Bourbon 'n BrownTown

Ep. 98 - Coalition-building & Water Solidarity ft. Avalon Betts-Gatson & Tommy Hagan

Episode Summary

BrownTown talks water access, water solidarity, and abolition as presence with Avalon Betts-Gatson and Tommy Hagan, organizers with the Coalition to Decarcerate Illinois (CDI). From indigenous land back struggles to fighting for clean drinking water for incarcerated peoples, water is the most basic human right. The gang gets meta discussing organizing strategies within coalitions of various ideologies, access points to abolition, and the role of prisons and carceral logics in current campaigns, recent events, and everyday life. Originally recorded September 11, 2023.

Episode Notes

Full Transcription Here!

GUESTS
Avalon Betts-Gaston is a Chicago native, non-licensed attorney, ordained minister, and passionate advocate to dismantle, change and build a legal system focused on humane justice and harm reduction, not just punishment. Avalon made her public debut as an advocate at a young age when she convinced her fellow Congressional pages to protest apartheid outside of the South African embassy in Washington, D.C. This passion against various societal injustices continued throughout her life and was super-charged and focused on the criminal legal system after she was wrongfully convicted in 2015. She is the first known formerly incarcerated Board Chairperson for Community Renewal Society, and is also on the FreeHer Campaign Advisory Council, a board member of Chicago Votes, a 2022 JLUSA Leading with Conviction Fellow, and is currently the Project Manager at the Illinois Alliance for Reentry & Justice.

Tommy Hagan is the Co-Director of the REAL Youth Initiative. He has spent the last 8 years working to build power with currently incarcerated people in the United States. As a student at the University of Chicago, he helped launch the Bridge Writing Workshop, a weekly creative writing workshop at Cook County Jail. Tommy also participated in and co-wrote a published report on Northwestern University’s Children and Family Justice Center’s Reimagining Youth Justice Project. From this report, Tommy helped launch the Final 5 Campaign - a coalition fighting to close the 5 remaining youth prisons in Illinois. Part of the Irish diaspora, Tommy is dedicated to ending practices of settler colonialism, imperialism, and military occupation.

Learn more about CDI on their site and their SoapBox page; follow them on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

Mentioned in episode:

#StopCopCity RICO charges & #NoCopAcademy
The Willie Lynch Letter and the Making of a Slave
Ruth Wilson Gilmore - racism definition & "Abolition Geography"
Bella BAHHS' January 6th article (TRiiBE)
Dylan Rodríguez on Millennials Are Killing Capitalism
“We can’t have #LandBack without #WaterBack” --Pueblo Action Alliance’s #WaterBack campaign
Water access struggles (US): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Water access struggles (Internat'l): Honduras, Palestine, Bangladesh

CREDITS: Intro from the SoapBox-produced Coalition to Decarcerate Illinois press conference video on April 21, 2022. Outro song Wavy by Tobe Nwigwe. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles.

Episode Transcription

Ep. 98 - Coalition-building & Water Solidarity ft. Avalon Betts-Gatson & Tommy Hagan

INTRO

Intro from the SoapBox-produced Coalition to Decarcerate Illinois press conference video on April 21, 2022.

[00:00:52.590] - Avalon

I had to ask the question, is there something wrong with the water down there? They, like, we have no idea.

[00:00:58.230] - Meleah

Illinois EPA issued notices to several of the prisons, requiring them to do on site water sampling. Rather than comply, IDOC has cut off the water softening. Drinking water is coming out brown. There are horrific sanitation conditions inside the prisons as well.

[00:01:16.060] - Alan

This is not a new problem. This is the result of decades of neglect in our prison system.

[00:01:20.560] - Avalon

Neglect happening in every aspect of a person's incarceration. Showering and drinking water that the state knows includes poisoning. And so we need to get our brothers and sisters out of these death camps. Thank you.

BODY OF EPISODE

[00:01:40.750] - David

I want to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n Town. It's your boy, David, out here in the Harambe studios, along with my boy, Caullen. Caullen, man, how you doing today?

[00:01:49.110] - Caullen

We need a Harambe ad lib. *sound effect*. But I feel like it's so overdone and it's violent, because it's a gun and all the things. TBD.

[00:01:58.880] - David

And he doesn't want to give me buttons. Come on.

[00:02:01.180] - Caullen

I don't. TBD the Harambe ad lib. I am doing okay. As always, meant to get up earlier than I did before our meeting, but did not. But got some things done. And second recording in the studio, which I'm feeling good about. And it feels more sustained now as the office comes together. So feeling Gucci. How are you doing?

[00:02:22.510] - David

We're doing all right. This morning had a moment of existential crisis, but don't we all? I was driving in Chicago. Weather's changing, and there's four accidents on the way here. I'm like, y'all people. And some of them were kind of dangerous. I'm like, where y'all going that y'all gotta be driving like this? Just dealing with a little bit of that. I've been feeling really inspired by some of the things that we've been seeing take place in the world. Most notably around the Stop Cop City. RICO charges and actions that took place here in Chicago on Sunday. And so just trying to always find that. Because it gets tiring. The work is long, but doing things like this, again, just brings so much excitement. And you're right, second recording coming in here, Harambe Studios. So just super excited. Super excited.

[00:03:16.100] - David

So just getting straight into the conversation for today, I think in this podcast, if you haven't heard Coalition Building with No Cop or Stop Cop City, definitely encourage y'all to check that out. But here we are talking specifically about coalition building and water solidarity. And with something as basic as water, I think sometimes the privilege of it can kind of get lost. Or even understanding why water costs the way it costs. I think we just forget because there's so many other things going on. But I think bringing it to water as a basic necessity, where you're learning more and more how that isn't the case for everyone. And when we look at, specifically, our loved ones inside of prisons who are just suffering needlessly because the state's either inability or refusal to do something. And in this specific point is like, provide clean, accessible water to humans has a direct impact on their lives. And it's not just today, it's years of this. And it's also, these are lifetime conditions that some of these folks come out on.

[00:04:29.130] - David

And so we're here today talking about some of these lessons, the victories in this work, because as we're going to go into, it's a history and it's not changing just tomorrow. But how can then we continue to support the mission? And sometimes these grim realities. Some of the work with Soapbox is like, we want to also organize as we're documenting, as we're creating media around this stuff. And so we've had the privilege to be working with the Coalition to Decarcerate. And so this hits a little bit more home than-

[00:04:57.970] - Caullen

Decarcerate where, David?

[00:04:58.730] - David

Decarcerate Illinois. Decarcerate Illinois, specifically.

[00:05:01.210] - Caullen

AKA, CDI.

[00:05:02.100] - David

AKA, CDI. And so maybe that's why it feels a little bit more home. And it's also, we've had closer conversations with the people who are directly being impacted. And so it's like, there's also a level of accountability that I want to hold myself and hold ourselves, as this thing called Soapbox. These are also ways in which we can be in community with people as well, right? Hang out, shoot the shit, and talk our thing. And so really excited to continue this conversation. But anything else you would like to add?

[00:05:29.520] - Caullen

Yeah, I mean, I think with the Coalition to Decarcerate Illinois, it's been fun, interesting over the past couple years. Soapbox being one, documenting lots of the actions, what you see on social media and what have you, but also you, David, being involved in the organizing aspect. And we've had conversations offline about activist versus organizer, what that means and where we place ourselves in that. And I've been on the team of defending you, like, no, you have been organizing. Like the meetings, the spreadsheets, the stuff that's not sexy and cool and out in the thing, you've been doing that. And I want to give you your flowers as far as you really taking a leadership role, from what I've seen, at least, our guests can correct me if I'm wrong, in the campaign. As far as doing some of that organizing, I think it's different from just being an activist. Not just being an activist to produce it, but more than that. And I think it's nice having Soapbox as an entity that can help that infrastructure on the back end, as far as getting funding for the coalition and stuff like that.

[00:06:26.400] - Caullen

And I'm mainly on the outside of that actual organizing work. But it's nice to know that I and we are part of a larger ecosystem of folks and organizations doing that work and can help in different ways. And so it's been nice just seeing the myriad of ways that I, you, and we have to uplift this fight. So that's the one end of how I'm coming into this today. Really excited to kind of learn, and hear everyone talk about the nitty gritty of organizing and stuff. But also, I think for some context, what we do with Soapbox and Bourbon 'n BrownTown is link our work, our community's work, interpersonal relations with folks and experiences we have, and make it contextual on a global level and a larger level. I think, especially for me not knowing the ins and outs of the campaigns, other than what I've seen and talked to you about, thinking about water and what's private, what's public, when it's a necessity, which water always has been for you in life.

[00:07:21.490] - David

We need it.

[00:07:22.830] - David

Why are we paying for this in the first place? And thinking about the water crisis we've had in this country. In the most richest, most powerful country in the world, the most wealthy time in human history on the planet, still not having folks have water. Thinking of our indigenous brothers, sisters, non-binary folks, two spirited folks who have always had this fight before we were- even any of our peoples really on this land rock in the middle of the ocean, have been always doing this work. And then when settler colonialism happens, treaties are broken. Not pointing fingers, not naming names. And so I see a trajectory of indigenous fights for land, for water, naming water as life, saying we can't have land back without having water back and always having this fight.

[00:08:12.620] - David

Then on top of that, we put in city infrastructures in Detroit and Flint and St. Louis and globally and Palestine, Honduras, and all these things that are political- choices of political will that aren't making infrastructure there to sustain life in municipality, in a public facing institution, which is the state. And those, you could call them failures, you could call them intentionally done not to help the people most marginalized. So all those layers, then on top of all that, putting also folks who are inside the most disposable, "folks of the state," how the state sees folks who are incarcerated. And then seeing that as another rung on this thread of power and violence to keep folks from having what they need to survive. And so I just want to lay that context for how I'm coming into it. For not knowing the nitty gritty work that you all have done and thinking through that through line and how we can kind of tease it out on a broader level.

