BrownTown again chops it up with the Hoodoisie fam, co-host Ricardo Gamboa and Executive Director Mia Carbajal for "Whiskey & Watching." The team deconstructs the darling 90's comedy-drama "I Like It Like That" (1994), the first large studio film directed by a Black woman. The film centers around an Afro-Latina woman in the Bronx whose life is turned upside down when her husband is arrested after trying to steal a radio during a blackout. While he's incarcerated, she is forced to find a way to survive and take care of her family. Through that process, she comes into her own power, changing the dynamics of their relationship and that of the whole neighborhood. Originally recorded September 2023.
BrownTown again chops it up with the Hoodoisie fam, co-host Ricardo Gamboa and Executive Director Mia Carbajal for "Whiskey & Watching." The team deconstructs the darling 90's comedy-drama "I Like It Like That" (1994), the first large studio film directed by a Black woman. The film centers around an Afro-Latina woman in the Bronx whose life is turned upside down when her husband is arrested after trying to steal a radio during a blackout. While he's incarcerated, she is forced to find a way to survive and take care of her family. Through that process, she comes into her own power, changing the dynamics of their relationship and that of the whole neighborhood. From the technical cinematic aspects of the film to decolonial politics it offers, the squad explores how femininity and sexuality is presented, the messiness and necessity of restorative practices, the intersections and limits of adultism and masculinity, and framing the hood as a site for capitalist production. Through the complexity of it all, Ricardo reminds us that revolution is attainable in the universe of relationships and we are lucky enough to rehearse what that looks like. Originally recorded September 2023.
Transcriptions available here!
GUESTS
The Hoodoisie (1, 2) is a block-optic, radically politicized, biweekly live news show based in a different gentrifying neighborhood every month. Ricardo and Charles invite artists, activists, comedians, saboteurs, political figures, culture makers, and musical guests to share their experiences, perspectives, and talents. The Hoodoisie gives "the chance for everyday people [particularly queer, working-class, and people of color] to engage in the discourse that shapes their lives that they’re often excluded from.” Imagine if The Daily Show got hijacked by radical POC and queers and they brought along a DJ and a bar...that's the Hoodoisie. Come out for a conversation and follow Hoodoisie on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube! Follow Ricardo on Instagram and Twitter and Mia on Instagram and Twitter!
CREDITS: Intro soundbite and episode photo from I Like It Like That by Pete Rodriguez. Outro music is Try A Little Tenderness by Otis Redding. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles.
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Bourbon ’n BrownTown
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BrownTown again chops it up with the Hoodoisie fam, co-host Ricardo Gamboa and Executive Director Mia Carbajal for "Whiskey & Watching." The team deconstructs the darling 90's comedy-drama "I Like It Like That" (1994), the first large studio film directed by a Black woman. The film centers around an Afro-Latina woman in the Bronx whose life is turned upside down when her husband is arrested after trying to steal a radio during a blackout. While he's incarcerated, she is forced to find a way to survive and take care of her family. Through that process, she comes into her own power, changing the dynamics of their relationship and that of the whole neighborhood. Originally recorded September 2023.
INTRO
Soundbite and episode photo from I Like It Like That by Pete Rodriguez.
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:13.830] - David
So I'd like to welcome everyone to Bourbon 'n BrownTown's 99th episode. It's your boy David, coming to you from the Harambe Studios on this sunny Sunday, September - with my boy Caullen, as always, how you doing, bro?
[00:01:28.110] - Caullen
(Inaudible) is probably, it's not great. I'm doing good. I'm doing decent. I love calling this space the Harambe Studios. It has a name, it's a physical thing now, you know what I mean?
[00:01:37.390] - David
It's complete now. Like, all the walls are not falling off.
[00:01:40.840] - Caullen
Yet. We also have services of putting up soundproofing padding on your new studio. So hit us up at 555- no. We actually have a number now for the office. We're not gonna tell y'all, cause you only call when you need to come through. And we don't trust everybody. Could be ops out here. Timmy from the CIA could be listening and trying to come through. We don't want that.
[00:02:00.390] - David
He probably has our number, though, low key.
[00:02:02.060] - Caullen
That's true. I don't think I asked you, how are you doing?
[00:02:06.620] - David
We're doing well. We're doing fantastic. Kind of like, it's Sunday, so usually I'm off. Or, I've been more consistently where I'm either hanging out with my family, or I'm at the beach. Unfortunately, it's September, so the beaches aren't as active as it was. But naw, we're doing cool, man. The weekend was fantastic for a lot of the reasons, in terms of- shout out to all of our people celebrating Mexican's Independence from Spanish colonizers. But, on the contrary, there was a lot of moments where I was stuck in traffic. But not by my people, but cops not letting me get home. And we'll definitely talk about that later.
[00:02:41.220] - Caullen
So you're saying the cops made a celebration worse?
[00:02:44.280] - David
They made a celebration worse, can you believe it?
[00:02:46.760] - Caullen
That never happens.
[00:02:47.640] - David
Oh, my goodness. But... We're doing... We're doing good. We're doing good. I think. Really excited to be bringing y'all the second part of Whiskey 'n Watching. Featuring the Latinx of the Hoodoisie.
[00:03:02.510] - Ricardo
What's up? I'm Ricardo Gamboa, or *American accent* "Ricardo Gamboa", or Ricky. Or if you're my mom, she's called me just "kid" since I was twelve. She's like, hey kid, why aren't you picking up your phone?
[00:03:14.630] - David
I mean, for real.
[00:03:16.010] - Caullen
Why is she a motivational speaker on a Gatorade commercial all of a sudden?
[00:03:19.330] - Ricardo
She just- she talks like she's coaching football in prison. She's an Aries, she grew up across the street from county. So she- on 24th and California, so she's got like, a rough energy to her.
[00:03:27.480] - Caullen
That actually makes so much sense for how you just did that. Thank you for the context.
[00:03:33.640] - Ricardo
But, yeah, I'm doing good. I'm the founder and creator- they're the same thing. I'm the founder of the Hoodoisie. And then also a co-host and part of the executive team there.
[00:03:48.820] - Mia
How do I follow that up? But anyway, hi, beautiful people. Thank you, Caullen and David, for having us here. I'm Mia Carbajal, also on the executive team of the Hoodoisie. And for those who don't know, we are a radical underground news show featuring block-optic perspectives and culture and activism here in Chicago and throughout the Americas. Just wrapped up our season, so have some spaciousness to get into this conversation with y'all.
[00:04:16.340] - Caullen
It's a celebration.
[00:04:18.260] - David
Facts, facts and facts. And for folks who are unfamiliar, please check out the first Whiskey 'n Watching episode that we did where we looked at Everywhere, Everything All At Once, so definitely check that out. But here for today, in honor of our heritage month, maybe, I don't know, we kind of talked about it. We like- it's a very interesting process now and how we determine what movies we're watching. But today we're going to be discussing I Like It Like That from 1994. And Ricky, for the peoples, could you give a little synopsis of the film?
[00:04:50.020] - Ricardo
Yes. I Like It Like That is a film that came out in 1994, it was the first film- first big studio film ever produced, written, and directed by a Black woman- Darnell Martin. And it centers Lisette Linares, who's an Afro-Latina in the Bronx, who life is turned upside down when her husband is arrested after trying to rob a radio during a blackout.
[00:05:17.860] - Mia
They're in New York.
[00:05:18.870] - Ricardo
They're in New York. And so she has to kind of find a way to survive and take care of her family while he's incarcerated. And through that process comes into her own power, explores her own kind of femininity, sexuality and resilience. But I think also the film touches on all sorts of issues, from family to the effects of incarceration to the 90s drug wars in New York. As well as other cultural questions like colorism, there's even the hints of gentrification and cultural gentrification that are happening out in there. And, yeah. So I'll stop right there. Does that sound that sound accurate?
[00:06:09.740]
[crosstalk 00:06:10]
[00:06:10.940] - Caullen
We copy and pasted the IMDB and the Wiki. These are fine, they're kind of weird, I don't know.
[00:06:12.140] - David
They don't do it justice.
[00:06:18.440] - Ricardo
I mean, I would say that's the story of this film. It's like, the film has never been done justice. Whether it's the descriptions or even if you look at the reviews of that time. When it premiered, it received a lot of mixed reviews where, you watch it now, and I'm like, this shit was ahead of its fucking time, like no other. And not even just in terms of content, but even directorially, I think it's kind of like the aesthetics and the formal direction of the film is kind of fucking brilliant.
[00:06:45.180] - Caullen
Yeah, I think that's a- I mean, all those points are great. I think about the behind the scenes of who's making the decisions, who's directing, who's the sound recordist, who's, like... All that matters, right? Not only in how folks look at their experience, but their ideology. And the fact that that's the majority of the cast making this project, I think that travels through fields, through disciplines. It's not just the Black or Brown or trans or marginalized identity faced, but also they're like, in that experience. And for hinting towards things to be better for everybody. And that ideology being there. Like, again, I said this before, Clarence Thomas exists. So, like, you gotta do more than just show up with a Black face, you know what I mean?
[00:07:26.780] - David
And so for myself, this is my first time watching the film. If y'all couldn't tell, Ricardo's clearly seen the film a couple times.
[00:07:33.180] - Caullen
I believe 27 is what Charles said.
[00:07:36.380] - Ricardo
Charles is just being a hater.
[00:07:39.780] - David
But for me, watching this film, the relevance of it's time- it's definitely a timeless film, I guess is what I'm trying to get at. And so I was really excited. I was watching with my partner and they're not very interested in a lot of the films sometimes that- whatever, but she watched the entire thing. I saw a tear, and I was like, okay, cool, this clearly it did its job.
[00:08:02.110] - David
I can truly say that I would have not known that it was made in 1994 if someone hadn't told me. Just plain and simple. I think the first scene that we get into it, it's like, it's one long ass scene, right? And we're just tossed into this street in which our main characters live and survive. And you're just- you see a little bit of everything. And I think it did so well of telling us the history of those streets of New York. You know, I'm from Chicago, so I can't speak to New York, but if I had to assume, I think it did a pretty good job. And so I don't know. Go ahead, Caullen.
[00:08:37.190] - Caullen
I'd add on that. I think, 1) we've made a good job of doing this in previous episodes. It was my first time watching it. I watched it about, what, 90 minutes ago I finished the film? When media and culture, cultural artifacts hit us in our development- not that it's ever stopped. Still as adults were developing and learning things. I think what really, really matters too is me looking at this film- I'm curious how it hits everyone in this room. Watching this film an hour ago or 90 minutes ago, and seeing all the things. And then hearing the chatter in the group chat from everyone here, plus Charles about it and being like, okay, I'm kind of primed, I kind of want to not look at what they said and just watch and see how it feels. It was fucking dope.
[00:09:18.000] - Caullen
I really enjoyed all the layers we're gonna bring into it on the macro level, or just the relationships themselves and how sometimes just people fighting with their partner. It's like, everyone's been through that. Everyone knows what that looks like. And it's different stages of that? And then this is a totally different bucket- but you mentioned, oh, I wasn't sure it was New York. I was like, I knew it was 90s New York. And obviously from watching movies a lot, and I think... the way it did this, and other films, even music does this, and documentaries especially, texturize the environment of when you are and where you are. At the time, it's a "current film," right? And so then they're just like, we're just documenting the environment. But knowing it's important for viewers, maybe especially viewers who don't live in this community, to see everyone out in the street on a hot summer day, it's just kind of how it is. It's important to see these textures that aren't character driving, or driving the plot. Which, like, you hear in writing, those are two things, if it's not cut it out. It's not doing those things, but it's giving you a texture of the environment so that the viewer, the listener can be there; and then the story unfolds, because that's just as important as the characters are.
[00:10:22.910] - Ricardo
Yeah. What I love about you saying that is because that idea of, if it's not character driven or plot driven, and we just should cut it. It's like, it's actually a very efficiency notion of storytelling that is kind of rooted in capitalism and these ideas of what makes a good commercial film. And like, what do we need? Whereas for me, what I think is so awesome about that opening scene is it introduces space and place as a character. And the texture that it adds is kind of emotional. It's like, popping, it's vibrant.
