Samantha

Just being able to see the behind the scenes of how you guys got set up, but also, being able to ask questions that made it onto the podcast. And hear the answers from people who are directly involved in those spaces. I might have met Tia at some point beforehand, but maybe not that directly and maybe not as truthfully or as vulnerable as she might have been in that position. Because everyone puts on their public face, basically, when they're in their professional sphere. So I really liked that. I like your New Year's look backs as well, too.

[01:24:54.152] - Caullen

Those are fun.

[01:24:54.530] - Samantha

Yeah.

[01:24:55.140] - Caullen

That reminds me of how we are now, a little bit, in a different way.

[01:24:57.540] - Samantha

Yeah.

[01:24:58.272] - Caullen

You know what I mean?

[01:24:59.010] - Samantha

Yeah. Definitely like that. I liked electoral politics because I liked hearing about the more progressive-leaning perspectives on candidates that are running. Because you can get mainstream left, you can get mainstream right. But it was nice to kind of hear from people who are directly affected by the policies that people are talking about. Just hearing those voices come to be on the podcast was super cool. What about you, Camille?

[01:25:29.150] - Camille

All of them.

[01:25:30.290] - Samantha

All of them? Aw, that's a cheap answer. You said you were listening to them yesterday, so you got to give an answer.

[01:25:38.270] - Camille

Me, I'm the favorite one. No.. I also.. I think- y'all gonna laugh at me- I have, like, seven, for real now. I think overall, now I'm gonna put the number one on my list is the one about the death gap. That one was very interesting. And there's also- really quickly- a timestamp where Caullen, I think. No, not Caullen. The host gives the definition of the CDC at 4:19. And then Caullen comes in with the questions about, at the five minute mark. And then David brings his perspective at the nine minute and 39 second mark. These are my notes I got for y'all.

[01:26:25.780] - Caullen

You write descriptions on the episodes just like that?

[01:26:29.050] - Camille

No, I literally did. So that one was interesting. And then after- meeting your mom and then going back and listening to that episode was interesting. And at the 34 minute mark where David asked his questions, and then I put, like, "34:34, Le Greta's words." It was just really interesting for me just listening when we talk about healthcare. Healthcare, what that looks like for Black and Brown people. What does eating look like? What is where we live kind of influence our health. Was like, oh, because of COVID this sparked another conversation about what health looks like for us.

[01:27:13.650] - Camille

And then I liked the Mashaun Ali, the restorative justice approach. Because now, because of COVID, we're trying to think about which- we're thinking about and trying to implement all of these ways to hold each other accountable; and then restore that transparency and trust amongst one another was also interesting. But then, you know, it's like, the Alyx Goodwin, that one is good. The one with Morgan is good about social media. So... I love all of them. Overall. Like, just, again, thank you guys. Because this is like- I'm kind of like, are y'all celebrities?

[01:27:52.570] - Caullen

Not me!

[01:27:53.770] - Camille

I'm like, I know them!

[01:27:54.770] - David

He's on a billboard, low key.

[01:27:54.970] - Samantha

He IS on a billboard, yeah.

[01:28:02.470] - Caullen

We're still boycotting that billboard right now because we got beef with him.

[01:28:04.050] - Camille

Where is this billboard? Can I go take pictures of it?

[01:28:05.250] - Caullen

I'll tell you off the mic.

[01:28:08.910] - Caullen

I do wanna say real quick, I think what's been cool... My reflection on our growth, whatever, it's like, this having a platform. When I think about my favorite episodes, the Chi DNA live at DePaul was dope. And for a lot of reasons, y'all can look at that, but at the end of the episode Heavy Crownz, dope Chicago rapper, now homie of ours, we're talking about code switching. And David's like, save it! And, we gotta wrap up. We wrap up. David's doing his host host thing, right? And then we have an episode about code switching.

[01:28:35.190] - David

Cause we had to talk about it.

[01:28:36.000] - Caullen

Yeah, we had to talk about it.

[01:28:37.232] - David

Heavy had words.

[01:28:37.970] - Caullen

He had his experience as a Black man, me and my experience as a Black man, which are not the same. David's experience as a Chino man. Like, we talked about code switching in all the ways, but just lean into what we have experienced. So, like, could it have been about Heavy's new album? Yeah, and it would have been dope. But it wasn't. It was like, Heavy, when have you had a code switch and why? And why? As a Black man in this country at your age in this city? So having a platform to like... And it sounds and egotistical, and I guess it is, but just, this is a cool topic. We all experience it in different ways, some more than others. We all have different experiences about it. We can articulate it enough to, I think, make it engaging. So let's talk about it and put that out there for folks to listen to and hopefully learn something from and just maybe smile or laugh or cry or whatever. And I think that's important. And I think it can be egotistical and like, no, I think this is good. And I want to talk about this and have change and make people feel better.