[00:09:07.840] - David

See, that was great. You see this guy? He has a podcast.

[00:09:11.090]

[crosstalk 00:09:12]

[00:09:12.290] - Caullen

Almost our hundredth episode. You know what I'm saying? We do this!

[00:09:13.490] - David

Almost there. Almost there.

[00:09:14.770] - Caullen

With us we have two guests. We have Avalon Betts-Gatson or Gaston, depending on where you're from, where you're coming from. Avalon is a Chicago native, non-licensed attorney, ordained minister and passionate advocate to dismantle, change and build a legal system focused on humane justice and harm reduction, not just punishment. Avalon made her public debut as an advocate at a young age when she convinced her fellow congressional pages to protest apartheid outside of the South African embassy in Washington, DC. This passion against various societal injustices continued throughout her life and was supercharged and focused on the criminal legal system after she was wrongfully convicted in 2015. Avalon later received her bachelor's degree from DePaul University and her JD from John Marshall Law School in Chicago. She is the first known formerly incarcerated board chairperson for Community Renewal Society and is also on the Free Her Campaign Advisory Council. A board member of Chicago Votes, next door neighbor, shout out. A 2022 JLUSA Leading With Conviction Fellow, and much, much more. Avalon, what's goody?

[00:10:22.250] - Avalon

What's good? Guys, thanks for inviting me. I appreciate being in this space with you.

[00:10:28.230] - Caullen

I'm happy to have you here. I'm liking the fit, too. I'm like, first time seeing all the jewelry and everything.

[00:10:33.450] - Avalon

You know I got to represent. I got to represent. I got to represent.

[00:10:38.970] - David

We also have Thomas Hagan. Tommy is the co-director of the REAL Youth Initiative. He has spent the last eight years working to build power with currently incarcerated people in the US. As a high school student in New York City, he co-founded an anti-racist reading group with incarcerated youth at Bronx Hopes Passages Academy and co-led Regis and Riker, a mutual aid donation drive for people incarcerated at Rikers Island. As a student of the University of Chicago, he helped launch the Bridge Writing Workshop, a weekly creative writing workshop at Cook County Jail. Tommy also participated in and co-wrote a published report on Northwestern University's Children and Family Justice Center's Reimagining Youth Justice Project, which hosted over 30 convenings with over 180 incarcerated youth on how they could reimagine youth justice. Part of the Irish diaspora, Tommy is dedicated to ending practices of settler colonialism, imperialism and military occupation. What up, Tommy? How you doing, bro?

[00:11:37.360] - Tommy

What's up, David? What's up, Caullen? Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm really grateful to be here sharing space with you all.

[00:11:44.030] - David

Thank you all so much for joining us. I know this has been in the makings for a minute. So for some of our listeners- and Avalon, we can start with you, I'd love to- you heard a lot of that grounding that Caullen was able to present. Where do you come most into that work? And, yeah, give us a little bit for our listeners to understand a little more.

[00:12:03.450] - Avalon

Yeah, so it's personal for me. I left people behind that are behind the fence right now that don't have access to clean water. And then when their loved ones come to visit them, they don't have access to clean water. Everything that I do is really rooted in the fact that there are people that I know right now experiencing this. And so the urgency of now is important for me. And so I bring that into this space because A) I don't want anybody else to experience what I experience. But then I know that I have people that I know personally that are still experiencing things and I don't want that to continue, just at all. And then I just think about the fact that if the goal is public safety, if that's the goal, and I question that

[00:13:06.960] - Caullen

"if" that's the goal.

[00:13:08.090] - Avalon

I question that as a notion to begin with. But if that is the goal, then make it make sense that the treating of people, of human beings in a way that they can't even have access to water, which is vital to them just living to see another day, how is that conducive to us increasing public safety? Make the through line for me, because I don't see it. It's disconnected in my mind. I ultimately want safe communities, period. And I'm like, how do we get there by poisoning people? I don't understand that. And so I think about it through that kind of macro lens as well. I have the micro, which are my friends that I left behind. And then I have the macro lens of like, wait a minute, everything it seems that we're doing undermines the goal, and no one's interrogating that. And so for me, that's part of why I do this work, why I'm here, why I'm passionate about these things, is because I ultimately do want our communities to have what they need and what they deserve. And everything that we're doing right now, in my opinion, and I'll put it on me, in my opinion, is not getting us there. And in fact, it's actually working to undermine that actual work, in my opinion.

[00:14:35.450] - David

What about you, Tommy? What brings you specifically to this conversation today?

[00:14:40.570] - Tommy

So, like Avalon- it was beautiful what you said, I think the necessity and urgency of abolishing prisons and everything that comes with that comes from the relationships or friendships I have with people inside. I haven't myself been incarcerated, but over the last decade, I've formed some of the people who I consider family to me are still locked up. I go on personal visits routinely with people who are in conditions where they're being poisoned. Like face constant violence, constant medical neglect. And I think, as I've experienced through proximity to my friends, like what my friends are going through and comrades on the inside are going through, I've also just tied it to the larger necessity of ending capitalism, ending colonialism. And how this shit is killing us all. The water crises that are inside prisons are accentuated because of the disposability politics of capitalism.

[00:15:45.360] - Avalon

yes.

[00:15:46.030] - Tommy

You are vulnerable, so you get the worst, right? But it's also spread out everywhere. Capitalism and privatizing essential necessities is killing us all. I don't know if anyone has seen anything about forever chemicals and water supplies? But it's like this product of decades of business lobbies, like shareholders lobbying the federal government to scrap away any regulation on the dumping of hazardous materials into water supplies. And now it's just coming out that pretty much every county in America, their water supplies are contaminated with very high levels of forever chemicals.

[00:16:26.910] - Tommy

And I think about the county that I grew up in, Bergen County in New Jersey, there was always this known thing that 3M or Dupont or some waterproof material manufacturer had dumped a bunch of chemicals into the county water, into the groundwater supply and its well water. So it was like, yeah, don't drink the water. I think about folks who are incarcerated at Bergen County Jail. They've definitely been exposed or need to drink that water to survive. But now it's just coming out that the amount of PFAS in Bergen county water is the highest or top three highest of county water supply in the country. It's like 60 times above the standard amount you should be intaking of PFAS. So that's kind of a tangent, but it's to say that these struggles against water are killing us all, but they're especially urgent and necessary to fight against, kind of the logic of disposability that allow for that in service of privatization and profit for the rich.

[00:17:28.170] - Avalon

I just want to add, because you pointed out something, and I was just having this conversation yesterday, that society tends to want to trick us into thinking that if we target them, that they'll never target you. That you'll never become disposable. And we've known through our history that that's not been the case. So when we allow society to pick others and other-ize what we consider disposable people, at some point they come for you. Your privilege will only carry you so far. And that just goes to the fact that everyone's liberty is intertwined, it is inextricably intertwined. And when we allow what we consider the "disposables" to be targeted and treated in inhumane ways, at some point it's going to be you. You're going to be in that group. And so even if you don't think about it, even if you can't muster up the empathy to be like, okay, I need to care for these other human beings, care for yourself. Care for yourself and be like, wait, if I allow this to happen to them, at some point that finger is going to be pointing at me and I need to stop it now, right?

[00:18:39.110] - Avalon

And history has shown us that over and over and over again, especially through the colonization of people and then lands and all these type of things, that they pick people and then everybody else thinks, well, that's not me, so I'm good. And then the next thing you know, it's you. So that is why it's important that this work cannot be disconnected from the bigger message of "you could be next."

[00:19:04.050] - Caullen

I appreciate you all connecting all of those different but similar fights. And those layers of everything. Disposability politics, the core function of capitalism, it needs a disposability class of people to function. On paper and in actuality, it's not good. It's like, "communism doesn't work in practice." Like, well, capitalism doesn't work on paper or in practice. If work is like, having people live a healthy, happy lives and living a long time. And the privatization of it, too, we see that with other- with the water crises, I feel like it's obviously talking about a lot of different connected and similar crises, and this one is particular. But I feel like we use that word a lot for a kind of catchall for everything. This is man made. Very intentionally man made.

[00:19:59.600] - Avalon

Absolutely.

[00:20:00.130] - Caullen

And arguably, certain climate disasters are also man made for decades of capitalism and the climate. But I think about how we... I'll take a step back and think about what you mentioned as far as empathy for others. And then if you're shitty and you don't even have that, it's also going to come for you.

[00:20:19.030] - Avalon

Right.

[00:20:19.270] - Caullen

It's also affecting you right now, too. And we talk about prison abolition and just how prisons operate in general. Yeah, someone's inside, it's not just them that are going through it- their family, their friends, they have to take money- they have to work more to get stuff inside, to the commissary. A community outside of these walls that actually is in the operating society is also suffering. And so these ripple effects of it.

[00:20:45.840] - Tommy

It also ties into the water crisis in the sense that when there is a crisis of the spread of infectious disease, the response is like, we're not going to control this. We're not going to release people. We're just going to lock them down. And on some units, like at Robinson Correctional Center, where my friend is incarcerated, they're on a dorm unit. If one person gets sick, there's a hundred people in that dorm who are sleeping open air. Everybody's going to get sick. So it's like that same logic of disposability and environmental disaster. It's like, everybody in that zone of intensified violence is subjected to it.