[00:10:55.560] - Ricardo
And then it speaks to- it's nonlinear. It's very kind of chaotic. And I've never seen anything... To me, I've never- I've seen very few films that actually capture the experience of what it's like growing up and being a person of color, growing up like that urban environment, or on the block. And I feel like- and I say that because so much when it comes to the work of people of color, we're like, oh, yeah, the representation is amazing, that story. But I'm like, no, this bitch could fucking direct! That opening scene itself is like- aside from Raising Victor Vargas in 2003 and some of Spike Lee's work, I have never seen anyone capture the feel of living in a city and being a person of color and living in a neighborhood like that, like this film has.
[00:11:43.500] - Mia
Yeah. And I know that we're gonna get a little bit into how this movie's so iconic from a Latine perspective. But I think what I love about it is how it's a commentary on the chaos of urban poverty; and what it feels like to be in that feeling. And I think for those of us that have lived in those kinds of experiences, experienced the block in that way, so much of the movie, as it develops, is the decisions that people have to make under really chaotic conditions. And when you have so much noise... Like the neighbor that's beating the broom up to get your kids to calm down, to your kids screaming, to your boys in the background sort of judging your every move and all that, you can't really make coherent, clear decisions because you're just in the survival and the thick of it. And I just think that- even to this day, I just appreciate the movie because it's such a great commentary on that specific class experience. Without even trying to be it, it's just generally just capturing what it means. Not caring if it comes off problematic. Not caring- it's just like, no, this is really what it is.
[00:12:45.790] - Ricardo
And, I think to that point, too, is that aside- like, in the nineties, when we had this explosion of people of color, Black and Brown cinema, it was always like, here's the tragic ending of what it means to be Black and in the city. To be Brown and in the city, right? [inaudible 00:13:00] And, you know what I'm saying? It was like, everything was like, Boyz n the Hood, they're gonna die at the end. They're gonna die. Someone's gonna, right? Yeah.
[00:13:08.000]
[sound clip from Boyz n the Hood]
[00:13:09.500] - Ricardo
And so what I love about I Like It Like That is, yeah, it'll talk about those harsh realities, but it also talks about the chaos, but also the celebration of, and the community that gathers because of that same chaos.
[00:13:22.740] - Mia
Exactly.
[00:13:23.360] - Ricardo
And in hopeful and positive and redemptive ways, too. Boyyyy, don't get me started on this movie!
[00:13:31.160] - Caullen
We warned y'all.
[00:13:32.280] - Ricardo
It is Her-spanic Heritage month. Their-spanic Heritage month *laughing*
[00:13:38.200] - David
I think, you know, I definitely... And it's just so, to me, when watching film, it's also the accessibility of people. And so, sharing this film with my partner, who's undocumented. From Mexico, right. They also have never been in New York. But they was able to have so many connections on emotional levels. Whether that's the relationship between the father and the son, or the mother and the son. And even the mother and the daughter is also, like, has a little.. And then the- it's just so... It was just so well done. And what I was surprised is on.. The film is about 2 hours, but in the time of the world, I assumed that we were gonna be there for longer than we were. I think we were there for really, like- so he's in jail, he's a couple days; in real life, we're like two weeks? Maybe three weeks of a timeline within the film. And I just... I was... I don't know, I liked it.
[00:14:29.440] - Caullen
Did you like it like that? *laughing*
[00:14:33.840] - David
That was definitely something that you catch on. And something that I just want to, like, you know, I really appreciate you saying Mia, because I'm thinking about making the decisions on hard times. And one of my things was, I was like, I'm glad, man took that bail money out and said, you know what? Yeah, fuck it, I'll take his money- you know, I got to get out of here. I don't want to be here. I'm tormented. Sure, imma lie and say, yes, that's mine. Get me the fuck out.
[00:14:57.160] - Mia
And that's such a Latino thing, too, right? Where you have this- I think he was Cuban, father- No, the whole part of, I will bail you out if you give my daughter's son your last name. Because the last name is everything, otherwise, it's like, you don't know who the kid's dad is. And it's funny that y'all are saying that it's so ahead of its time. I definitely agree with that. But as I was watching the film, I was watching it with my partner's sister, and she said a comment of like, God, we've come so far. And I think it comes, because there's a big theme in the show, is they slut shame Magdalena. Which, I can't stand her, but the whole time they're slut shaming her, at one point, they're saying that the baby's last name could be 177th Street or something like that. You know what I mean?
[00:15:38.890] - Caullen
Martinez? [crosstalk 00:15:39]
[00:15:40.810] - Ricardo
But even that was- I feel like, even they were- I feel like the film was actually commenting on slut shaming itself a little bit. As opposed to just reinforcing it, there's a way in which, the moment- there's these very redemptive moments for that character, you know what I mean? And very kind of a critique on that type of masculinity that will kind of enjoy a woman, but then also slut shame her. That kind of, like- and the double standard. Because someone like Chino is hailed for being a player, for being able to fuck longer than an hour. You know, all this.
[00:16:16.240] - Caullen
He's timing himself...
[00:16:17.940] - Mia
His boys are timing him outside, too!
[00:16:20.460] - Caullen
Chino in 2023 has an Apple watch, he knows all the metrics. He's watching that screen, it's like the Matrix when he's having sex. Like, bro..
[00:16:27.270] - Ricardo
He's like, it's the equivalent of 2,000 steps what I just did right there! *laughing*
[00:16:33.910] - Caullen
I'm glad you brought up the slut shaming Magdalena's character and what she represents in general. And not to separate from her too much, but his fucking friends, I could not stand them. But I kind of appreciated- it almost seemed intentional for how one dimensional they were. They're just kind of caricatures, but almost the point where you're like, oh, they're supposed to be. They just always pop up, and there's always three of them; they're never alone, it's always a bunch of them. And they're always just adding on, or just making Chino's life worse. I'm like, those are your friends, bro?? You know what I mean?
[00:17:06.930] - Mia
Well, it's interesting because they are one dimensional, but I honestly feel like in the film, at least for me, they- to me- they're propped there to make him look good in a sense. Because you have these guys who are running away from being fathers, from any accountability, who just spend their time on the block. And Chino, who is very imperfect, and maybe not necessarily the standard of what you would want in a partner or what Lisette would want in a partner, but he has a job. He takes care of all his three kids. And there's that moment that he tells... I think it's his friend Angel of like, y'all think this is the worst thing that could happen to you, that this is the worst thing a broad could give you. Like, he says something like that. And I felt like, for hood politics, that's refreshing. Like, that is kind of.. There's a refreshing aspect to Chino that makes him kind of refreshing. But you have to remember, it's like, when you're at that- when you're at a certain level and how you're experiencing relationships and dynamics. So I honestly feel like the friends are there to prop him up as this catch that Magdalena and Lisette are sort of struggling for. Yeah.
[00:18:11.630] - Ricardo
But also, I mean, I think that's really notable too. Because what you discover in the film is Magdalena, right, who's like the bodegas store owner's daughter who has a baby that is possibly Chino's baby. And it actually ends up being-
[00:18:28.570] - Caullen
His boy!
[00:18:29.490] - Ricardo
His boy's baby. But also-
[00:18:31.220] - David
Spoilers all throughout.
[00:18:33.490] - Caullen
They'll read it in the description.
[00:18:37.330] - Ricardo
Oh shit, should I not? Should I? I just wanted to-
[00:18:37.600] - Caullen
Naw, tell it all.
[00:18:37.740] - Ricardo
I want people to follow the-
[00:18:38.870] - Caullen
personal responsibility, it's not on the list. We'll get to the welfare state in a second.
[00:18:42.290] - Ricardo
But the- Angel and Magdalena, even that name choice, right? Like, Mary Magdalene and you know. And then who is the, in the Bible, who's either- depending on what you're reading.
[00:18:55.440] - Caullen
Uh, King James version one.
[00:18:58.180] - Ricardo
It's this sex worker character. But also has this virtue to her. And then, you have Angel, which is also a religious resonance. It carries religious resonance. And he's kind of like this fallen man, right. He's just smoking, drinking, you know what I mean? In his own fucking crib, and not owning up to his own responsibilities or taking accountability for his actions in the community. And so I even think that type of name choice isn't just happenstance, but actually really intentional. And then when you apply that to the way in which the nineties women were slut shamed, right? Like, welfare queens, these babies- especially women of color, they're just popping out babies, right? And then, same thing with men; they're abandoned- there are fathers that abandon their kids all the time. It actually is adding a different type of depth and pathos, and bucking up against those type of stereotypes by being like, this is actually who these people are beyond those stereotypes that I thought was really cool and add a really cool slice to that film.
[00:19:59.940] - Caullen
And that this is humanity. We love people. We hate people. We have children with people, make families. We create what that structure can look like. This idea that, oh, these people are doing this, #### babies, something like that. Like, no, this is what we do as people.
[00:20:14.760] - Ricardo
That's what I love about this film, too. It's the movie that activists would want to make, but they would never make because it's too messy, right? Kind of all the characters have.... For me, I teach this as one of the first instances of intersectional cinema in modern US cinema. Because we actually don't see movies like this up until very recently, where there's trans characters, where there's Black and Brown characters, where they're addressing a range of issues from mass incarceration and the prison industrial complex to women of color feminism, to... We actually don't- and the cast of characters. It's so broad, but at the same time, it doesn't actually fold neatly.
[00:21:00.030] - Ricardo
Even the ending, it doesn't fold necessarily neatly into any kind of prescriptive narratives that dominates so much activist, social justice, socially charged kind of cinema that we're seeing right now. Because they're so, like, well, no, this is what it is, and we can't represent people like this, and.... You know what I mean? And it's like, nah, actually, let's represent all this in its problems and its potentials, in its kind of pitfalls, and with a lot of love and compassion, too. And I thought that shit- I was like, oh, this is my fucking movie.
[00:21:27.980] - David
And it's healing. There's the journey for the healing, I think is the most- one of the pieces we appreciate. Because every character, in their small moments, are allowed and given that moment to find themselves in; whether that's their story or the story in general. And I just appreciate the naming of the two characters because that hadn't even hit me. But, Mia, you had something?
[00:21:51.730] - Mia
No, I just appreciate that because to your point, Ricky, I feel like so often with what we call, activist media, it is really moralistic. Like, good, bad, problematic, pure. We see so much of current media struggling but trying to figure out how to do things authentically, and sit in the messiness so that it's like a mirror that you can observe. And that's what I feel like I Like It Like That is. For the hood urban experience it brings up a mirror of like, oh, this is us. We're messy, we slut shame, and we misgender when we're mad, and- you know what I mean? There's things that are happening in that movie that you're like, we do this shit? And when you realize that you have that mirror, you can actually do introspection and self-correct and heal; as opposed to propping up this idealistic version of what this experience is, which isn't really true and grounded. It's just you, as a writer or as a director, are being self-conscious and don't want to make it problematic. I Like It Like That would never exist in these times.
[00:22:48.430] - Ricardo
And also that it's alienating, right? I have a lot of family members that when they watch activist-y media, they're like, biiitch. You know what I mean? They're like *laughing*
[00:22:57.030] - Caullen
I'm very curious, when you see activist-y media, you can name names, I know you can do that, but, what... what would they see as an example they'd be like, ah, this is like?
[00:23:04.790] - Ricardo
I mean, I think a lot of work right now. Even like, what's that one Netflix show, the Grand Army Central? You know what I mean? It's kind of like a Degrassi on steroids with- infused with woke ideology. Like, the characters literally speak like, no, please, you're taking up too much space. But it's supposed to be like, the hood in Brooklyn, you know what I mean?
[00:23:24.890] - Ricardo
But I think it's all over a lot of, I would say, media that's coming out from liberal to progressive and even radical. Because we think radical means just being more right, when I think radical means having more awareness and having a larger bandwidth of understanding. Which I think this film does have. And then- but I think a lot of kind of POC cinema, POC kind of entertainment is very careful. And it's very kind of, I would like to echo Mia, moralistic. And I'm like, that's not- that's called didacticism, and that's reproducing the same kind of- that's reproducing a colonial logic of, I know, and I know better. And you can consume this knowledge and subscribe to it, or you're wrong, right? That's a civilizing project. And so I don't think a "civilizing" project, and I put civilizing in quotations, is any better when activists or people of color are authoring it.