[01:29:25.580] - Samantha

Yeah. To be honest, most people don't have that after- like, if they're privileged enough to go to college. Like, that stops once you're done with the academic part of your life. So maybe not a lot of people are talking or thinking in the way that the podcast allows for people to do. Obviously, you have people on who are always talking about these things and are always in these spaces. But those are levels of conversations that usually don't happen for an everyday person. So that's super valuable to have.

[01:29:56.820] - Camille

This is why Bourbon 'n BrownTown is here, for this language accessibility, this storytelling accessibility. For folks and individuals to come and try to articulate what it is that they're trying to say on the platform. So reach out to them. Donate. Donate.

[01:30:16.950] - David

That's such a cool thing. And the last thing I'll mention is, also the opportunities that we've taken with trusting other people wanting shit. Like, yo, y'all are dope. I want to collab with y'all. Okay, we hear you. We hear you. We're just like.... We got things going on. And so it's been really exciting that people also feel at liberty to be like, y'all... You know, we respect that. We love the work, can I work with y'all? How can we get these things going? I got this to talk about. And I think that's also been cool, because at first, we definitely were a little more rigid in terms of timing and the resources were more scarce. But I think now with this blessing of Harambe Studios and just, x, y... It's exciting, and it's been nice to reminisce a little bit more deeply, I feel, than. I was like, oh, it's kind of a new years episode, no, it's not. It's like, this has been really exciting to sit right here where I'm at in terms of B'nB and just listen to the scope of from 2017 to now.

[01:31:12.490] - Samantha

Yeah, it's kind of exciting to have the hundredth episode around the time you guys are, I think, fully situated in the office. I know Caullen's trying to get rid of boxes, always posting about it on social media.

[01:31:23.620] - David

No, it's gone by the time this episode is out, these boxes should not be in here.

[01:31:27.230] - Samantha

I guess on that note, since we're kind of at a really cool time for you guys. This is a very open-ended question, but what does the future look like? What do you want for the org? What do you want for the podcast? What do you want for yourselves? For the 200th episode, what should we be excited for?

[01:31:46.150] - David

I hope it doesn't take us six years to get to 200.

[01:31:49.010] - Caullen

It won't.

[01:31:51.110] - David

No, but. No, go ahead, I'll let you start.

[01:31:56.390] - Caullen

The future, to me, looks like.... I'll start micro and then get macro. For us: learning more, doing less, changing more, and making more money. And I say that just because I think- money is so interesting, because it's on one end, this thing we made up that rules the world that is so.... violence is made around it. But at the same time, our livelihood and our life is attached to its attainability. And it's a marker of success, so it's like, yeah, do I want to not have to teach fitness classes in order to sustain myself? There might be an extra thing I do because I get paid just enough or more than enough by doing what I love with SoapBox and B'nB, of course. And I'm like, that's been a marker for me, just for how I live my life. And I want that for everyone in our orbit and more. And I want, more importantly, and what's been nice about this happening simultaneously is for us to do more meaningful work that's getting out there for more folks. That's both media wise and organizing wise. And the stuff that we don't have on our site all the time, stuff we don't see.

[01:33:08.220] - Caullen

And I think we're part of this trajectory. I think it has revolutionary potential, but part of that storytelling and myth busting and believing in ourselves and making it easier to believe that a new world is not only possible, but we will see those real manifestations in our lifetime- I want that to be the case. And I want when these watershed moments happen ie: Israel going crazy on Palestine. Ie: the Dobbs decision. Ie: all the things that we know to be true, and to be happening in the past couple of years. For them 1) not to happen as much. But if, when they do, for folks to already be not giving the knee jerk reaction, but thinking more transformatively. And not only the folks that we know that we've been building with and learning from in the past several years, but it being always a talking point on the mainstream networked conversations. But then there are points where those aren't even what's looked to.

[01:34:09.250] - Caullen

I'm kind of speaking in processes and stages when I say this. But that's what I hope for the future. And as dark as the world and our communities and our own actions and things around us can seem, and do seem, and will continue to seem here and there. Even with that, I have a lot of hope. I might regret that. But I feel like I have a lot of hope on what we, in the most collective sense, can do and reject and build to make everyone's lives better at the end of the day.