[00:21:23.100] - Avalon

And I just want to note that low security prisons, most of them are in dormitory style. So I, too, slept in an open air dorm. And just to put it in context, I was released in March of 2020. So, right when COVID was really hitting. And I was afraid that they were going to keep me because of COVID, past my date that they were going to keep me because that's the mentality. So to just add to what Tommy is talking about, when you think about a pandemic and really when the best solution is to get people home, the mentality is, no, we're going to lock you in your cages or lock you down. Even in your dorm where you can't move, you really don't have access to good water.

[00:22:17.160] - Avalon

Now, I don't even have- because you have certain areas where staff mostly are, where the water may be a little bit better. Well, now you don't even have access to that. Then they limit your access to commissary because we're on lockdown. So now we can't get water in. So you can't even buy if you can afford to buy it. Or if you and your family can even afford to buy it in the first place. So let's make that clear, that not even everybody can afford to buy water. And if you can afford to buy water, now you only can buy one case. Okay, and how long is one case supposed to last? And then they limit showers. They do all of these things in a way that they say is supposed to promote safety and security in the prison, but what it actually is doing is causing more harm. It's causing more actual physical and biological harm to the individuals because you don't have access to the little bitty things that you would otherwise have access to. And so it is very important to understand that this ongoing pandemic is really having an impact on people.

[00:23:19.920] - Avalon

And they are using solitary confinement as a way to be- as a medical protection. It's just so many layers to this, but it's all rooted in the culture that is behind the system that we call justice in America. These things are done on purpose, because in their minds they literally believe that it's a deterrent. That if we make your life the hellish we can make it, that it is going to deter people from committing crimes of survivorship. Like, I'm hungry, you think I'm not going to steal this? You know what I'm saying? They honestly think that if we make this life hell for you AND your family AND your loved ones. We can't miss that point, too, that somehow it'll make us all safer. And they use these as opportunities to make that experience worse on purpose.

[00:24:20.450] - David

I mean, thank you guys, for both that. And that's kind of where- it wasn't even CDI, it was formerly something else- that's where the organization started taking place. Why? Because people, loved ones, started realizing the situation that was taking place after March 2020, when the governor was like, yo, we're locking everything down. And so from there, yes, the pandemic itself is still ongoing, but the lockdowns, at least, were removed to a certain point. And so there's still organizing that needs to take place. What happens? There's a shift within to then moving to the Coalition to Decarcerate Illinois, which then is a group of loved ones of the incarcerated, currently and formerly incarcerated individuals, activists, and creatives working towards abolition. And fighting for the rights and dignity of currently incarcerated individuals and their loved ones. So this gave us then an opportunity as an organization- or as a coalition to change past or move into what we want.

[00:25:15.130] - David

And I think, if I'm not mistaken, there was first a detection of Legionella back in 2021, right? This was after already so many people were like, yo, this water is shit, someone do something about it. And so I think we use that as an opportunity. And, Tommy, I'd love to hear what you remember from the start of it. As this is clearly what we need to move on. IDOC clearly ain't doing shit. There's Legionella in this spot. All these cases are hitting. And so then organizing took place. And then that's where we kind of see the current trajectory of CDI, as well as what we're kind of calling The Water Campaign. But, yeah. Anything you want to add to that?

[00:25:53.710] - Tommy

I guess I'll add in the evolution from- because I kind of came on after it had switched to Coalition to Decarcerate. But I think there was a carryover in the priorities of how we were organizing. In the sense that people- and they were led from people on the inside, like, what was coming on the inside. But there was still a hope that because COVID continued to be a crisis inside prisons, there was some avenue for release, whether it be through clemency, like some form of executive release. So I remember early on we were agitating for the governor to sign clemencies or move on clemencies that were sitting on his desk that he had kind of froze on because of political ambition.

[00:26:37.730] - David

And then, for our listeners, what is clemency?

[00:26:39.700] - Avalon

So clemency is the bigger category. So clemency includes pardons as well as commutations. So that's the big bucket. The big bucket is both of those things. And then you have the two categories, which are pardons and commutations. So commutations are saying, hey, we feel that you have served enough of the sentence that was meted out against you by the state. And then a pardon is saying, hey, we are going to eliminate this burden of this conviction on you altogether. And so one has larger and more wide reaching effects versus the other. So the other says, we'll let you get out of prison sooner, and that's a commutation. And then the pardon says, hey, we're going to relieve you from this conviction altogether.

[00:27:30.550] - David

Thank you. Thank you.

[00:27:31.150] - Avalon

But they're all clemencies.

[00:27:33.580] - David

Correct. And I'm just naming it for our listeners to understand. This is a power that the governor has had since to enact, move on, et cetera.

[00:27:42.570] - Avalon

And it's constitutional. It's written in our state constitution.

[00:27:48.070] - Tommy

And I mean also to think about a lot of- the inside advisory board have been locked up for decades, right? And if granted clemency would still have to navigate with a criminal conviction. Like, establishing life on the outside while hounded by parole, MSR, and all of the obstacles that are put in place to attack and harass returning citizens. So it's not even that huge of an ask, right? Within the context of this assault on incarcerated people and the potential for dying from COVID in that period. The ask for a review of clemency or some form of expedited release, they just wanted to frame it as not that big of an ask.

[00:28:30.900] - Tommy

But secondly, so I think kind of carrying over the priority of organizing around this crisis, we were demanding that the governor move on clemencies because he had stalled looking at anybody's clemency in the lead up to the governor race. It's also a whole level of fucked up.

[00:28:54.560] - David

It's another episode.

[00:28:57.130] - Tommy

Opportunists like JB Pritzker, just prioritizing incarcerated people when it's politically viable for him. And then as months went on the reports of legionella in Illinois prisons started coming out. But also inside Graham Correctional Center, Shawnee Correctional Center, people were like, hey, the water- as had been before, right? But being like, hey, the water is either becoming cross contaminated with sewage systems or just always, gray, murky, brown, with particulate in it. Stinky. So with those data from the inside, plus starting to see some reporting on it, I think we coalesced around like, hey, this is a crisis that we can organize around and press for prison closure and release of people.

[00:29:51.950] - David

Yeah. And then Avalon, what do you remember about early on? Because I remember- because our first thing is we made a letter to the governor signed by CDI. And then from there we're looking at NRDC, Uptown Law Center, yourself. So anything from that?

[00:30:06.720] - Avalon

I don't know how early on I was involved in it, but I know by the time I got involved, we were in the process of really trying to shift and put pressure on the Illinois EPA to actually do some inspections. I do want to note, because I remember when Legionella, we had an outbreak in some of our senior facilities. The response was completely different. They were like, we're going to fix this, and we're going to fix this now. When it was like that- and it has been consistent like this, again, because people in prisons are considered disposable. That, oh, we don't really worry about fixing it and fixing it now. And I feel like the response should be the same. Because we're still talking about human beings. And I just didn't think that is absolutely crazy. But then the shift, when I got involved, we were really trying to put the pressure on, just go and inspect, right? And do a real inspection. Not this... Oh, I'm going to look..

[00:31:16.460] - Avalon

Because let me just tell you, I'm going to tell you from a person who's on the inside, when outside people come to do an inspection, they clean up the place. They do everything possible to make sure that that place, it looks as best as it can. And they direct people to the places that they want to direct them to. So if we know that this water faucet has the best water coming out of it, that's where you're going to go take your test from. The pressure for us was like, you guys need to really kind of do your job here. And that's when I got involved. And I just feel like we've been on this roller coaster ride... this past, I would say I've been involved probably about almost a year now. It's just been really a roller coaster ride. But it all goes back to, I think, the ingrained otherization that we have just accepted in society for whole groups of people.

[00:32:15.290] - Caullen

What I'm hearing is that we need Hugo from Bob's Burgers.

[00:32:18.870]

[Sound clip from Bob's Burgers] Hello, Bob. Guess what time it is? It's 3:45. Wrong, I was doing a thing! Oh, sorry. It's inspection time, I was going to say. This prep area is damp. I just cleaned it. That makes sense. You look damp. These lettuce heads are stacked weird. Is that illegal? No, it's just stupid. What do we have here? Rags. Wash your greasy rags. Stop throwing them at me, Hugo. Also, you missed every time.

[00:32:47.100] - Caullen

To do the inspection. Because Hugo would not miss a goddamn thing!

[00:32:51.000] - Avalon

That part.

[00:32:52.100] - Caullen

That's what immediately what came to mind when you said that. I'm like, oh, we need him and his sidekick to come through.

[00:32:57.480] - Caullen

I appreciate that, knowing those details about what you all have seen, your experience with the campaign and then naming some of the things you named. As it started with End Illinois Prison Lockdown and then morphed in the CDI. COVID, as we know, was a super acute crisis, right. But as we know, as people in movement and organizers and stuff, it highlighted all the inequalities, all the intentional devastation and oppression that's in these systems that we know to be true, that we were kind of yelling about for years and different campaigns prior to COVID, and then it kind of puts everything on display in a way. With the abolitionist lens and organizing praxis and being very clear and direct about that, but also having goals that are, again, unfortunately, such low hanging fruit. From the outside looking in, it seems like you can get other organizations and folks to get involved that maybe have legal power, maybe electoral power, maybe other powers like downstate to organize and to support the fight, that may not be claiming what we claim as ideology and practices.