[00:24:27.460] - Caullen
It's almost like more- hesitant to say this, but dangerous in a different way in that some of the still monumental gatekeepers: white folks in institutions, especially, "liberal white folks" who like, oh, they're doing what I want to do, but it's a Black face, so they'll accept it more; "I'll give it the awards," give it the things here and there. So, it's gonna have more legs. It's gonna go-
[00:24:51.710] - Ricardo
You wanna talk about Steppenwolf theater- or the Tribune giving Willie Wilson a regular spot on their editorial page? Just say that, Caullen. *laughing.
[00:25:01.700] - Caullen
There's a lot of things I don't like about you, Ricardo. But one thing I love, I will say, is that you will name the names. Folks have names and addresses. We know what's happening.
[00:25:16.170] - Ricardo
People think that that's because I'm principled and unafraid, it's just because I'm a faggot and I love drama.
[00:25:22.060] - Caullen
So what's my excuse? Kinda to your point as far as colonialism, that colonial logic, that's- oh, white liberals or heads of these institutions are like, that's what they're naming and that's what they want? Okay, we need to cater towards that. It's like, no, be messy, but they're still- you can write... you can get all the things you want to do with making it human. And we had an episode before, Justin Stillmaker, he's a Creative Director, he does all these things, he was talking about films that have the agenda first and the script comes second. No, make the script, make it about real things. That critique of systems will come if you're making right relationships. All violence is state violence, you can do that while making a good story and then all that stuff will be there.
[00:26:01.360] - Ricardo
Or if you just- this is one of the first films that I saw, and even now when I- because I always, when I watch it, put myself in a position of the ignorant viewer, or the person that hasn't seen it. Where I still don't know if she's gonna end up with him at the end or not. You know what I mean? Whereas in a lot of films I see the message coming a mile- coming a mile away of like, this is going to be a female empowerment tale where she doesn't need anybody. Or this is going to fold into some type of hetero-patriarchal couple, exaltation of coupledom and of the incomplete individual that doesn't have romantic love in their life.
[00:26:40.000] - Ricardo
And this actually creates a third space. In the film's finale where it is about, as human beings, we do need love, we do need understanding, we do need to forgive, right? It's actually a womanist of color politics that's kind of at play there, where he's actually- she's able to extend the understanding that he himself is kind of marred by toxic masculinity. And he's able to understand that she herself is an agent of power who him, in his own insecurities and adherence to this toxic notion, is harming her. And it's inconsiderate, even, even ignorantly. And so, they both leave with these higher levels of awareness; and whatever relationship they pursue from there, we know it's going to be not the one that we saw in the beginning, and it's going to have a different kind of depth.
[00:27:31.160] - Ricardo
And I think for me- but we don't necessarily know. You have those ending credits and stuff like that, but, where it leaves us is a space of, we don't need to put the period on there for you, we can leave this at an ellipses. And there's something about that refusal of certainty that creates the space for the viewer to learn and to internalize and to see. As opposed to being like, damn, I'm this fucked up dude. Or like, yes, I'm this bad bitch, right? It kind of short circuits those type of dichotomies. And so, I think that's the thing is, it's non-didactic in a lot of ways. And when it is trying to slip a message, it's still with a "hmm". As opposed to a "huh". You know what I mean?
[00:28:14.470] - Caullen
A Rick Ross "HUH"
[00:28:17.430] - Mia
And the song at the end, I think is a great choice for that too. The "Try A Little Tenderness" by Otis Redding, which is remade by the Mendes brothers. Otis- that movie, by the way, watching it as a teen made me an Otis Redding fan.
[00:28:32.810] - Caullen
Yeah.
[00:28:34.420] - Mia
I just think the lyrics of that song, which is about like, see the woman for more than just, oh, she's giving you a hard time and she's nagging you. She's weary. She's been wearing the same dress. She's tired, she's working. Try a little tenderness. It just really captures the dynamic in their relationship so beautifully.
[00:28:55.680] - Ricardo
I'm a big Fanonian reader and scholar. If anyone knows this, Franz Fanon is my fucking jam. And so in Black Skin, White Masks, one of the things he says, I think it's on page fucking eleven, is that being a colonized subject- And he's talking about, usually in his work, North Africans and just Black people in general, but that it's a zone of non-being. But what he really says is, you're denied love and understanding. So even when you look at Black Skin, White Masks, the chapters are actually relationships. The Black man with the white woman, the white woman with the Black man. You know what I mean? Or the Black woman with the white man. He's inhabiting those spaces.
[00:29:35.310] - Ricardo
And so, for me, what you- "Try A Little Tenderness" is how us in the hood, which are- or the ghetto- is really what they were calling them in the nineties; and that term dates back to colonization. It's kind of how that colonial violence gets reproduced in how we treat each other, because if we've never been afforded love and understanding, how can we give it to somebody else?And so to me, when I hear "Try A Little Tenderness" as the flagship song and the theme of- the overarching theme of the movie, it's actually an anti-colonial film that's steeped in radical Black, Brown, decolonial fucking politics. And to me, I'm like, oh, this shit is like- I've got chills right now just... I talked myself into chills. That's either really narcissistic or- *laughing*
[00:30:21.620] - Mia
Caullen, you were gonna say something about the song?
[00:30:24.310] - Caullen
Well, yeah. The song hit me kind of as a- not even a critique, an offer to masculinity to, not only be better, but be more holistic and actually achieve what you want to, in a weird way- I'll get to that in a second. But also, I was thinking about it as- I think I was primed because the group chat chatter of like, abolition, and what that looks like. And I feel like, oh, this is in the context, in the double whammy that this song is. But it's like, what the song is in it of itself apart from the movie. Then on top of the movie and what it's trying to do in all these different ways was kind of abolitionist in the abolitionist presence kind of way. And the front end, with the masculinity critique, I think just what they said when it's... What's the main character's name?
[00:31:08.900] - Mia
Chino and Lisette.
[00:31:10.180] - Caullen
Lisette. 90 minutes ago, y'all, I just saw a movie. Lisette and her boss, which there's a history there that encodes a lot of, and then they're talking to- He's this white guy from Manhattan, whatever, pitching what the video should be and what it should represent. They're talking back and forth and sharing these ideas. And I was like, oh, this is actually really good. Oh, Lisette's idea about sampling this song specifically for this video, and change their image to make it be more dynamic as far as having songs for the ladies but we can #### the men. But also giving men some advice if they seek partnership with a woman. That all there at the same time, all those layers of the song itself in the movie.
[00:31:50.770] - Caullen
And then with... we see conflict in so many ways in this film. On the macro level, him being locked up after a blackout from stealing whatever- not a tv, but a stereo or something. Yeah. Not that serious. They don't really care. And he's apart from his family for so long. We see this entire film literally enveloped because of this inciting incident. And we see him and his son have conflict, which we'll get to. Conflict in all these different ways and how they go through and navigate that and the messiness and heal some of it, and some of it's still a question mark. And this song is like, try a little tenderness.
[00:32:29.380] - Caullen
1) tenderness, care, understanding is wrapped up in that word. But also, try. And I feel like when we discuss abolition, I think amongst ourselves and to the world of folks who don't call themselves abolitionists, the idea of experimentation. You know what I mean? Like, we know all the reasons why the current system, the carceral logic, fails. We know that. Even though some of it's in us, even though some of us are unlearning, we know all that. And the question is always internally and externally, what is next? What's the alternative? Whatever. Whatever. And we have answers for that. And then some of it's just like, I don't know, what do you think it is? Let's try it. So it's not "do" tenderness. That's not the song. It's "try" a little tenderness. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work and we'll figure something else out.
[00:33:13.000] - Mia
I love that you're evoking these sort of themes of what does restoration look like? The abolitionist framework- bringing that into it. Because we saw them model a restorative process for after you cheat. He was like, can you just write down everything you did with that guy; and I'm gonna write down everything I did with Magdalena, and we just gonna exchange to see if we can live with it. And I just thought that level of transparency- he literally named this is the restorative process that I need. And she was like, okay... And, you know, I mean his list was hella long. *laughing*. Which couldn't be me. I was like, girl... But, you know, but I appreciate that they're modeling something, you know what I mean? It's powerful.
[00:33:52.800] - Ricardo
And also, we talk so much about abolition as the systemic thing and as this- but it's actually really a very intimate thing, too. And so I think when we see that it exists intimately, at this level, there's something that we can glean from it for those larger processes when we try to endeavor it. Or at the very least, again, try a little tenderness amongst ourselves, right? You know what I mean?
[00:34:21.710] - Caullen
I needed to see this a couple years ago.
[00:34:25.010] - David
Yeah, no, it was wild. And I mean... And it's so interesting because, as film, you use music to engage the audience. But what I really appreciated was how the characters themselves use music to soothe their own souls. I think it was so interesting because it was like, okay, well, I think the story did a good job of giving us this micro example of like, here's this dude trying to bust his ass trying to do some shit. And his girl's like this, that, the fifth. You got kids being rowdy, whatever, whatever, they break some shit, all pissed off. And the way they call our boy "The Layaway King." So clearly he's this dude who's just trying to get some shit done. And here's this girl like, yo, you ain't gonna get me my radio- and the friends are telling her the same shit too. So she's like nagging, nagging, nagging. So I think the man trying to get the radio was very important for him because he wouldn't have done it if he didn't need it. You feel what I'm saying? He wouldn't have gone and tried- cause he also saw other people were doing it.
[00:35:15.690] - David
To kind of bring into the scene, she gets home, the kids are like- the child is very, very angry about like, yo, where's my dad? Where's my dad? So you have the cast- And then you have the wonderful character of the mother in law.
[00:35:30.440] - Mia
Rita Moreno.
[00:35:31.420] - David
Who, I aka'd her, The Devil. Just like, that's the devil. Especially when she's giving him two choices in jail. I'm like, yo, devil, get off me, bruh. And so-
[00:35:40.410] - Ricardo
Yeah, you're right, I never thought of it.
[00:35:41.480] - David
In this chaos, she's trying to do her thing; she closes herself in the bathroom, turns on the music, loud as shit, and just loses herself.
[00:35:49.060]
[sound clip from movie]
[00:36:07.750] - Caullen
I like that scene so much. Everything you just said, as far as what it actually means in terms of the film. And this is one of the first times we're like, oh, if we see Chino again, unless it flashes forward a million years, he's gonna be incarcerated. So we're gonna be with- I guess in theory you're like, oh, I'm gonna be with Lisette for a while.
[00:36:24.290] - Caullen
But I think, for me, just watching it and trying to look at it through all these different lenses, but one lens being filmmaking. Was that a good shot? Was that a good- like, why are they doing these things and stuff? It felt like a play, in the best way, in that it let actors act. But then- I don't wanna say "no shade to Woody Allen," but lots of shade to Woody Allen, actually- it wasn't just sitting the camera somewhere and letting people just act. It was like, the camera choices were intentional. You kind of moved up the scene. It came closer when things were important. It came wider when we needed to see everything. It cut in when they really had to cut in, it wasn't like a boilerplate editing template type thing. They didn't use a TikTok reel template, you know what I mean? So it was cool just seeing it as that.
[00:37:07.490] - Caullen
And I think, for me, someone who's been born and raised in the midwest, been in Chicago the past 14 years or so. Whenever I- when I think of an urban environment, it's always New York. Just cause of the plays and the movies I'd seen growing up, mainly. And then it's also, it's just in a play kind of framework. And so I can see the fire escapes, all the things. And so I think I'm primed to think of that, too, so maybe that's a bias or something. But it was cool just to see the texture of where we are, and we knew that really well; but it's like, the camera work, know that was the goal, and do that as well. And just live with folks and let them act, but also, be a smart director. To your point, Ricardo, and actually make those decisions that feel good for what the scene meant in terms of the story of the scene, the structure, but also how that scene added to the entirety of the film.
[00:37:59.940] - David
And it was so layered. One would say like, oh, that was like, one of five climaxes. [crosstalk 00:37:09] The film was so poetic in that it allowed us romance in these moments of turmoil and it allowed us moments of peace in those moments of cast, and that's where, I think, music was such a wonderful instrument in tying the two together. And I think I just appreciated the characters romance to the music, as I think a lot of our people are, you know.