[01:34:48.750] - David

I think I would answer that question with.... You know... I mean, I really love what Caullen said about all of us getting paid to not have to do... If I could do this shit full-time, full fucking time that would be amazing. But I think outside of that, but less- more micro to the point, I think it's like, I'm excited at the new collaborations. The collaborations that have yet to happen, the networks, the people that we have yet to work with, right? In terms of having the same goals and ideas in terms of what liberation looks like: starting with Black liberation. And understanding- that's what I'm excited, too. Because I think more and more people are coming into this consciousness. And so it's like, either we are the beginning stages of that, or you've kind of already been in it for a minute.

[01:35:40.720] - David

And so it's thinking of the future and SoapBox and so many brothers and sisters who've come into this space and been like, bro, this space is revolutionary in itself. Just as the spaces of whether we're talking about this podcast room, or just the shit that we're trying to do. And I think a lot of other groups in Chicago are trying to do the exact same thing. But I think the niche that we have and the intersection that we hit, in terms of: organizing, entertainment, and media, we hit this interesting space where... That's where I think our potential is infinite. As an entity in terms of, not only the stories that we get to tell, not only the collaborations and projects we get to do on, but the ending goal, that I think Caullen is constantly putting at the forefront of our mind. Because while freedom and liberation are a constant. Motherfuckers we got to deal with- we got deal with motherfuckers right now. We gotta do shit. We gotta help motherfuckers right now. We gotta move with that.

[01:36:45.410] - David

And so any way that we can do so, any way that we can either- and again, whether that's through all the avenues that SoapBox has available to it or other. Because that's also the other thing, like Caullen has mentioned terms of our networks. We're establishing more growth. Like, oh, we can't do it, but this other group can. Or actually we don't work that way, but here's this group that does. Or like, we don't do electoral work as much, but CV is right next door. So there's different ways that I think we then start honing our organizational powers. And I'm speaking this to everybody else. It's like, it's gonna come to a point, like we have to make our own shit happen. I'm not saying we're gonna start our own broadcasting system, but like, can that be a potential between all the resources that we have? All the motherfuckers we know who do dope ass shit. It's like, can we create our own- or is that what we need? Is that what the revolution needs? Maybe not. Maybe the revolution needs something specific or something different. And then that's where we have to be open, adaptable, and ready. And so I definitely think that future has that for us. Hoping with the support of all of our listeners and everybody else who's been fucking with us for the last few years, we continue to do this work.

[01:37:54.760] - Samantha

Nice.

[01:37:54.940] - Caullen

Yuh!!

[01:38:03.560] - Ernest

Caullen, with sincere admiration and pride, we would like to extend our sincere congratulations to you and the SoapBox Productions & Organizing team on the grand opening of the first ever SoapBox Production & Organizing Chicago office. Your focus, hard work and dedication over the years have resulted in the growth of SoapBox Production & Organizing from simply a player in the Chicago social justice arena to a recognized entity respected for their knowledge, professionalism and ability. The utilization of varied multiple media resources to inform, educate, and raise awareness of key Chicago initiatives is to be applauded. We are proud of you, son, and wish you and SoapBox Production & Organizing continued success in the future.

[01:38:56.960] - Caullen

Thank y'all! If you've been listening and this was like- if you saw this being posted. Like, oh, I'm excited about the hundredth episode, that's cool. If that was your mindset coming into this, thank you for just being with us for so long. And drudging through the episodes where there was too much bourbon and not enough BrownTown and maybe we said something cringey or whatever. Like, thank you for sticking it out with us.

[01:39:16.220] - Caullen

And language changes, the world changes. Even looking back at different- even movies and stuff. And things we created in the past like, ugh, I know at the time that was it- but now I'm like... ugh! So just thank you. If you're a newcomer, I hope this piqued your interest. And I would say, I think we both can say this, if someone's like, what do I listen to first? And it's like, scroll through, something. If you like- if the environments your thing, if women's rights your thing, if you- fuck cops, something's gonna say that in the title. Just listen to it.