[00:34:05.790] - Caullen

I think! I'm thinking about my experience. I'm thinking about No Cop Academy years ago, and seeing- you didn't have to be a card carrying abolitionist to be part of it. But that was part of the practice that we didn't back down from. Seeing similar stuff with Stop Cop City and the broader tint that that can bring in. And I see it as an opening the door for folks. Maybe you're not an abolitionist, but you live in Atlanta and you're like, the government should be more transparent. They're not. Maybe you care about democracy. It's not democratic. And so I'm curious, with all that from those other fights currently and previously and the practices in which you guys organize, how have you brought in other orgs or folks that have skills that maybe us in this room don't have to push us forward? As far as water access for folks inside, and or other things that CDI has done. Does that make sense?

[00:35:00.370] - David

Yeah, it kind of does. I think from my understanding, for us, we see the reports. And I think it was just who's connected where? And if I remember correctly, I think it was Alan Mills. Shout out, Uptown. Who already has been doing some of this work as far as being an attorney to represent those inside. And so I think it was a connection there. And then someone made a connection to NRDC.

[00:35:25.420] - David

And NRDC: National Resource Defense Council. They're a giant national entity that has all this capacity and power. And I think they really took a lead in terms of FOIA-ing- so Freedom of Information Act. As well as providing surveys and other information that we, I'm assuming in this room, don't do. I had no idea what the fuck they were talking about half the time, to be honest. And I think when it comes to that, that's an interesting part of what this coalition kind of ended up being. And so for me, it was very different. I never worked with attorneys that closely. I think that's kind of what you were talking about in terms of what are other things that we've done? And I think this work and being able to show up with people who have the ability to talk through all of the mess and data and specifics and tie it to, your point, we need people to be safe. We need people to be- you know what I'm saying? I think because there's that alignment, I think that's been very interesting to see in terms of this group of folks that I don't know if they would work together in any other place.

[00:36:37.090] - David

But curious to hear on y'all's end, anything around coalition? Whether that's comparing this one to other ones you've worked with, or things you're seeing for this moving forward.

[00:36:46.760] - Tommy

The water crisis presents a very accessible thing to organize around for a variety of folks within their own political ideologies or frameworks. That's an opportunity for us to bring in a larger net and kind of raise public consciousness around the fact that prisons need to be closed down. And this isn't just about the water, this is about spread of infectious diseases, medical neglect, lack of nutritious food, constant violence, cavity searches inside. All that, it's an inroad into that. And there's also a downside of the transition away from COVID to water crisis that, yeah, the public attention around COVID and prisons kind of fell off. Right? They're like, oh yeah, COVID's gone. But it's not really gone inside prisons. It's just hard to organize around because people are like, oh. You know, they don't really care as much. So water becomes the fact that there's more verifiable data around poisonous water, it becomes an opportunity to bring in a larger net.

[00:37:51.260] - Tommy

But there's also the risk of as you bring in that larger net, you also have other people trying to determine the goals that are outside of abolition that might be more about prison renovations and strictly like that. So there's a struggle. And you see that a lot more out of the professional class of people who are doing it like lawyers, watchdogs, et cetera. And I'll credit you, Avalon, for really sticking to that point on the call with lawyers and stuff. Every time there's any kind of inkling of, "this is just getting clean water," Avalon, you've stood the ground and been like, no, this is about abolition. This is not just about water, this is many different crises that are going on that are seen in there.

[00:38:42.070] - Avalon

Yeah. Because I can code switch. I mean, I can legal code switch. I went to law school, I practiced law, I know that world. And I know how they think. So I'm the inside player, because I got the inside knowledge. And so I call it code switching because I can switch between really understanding what was talked about in those conversations because I've lived in that world, I'm a recovering attorney. And then also embracing the world that I exist in now and that I live in now. I feel like you have to, as a person who lived in that world, if you do not be like, "you shall not pass." If you don't do that, you will get run over. And the reason why is because- I'm calling out myself more than anybody else is that that whole industry has taught you to be arrogant and full of yourself in a lot of ways. And so when you come into these spaces, you kind of come in with that persona. And especially if you are a person of color practicing law or have practiced law, you come in with that even more so, because it is a system that was not built for you to be Black in. Not really.

[00:40:10.130] - Avalon

So I have to hold the line. And I feel like that's part of my role, is to be, no, I'm drawing a little line in the sand, and this is where we can't pass.

[00:40:20.650]

[sound clip from Lord of the Rings] You shall not pass!

[00:40:25.030] - Avalon

Because it'll get watered down very quickly. Because in the practice of law, that is the world that you live in. You're more likely going to lose than win. Let's just be honest about that. And so what you do is you try to just get any wins any way that you can, because the system is set up for you to lose. And so you're trained to think, what little win can I get out of this? Then it becomes a problem, right? When we are like, no, we're talking about letting people go home and shutting down prisons. And they're like, well, can we just get bottled water? No no, we cannot just get bottled water because that is not enough. A) we can never bring in enough bottled water to mitigate the harm that's being caused to our incarcerated loved ones. It's just not possible.

[00:41:24.650] - Avalon

We'd have to put a whole Nestlé plant on the grounds of every institution to be able to pull that off. For them to shower, brush their teeth, drink- I mean, you know what I'm saying? Cook. You think about that, that is an impossible task. And so that is not even a low hanging fruit as far as I'm concerned. That is trying to put a bandaid on a stab wound. You just have to be able to draw that line because just how the legal system in and of itself operates, they're used to, okay, what little win can we get? Because you lose far more, far more than you win.

[00:42:08.390] - David

That's so interesting because- thank you for all that. Because I think for us that aren't attorneys, I think it was exciting in seeing all the ways that we could be supported. And then it started feeling to a point where it's like, oh, they're waiting on us to see what other data we've collected. And it's like, yo, it's shit, I don't know what else you all want to hear. Well, what else are you hearing from inside? That's what they're telling us! The same shit they told us last week.

[00:42:30.419] - Avalon

It's the same thing.

[00:42:31.490] - David

To that point, we can't code switch, right? But it is incredibly, just inspiring. And we feel supported in those spaces because of that. And I think for the elephant in the room, the changes that we need to make now moving forward as a campaign, with the exit of NRDC due to political kerfuffles. And so to our understanding, it's like, the big cheeses were like, yo, what are y'all doing? But like, oh, we're helping out water. It's like, oh, but y'all can't do that ultimately. That's basically what happened with NRDC- what they're claiming. We're kind of left with like, oh, shit, OK, well, how do we move forward?

[00:43:13.620] - David

And so just when we're thinking as organizers, as we're thinking about coalition building, these are real things that are going on. And so how do we move on? And it's been very interesting to see, and I think it's incredible... Again, Avalon, it's just helpful to have folks like you on this side of the line helping hold the line. Because I think sometimes- not that CDI wasn't ever discredited or whatever- but in some of those conversations, like, how much can we actually hold to what we want in terms of like, yo, this is how we want to agitate. And people were like, hmm, is that really what we want to do? It's like, yes, exactly what we want to do!

[00:43:48.160] - Avalon

Right.

[00:43:48.540] - David

Show up to their houses and shit. And so it was new to see those tensions and feel that as we continue going. Because I think the most recent thing with that- so the Public Safety Committee here in Chicago held a hearing on IDOC. I don't know what specifically, but they were looking at a variety of pieces. One of the ones I was looking at was Wexford and their trash record over the last ten years here in IDOC. And IDOC is Illinois Department of Corrections. And that's 13 facilities, main facilities.

[00:44:27.670] - Tommy

I think the notice of violation?

[00:44:30.630] - David

I'm just saying how big IDOC is. The violations themselves, I think, are 13.

[00:44:33.950] - Avalon

It's 13 violations. 13 institutions received NOVs.

[00:44:38.290] - David

NOVs, so Notice of Violations from Illinois EPA on like, yeah, your shit is bad, we got to fix it. And so..

[00:44:43.870] - Caullen

Your shit do stink.

[00:44:44.400] - Avalon

Well, I think they just said, yeah, your stuff is kind of bad. I think that's really kind of what it said. It really didn't say, let's fix it. I think it was more like, your stuff is kind of bad. We can't look bad, so we're going to just point you out and say, this doesn't look great, and then end the story. So I just feel like in reading some of that information, I actually had to stop because it just was really kind of making me pissed off. Because you saw the CYA in that situation, right? The Illinois EPA was brought in because US EPA was like, dog, what's going on in Illinois with your water? And so the Illinois EPA couldn't look bad, right? So then they go and do it because they got to check the box to make the US EPA not be looking at them, side eyeing them. So that's what they did. But for me, especially when I was looking at from the most recent thing and I was looking at what they did, it was really just like the surface. It was the minimum amount that needed to be done to get the US EPA off their butts.

[00:45:58.730] - Avalon

And so to me, it just goes to show how entrenched in all of these systems A) white supremacy, I'm going to name that just on GP. But then also the inherent otherism of people who are incarcerated that we don't have to do more than that. All we have to do is enough to keep the lights on for us. To make sure we get an appropriation line item, to make sure we get to keep employed. And we can say that we're doing our job when in fact we're just really doing, at least for incarcerated people, we're just doing the bare bare minimum. David, I love you giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm going to have to bring you in a little bit because really it was the absolute bare minimum. They did not do as thorough of an inspection as I would have hoped in light of the fact that the US EPA was like, dog, what's up? You know what I'm saying? But it also goes to show that they clearly knew that the US EPA was only coming after them a little bit, like, you're making us look bad, like, do something here. So that's really what, in my opinion, that was what that was about. And I wish there had been more.