[00:38:30.090] - Caullen
Yeah. And just the shout out to the sound design, the sound mixing, as well as the score. Just because, on almost different reasons, but the sound mix- I just, again, it felt like I was there. And I mentioned when I watched the film, many times in this episode so far, but I was coming from the North Side of Chicago, coming out to the South Loop and watching on my phone for probably a little under half of it. And so part of it's like, I have my headphones in, I'm watching it. I'm [inaudible 00:38:54], I'm into it, but I'm on the fucking train. And so people are being noisy there. Then I'm seeing her just being stressed out because all the #### are alive, and the kids are being loud, and the neighbor- and I'm like, she just can't get some fucking space. And I'm like, also, I feel this in my bones. My blood pressure is rising!
[00:39:10.890] - David
Alexis is her space. We haven't talked about Alexis yet.
[00:39:12.230] - Mia
Oh, we have not talked about Alexis.
[00:39:12.870] - David
She does get space.
[00:39:14.610] - Caullen
But in the scene you're naming, I think it's very, very important. I think the first big plot point after the inciting incident is that scene. But then also with that, she does find joy in her little microcosm of the broom, right. The sound drives it up for the audience. And then- a separate point a little bit- but with the score and the songs you hear, sometimes they're really, really tense moments and you hear a little *sound effect* and it's like, fun and bubbly. And you're like, wait, this feels jarring, it doesn't fit. But, oh, no, it does fit, cause this is like... this is how it fucking is. And I got that maybe three different moments in the film, which I can't really name them. But I just felt like it was- the score was paradoxical for the lay eyes and ears to see with the film. But it just fit in a certain way that made it like, hey, this is life. It was kind of like, ah! It was all a big struggle. Like, this is how it is, sometimes it's messy. The comedy and the drama was very much happening at the same time versus going back and forth.
[00:40:09.570] - David
I appreciate the discography. It was a good blend of hip hop, Latinos...
[00:40:15.850] - Mia
The salsa. I mean, it was so nineties. Like, salsa.
[00:40:18.630] - Ricardo
But also the lamination of those things, right? For me, when I think about- one of the things was like, my parents- I grew up in a big ass Mexican family on the South Side of Chicago. We have family parties all the fucking time for every fucking excuse that we can have one, we'll have one, right? And they'll go to late as hell. And it's really weird cause at 2:00 a.m., I know- Or, after midnight, I know it's gonna be a little bit of ranchera and a whole lot of fucking Motown.
[00:40:47.400] - Ricardo
And it's like... And the idea that people don't know. Even my play, The Wizards that premiered and had an entire sold out run on the South Side of Chicago- *laughing in humble*. It's about Mexican-American, like, high school. The first Act is about Mexican-American high schoolers that have a Motown cover band in the seventies. And there'd be Black people that come up to me, like, damn, Mexicans listen to Motown? I'm like, yo, it's my parents shit. I grew up with like, Delfonics, Temptations, all of those things. And it makes sense, because you have these diasporic populations that come to the US and they're not gonna identify with this white, like, *imitation* type of music, right?
[00:41:25.050] - Caullen
Wait, which song?
[00:41:26.630] - Ricardo
You know what I mean? It's all like, *imitates* like that bubble gummy type of 1950s type of pop. They're gonna identify with another racialized, urban, marginalized population that is screaming and crooning about love and longing and these other things as well that they want. So, to me, that type of- seeing the way, also, it blurs those lines or sees the cultural synergy and exchange and the interplay that's between those things, to me is really fucking cool. And we don't see that a lot in cinema because, as much as we claim things a lot more- we're like, this is Brown, this is Black. And part of that's because the sedimentation of things and part of that's because of the way there's been so much Black erasure, right? Like, things like that. But I love when stuff, again, is willing to get into the messiness and look at the hybridity of stuff in a way that doesn't reduce either... or take anything away from either. I thought that shit was cool as hell about the film.
[00:42:22.300] - Mia
Yeah. I honestly wanna say that that is representation. Like, it's Otis Redding and Jerry Rivera. It's both. You know what I mean?
[00:42:29.550] - David
Marc Anthony and Fat Joe.
[00:42:30.720] - Mia
Exactly! Like, exactly!
[00:42:34.490] - Mia
Yeah, no, I really love that feature too. I love that Jerry Rivera's in it. And for those that don't know, the artist that she's dressing up like, he was a nineties icon in the Salsa scene. And I just loved how she dressed him up cause she's like, the fine man uniform is: you gotta have a gold chain, some kind of jersey throwback, you know? She's dressing him in the vision of Chino, which is so funny and creative.
[00:42:55.860] - Ricardo
But also, that it's like- but it also plays with that idea of the way capitalism draw- and commercialism draw some these notions of authenticity that then they dress up these, like- you know what I mean? Like, the way the hood is a space for extraction for capitalist productivity and for the fantasies that the machine puts out there. Like, to me, that's what I got out of there. And then again, right, that Black woman's work, and the work of women of color is eclipsed and erased because of the white guy that's running shit, or because of the dude that's running shit, right?
[00:43:28.660] - Caullen
And they present it in a way that's not- it's obvious, but it's not heavy handed.
[00:43:33.060] - Ricardo
Yeah.
[00:43:33.340] - Mia
So we gonna talk about Alexis?
[00:43:34.580] - Ricardo
Wait. Before we do, can someone pass me some more of that whisk-kay?
[00:43:37.540] - Caullen
We're not cutting that. I feel like folks forget that, like, we're drinking during this podcast.
[00:43:42.080] - David
But, Mia, for our lay people, can you give us a little introduction to Alexis?
[00:43:47.480] - Mia
Okay, so Alexis is, I want to say, the supporting character of the show. I mean, the show, of the movie. Lisette's sister, who is a trans woman in the process of transitioning. Getting- saving up for her trans-affirming operation. Who has been... cast out by her family. We see a lot of those dynamics and parallels between Alexis's experience in addition to Lisette's children, as they're navigating feelings of rejection or negligence from their parents, et cetera. And she's just really there- she owns a bodega- oh, a botanica. So she's like this trans Bruja Boricua, just gorgeous, fierce, powerhouse who is always-
[00:44:38.748] - David
Lives downstairs.
[00:44:38.910] - Mia
who lives downstairs. She lives downstairs in the building. And she's like- you know, Chino gets locked up and she's like, girl, you gotta forget about him. Don't play his number. I mean, the whole scene in the bathroom of her is her trying to decide, do I use my $5 for bus fare to get a job? Or play Chino's number?
[00:44:57.000] - David
Mia said it at the beginning. It's decisions at the spur of the moment.
[00:44:59.850] - Mia
Exactly. And so Alexis is there, but she's also kind of messy. Cause then when Chino's numbers get called she's like, I told you you should've played that number. So she's a lot. And she has her own- she has this admiration for her own mother, her femininity and how she asserts herself. And just trying to feel belonging and while also feeling like, my sister is making messy decisions and it's having impact on the children that I can relate to.
[00:45:28.040] - Ricardo
Yeah. And what I love, too, is it just undoes these ideas of even transitioning. Right? Actually, at no point are you- you're like, oh, this is a bad bitch. And she doesn't have that operation. You know what I mean? And then I think part of it too is like, super fucking- the way that Dino- fucking unsettles these ideas of essential notions of gender and biology, because Lisette has small titties.
[00:45:59.570] - Caullen
And they make it a point throughout the whole film.
[00:46:02.460] - David
Fucking stop. Even her own man in front of everybody, torturing her. I'm like, bro what the fuck's wrong with you dog?!
[00:46:08.060] - Caullen
Yeah, they make it a point throughout the film about Lisette's body. And it's... Sometimes I'm like, oh, is that how the nineties just were? In 94? I was four years old, but I'm like, oh, no this is an intentional choice about body, about biology, about transition.
[00:46:19.620] - Ricardo
And it's still like that. You know what I mean?
[00:46:23.260] - Caullen
Yeah, it doesn't go away completely. But in the film, it was like, someone wrote that intentionally to make a point, we presume. And so I noticed that in the same conversation as Alexis's experience and journey.
[00:46:33.340] - Ricardo
Yeah. And that she has to teach Lisette how to be more feminine, how to be more sexy as a woman. So again, it's taking this idea of like, what's a real woman? And, the, in quotations, "real woman" has to go to her trans sister, right? Especially when you think about this at the nineties when we didn't have the discourse then. People in the nineties are probably watching this like, nah, that's a fucking dude. You know what I mean? But she goes to her and is like, yo, show me how to be sexy. Show me how to be a "real woman" in quotations. And the trans woman shows her that shit. I was like, oh... I remember as a kid, that's- I mean, when I was a kid-
[00:47:07.210] - Caullen
How old were you when you saw this movie?
[00:47:08.600] - Ricardo
I think I saw it in middle school. And I was like, I'm a faggot. Like, I'm queer as hell. I'm genderqueer. And that, to me, I remember it. I rented it every week. This is when you could still rent movies from blockbuster and shit. I rented it every week, for like a month and a half, because it was one of the- I think it was the only queer latino representation I had seen.
[00:47:32.900] - Mia
You're not gonna do Chi Chi like that.
[00:47:34.890] - Ricardo
Oh, you're talking about John leGuizamo? *laughing*. Damn, you're just right though. I never actually realized that so much of Alexis's journey is seeking parental approval and love, parallels the son's journey of seeking parental approval and love. [crosstalk 00:47:50]
[00:47:52.570] - David
And what's so interesting about Alexis, this character, is like, I also saw that they were the one gassing up her sister to like- they were the one who proposed modeling, right? It wasn't like, oh, I'm thinking about this. Like, no, you got it, you could do it, whatever, whatever. So it was kind of like she wanted to take her under her wing, low key. Like, yo, I can show you everything because I can do all this, and you just got it. And there was this- I saw it as Alexis completing herself with her sister in the journey of it. That's why I was like, yo, take.. They even literally gave parts of themselves for them to accomplish this one goal. And that's the parallel I immediately saw, which is also- just to think about, Alexis also let her keep these breasts for time, right? To the point where she showed up with her kids! And that comes from then this love for this other person, right?
[00:48:47.150] - David
I didn't see it as like, yo, you stole it. But rather like, yo, I let you keep them for enough time, bring them back type shit. So Alexis's story was so beautiful in and that it does connect. We're allowed to see them just for themselves, which I think is wonderful. It's not no trauma porn type shit that is circulating around. What we often see, to Ricardo, your point, in today's media where it has to be some trauma-hinging point to get everybody for this character to matter to us. Like, no, that's not the fucking case. We're allowed to see them for themselves. And then we learn, like, oh, cool, this is a story that they want to complete for themselves because of what they're seeing their sister go through, specifically with C or Junior. And that was just like, he's eight years old, how you gonna be mad he made decision at eight years old? And I was like, you tell that motherfucker! Tell her!
[00:49:37.850] - Caullen
Not only did he make a decision, he made a decision out of what he was told. Okay, being a man is providing, doing this; I can have my own shit without having to [crosstalk 00:49:46] Totally. Okay, so I'm gonna go do the thing to get what I want because that's what you said the rules are. But when I do, I get my ass beat, so I am confused as a young person.
[00:49:55.200] - Mia
Right. Alexis was a gentle parenting icon before *laughing*.
[00:50:02.210] - David
Ricardo, you seem like you wanna say something?
[00:50:04.850] - Ricardo
I think I forgot. I think the whiskey just hit a little bit.
[00:50:09.673] - Caullen
Let's go!!
[00:50:09.790] - David
That's real! No, but I think. Yeah. And so with-
[00:50:11.200] - Ricardo
Wait, what did you just talk about right now?
[00:50:12.710] - David
I'm talking about Alexis's character. And how I felt they were allowed to see them for themselves. And then it's like, here's that - a journey that we're gonna share with them rather than, like, yo, trauma.
[00:50:22.810] - Ricardo
Yeah, yeah, yeah! No, that she had-
[00:50:24.610] - David
And all day heel or whatever.
[00:50:26.450] - Caullen
We didn't get that until the very end.
[00:50:28.250] - Ricardo
What I love about that-
[00:50:29.080] - David
I think that's what I liked about the story, though. It's not like it was like, oh, this is a secondary thing that doesn't really matter to the content of the film.