[01:39:43.470] - Caullen

And please, y'all, just please, if you do anything, read the episode notes. They're shorter now. They're concise. We go through a lot, and sometimes it makes sense to contextualize stuff. And sometimes it's like, it's just that we're flowing and we're going for it. If we say something that doesn't- you're like, oh, I don't know what that is, or what they're referring to- it's probably in episode notes. You can see it there, and it'll help it be more broad. And, just being a host, talking through things, like, oh, too much context/ not enough context. It's an ongoing battle for both of us. So it's just like, probably in the episode notes, learn more, do more, talk to your people. Like, I don't know. I appreciate everyone, if they've gotten this far, even this episode, I'm sure it's gonna be long.

[01:40:19.810] - David

That's so funny. No. And I think, for me, I'm sitting with gratitude. I'm really grateful to both of y'all. And the way y'all came in. Clearly, y'all- the vehicle was Caullen that brought y'all into my space. But I'm very grateful that we've been able to develop the relationships that we have. And that we're here today. I think this is really exciting. So I'm really grateful for y'all.

[01:40:38.530] - David

And then I also want to give a shout out to the people who've been helping us make it happen. You know, like, Genta Tamashiro, he started off as a homie of mine. My man carried his gear- he biked from fucking Pilsen all the way to Wrigleyville the first two times. Granted, he liked biking. And he was like, oh no don't worry, it's a beautiful thing. I was like, cool. He did it a couple times, then he's like, I'm not doing it no more. I'm like, alright, we never needed to do it, Genta! Y'all- you wanted to bike all the way up here. Then we started doing it at his crib. So shout out to G-man for doing it. And then also shout out to Kiera, who's been with us for years now. So-

[01:41:09.584] - Caullen

She's like, lord willing. Lord willing.

[01:41:09.710] - David

Shout out to some of the people who really helped make it happen. Because, again, a lot of this work, it goes back to those partnerships, a lot to the camaraderie. It's a teamwork, it's a network, it's never just one individual. And that's why I've been very grateful to SoapBox as our overall entity, right? Because if you don't know Bourbon 'n BrownTown, you might know SoapBox. And, yo, that's it. And if you know Bourbon 'n BrownTown and you don't know SoapBox, bro, you fucking up. But that's somebody-

[01:41:34.460] - Caullen

But we appreciate you. And your feelings are valid. Okay.

[01:41:37.960] - David

Yeah, no. But naw, those are my last words. And shout out to both of y'all. Jamie, as well, who's been recently joining in. And, once again, the future is just so.... There's so many- there's so much potential, so much possibilities that we're just gonna stay as open as we have been. And hoping that y'all stay with us for the journey. So thank you.

[01:41:57.580] - Samantha

Camille, any ending remarks, shout outs, takeaways?

[01:42:02.580] - Camille

Shout outs to y'all. In my head, I'm up here like, BrownTown!

[01:42:09.990] - Caullen

Gang in this, bitch.

[01:42:13.230] - Camille

Just shout outs to you all for holding space. Also giving us the opportunity to be the host and put you guys in the space where you can be on the other side of the mic. And just share the journey of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. And shout outs to everybody who's out there listening and always donate.

[01:42:39.080] - Caullen

Plug in. I love a plugin. soapboxpo.com/support.

[01:42:43.950] - Samantha

There you go.

[01:42:45.720] - Camille

I'll pass it over to you, Sam, what about you? How you feeling?

[01:42:48.440] - Samantha

Yeah. I feel like there's still so many questions I had. You're right, there could have been a part two. There's so much to get into. The conversations never feel like they're enough. But I'm happy to have been plugged in to a time with the org and the podcast before I came a little bit more- became a little bit more involved with you guys. Thank you for trusting me and Camille for leading this conversation for you guys. Because I was nervous because it is a pretty big milestone that I didn't want to fuck up.

[01:43:20.960] - David

But it was pretty good, right?

[01:43:22.130] - Samantha

Yeah, I think so. And thanks for being fun with the costumes and making this a really nice environment to be in on a very snowy day that no one wants to be back outside in right now. So it made coming down here really inviting and warm and energetic. And I am excited for your future. I feel like I've seen just so much growth in the last few years and I've been excited to be a part of it and excited to lend help in any way that I can as you guys continue to grow. I don't think the 200th episode will come in six years. I think, honestly, I see it in like a year or two with the pace that you guys are going.

[01:44:01.550] - Samantha

So those are my thanks to you. So thank you guys for joining us. And as always, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.

[01:44:09.160] - Camille

Stay tuned, stay turnt. See you for the next one.

[01:44:13.310] - Samantha

There we go.

OUTRO

instrumental Weakest Link by Woozy & GENTA