[00:47:28.290] - Avalon

But unfortunately, I feel like, how coalition building is going to have to look for us, it's going to have to look different. We're going to need to be doing some guerrilla style stuff. We need to start getting people in IEPA. We need to start getting people in the US EPA. We need to start infiltrating these systems with our people as we build our people on the ground to agitate- I call it compassionate agitation- to really make a difference. Because I feel like if we continue down the path, I keep thinking of it like this- and I'm sorry, I'm kind of going, but I'll land soon, I promise- I saw this documentary about, for a whole generation, they were homeschooling kids and indoctrinating them with a certain belief. And the goal was for them to then go out, go to colleges, go to law school and infiltrate the government. And this whole generation of people are now US Congress people. They're in heads of agencies and things like that. And I think about, and they're doing that in order to change that policy, to be more in line with their religious ideology. And I think about-

[00:48:41.980] - Caullen

Can I ask, what religious sector you're talking about or what?

[00:48:45.440] - Avalon

So it's the Christian evangelism.

[00:48:49.350] - Caullen

Okay, sure.

[00:48:52.090] - Avalon

And it was a long term goal. These 30 year olds, they started when they were kids and babies. And so for like 30 years they've been doing this. And I feel like that is the path that we're going to have to start thinking about. Thinking about is like, not just coalition building through the traditional lens, but how are we coalition building and putting people in positions of power to be able to kind of change things so that we're not just getting a check the box IEPA inspection, we're actually getting a real inspection that says, what the H is going on here? What are you all doing? All this crap is bad. You all need to do something about it, right? Like, shut this shit down. You know what I'm saying? That's to me, the ultimate goal. And I think we have to think bigger than how we have been thinking in the past. That's my takeaway from this, because other people are playing a whole long game and we're kind of not playing that same long game.

[00:49:53.150] - Tommy

I wanted to add, because back to the notices of violations of what they actually said. That I think also completely rebuts the idea that you can renovate your way out of this, is that a lot of this stuff, it's bare minimum, but it's maintenance related. It's saying the COs that are supposed to be doing this aren't flushing the water systems, right? Or the facility is not flushing the water systems, they're not treating- and I don't know the full water system terminology, but the sewage treatment is not being upkept. So you could say that, yeah, you could get people in there that do their jobs and do that, and suddenly the water systems-

[00:50:29.090] - Avalon

I don't mean in prisons, let me be clear. I don't mean in prisons.

[00:50:32.980] - Tommy

That's my point though, is that this should be insight into the actual practice, what these systems are designed to do and what the people who are fulfilling those rules are designed to do.

[00:50:46.560] - Avalon

Exactly.

[00:50:46.960] - Tommy

And even if someone goes in and is like, I'm going to be the good CO, right? They're going to end up doing cavity searches, abuses...

[00:50:55.340] - Avalon

Or leaving. I mean, I can tell you personally, we had a physician- and this is just anecdotal so you can understand the depth of the culture inside of prisons. Now, mind you, I was in what they call Camp Cupcake, which was not a cupcake, let me just be very clear about that.

[00:51:12.081] - Caullen

Muffin? Scone?

[00:51:12.630] - Avalon

It was none of that. It was none of that. But the main doctor there told us that she only wanted to keep us alive so that we could do our time. That she wasn't there to make us better, she wasn't there to help us be healthy. She needed to just keep us breathing so that we could finish our sentence.

[00:51:28.720] - Caullen

That's some straight Willie Lynch slavery mentality.

[00:51:32.570] - Avalon

Correct.

[00:51:33.280] - Caullen

Almost verbatim.

[00:51:34.120] - Avalon

And she led the whole health department. The whole health department. So we had a physician assistant come in that really- her plan was to come in and help us. She was like, no, I want to make these women better. I want to really pour into them, I want to do my job. My oath, my hippocratic oath, I want to actually live up to that. And she lasted six months. So that's what happens. And so, no, when I say, I mean like infiltrating, like the Illinois EPA, infiltrating the US EPA. I want prisons to just not exist. I don't think that we really need them.

[00:52:08.900] - Avalon

But to get back to you, that's the culture. So when you do have people who do want to come into that system to actually make a difference and actually reduce the harm that's happening in those systems, they don't even make it. And the ones that do make it end up just capitulating to the culture that's just part and parcel of those systems. Because they need to survive, too. They get hazed, they get bullied into being what they are supposed to be in that system, into adopting that culture. So it is not possible to infiltrate a prison system and make it better, period.

[00:52:41.570] - Tommy

Yeah. And I want to say, too, that I wasn't responding to that point so much as responding to what the notices, the violations say, which is more of the necessity of abolition. And this is said a lot, but it's not broken, it's operating as designed to. And what you said with the medical officer who was like, yeah, we're only trying to keep you alive to do your time.

[00:53:06.720] - Caullen

Some Willie Lynch shit, bro. Aaghh.

[00:53:08.650] - Tommy

But it's like the design of it is to produce people that are going to be cycling in and out of prisons. It's not designed to have people get home and restore. No. It's like, [crosstalk 00:53:19]. The Correction Officers Union, they'll say no to anything that could actually advance meaningful decarceration. Reduce the prison population because it means prison closure, it means loss of jobs. So it's like the actual product of the system is producing people that will consistently be targeted, criminalized, and provide the source of these industries that are circulating around, reaping huge profits for COs who make- it's not a low paying job. Some of them, they make 80, 90, 100, 120K.

[00:53:52.570] - Avalon

Especially for the areas that they're in.

[00:53:54.280] - Tommy

Exactly. So there's this whole industry around it that the product is literally....

[00:53:58.960] - Avalon

Bodies in bunks.

[00:54:00.790] - Tommy

Yeah, exactly.

[00:54:01.810] - Avalon

And I just also want to add that I remember reading that WBEZ special where we're talking about the prison towns in Illinois. And, how do we get there? And even when presented with the opportunity to say, listen, if we close down this prison, but we're going to give you other jobs, we're going to upskill you, we're going to give you better paying jobs with less stress and all this other kind of stuff, and the people in the prison town is like, yeah, nah, we don't want that. We need this prison because the prison is part and parcel of our identity as a town. So they can't even divorce themselves from the fact that they are a prison town, to be any other kind of town. And so for them to not have that prison is to lose a limb.

[00:54:44.010] - Avalon

And I just was thinking, like, man, wow, that is crazy talk, first and foremost. But above and beyond that, the indoctrination that went into making people think that, hey, I can't exist apart from- I can't live in this town, and our town does not have an identity apart from having a prison. And when you think about the fact that even the Americans Corrections Association says that the average life expectancy is 62.4 years, so it's ten years less than what the national average is for people who work in prisons? I don't even understand that. How do we want to keep asking people to be in that situation? Not that I'm.. I'm not a CO cheerleader, but I'm just saying I am a cheerleader for human beings. And if we're asking them to, hey, sacrifice ten years off your life, to do what? To what end? Is absolutely crazy. It is absolutely crazy.

[00:55:44.130] - Tommy

And it goes to what we were talking about before of like, this shit is targeted to induce premature death to vulnerable people. Targeted people. That's racist, that's rooted to white supremacy, settler colonialism, but it's also killing the settlers who are down there. It's wild. Driving down to any prison I visit downstate, there's this weird reference to indigenous people, right? There's like, an indigenous trail name, right? It's all white people, right? And then you have the prison that is this zone of violence and poison. So you have literally the transformation of removal of people from their land, from their rights to water, and then the exporting of these zones of poison. That are poisoning not just the people that are extracted and separated from their families and put there, but it's also these settlers who become wedded to like, I need to do this... and survive, and this is my privilege. It's fucked up and speaks to the necessity of-

[00:56:49.040] - Avalon

Shutting it down.

[00:56:50.290] - Caullen

Even there's an economically viable solution. If you don't have this prison, here's how you can survive. Because your economic anxiety now, wanting to have food and pay rent, that's real. Even though you're committing it to this institution that is inherently violent, your need to have money for stuff is real. We have the solution, nah, but I still want the prison. And that's something new to me. I didn't really know that.

[00:57:09.660] - Caullen

I was going to pose a question about folks who live and who rely on this, through our current economic system, when the prison is burned down, which it should be, what happens then? I think we need to ask that more and talk about that. And having you recognizing like, I'm not a CO apologist, but they're still people. And if we're going to be abolitionists, and we're going to have these conversations, and we're going to talk about it, we have to think about all the things. And one of the things that I always think about, too, is when folks are like, oh, if you adapt "abolish the police" or the prison industrial complex in general, we have to change everything. Like, exactly.

[00:57:44.150] - Avalon

Exactly. Yes! You're almost there!

[00:57:47.250] - Caullen

It's a hard yes, but this is unsustainable.

[00:57:49.920] - Avalon

Unsustainable.

[00:57:50.570] - Caullen

And I think we've mentioned ways that are really practical and grounded as far as, we can't keep doing this. It's unsustainable, the only option is abolition. But linking a time- what you said- about white supremacy hurts white people, patriarchy hurts men. All the -isms in any oppression, the systems of violence, they hurt everybody. And that's what we're talking about with all of this.

[00:58:14.830] - Caullen

And with something that was mentioned earlier- I think for listeners, I think if you listen to B'nB, you probably know this, but slavery is legal. Globally, and especially including the United States. Just the language that the medical person you mentioned said about, straight from the Willie Lynch diaries. Willie Lynch was a West Indies enslaver who wrote a lot about how to keep a slave longer and make them more productive. And really all these really horrifying ideology and practices for folks that owned enslaved people, really across the globe, but especially West Indies and in America- if you're unfamiliar with Willie Lynch. But the fact that that language carries through to today, to modern day slavery, as well as you can argue outside of being incarcerated in capitalist structures for living and jobs and not paying people a living wage, but also giving them just enough so they're pacified.