[00:50:36.140] - Ricardo
That she had her own storyline. So again, right. I think radical film is not just radical filmmaking in like, here's the message that you get from this-
[00:50:44.090] - Caullen
Donate to the whale fund.
[00:50:45.160] - Ricardo
You know what I mean? But radical filmmaking is also the politics of the storytelling. And for me, one of the things that Alexis demonstrates is that, people are not- So we have the whole Joseph Campbell heroes journey, type of shit. Like, character driven storylines. But character- it's never characters driven storylines. It's character driven storyline, which speaks to individuality and individualism, which itself is a western value. And here, what you see is characters driven stories that intersect; and that, to me-. When you talk about community, that type of collectivism, that type of stuff is speaking a whole other anti-western, anti-white type of politic for narrative and how we understand ourselves in stories.
[00:51:26.090] - Ricardo
Because Lisette, at the end of the day, has to localize herself, not just in her story, in her individual transformation according to narrative, but in everybody around her's story. Her story is connected to Magdalena's; her story is connected to Angel's; her story is connected to Chino's; her story is connected to her kids, her parents, her sister. So all these ways in which the-. And by giving the supporting characters storylines that actually matter, and that have enough- that 1) exists for the character themselves and don't just push the plot forward of the main character; it undoes it, right? Because my thing is, so much of this actually is a messianic. So much of storytelling, it refers to messianic storytellings where it's the anointed individual that we're gonna follow through this script. And this is actually what good storytelling is. And here, it's like, no, we'll follow the character, we're also gonna follow the apostles.
[00:52:19.640] - Caullen
Cause they got problems, too.
[00:52:23.430] - Ricardo
They fucking trans, and getting beat.
[00:52:25.330] - David
Go ahead, Mia.
[00:52:27.350] - Mia
I love that you say that it's interconnected, cause I think you see so much of how the parents influence is shaping the characters in real time. Both Alexis and Lisette are trying to seek approval from what seems to be their very strict, sort of "pick yourself from your bootstraps", sort of West Indian father, right? And Lisette's like, hey, mommy, tell papi I got my cubicle. I got my job.
[00:52:53.200] - Ricardo
The first thing she does is call her parents. And they ain't even present in the movie.
[00:52:56.710] - Mia
Right. And they're both meaning different things. Because if you look at Alexis's character, I mean, we're talking about a trans woman in the nineties who has her own business. That's literally like... If it wasn't for that, by all other standards, the father should be happy with that. Whereas, Lisette doesn't have that. She's over here depending on Chino, trying to assert herself, trying to make some money and be independent. And has to be like, hey, where's your approval? And then you got Chino dealing with his really anti-Black mother because she's... She makes those comments of like, I have pure Castilian blood.
[00:53:28.020]
[crosstalk 00:53:28]
[00:53:31.530] - Mia
But Chino resists. But Chino really resists the anti-Blackness. And it's actually really dope when you see it. Like, now, I think in 2023, and what that means and how Latinos have been challenged to really question those things; he's like, man, I'll comb my own daughter's hair. Like, you know what I mean? He's like, this is me, these are my kids, I'm gonna be here, and I don't need Magdalena. And it's crazy, cause the- you could really tell and see it. Sorry, I'm going into Chino's mom, Rita Moreno's character.
[00:53:57.850] - David
No, please. The Devil.
[00:53:58.660] - Mia
But, like- the devil. But she's over here saying, by all other standards, Magdalena, she was like, the "slut" of the movie or whatever. But because she has proximity to whiteness, because she has proximity to some kind of class status.
[00:54:12.700] - David
Property.
[00:54:13.560] - Mia
He's all like- she's like, give that baby your last name and leave your Afro-Latino family. Like, just leave them.
[00:54:21.080] - David
Just welching off of you.
[00:54:21.840] - Ricardo
That's what I love too, is the complexity of race in it, too. Because Magdalena's dark skin with dyed blonde hair. And then also her dad's light-skinned and owns the bodega. So there's these ways in which when you talk about race in Latin America, and the casta systems, and there's ways in which-. It's kind of like, a little bit more complicated than just this binary Black/white shit, in ways that is like, race is performed, right? Cause the mom is living in the fucking hood too.
[00:54:46.020] - Mia
Right, her son died. Her son, remember Chino's brother who died from drug dealing? Who he pushes the seat up to be like, you wanna be like your uncle? You wanna be like your uncle? So it's like that classic, light-skinned mom living in the hood, trying to assert herself through race. But it's like, you got this hood experience, too. You lost a son to drug war violence.
[00:55:07.620] - Ricardo
And it's really different because I feel like she comes up from that generation, right? When we think about the nineties, of civil rights respectability. Of, I'm a person, too, look, I can match your whiteness with my dignified clothing and wearing all that stuff. And so, she has a lot of that. I feel though, with Latinos particularly, they were just fucked up about it. *laughing*. It was a lot of the demonstrating the respectability without the radical politics behind it.
[00:55:37.200] - Mia
It was just respectability. Assimilation ass.
[00:55:39.020] - Ricardo
Just respectability.
[00:55:42.020] - David
I also think her character didn't fall flat. Because we also never, for example, we never see her husband, right? We never see her partner or we never see Chino's dad. And so- also the way in which she's there for the kids- she hates the kids, but she's... you still see her there in the apartment. You still see her there in the space; until the parent shows up, and then she's like, all right, cool, I'm out. And so there's... I don't know. There's layers to the mom that I appreciated. But.
[00:56:05.760] - Mia
And at one point, she's on the block with them, too. And she's trying to find out, why were you in the Lamborghini at four in the morning?
[00:56:11.920] - Caullen
Yeah! Instigating like a mother fucker.
[00:56:14.480] - Ricardo
That to me, though, that shows- as someone that came of age in the nineties too, in the late nineties- I was just like, yo, that shit is so fucking real. And yeah, I instigate a lot cause I'm a messy bitch that lives for drama as well. But it was like, yo, that shit is so real- the questions that they were kind of asking. Even this idea of- when Lisette, she has to use food stamps in the corner store, and I think that's so fuck.. I remember that being thrown around, just on the South Side as like, this motherfucker's on-. I mean, Eddie Murphy, in his Raw or Delirious, he has a whole thing about, like-
[00:56:48.180]
[sound clip of Eddie Murphy] "you don't have no eyes. You didn't get nothing, You didn't get nothing. Cause you are on the welfare, and can't afford it. He can't afford it...."
[00:57:05.710] - Caullen
That hit me a lot. I think with all this stuff, I think about, what year did this come out? What was happening? What was going on? Bill Clinton mentions revamping or not having a welfare state anymore in '92. '96 is when that act comes out. The Personal Responsibility, blah, blah, blah Act, that changes welfare. Talking about- not like a means tests, means is up the ass, have these higher standards for having this support by the state, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Before that, we have the eighties with Reagan- I wanna say RIP, but "P" stands for "piss," I want you all to know that. He makes the "welfare queen," that image; that's coined from Reagan, or his staffers, whoever. And so we know those policies, we know that the narrative it drives, I think all of us knowing the importance and power of media, drives it home into Clinton's presidency. Which is, at the time, seemed as different. Which now we're like, oh, that was Reagan-lite.
[00:57:56.360] - Caullen
And so '94 was right in the middle of '92, the current president mentions that, '96 that fucking bill comes out. And when we talk about internalizing that oppression, internalizing that violence and using it toward each other to better ourselves, or just- that's what I have, the means is what I'm gonna talk about. The welfare logic and the welfare queen logic, and like, you- everyone's struggling out here, the worst you can do is have those cards, those stamps, and those things. And then- that's what got a lot, to me. Even with the context aside, politically, as far as how they use that as a dig. And how no one wanted to do that, even if they needed it in some capacity.
[00:58:34.400] - Ricardo
Yeah. Cause I think, for me, what's exciting about the film is like, yeah, it's a great fucking film; esthetically, formally, and in terms of formally as cinema. And then it's great in terms of storytelling and cutting edge, and innovative in terms of how it plays with narrative and how to tell a story. But then also, there's this part of it in which it functions as a document, and a historical document for... What you're really seeing is a film take on the prison industrial complex in real time, right? It's not like us that read Angela Davis's article in the Atlantic in 1999, you know what I mean? In 2000-something coming back to it, it's like, this film is doing that in real time in 1994. It's taking on the war on drugs. It's taking on the stereotypes around welfare. It's taking on the war on crime. Because you see... Chino isn't in jail because he was involved in some kind of thug life, gang shit, right? That was the fantasy that was being told about why we needed our war on crime. He's incarcerated because he tried to steal a stereo. The son is in drugs because his dad is incarcerated for some bullshit; not because he's got an absent father. The dad actually is trying everything he can do to be there, you know what I'm saying?
[00:59:48.900] - Caullen
Trying to support and give his partner something she wanted.
[00:59:52.090] - Mia
It broke my heart when he was trying to give his son some ice cream. And he's all like, no, I don't want to share, you put your mouth on it. He's like, well, I don't got money, man, I could only share. He's like, I got my own money. You know what I mean? And I'm like, ughh.
[01:00:04.630] - David
Nah, but I feel that's exactly what you expected. You also put this kid butt naked in the middle of the hallway just the scene before.
[01:00:13.550] - Mia
That's true. You right. You right.
[01:00:14.750]
[crosstalk 01:00:15]
[01:00:18.170] - David
I really appreciated the way it had so many digs into toxic masculinity in Latino cultures, in machismo, identities or whatever. From the dumbass friends, to the son and his sister's relationship to the parents and what have you.
[01:00:35.950] - Ricardo
Yeah, it's weird that you said that. Cause, this is- I always.. Whenever I watch a movie, I try and watch it for the first time that time. And then whenever I talk about a movie, I try to have a conversation about that movie for the first time that time. And so for me, hearing you two talk, it's the first time I ever thought of this film. Like, you and Caullen talk- David and Caullen talk. It's the first time that I've ever thought of this film as a film that's looking at the limits of masculinity as an organizing principle for society. Because-
[01:01:05.900] - David
That's what it's based on. Like, yo, you didn't pick my number-
[01:01:09.300] - Ricardo
All the sense of possibility comes from the woman of color, the queerness, the trans woman of color. And that's where we-
[01:01:16.480] - David
They literally chase opportunities. They chase before the door closes.
[01:01:20.860] - Ricardo
Yeah. And the youth of color that serve as a mirror that unravels the dominant ideology. So when his son tells him that, he's also like, damn, I'm fucked up. Like my son is literally parroting back the shit that I told him.
[01:01:35.380] - Mia
And C does that. Sorry, really quickly. The C does that throughout the entire film, is that he's pointing out the logical inconsistencies in what his parents are teaching him. The entire time. And they always just find themselves of like, uh, like, a gotcha moment, you know?
[01:01:49.700] - Ricardo
And I love when the sister has his back, and she's just like, yeah, Papi, you said that if you pick on somebody more little than you, then you a punk.
[01:01:57.580] - David
She also instigates!
[01:01:59.780] - Caullen
I think... All that is, I think an intergenerational critique, it is a capitalist and power structure critique. Because it's like- and I think a lot of y'all motherfuckers learned this during COVID, oh, I have the good job, I went to school, I'm making this, I'm saving this- oh, this pandemic hit that y'all should have infrastructure for, and then I'm jobless- what's going on? I'm talking about the folks that, not in this room type thing, but everyone knows and no shit is guaranteed. And folks who are either in a situation like, oh, I'm told capitalism works, I'm told things are better for my generation. I did all the things right, I did what you told me to do, and I'm still ass out.
[01:02:35.170] - Ricardo
But some of us like being ass out. So, like, you know, I just want to put some pressure against those type of homophobic... *laughing*
[01:02:43.330] - Caullen
I will say for the Tribune, the Craine's Business writers out there who are listening to this episode, which is no one, Ricardo did say "anti-white" and meant that in an affirming way. So I'm just saying. I'm not saying Ricardo's anti-white... You can retract the tape and just see about it.
[01:02:56.730] - Ricardo
Let them know I will still get an op-ed in their paper telling them that they erase us.
[01:03:04.050] - David
Y'all are too funny.
[01:03:05.550] - Caullen
I think it's wild. And the adultism attached to that, right? You have this power dynamic and critique as far as, I did everything you said to do, I followed your rules, and now you're mad at me? Like, I'm confused, I don't understand, I'm confused. But then that coming from an adult, and then not even a youth, just a child. What that looks like. And then the child-rearing and those practices, especially for Black and Brown folks. And what's actually successful in that?
[01:03:29.380] - Caullen
I think a lot of films critique stuff, right? This one, not only critiques toxic masculinity, critiques capitalism and gender roles, but it offers solutions. And offers solutions with a question mark. Like, hey, this will be tried what we're doing... Pros and cons. What do you think? In a way that's not like, you didn't give me anything for this prompt. But it's like, no, you had a lot of messiness there, and I can pick out some nuggets for good and bad and kind of figure it out. But it's like, it critiques and also offers solutions, which I think is also important. You don't see that all the time also.
[01:04:01.090] - Mia
I think that there is a lot of trying to displace responsibility in the film. Like, who's the responsibility of the father? Who's the responsibility to correct C?
[01:04:11.920] - David
No one said, hey, let's get a paternity test.
[01:04:14.120] - Mia
Yeah, exactly.
[01:04:15.080] - David
That's what I would have been like. Easy, done-skis.
[01:04:17.400] - Mia
Right, right. Yeah, no, it's just, you see that. And then I think one of the powerful moments of the film is when Lisette is like, she's in her working woman bag of like, I gotta worry about this, I can't deal with C. His father's disciplining him, it is what it is. And Alexis is like, no, wait.. Because Bobby disciplines me and mommy doesn't get involved. And, you need to come in. And like, Chino just beat his ass in front of the whole neighborhood, butt naked. You need to step in and offer that balance. And she's trying to displace that responsibility of like, nah, nah, nah, let him, let him. And you see that a lot when you're so under pressure.
[01:04:52.180] - Ricardo
But also that she's resentful towards her son for replicating the behaviors of the father, too, at that one moment, you know?
[01:04:58.980] - Mia
Exactly. And so there is this moment, to the adultism that you're talking about, there's adultism where you're trying to dominate on the child and make them adhere to these illogical.... these norms or whatever that don't even have- aren't consistent. Because you're like, 1 minute you're telling the kid, be a man, the next minute you're like, you're a little kid. You know what I mean? And receiving these mixed messages. But at the same time, it is, I think, a real document- and thank you for saying that because it's a film about racial capitalism. It really is. It's a Latinx film, but it's a film about racial capitalism. And you see that so much in how- like, the trauma of, your dad's in jail, you're getting punked by the kids around the block, they want you, force you to sell drugs, you're trying to be there for your mom. All of these things are happening and taking place at the same time. And I think you have.... In the midst of all this toxic masculinity, it is a trans woman that is asserting your humanity and your need for love and affirmation that, I think, to me, was- that tied the film together, was when Lisette was like, no, let me go talk to my baby.
[01:06:08.190] - Ricardo
Well, because, the trans.. Even that idea of, when you think about white woman feminism and where it is in that moment, which is like, you either be like- you're either just the woman that is adhering to the gender role of, I'm a mother and I'm a wife. Or you're the bad bitch that owns her own business.
[01:06:24.670] - Mia
Bourgeoisie feminism.
[01:06:25.820] - Ricardo
You know what I mean, that type of bourgeois feminism that when you see what Alexis is advocating to Lisette, and what Lisette learned is like, even that conceptualization, that duality- that's actually patriarchal. You're either taking up the role of traditionally what's male, or taking up the role of what's traditionally female. And that actually, you can short circuit that. Is actually, you know what I mean, what I think is really fucking cool. And because that actually conceptualization, that binary scaffolding is actually a product of white feminism. And here we see those kind of lines fucking dissolve because that's never been applicable to women of color, right? Black women were still working in the field while they were still trying to child rear. You know what I mean? So, you see that actually play out in the film in a really fucking dope way.
[01:07:11.580] - Ricardo
Again, that isn't heavy handed. That isn't super didactic. That you can walk away from that without seeing it, and it doesn't mean you didn't get the lesson, right? You didn't see it in the activist terms, but it doesn't mean you didn't actually see the possibility and the potential of it. Which I think is, again, super cool. Yo, my bag- Mia and Charles will tell you- has just been talking shit about activism, so.. *laughing*
[01:07:31.280] - Ricardo
But to Caullen's point about the adultism in the film, I think what it also shows, too, is that youth are the receptacle for all the things.
[01:07:43.240] - David
And the measure- and the barometer.
[01:07:45.340] - Ricardo
Yeah.
[01:07:45.680] - David
Barometer for like... What I really appreciate about him is, to your point, like, here you are telling me to be the man of the house now. Here you are telling me to be responsible. So I show you that. I gave you my car. I'm like, yo, here's the little car I was rolling the car. I was like, damn. Fucking heartbroken. And then, okay, cool, so I'm trying to do that. Then, now you're telling me that, okay, clearly you need money. I'm hearing the solution, I'm bringing the solution to the home. You don't like the solution? But we ain't got no other option. To me, I like the paradox of the child having to learn how to- not deal with his mother- but the relationship he had to solidify and understand that without his father, this is the relationship he has to have with his mother. Because then we see...
[01:08:26.490] - David
When I really saw it is when, okay, now the dad has kicked him out, my man is living under the stairwell, right? And that's when Alex is like, yo, you gonna get this kid, or no? That was really where I think that the child in themselves- because even then, when he goes back to the home, he's hiding in the closet. And so I don't know. I think they did a wonderful job of explaining, while the youth are that barometer for the lessons, it's also for the parent- each gives them the opportunity to understand they're wrong.
[01:08:54.450] - David
And before we started our episode, Mia was like, well, what's one part that you liked? The one part where he's beating his kid in front, and then he finally- it was so literal. And the film was so literal. Man is holding a belt, looking at this person on the wall, and he's realizing, yo, I am my dad type shit. I think the way it challenges- or speaks to the cycles, but then challenges it and presents it. Because in the other time, he's like, you're right, you're a man, I'm not gonna bs, I'm gonna talk to you. Clearly he did that the wrong way *laughing* went the wrong way. But I think those were the steps that y'all are naming in terms of, what we see in the film and what it tries to offer in terms of other things. Because Chino had a point, right? Not that I would put my kid butt naked and throw him into- but like, yo, your child is only understanding things for this moment, okay, cool.
[01:09:46.830] - David
I love C's character. I think he was one of the most important things in terms of, finalizing what is a relationship to your mom between your dad. And also understanding, because they both tell him, yo, this is not your fault, this isn't because of you. Each parent has moments with that kid, specifically, and they go, this isn't about you, I hope you know that. And even though they tell him, he doesn't receive that, you feel I'm saying? So it's like, the parents are doing, to your point, it's not like it's a dad abandoning his kids, no, each parent does the best they can to raise these kids.
[01:10:18.260] - Ricardo
Yeah, but, like... Because I'm even thinking about, even when you think about all the stereotypes that exist that are used as technologies to oppress people. So like, gay people are hyper sexual, they're a moral panic. That women are fragile, you need to keep them in the house. Black people are savage, they're beyond the border of civilization. You can't let them congregate. Similar to Latinos, right? They're lazy, they need to be more industrious. Even though, we pick everything that motherfuckers eat, right? All this stuff. But when you look at, even the way high school disciplinary management exists, it's all of that stuff. You can't teach... We got to take care of these kids because they're just going to be fucking. They don't know how to act, so we need these bells, we need security guards, we need cops, we need metal detectors. Every stereotype that's applied to people converges in the figure of the youth. And I think that that is something that we see in this film, too, right?
[01:11:16.090] - Ricardo
Like, C has to struggle with masculinity. He has to... He hides in the closet the way Alexis probably had to at some point. All these kind of layers in it that- he has to struggle with survival. All of the things that each of the characters are doing, the child figure in the film- the principal child character- we see him navigating all of those things from the position of a child. And then when you think about the nineties.. This is when you have Central Park Five, this is when youth are being tried as adults. That is a radical act in and of itself to show like, no, this is actually what childhood looks like. Because this is the same time that they're showing fucking shows like Growing Pains and Step by Step, with these model white families with these white kids. John Hughes movies that get to have their Ferris Bueller's Day Off, C doesn't get a day off, he has to be on all the fucking time. And so in it of itself, within its context, and I think still today, has a lot of radical potential to mine and glean meaning from.
[01:12:20.640] - Caullen
I'm so glad you mentioned those shows because it's like, oh, it's just hard to do in cinema or in tv shows to write a script like that, that's nuanced. Like, oh, no, you can do it with them, but for some reason, you can't do it with Black folks. You can't do it with Latine folks. You can't do it with Asian folks. You can't do it with anyone who's not this model white, nuclear, straight cishet, all the things family. So you can do it, and you understand their humanity, but for some reason you just happen to not have humanity for the rest of us. And that's...
[01:12:46.590] - Ricardo
Yeah, like, if this movie came out today, it'd be hailed... It'd be hailed. And it came out right when it did. And it's weird when you read- I encourage, go to, I think at Remezcla, an online, Latino publication, did a compilation of reviews of the film. And they're really interesting to read because, I think, it's made by a woman. Because it's made by a Black woman. Because the film centers Black and Latinos. It has this kind of condescending, pedantic type of takes on it. And it's so bizarre because, as someone that is a filmmaker, is a storyteller, is very successful within the industry. You know what I mean?
[01:13:24.925] - Caullen
This mother fucker.
[01:13:24.970] - Ricardo
Well, cause, I think that- I don't believe in credentials. I actually was like, I would never write for Hollywood. And then I realized, even within my own community- you motherfuckers actually respect the motherfucker that writes... That will go that route than someone like me that spent most of their life refusing it. So I was like... And if I say something wrong, you'll be the first bitches online canceling my ass. So actually, let me actually get mine, get my money and create a radical infrastructure that wasn't there that I didn't have. Which is why so much of the capital that I do accrue from Hollywood is supporting other young artists. Cause I think about how that work isn't valued. And I'm like, yo, a studio took a big chance on this film, and it's actually brilliant. But then, even then, the notions of artistic legitimacy and artistic excellence- which, you know, don't extend themselves, to actually recognize it within the historical context of that moment. And I think that's the case with this film.
[01:14:23.010] - Mia
And that's the part where you have to have, I think, a certain level of critique of understanding, like, this is the economic that we're based with. And the film features some of the most hyper-exploited people in our society, which is, yeah, the ghetto in the 1990s, right? And I think, you could critique- and I think what so many people miss nowadays is that so much of the conversation is on the interpersonal like, what makes you problematic, and this isn't that. And I think that things should be- we should advance in society and become self-critical and self-conscious of certain things. But at some point, you have to remember, the culture is a reflection of- the superstructure is a reflection of the economic base, right? And the things that you're seeing as reinforced: the individualism, the patriarchal notions of slut shaming- all of these things, that's gonna continue to happen as long as we live under this current system. It's just what it is.
[01:15:15.230] - Mia
And so what I appreciate about the film is that it gives you all of this messiness. And it shows you, even in that there's redemption in here, there's love, there's care, and there's tenderness, and this desire to want to push forward of it. And you can see it from this bird's eye view, as opposed to just being like, oh, go into the carceral logics and impurity and moralistic sort of politics that come from Christianity and all these other sort of colonial logics of like, oh, well, you did that bad, X. You know? These people can't afford to cancel themselves. She can't even afford to cancel Chino, she's a working woman! You know what I mean? That's the reality when you're that exploited, is that you can't cancel people when you're poor. The fuck you talking about?Why you think-
[01:15:56.740] - Ricardo
She can't move away, right?
[01:15:57.940] - Mia
You know what I mean?
[01:15:59.540] - David
That's her apartment, yeah.
[01:16:00.140] - Ricardo
She can't customize her life.
[01:16:01.570] - Caullen
I will sin for my things.