[00:59:16.590] - Caullen

So just with this conversation, I'm so... mad and excited because there's so many connections. I was gonna mention it earlier, when you mentioned Wexford Health. As we are in coalition in all these varied ways, organizations and people, and trying to keep the abolitionist praxies, as well as bring in folks that can help in the legal world and whatever. And that being there, there's tension, right? I feel like we wouldn't do that if we didn't have to. And they're doing the same thing, right? Wexford Health, private entity working with IDOC. We mentioned the very crises we've seen in our lifetimes. Then we see how capitalists come and try to privatize. And especially, you know, from World War II on, with neoliberalism, that's like, a core tenet of neoliberalism. We're seeing that in Hawaii right now. We've seen that in Puerto Rico. We've seen that- we see it all the time.

[01:00:14.470] - Avalon

All the time.

[01:00:15.590] - Caullen

Naomi Klein says, what? "To combat disaster capitalism, we need disaster collectivism." I think that's what y'all are really doing in a really real way, in a principled way. And so I'm just elated by all the connections, the meso, the micro, the macro, as well as just connecting the different fights while honoring them at the same time. I think it's important.

[01:00:36.730] - Avalon

I just want to add that I just think that one of the biggest lessons for me in our most recent developments- when NRDC decided that they no longer share the same goals that we shared as a coalition- is that we always need to be transparent in the front end to be like, okay, how far are you guys willing to go in this work? And then really keeping them contained in that space. So that what I felt like happened, and it was a lesson I think that we learned, is that we became dependent upon them thinking that they were committed to the ultimate goals. And then we found out that, oh, well, maybe not so much. And I'm proud of us in maintaining our principles in these new developments to be like, well, we're not going to undermine our ultimate goal of decarceration and abolition just to keep this relationship on this level. And I think that having that open conversation on the front end to be like, okay, what are you all really down with? And I think that there was a little bit of difference there, because the people that we were working directly with were down with everything.

[01:02:06.145] - David

Yeah, they were about it.

[01:02:06.550] - Avalon

They were about it. But I think that once it got up higher is where it became impossible. It became no longer a possibility to continue to work together. And I think that having that conversation to be like, okay, we need you to make sure you know how far you can go with this, on the front end. Because everybody gets excited. You get excited when you're forming these new relationships and you're like, oh, man, I got this lawyer and that kind of stuff.

[01:02:34.610] - Avalon

But I'm going to share a secret that my former colleagues are going to be very mad at me about, is that you don't have to go to law school, you don't have to be a lawyer, to understand lawyering. You don't. I feel like we, as activists and organizers, we need to start at doing that education. So that people- because it's not necessary. It's gatekeeping. It's gatekeeping! And people are like, Avalon, I can't believe you saying that. I've been having conversations, especially with people of color who want to go into the legal profession, and I'm like, let me tell you what it's really about. And then you can make that decision from an informed perspective. And I think that we owe that to one another. Because I didn't get that real talk before I got a house to go to law school. So I just think that we need to have those conversations. But I think that us as organizers and as we are building coalitions and thinking about that, we need to be thinking about, okay, how do we bring that knowledge into our space? Because it's great to have the people, but it's better to have the knowledge, I think.

[01:03:46.200] - Avalon

From the standpoint, because then we can avoid that ultimate fork in the road where people are going to have to decide, are we going right? Or are we going left? And I think if we take that knowledge and bring that knowledge and make that knowledge a part of the coalition, how do you do FOIAs? How do you do that? And use those current systems and infrastructure to the extent that we need to use them. But really begin to bring that power to the people, I feel like is really the way forward for coalition building in the future. That's just my opinion, because I feel like the more we continue to keep that power in those selected gate keeped spaces, it'll stay there. The more we take it and be like, no, that's ours to have, then the more we can use that and grow it and deploy it in the way that we need to deploy it. Because we are facing political headwinds. All of these things are happening and we are trying to figure out, okay, how do we make this do what it do? In the current circumstances? And I think that part of that has to be taking that knowledge, that expertise, and bringing it into the coalition and bringing it into the hands of the people.

[01:05:05.890] - Caullen

Less locks, more keys!

[01:05:08.190] - Avalon

Less locks, more keys.

[01:05:09.750] - Caullen

I've had a thread in my dome skull for like 20 minutes now, that I'm going to try to put together. So bear with me. But I love that, and I agree with that. And I think, again, outside-looking-in a little bit from my perspective, from the campaign and stuff, just doing spreadsheets and shit here and there and you know, David, random things. What I saw was that y'all had a Teaching With Benji Hart- shout out, B'nB Alum- about abolition, "Abolition 101" training series. I think political education is super important.

[01:05:44.420] - Caullen

That's kind of why part of what we do with Soapbox and B'nB and stuff as well as, try to have a good time, make some movies. But poli-ed is so important, especially with this campaign and coalition that has, again, a very direct, clear, abolitionist praxies; but also doing all these other things that may be carrying other folks who maybe do not agree to do, or do not agree or whatever. But are still aiming for this- trying to aim for the same goal, right? So I think about Benji having that Abolition 101 series, I think 1) just super important. And 2) Tommy, earlier, you kind of, I don't know if it's intentional or not, but you kind of paraphrased Ruth Wilson Gilmore's definition of racism. A disproportionate spread of death for certain groups of people, right? Which is like my- we have a favorite definition of racism. That's my favorite because I think it explains a lot of things.

[01:06:37.040] - Caullen

And so she leads with that. And then what I, and I think what a lot of us have learned from her as well, is abolitionist presence. And so when I think about this water access fight and struggles, and the myriad interconnected struggles that we've talked about, it's inherently an abolitionist fight because it's about presence of life affirming or resource. And then with that, making life affirming institutions and systems that can do that, and that being public and free and for the people in a really real way. And I love y'all's back and forth earlier about clarifying like, no, I want people with power, with these ideals in systems like the Illinois EPA, the US EPA. Which, on paper and should be a life for being institution, probably should be totally revamped. But it is for a good thing, or it's supposed to be. Making those accountability measures, whereas prisons are not. So I think when we talk about abolition, it is making life affirming institutions, making resources spread and free and all the things we know to be true.And then with that, taking down prisons and police and carceral institutions and logics.

[01:07:47.570] - Caullen

I was lucky enough to see Ruth Wilson Gilmore a couple of years ago. It was 2019, actually, because it was during or right after the CTU strike and protest. And if for those that don't know, CTU is a dope, super powerful union. Chicago Teachers Union in Chicago. And they've had so much success and I've learned a lot from them over the years. They're doing all the things.

[01:08:09.500] - Avalon

Got the whole mayor.

[01:08:10.900] - Caullen

Got a whole ass mayor. Whole ass mayor. Shout out. But what she mentioned during that time was that- she was like, I'm sure there are a lot of abolitionist CTU members. I don't think that's a small percentage. But not all those folks probably consider themselves abolitionists, they just want support for their students, for themselves. And she's like, this, whether they call that or not, is an abolitionist fight, because we are pouring into young people. We are pouring into getting people what they need to survive and be well. And I think about that a lot lately as far as folks who may not call themselves certain things or agree completely with the folks in this room, but it's like, but what you're doing is abolition in practice. We'll get to the bigger practices stuff later and everything like that. But that's what doing the work is, right? I think it's the theory in practice. I think both are necessarily needed, but it's like, let's do the work first. We'll make our theory and ideology more rigid as it goes on. So I think about that and presence and how all these things are part of abolition, whether we're calling it that or not.

[01:09:20.610] - Caullen

And then also at that same talk she mentioned this idea of meanwhile. She's like, things are always happening all the time in other places, in the same place, globally, with different institutions and fights and whatever. But it's like, and meanwhile this is happening. We're fighting for water, for our incarcerated family members and folks in Illinois, and meanwhile, Palestinian folks are having their water shut off by settlers in the Gaza Strip. And meanwhile, Trump's running for fucking office. And meanwhile, the RICO trial that-

[01:09:57.060] - Avalon

I'm waiting for the first MAGA abolitionist, though. I'm waiting. I'm waiting for the first MAGA abolitionist! Listen, I'm not saying- listen, they don't want me to breathe, as a Black woman. They're not down for me as a person. But I am waiting to hear for the first MAGA to be like, you know what? FTP! Like, I'm waiting!

[01:10:18.560] - Caullen

I don't hate this. Is the enemy of my enemy, my friend? That's my next point as far as the RICO trials with Trump right now. All of his homies are getting RICO. That was for mobsters back in the day. They obviously use it against Black and Brown folks. And so simultaneously, in the same state, the RICO trial for Trump and all his cronies, and liberals are like, yay, we got them! I'm like, y'all don't understand how this works.

[01:10:40.290] - Avalon

Exactly.

[01:10:40.800] - Caullen

But simultaneously, the RICO trial for Stop Cop City folks.

[01:10:43.150] - Avalon

The 61. 61! 19 versus 61. That is the part that we need to be paying attention to. Because that is emblematic of how the system works. They got 19, we got 61. Do you see what I'm saying? The disproportionality is on front page with the comparison of those two RICOs. I'm sorry, I just needed to interject that piece. Because people will be like, oh, we got this! And I'm like, 19 to 61, do you not see?? That's a huge difference.

[01:11:17.190] - Caullen

The flip in seeing the reaction to the Trump mugshot and all- that's a different episode we can get into- the reaction to seeing all that and being like, y'all... This tool is not- it's part of the criminal legal system, part of the criminal punishment system. What is it simultaneously used to do? Stop folks from stopping a literal, militarized cop city on indigenous ground, on environmental ground, on of the fewer... one of the last, really, big open public forests in Atlanta in this area.

[01:11:46.710] - Avalon

The lung of Atlanta.