[01:16:03.220] - Ricardo
But what I like about it, too, is right now, we talk about- I don't say... I believe in love as a value, I don't think anyone understands how much I believe in it. And it literally is what I lead in. Me and Mia had breakfast before this, she came by, and I was talking about how it's really weird for me because I spent the majority of my life actually being like, fuck this world, I'll create this one. You know what I mean? So I don't need to ever get recognized for my activism, I'm just gonna-. Like, if the people from the block know who I am, that's how I know I'm successful. If the people from my community know me, that's how I'm successful. And at the same time, that bucks up against its own kind of limits, right? But when I think about like- Because the reality is we still look up here. We still look up instead of to the side, you know? And along those lines, when I think about activism, we say words like, "radical love." Radical love.
[01:16:55.210] - Caullen
I love this voice. I love this fake activism voice.
[01:16:57.310] - Ricardo
Because I don't fucking use it anymore, you know what I mean? as much as I believe in love and as much as I believe in alternatives, I don't use that word anymore because I feel like it's been diffused even within activist settings, where love just means. We can sit in the drum circle together and- you know what I mean? *drum circle in background*. Whereas for me, what I love about this film, it's radical love but it's rooted in compassion. And compassion, right, when they talk about...
[01:17:20.900] - Ricardo
I'm not religious at all, right? I'm a communist, I went to Cuba when I was fucking 15, so I'm very atheist. And at the same time though, I think love is the spiritual thing that we get to have. In our lived experience, it feels godly, it feels transcendent, it feels amazing- in all of its forms, whether that's familial, romantic, platonic. But that this film is about compassion. And when they talk about the passion of Christ, they're actually talking about his suffering, right? So the compassion is actually being in suffering with you, and still being able to extend love and being able to extend love during that moment. And in this film, until they recognize each other's pain and see each other in pain is, they're not able to actually move forward. And for me, that's what I think is so radical. It's like, nah, it's not some fucking willy nilly tidy idea of love. And I just realized that we're different, but we're all the same. Or, like- you know what I mean? That it's really this... Because activists, how we skirt that is say like, oh, it's really just the white man. It's really just this bigger thing outside of us. But, no, it's also in us.
[01:18:29.592]
[crosstalk 01:18:29]
[01:18:29.790] - Ricardo
And so. I love that the film is about- it's about compassion. It's like, oh, we're fucking exploited as fuck, and we're suffering, but we're able to see- once we see that and understand each other, then we can move, you know?
[01:18:44.700] - Mia
Yeah. And I think a big part of it, and what we don't exercise as a principle is, part of love is humility. That is the spiritual element, is that you're sacrificing ego, because you're saying- me relating to you and getting through to you and having a conversation with you will require humility of me, and that's more important than being right. That's more important than being right and getting it right. And that's what we see in our activist cultures. It's like, I gotta be right. It's like, no, fuck radical love; radical humility, just start there.
[01:19:14.150] - Ricardo
Yeah. And I feel like- I love that you said that, because I feel like right now, we're obsessed with empowerment politics. Everything is like, I feel so empowered, I feel like I can... you know.. I could swerve my neck, snap my fingers, pound my chest, do any of that stuff, right? But you know what I'm saying? It's all that idea of like... I'm in so many Black and Brown activist circles where it's just like, yeah, I could fucking stand up to, and I feel like it's all based on this notion of empowerment that actually oftentimes coincides with ego.
[01:19:48.560] - Mia
It's individualistic.
[01:19:49.940] - Ricardo
Yeah. As opposed to dismantling it. Whereas for me, I'm like, oh, no, what I love is they all relinquish power.
[01:19:56.140] - Mia
Exactly.
[01:19:56.760] - Ricardo
You know what I mean? He relinquishes power over his son. She relinquishes having to be the empowered woman, working woman. You know what I mean?
[01:20:05.470] - Caullen
Hashtag girl boss.
[01:20:06.480] - Ricardo
Right. She says, fuck it.
[01:20:06.840] - Mia
And that's the thing too. It's like, if you give up individualistic empowerment, you actually reach collective empowerment, which is the only thing that's gonna get us to true systemic change.
[01:20:18.540] - Ricardo
Yeah, but, so now you've been talking and hearing you, I have this new idea is like, the film is an invitation to collective empowerment. Cause at the end, can I say the end or? At the end, they're all kind of frolicking at Coney Island on the beach, right? But not everybody from the film is there. And it's kind of like... But Alexis is there. It's like who... It's like- that actually going that route towards community and towards love and humanity, humility and collective empowerment, we always view it as a project, as a destination and that we got to get people on. And it's actually a very kind of, again, efficiency way of thinking. But actually it's, for me, even in my personal work, I'm like, oh, no, this is an invitation. And who's on? And whoever is there needs to be there, you know what I mean? And I think that stuff is kind of cool.
[01:21:04.980] - David
That's why for me, the ending, I know you said it was rather vague. To me, it was pretty crystal clear that they were going to take- they did what they needed to do in order to take the next step. And that was with tucking of the ring under the pillow. Like, they didn't put it on, so it wasn't like, yo, we Gucci, I forgive everything that happened. No. I do think though that there was, to the point of like, this is what homie needed to be healed. Cause she didn't need shit. She didn't really even give a fuck. She did get pissed off and like, yo, what do you mean this is everything you did? You thought, what do you talk about? So you really could have been Chino's baby- this other kids baby? Regardless, that's another conversation. Because we see that kind of happen throughout the entirety filming. And y'all named it of like, either people stealing her ideas, or my favorite scene.
[01:21:45.740] - David
One of my favorite scenes is where she gets motherfucker to drive her home. And motherfucker- I was really like, man, he's really about to put her, here's cab fare. Like, get out the car, I ain't driving you. And she's like, no. I know the number, this, that, the fifth.
[01:21:57.570] - Caullen
I know what you care about, and I'm gonna fuck that up if you don't do. It's an ultimatum.
[01:22:00.830] - Mia
Even when he was gonna fake fire her when she didn't want to have sex with him. And she was like, oh, you quitting? Like. She's like, cause I ain't going nowhere.
[01:22:08.340] - Caullen
I know you know my word. So I'm assuming you're losing, leaving.
[01:22:13.000] - David
And so we just appreciate all of those moments that allowed the individuals of the film to manifest. Because even the white dude, I don't remember his name, but he did so much shit. I was like, yo, what do you mean? And then-
[01:22:24.630] - Ricardo
His name is Price, which I never thought about until right now, which is actually, I probably feel like...
[01:22:29.150] - Caullen
There's one heavy handed thing. Yeah, maybe it was that one.
[01:22:33.000] - David
But I also appreciate allowing that character to also develop in real time.
[01:22:38.960] - Ricardo
Right.
[01:22:39.760] - David
And understand that this might be what he was used to, and then here comes someone else who, clearly, they need. And to the end, it's also the way they talk about them is also, to me, is like, okay, you kind of learn how to respect this person. It's my assistant, you know what I'm saying, they support me in this thing. It was just interesting to also see that character's growth who, like, I hated, a decent amount of the film. And yet, she uses our man, too, with the whole wrapping the condom in the jacket thing. I'm like, yo, he puts it down, I'm like, thank God he put it down, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Whatever.
[01:23:14.480] - Caullen
Use sex as a weapon. I mean, I'm glad you mentioned our white man, Price, in the film. Because, yeah, you hate him. You were kind of- you were positioned to dislike him for multiple reasons, but he also has a third dimension. You kind of understand it's maybe a little too far, but you're kind of like, all right, I know who this person is. But I'm not like, oh, this is Brad, hedge fund manager guy I don't like; which is kind of where I go to. It's like, oh, I know Brad now. I get them a little more than I normally would in this kind of film. And so even that, I think, was brilliant.
[01:23:46.560] - Caullen
And I thought of this for some other reason. I forgot who said what. But just in terms of having, at least how we viewed it, a politic to a North Star, to kind of aim this towards, and think that it hit on a lot of levels in weird ways. That being abolition or just our ideologies, collectively, politically, as far as freeing all our peoples. That position with shit being messy, I thought of Monica Crosby. Who, if you all don't know, Chicago activist, organizer, just dope, formerly incarcerated woman does a lot of work, and in a lot of these spheres. Shout out, Monica. She was like, my version of abolition, sometimes people need get punched in the face. I'm like, you know what? Shit's messy, sometimes people get punched, and we clean it up and we figure it out. And then I had this whole thought process after she said that. I was like, man, you're taught, no, that's violent and that's carceral and that's wrong, we shouldn't do that. It's like, but sometimes it happens. And what do we do after that happens? I think about that ideology with this film. And I hope the parallels connect after hearing so much of us talk about it. I just really like-
[01:24:55.140] - Ricardo
I'm glad you said that cause there's so many times where I just wanted to punch you in your face. *laughing*
[01:25:01.260] - Mia
And can we just really quickly just shout out all the brujería in the film.
[01:25:05.000] - David
Bro.. I know it says "embrujado".
[01:25:08.740] - Mia
Literally with the... with the chicken in the bed. Or it was a rooster, when Maggie brought that into the bed. And then the candles and the numbers. I really appreciate it- just, all the subtleties of the film. It's just excellently made.
[01:25:23.210] - David
I mean, I think- but that's the grounding of it. Because, I feel like a lot of our grandparents were funneled into that type of ideology, specifically when it came to prayer. How often times did you see- cause I watch with closed caption cause I'm deaf- praying? Like, that's like-
[01:25:40.300] - Ricardo
You are?
[01:25:41.020] - David
No, no, not really. But I have difficulty- it doesn't matter. But with capturing, the captions are "[praying]", right? It's like, how often that was a thing that either Chino was doing, the mother was doing, Lisette was doing. Or Alexis. You were talking about, we misgender when we're mad, when she went off on her sister like that. Home girl-
[01:26:02.760] - Mia
That hurt me.
[01:26:03.798] - Caullen
Hard to watch.
[01:26:04.140] - David
Turned around and started praying.
[01:26:06.370] - Ricardo
Yeah.
[01:26:06.740] - David
Started praying, fam. And I'm just like, as someone who does not pray, I'm just like, this is what they need in order to heal, that's awesome. But it's like, the homage to it.
[01:26:16.990] - Caullen
That's a structure they know.
[01:26:18.300] - David
The fucking, the crazy ass painting that Alexis has on her wall. It's not like it's a little photo of Jesus. Nah, it's like a fucking mural that she has on her walls.
[01:26:26.290] - Ricardo
But it's a syncretic Jesus. It's not just necessarily, like... Because of the fact that she's already training in brujería, you know what I mean? It's like, Jesus brought into our side, you know what I'm saying?
[01:26:39.170] - Mia
And I think it goes back to- I say brujería cause I'm just calling it that- but it's Santería. Which is really grounded in this hybrid, Yoruba-Catholicism mix of the religion. Which I think, it's just so New York, it's so Caribbean. It was really great.
[01:26:55.170] - Caullen
If you all are curious about the brujas of Brooklyn, Soapbox editorial happens to have an article entitled, "The Brujas of Brooklyn."
[01:27:03.050] - David
That's funny.
[01:27:03.960] - Ricardo
I mean, but, again... Cause even when I made my web series, Brujos, that's- I was amongst a handful of people that were mentioned in La Remezcla for bringing this back. And even then I was like, no, but I Like It Like That did it ten years before all of us, you know- 20 years before all of us almost. Because this film had that- and it's, again, that's one of the first films that I saw displaying Latino spiritual traditions. In terms of having an aunt that sells fucking Tupperware, but then also is gonna give you- rub an egg all over you while you're half naked to, like, you know, like that.
[01:27:47.440] - David
Yeah. I mean- and so this was, you know, if you haven't watched the film- [crosstalk 01:27:52]
[01:27:52.680] - Caullen
I'm surprised if you got this far and haven't watched the film.
[01:27:55.800] - Ricardo
There was a lot of- on our group chat, Charles was fucking hating on out this movie, and I was like, yo, this movie's fucking brilliant.
[01:28:01.920] - Caullen
Shout out, Charles. Can we bring in some Charles?
[01:28:05.150] - Ricardo
Charles Preston is the co-host of The Hoodoisie. One of my closest friends. Love him so much. Who, loved this film, and I think just to be polemical, was like, but is it coppaganda? And I was like, no, it ain't coppaganda, it's actually commenting on that. So we were going back and forth.
[01:28:21.830] - Mia
Wait, how could it be coppaganda?
[01:28:23.430] - David
I mean, there's there's mural that we see multiple times, right? And the first shot is only the one we see with "fuck cops." But every other shot it's a clean mural.