[01:11:47.820] - Caullen

But you all are happy that Trump "got got" which he

[01:11:50.870] - Avalon

whatever.

[01:11:51.220] - Tommy

For 20 minutes.

[01:11:52.400] - Avalon

He's going to be totally fine.

[01:11:53.920] - Caullen

These are tools that they're using. And let's see how this actually works. And I think about the insurrection a lot as far as, like, they're fighting the cops, but also having blue lives matter flags and stuff like that. We see when they raided Mar-a-Lago, and I'll land the plane soon, they're like, oh, defund the FBI. I'm like, wrong formula, right answer.

[01:12:11.850] - Avalon

Let's talk about it.

[01:12:12.810] - Caullen

Oohh, this person was arrested for January 6, and they're held without bail, that's not fair. I'm like, you know what? You're right, that isn't fair. Let's talk about it.

[01:12:20.590] - Avalon

Let's talk about it.

[01:12:21.410] - Caullen

You know what I'm saying? I see your gears moving, Tommy.

[01:12:23.700] - Tommy

Yeah, well, I'm thinking more that- I don't think it can ever emerge from that ideology because it's like, settlers agitating for the more brutal application of these stuff. And oftentimes outside of the US, it's warmongering, full throttled support for like, I deserve privileges as a white settler. And I'm losing these privileges. But I don't care about the dismantling of any of those other systems of violence.

[01:12:58.470] - Tommy

Yeah, I had something else, jumping back. But I also want to say that, yeah, it's ridiculous too, how in the midst of these RICO charges, like Fani Willis, the prosecutor, is getting puff pieces in the New York Times. Like, liberal darling. Meanwhile locking up thousands of poor Black and Brown folks in Fulton County jail where there's rampant reports of rodent infestation.

[01:13:22.970] - Avalon

We had a person die from bedbug bites in that jail.

[01:13:28.220] - Tommy

An overcrowded death zone.

[01:13:30.880] - Avalon

Absolutely.

[01:13:31.560] - Tommy

That is completely fallen out of her responsibility. And now you have people being locked up there and remanded on RICO charges for fighting against the forces that are killing. Especially poor people, but the world, environmentally.

[01:13:49.350] - Caullen

And to be clear, I'm not at all saying like, oh, Marjorie Taylor Green is going to be on our side.

[01:13:53.720] - Avalon

[laughing] No no. I get it.

[01:13:56.410] - Caullen

I think it's an important site to look at and dissect as we're doing it.

[01:13:59.420] - Avalon

Absolutely.

[01:14:00.140] - Caullen

Unless for like, oh, maybe the MAGA folks will come to our side eventually. No, I'm not worried about that. But I think for- and maybe I'm just saying this because these are the circles that I'm not around a lot, but am around more so than the MAGA crowd, as far as the liberals who want to be leftist. The baby leftists and liberals that are like, We got Trump. I'm like, okay, let me tell you how it works. Like, this is good that he got arrested. And like, his folks are held without bail. Is it though? If we're worried about humans and freedom and when actual due process and actual democracy, United States is not a democracy, please stop saying that, everyone on the news.

[01:14:34.470] - Caullen

If you're actually concerned about that, then we need to be concerned with these people that think radically different than we do, but have these same similar frustrations of not having enough, of feeling their back against the wall. Maybe the diagnosis is wrong, but that feeling is real. That feeling is white supremacy, a matter of what you look like. Especially if you're Black and Brown. But that feeling comes from white supremacy, from capitalism, from patriarchy, from all the -isms we know to be true. And it's in us too, right? That's why this shit's so fucking hard. But we have to use all the examples that we can to open the door and to push and to agitate and to educate and to work on ourselves at the same time. I think it's all really important.

[01:15:11.670] - Caullen

And yeah, I watch, David knows this, too much corporate news. So I'm like, this is a stupid and shitty analysis of dog shit, but I know homies watching this and he's going to have opinion. My friend who's politically engaged but baby leftist, or wants to be but isn't really fully there. How do I use this to push those kind of folks? That's where my mind goes. But I think it's important. And fuck the US capitol, you know how much harm and violence we've come out of there in policy and stuff? Like, they stormed the Capitol, it's sacred. No it's fucking not. It's not, I'm sorry. And it's kind of weird, that dude with little horn things, that was kind of cool!

[01:15:45.980] - Avalon

Well, and he's getting paid now, right? He has not changed his position. He did his bit and came home, and he's making money off of doing that bit. And I'm not saying that that is... Let me say this.

[01:16:01.650] - Caullen

Yeah, I'm not saying what he did was cool.

[01:16:03.120] - Avalon

I'm not saying it's cool by no stretch of the imagination. But what I'm saying is that it shows, again, the difference between the experience of Black and Brown and Indigenous people in the carceral system versus white men in the carceral system. They can recover. They can recover and use that experience to be more financially stable. Yes, they do have an X on their back, but if they come from a position of privilege- and I'm talking more so in this instance of wealth privilege, which he did- then he can bounce back. Whereas even if you come from a position of wealth privilege as a person of color going through the carceral system, you don't get to bounce back like that.

[01:16:49.090] - Caullen

Unless you're OJ.

[01:16:51.010] - Avalon

And actually, he didn't.

[01:16:54.370] - Caullen

Did he stole some merch or something?

[01:16:55.640] - Avalon

Yeah, I mean, you know what I'm saying? It was weird. It was weird. It was really weird. Absolutely.

[01:17:00.360]

[crosstalk 01:17:01]

[01:17:02.070] - Avalon

But there's a huge difference between the OJ and other Black and Brown and Indigenous people that go through the carceral system. Many are not white supremacists like he was.

[01:17:14.730] - Caullen

*laughing* Let's go!!

[01:17:15.140] - Avalon

As a person who lived her life as a practicing lawyer, as a white supremacist, I got to call myself out on that. I lived my life judging people based on the standards of whiteness. And I had to get over myself and be like, wait a minute, that means nobody that you love and know that are close to you will ever be able to meet these standards. And how is that fair to you and fair to them? And I had to actually get out of that mindset. I was indoctrinated into thinking that. And I had believed that for a long period of time. Because it was part of my survival as a practicing attorney.

[01:17:49.550] - Caullen

That's wild.

[01:17:53.670] - Avalon

So you have layers, right? So you have the Black white supremacist that can bounce back, because I'm embracing white supremacy and racism. And I can be the Black face to say the white things.

[01:18:07.420] - Caullen

Andre Dickens, Atlanta mayor, talking to you. Jesse White endorsing Paul Vallas, talking to you. The list goes on. I did want to mention one thing about the insurrection. I feel weird saying shout out to the dude with the horns thing, I just think it's a funny picture, that's all I'm saying.

[01:18:23.800] - Avalon

It was hilarious. And it was super cold. I was like, bro, you're not cold? But okay, never mind, I'm sorry.

[01:18:31.010] - Caullen

But Bella Bahs wrote an article after the insurrection, kind of mentioning what we're talking about, Avalon. And was like, hey-

[01:18:37.900] - Avalon

shout out to Bella.

[01:18:38.890] - Caullen

Shout out, Bella. If this was a whole bunch of Black folks going in, storming for Black liberation and all of that, it would have looked very different.

[01:18:48.360] - Avalon

Oh, they would still be.

[01:18:49.520] - Caullen

We wouldn't have Paul Bart, mall cop there.

[01:18:53.210] - Avalon

It would have been the whole army.

[01:18:54.880] - Caullen

You know what I mean? So to your point, as far as... Even saying that now, folks are like, well, what if they were Black? But they weren't. And there's a reason why. Because all of them would've been killed. But they can do that because these are their people.

[01:19:06.860] - Avalon

Absolutely.

[01:19:07.220] - Caullen

The cops were literally letting them in. Like, Where were the police? The police are in the crowd, like, y'all!

[01:19:14.030] - Avalon

In the crowd!

[01:19:14.750] - Caullen

Think better, ask better questions. You all knew this was happening. He was very clear.

[01:19:18.690] - Avalon

Very clear.

[01:19:19.320] - Caullen

Like, why are you surprised? So I think January 6, at least for this podcast, David's like, stop talking about January 6. I think it's an important site of unpacking for all of these things as you move forward, especially coming up to next year, another election, and all the things. But thinking about white supremacy and policing and abolitionist presence and what Black liberation can look like. And then also when and how we pick our fights, right? I think it's important to think about that moment in history, and then how even the coverage, like, oh, this never happens in this country. I'm like, well, when it happened to other ones, the CIA was behind it.

[01:20:00.350] - Avalon

That part. That whole part. I feel like- and that's why I brought up the concept and talked about, like, as we're doing this next phase of coalition building is, how are we transferring knowledge from the people who have it to the people who don't. So for me, that's building. That's creating the systems that we need and deserve. My role as an organizer and as an activist and as a human being, I feel like, is what am building? I'm always thinking about building something. And as- I also think about dismantling what is. Because what I don't want to have happen is we don't have this thing, but we don't have the thing that we need to replace it. So we need to be doing- and Ruth Gilmore says this all the time- we need to be doing both at the same time. We need to be building the things that we need to replace the things that we don't. And so I feel like coalition building is coming together to build the things that we need.

[01:21:03.750] - Avalon

And what does that mean? It has to involve power shifts. It has to. It is impossible to do that without shifting power. Because if we don't shift power, then we just have this thing that's powerless. Alright, that's nice, it's beautiful. Oh, it's a beautiful building, but it's totally empty because it has zero. You know what I'm saying? And so I feel like we have to be thinking about, okay, who has the power and how do we get it? And shift it to the things that we need versus the things that we have?