[01:28:31.630] - Caullen
No one said "fuck cops."
[01:28:32.370] - David
No, no, there's "fuck cops," in front of the mural that it gets tagged over. But that's the first scene.
[01:28:36.410] - Ricardo
For me- that's what I love about it. Is how it's this dude that's been incarcerated sticking up for his brother that's a cop that, because he was killed by drug dealers. But also, is not apart from that economy himself. So, his son is in it. So to me, it's these ways in which it... creates ambiguity around binaries. And the reality is- when I think about, anyone that knows me knows I've been an abolitionist before it was fucking cool. And I got fired for teaching it in 2000- in the early two thousands, before it was a common word. And so, for me, what, again, what I love about is, in the same way I think about military and policing- when it comes to officers of color, is that a lot of times you grow up in these fucked up neighborhoods where you're like, I want to make them better. And if you haven't had a robust political education, you're like, well, then I'm going to become a cop.
[01:29:37.100] - Ricardo
And again, I know, I don't talk to my family members that are police officers if I'm to be completely honest. So it's not like I'm writing a redemptive tale for police officers of color, but I like that a film was willing to go there. Same thing with the military. We all know imperialism is fucked up. People of color that are in the military know the military is fucked up. But at the same time, people go in there because it's like, oh, I think, maybe. And so what I love about that was the film was that fucking contradiction of like-
[01:30:07.890] - David
I mean... But I do see, like, to Charles's point, what I'm assuming, is like, my man does end up beating the shit out of the drug dealer. Who, also, it just very, like-
[01:30:16.250] - Caullen
Child. The child drug dealer.
[01:30:18.300] - David
Who happens just to have a gun, right? I also assumed it was gonna be dramatic where he gets in, shoots somebody. But it was so real. Man tries to pull out his gun, drops off.
[01:30:29.010] - Caullen
Again, I think- don't call stuff like that real. That's probably what would happen when someone gets shot.
[01:30:32.600] - David
But to the whole policing of it, that's what Chino was doing. He was policing his community to like, oh, you're the one messing with my kid? And so I can hear this sort of "take over your streets back," "protect your kids" type small vein that could have been seen in this film.
[01:30:47.720] - Mia
I see.
[01:30:48.280] - David
From Chino's perspective, specifically. And the kid, because the kid, guess what, like, yo, he doesn't end up doing. And the reason why he's doing it is cause he's being bullied. So the whole idea here is if we remove the bullies, if we remove the problem, then C is good.
[01:31:00.460] - Caullen
I think it's just reaction. I think it's reactionary.
[01:31:02.370] - Ricardo
Yeah. Cause I feel like Chino's behavior-
[01:31:04.000] - Caullen
What is part of policing..
[01:31:05.750] - Ricardo
It's problematic itself. The kids like, you're not my father. Chino's like, fuck, what the fuck am I doing beating the shit out of this kid?
[01:31:10.804] - Caullen
He stops.
[01:31:10.840] - Ricardo
He starts stepping back.
[01:31:12.710] - David
After he beat his ass. But yeah, I hear you.
[01:31:14.260] - Ricardo
But no, you know, Charles has really reductive views. That's just who he is.
[01:31:17.260]
[crosstalk 01:31:19]
[01:31:19.480] - Ricardo
And he ain't here to defend himself, so I want *laughing*.
[01:31:22.720] - Mia
I just realized that Chino's brother was a cop. This whole time I thought he was a drug dealer.
[01:31:27.590] - David
No, no.
[01:31:29.320] - Mia
Ooookay.
[01:31:31.400] - Caullen
Drug dealer who killed a cop.
[01:31:32.880] - Mia
I see now. Okay.
[01:31:34.880] - Caullen
But in quotes, because we don't- we don't know.
[01:31:35.750] - Mia
You see, every time I watch this movie, I learn something new about it. It's so complex, y'all gotta watch it.
[01:31:40.070] - Ricardo
Cause for me, what I love about the movie is how it fucks with what's illegal and what's legal.
[01:31:43.940] - Mia
Yeah.
[01:31:44.310] - Ricardo
And what gets considered legal and what gets considered illegal. Again, motherfucker- the whole inciting incident of the film is this dude getting this capitalist good, a stereo, right? And at that time- I love that it's like, a stereo is the thing to get at that time.
[01:31:59.730] - Caullen
Why is that the thing at this place at this time?
[01:32:02.030] - David
It also connects us to like, she loves music. She connects with music. This that, the fifth. But, you know..
[01:32:07.070] - Caullen
And I'm always thinking about all these things that aren't related. Like, oh, this, oh, this nugget and this nugget and this nugget. It's a.... I think it's just a good film in general.
[01:32:14.810] - Ricardo
Like me, okay.. I want to do a Hoodoisie festival of this film.
[01:32:18.410] - Mia
Wow.
[01:32:18.970] - Ricardo
Where we show the film, we have a couple panels afterwards or discussions. Then we do some type of publication where we invite different people. Because you could have someone write about the abolition ethics of the film or something like that. I'm trying to... Me as my boss, I'm trying to picture this. He's not having it. *laughing*
[01:32:37.750] - Caullen
Premiere a Soapbox film or something. Have a Q&A.
[01:32:43.670] - Ricardo
Cause my thing is, I think this is like... I don't have... I love movies. And I'm a generous viewer. I'm like, man, even if I was to watch a KKK movie, I'd be like, what's one thing I can take away from that?
[01:32:55.610] - Caullen
What did Earl really want?
[01:32:56.040] - David
Well, that's literally how I wanted to close this off. One of the things that I would love my people to take away from this film is the abilities or the moments that we give ourselves to have the abilities to communicate. There was two different parts where I saw Chino and homegirl was like, you got something to say? And he didn't say shit. And I was like, motherfucker, just say it. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, sometimes we don't realize that we're being given those moments to say our shit. He's all stressed out. He's out here dealing with other things. He could've communicated something. And sometimes we don't feel we have those spaces, but in this film we've seen so many spaces where we are. From Angel confessing to Chino, from homegrown confessing to her father. Clearly there are always opportunities to communicate into better things. And that's something that I hope, to me, my people take from the film is like, there are always opportunities.
[01:33:47.270] - David
Sometimes they're not presented as consistently as we would like. Like in Alexis's case, where it's like, yo, I needed this space to allowed to be. And at the end, I realized I needed my parents to be that. Clearly that wasn't it, which is tragic. But I think that's also the beauty, to your point, who is in that last scene? That's Alex with the kids, and her sister and Chino. So that's my takeaway from the film. But anybody wanna popcorn on that?
[01:34:14.160] - Mia
Yeah, I could go next. I think what I would want people in today's day to take from the film- sorry, Ricky's making me laugh. But I think to try not to see things as so black and white, flat, moralistic, good, bad. To really embrace all the complexities of it. And to really understand just how, being in survival mode is a cascading domino effect that leads to decisions where there's very few margins of forgiveness under this current system. You can't bounce back from a stolen stereo. You can't bounce back. You know, there's just so many effects. And how our experiences are so interrelated. Which goes back to what you were saying, Caullen, where it's not about canceling, throwing people away, not when the margins are stacked that way. So I think- I'll continue to say this, it's a great critique of racial capitalism then and even now, that continues to apply.
[01:35:19.780] - Ricardo
Yeah, mine are, two. It's like, we always have these sayings like, you're the center of your own story. You know what I mean?
[01:35:29.310] - Caullen
Live, laugh, love.
[01:35:30.540] - Ricardo
Right. And I think, for me, it's like, decenter yourself in your story. Actually thinking about where you are- where you're kind of like a part- an atom within a molecular structure and what that fucking means.
[01:35:52.230] - Ricardo
And then I would say the other one is like, revolution is not a destination, it's not an event, it's a relation. And it is how you... And in that way, it's like- and how you- revolution is attainable every fucking day, every moment. And how you relate and treat other people with- you know what I mean? You get to rehearse it within that universe of relationships. And that's-. Oh! Because last time we were on here, we were talking about Everything Everywhere All At Once. And that's the one thing I was thinking about like, it's always about- right now, we, like, with Marvel, it's all about the multiverse. The multiverse, everything... And I'm like, what I love about this film is the multiverse is the block, right? And so I think that everybody... There's this saying in Spanish that translates to, "every mind is a universe." And I love that. Like, every life is a universe in this fucking film. And, like, what is it? You know? And so, again, what does it mean to-. So I guess I had three. I'm queer, I'm all into excess. You know what I mean?
[01:36:53.120] - David
The film is 90 minutes. *laughing* Caullen, what you got?
[01:36:57.710] - Caullen
It's hard to hold a torch to what you three said. But the last thing Ricardo said, I'm thinking about the platform we're on. Not only Soapbox or B'nB or whatever, but just this Whiskey 'n Watching series, and how- at least, I, as part of the host structure of the film- or, of the podcast thinking about how do we want to structure this? As far as having our homies who are dope and do dope cool things and with a radical but sociological analysis, but also films that are superhero films, but also, comedy-dramas from the nineties, whenever, and having that... And me being like, wanting to plan everything. But also knowing like, shit's just gonna happen, we have to roll the punches and feel what's good. That way of structuring how we want to make a thing, like a cultural artifact- which I think all of this is in varying degrees.
[01:37:52.600] - Caullen
And, you know, the last film was Everything Everywhere All At Once. Which I think is ripe for the critiques and all the energy that comes to it from different audiences; whereas this, arguably, could be like, oh, comedy-drama film, you know. Just, New York. Hood. People are doing things, whatever.
[01:38:14.780] - David
But they don't romance in the nineties.
[01:38:16.160] - Caullen
Yeah, yeah. And it's just as deep as Everything Everywhere All At Once. It's just as deep as anything that's primed to think through all the layers. And so I... Same thing I say with all the Whiskey 'n Watching episodes, it's like, everything is political. Politics are relationships. Politics are personal. Politics are power. Politics are how we live and breathe and be in the world as humans, as living creatures, as plants, as whatever. So we should give everything this much rigor and discourse, and then work to change it for the better and for life and whatever that means. But with all that, I think just the messiness of all this and us trying to live out a journey for ourselves and our community, and the world that is just better in a way that we can sustain and feel good about. And knowing that through that journey, it's gonna be messy, it's gonna be ugly, we're gonna cause harm; harm be caused against us. Shout out Airgo, Respair Production & Media. The first episode of One Million Experiments, the podcast component of that project, the first episode with Mariame Kaba, she says:
[01:39:31.190] - Mariame Kaba
[sound clip] "the very systems we're trying to dismantle live within us. That's why this shit is so hard. We're gonna make our way, collectively, through experimentation, organizing, and rebellion."
[01:39:43.590] - Caullen
But figuring out and making art and making stories, fictional or non. And living through it and making it and critiquing it and looking at it and doing what we're doing right here in this space, I think is important to work towards that better future and all the fucking messiness that it is. And knowing that's gonna happen and figuring out ways and contras to deal with it and still lean towards life.
[01:40:07.400] - David
I had a cute little tidbit ending. Going Español, pero ####. So that's okay, we're gonna blame it on the tequila. I know we're Bourbon 'n BrownTown, but it was tequila today. We out here celebrating for real.
[01:40:17.710] - Ricardo
It wasn't Whiskey 'n Watching, it was Tequila 'n Talking for David and me.
[01:40:22.500] - David
Tequila 'n Talking. No, but, once again, we just want to shout out the Latines of the Hoodoisie. Hoodoisie in general, we really appreciate y'all being part of this series with us. I think y'all help bring those elements that I think are important, right? When we're thinking of being creative- or when we're just wearing the hat of creatives or professional working filmmakers, whatever the fuck, sometimes that can get lost in a lot of bullshit. And I think films like this, conversations with y'all definitely help ground, I hope, not only ourselves, but also all of our listeners. And so once again, please make sure to keep up with all the episode notes. All the details are in about all the things, including the homies, the Hoodoisie. And while their season may have ended, I'm sure there's hella hella plans in the future for them, so please stay tuned. As always, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.
[01:41:10.800] - Caullen
Stay tuned, stay turnt.
[01:41:12.380] - David
And we'll see you for the 100th episode! I hope you fucking ready!!
OUTRO
Music is Try A Little Tenderness by Otis Redding.