[01:21:34.110] - Tommy

I would say part of that too- I totally agree, Avalon- is moving resources and power to currently incarcerated folks to organize on the inside. And that's difficult because this is a beast that is totalitarian. It's surveilling everything. It locks people out. There's a bunch of risks in doing that. But I think in thinking back, too, to the pitfalls of bringing in those professional class of people who are trained in white supremacy and plugging into campaigns for their own personal reasons, is that they approach it too with that arrogance that you were speaking about. That... It's also involved in dictating a course of action, that they come in, they know; this is the lawsuit, this is the legislative policy, this is X, of how we're going to do it.

[01:22:24.930] - Tommy

And even if it is abolitionist or even if it is like, this is the legislative route towards getting this done, there's a way in which it also reproduces that disposability politics of the people who are impacted. It's like they're objects or pawns in your game of transformation. They're not their own agents of transformation. So you could have- if you pursue that route and allow for those people to be the "experts", and I'm putting it in air quotes, because they're not experts, then you'll just end up with a system that similarly is white supremacist, devalues people who are incarcerated. And produce some other dehumanizing system that is violent and not life affirming. And also, yeah, the language I was using was totally influenced by Ruthie Wilson Gilmore. It's so powerful, the definition of racism.

[01:23:25.330] - Avalon

I love her. Shoutout to Ruth.

[01:23:27.250] - Caullen

We'll put the actual quote in the episode notes. We both talked- it wasn't exact.

[01:23:32.690] - Avalon

And I- her favorite thing is like, that we disappear people and not disappear problems. And that, to me, is rooted in white supremacy. Because it's easy for me to disappear a person than for me to disappear a problem, because if I disappear the problem, then I have to deal with the cause; and the cause is white supremacy, and I'm not trying to disappear white supremacy. I'm just trying to disappear the people.

[01:23:55.290] - Caullen

I was like, you're not? But I understand what you're saying.

[01:23:58.330] - Avalon

I'm not. I mean, I am, but society isn't. And so it is very important what you just said, Tommy, about... what's that saying? You can't use the master's tools for your liberation.

[01:24:14.180] - Caullen

The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.

[01:24:16.480] - Avalon

They will never. So in that very situation that you talked about, like, okay, the so called experts that are rooted in white supremacy, and then they come in and say, okay, here's how we're going to do it. And then if you build something based on this is how we're going to do it, you're just going to get more of the same. Because they're not trying to do it through a lens that's not white supremacist, not rooted in white supremacy. And so it's a matter of utilizing those resources strategically and in a way that, again, transfers the knowledge and the power into the systems that we want to create instead. And I think that we just got to keep that as the North Star in everything that we do, because otherwise we'll just keep replicating the crap that we're dealing with. It'll just morph into something new, and then now we got to dismantle that. And so we're too busy dismantling we can't really build the thing that we absolutely need, especially if we don't think about shifting that power and shifting that knowledge.

[01:25:23.190] - Tommy

And there's a way, too, in which right now those resources- like the resources for political education and conscious raising, are absolutely wasted on- like, even speaking to my own experience. Growing up in a suburb of New Jersey with white privilege and access to resources that could- led me to being radicalized or getting access to... It's like, most people who came from this aren't..., don't have the kind of experiential access point. So it's like you get a bunch of people who are trained in upholding those systems. The resources are-. And that's part of the structure of it. These institutions are trained to produce a class of people who are continuing the unequal capitalist structures.

[01:26:10.460] - Tommy

But my point in this, too, is that it speaks to the work that I do in REAL. We build critical consciousness and community with currently incarcerated and formally incarcerated young people towards the abolition of prisons. And it's like, people who are locked up are experts on the true nature of the criminal legal system, the true nature of settler colonialism, of capitalism. Because they experience that violence, the violent operations of it, on a daily basis. So it's like, the resources that are devoted to-. And even in some nonprofits and organizing spaces towards plugging in college students, law students, lawyers, into organizing work, would have much better gains of returns with people who are actively fighting the state; are sitting on a confinement unit, trying to write up a grievance to get off of confinement, are agitating in their own ways. So there's also a point where resources are being wasted and are wasted in organizing spaces on people who don't get it. So I don't know, yeah. That's just something that's coming to mind in that, too, is like, building power needs to be also building power with those who are already experts.

[01:27:30.240] - Avalon

And I can tell you, because I went into prison an activist, but an activist that was still struggling as a white supremacist. I know, right? That's really fucked up.

[01:27:47.030] - Caullen

She saw my face. It's like, wheww.

[01:27:49.670] - Avalon

That's a lot. It took a lot for me to unpack that. And so when I would agitate inside of the prison, I would get shook down. Or you would be subject to- and as- subject to a strip search. Or different things that causes you harm. And so as we're talking about empowering them- because I can promise you, people inside of prisons, the vast majority of them are like, this is just some BS, and we need to figure out something better. But a number of them are just trying to make it to the next hour, not even the next day, the next hour, mentally, emotionally, and physically.

[01:28:37.990] - Avalon

And I have to say this because this is not said enough, all prisons are hellholes and sites of violence. But prisons that house women are even more so, because every single day in a prison that house women- and I'm using that term very... in the broadest sense possible, so non-binary, also trans, et cetera- every day you are either a victim of or witness to sexual or verbal or physical abuse. Every day. There is not one day that you're not subjected to that, either as a victim or as a witness. And so you have to think about all of the things that the men are experiencing, and on top of that, you have the things that are happening in the women's prisons simply because they identify as women. That complicates things when you're trying to organize, because there's other ways that you can be assaulted or harmed, that's a little bit different and may show up a little bit different in that space. And so it is important that the people who are on the inside have agency on how that looks for them. It's extremely important. And you have people who, we call it- those of us who have been inside- we call it institutionalized, because this is so oppressive that it's like Stockholm Syndrome. That all of a sudden you become the perpetrator in this type of harm because that's the way that you feel like you can survive. And so just understanding all of these nuances and things like that. But it is vitally important.

[01:30:21.830] - Avalon

We organized to get video visits because many of us moved to an institution that did not have video visits, and we came from an institution that had video visits. And they were like, yeah, no, you're not going to get it. And we was like, yeah, no, alright. So then we organized to get it. We organized to get clean underwear. You'd be thinking, why you got to fight to get clean underwear? That doesn't make sense. So when you think about the fact that water... It's just one piece of the whole, just crap pot of mess that they're just trying to pour out on people in those institutions. Water is the basic thing, but it's also the fact that you don't think that I deserve clean underwear, that you don't think I deserve to have video visits with my children and my loved ones, that you don't think that I deserve to be able to breathe and exist without some type of abuse. It's all of those things. But we have got to get past this idea that we can top down this coalition building and this realignment of power. It has to be bottom up. It has to be bottom up, period, point blank.

[01:31:36.990] - David

I've just been listening this entire time. I don't know. We always think about how are the episodes going to go? But I think this was just so insightful, for myself, being in the shits with you all, but I can only imagine to some of our listeners. Because, as we always say, you get in where you fit in. And this is the fight that we're seeing ahead of ourselves, just as everyone else is seeing their own fight. And so definitely insightful. Definitely... I'm trying to think of a way in which to bring a final question or check-in for all of us. But I'm just like, yes to everything. It's interesting that we will have the opportunity to physically do it with our group, with our campaign on how we want to move forward. And some of that is, okay, cool, we're understanding some people have to leave. That opens the windows for other people to come in, and then that can change then our tactics, so to speak. And we have to use everything we have at our disposal. We have to- go ahead.

[01:32:39.640] - Tommy

I have one thing that came to mind that I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion on is, in thinking about the kind of top down approach that often comes out of lawyers, professionals- not to just harp on lawyers.

[01:32:56.530] - Avalon

Nonprofits.

[01:32:57.330] - Tommy

Nonprofits, exactly.

[01:32:58.190] - Caullen

Media entities. Corporate media entities.

[01:33:00.430] - Avalon

Yes.

[01:33:01.630] - Caullen

Not us, we're good. We're good!

[01:33:02.830] - Avalon

Yeah, you guys are good.

[01:33:06.490] - Tommy

What comes back to me is, I think it was Dylan Rodriguez on a podcast, he was talking about... And this isn't to downplay the real existing federal and state surveillance of activists. And you can see that in Atlanta, that's real. The FBI is doing that, continues to do that. But there's another way in which we see that a lot less than in the 60s, 70s, 80s with revolutionary organizations. Because it is in part been replaced by the nonprofit industrial complex that will discipline folks when they get out of line from what the foundation line is. And so thinking about NRDC dropping out of the coalition, it's like, you're kind of getting too close to actually supporting incarcerated people in frontline fights against the prison. So it's like, yeah, we don't do that. And if you want to lose your job, which like, this is your buyout to sell, then you have to fall in line. So there's a way in which there's this disciplinary apparatus that exists in the nonprofit world that is a form of fed repression. Fed repression of political movements.

[01:34:30.870] - Tommy

I was wondering how y'all see that playing into coalition building in general? And if you've seen that in other spaces where the nonprofit disciplines organizers in a way that is almost synonymous with how feds kind of get in and try to intervene?

[01:34:50.830] - Caullen

That's a nugget right there. I'm going to chew on that for a whole week. That's fascinating. We talk about the nonprofit industrial complex on this show for sure, so there's analysis there in a previous episode with Lizette Garza, I encourage folks to listen to. But I think of a larger liberal- when I say that, I mean that in a bad way- a large centrist liberal ideology of co-optation mixed with status quo bending versus transformation revolution.

[01:35:36.330] - Caullen

With that, I think we saw in 2020 where we've been screaming about abolishing the police forever, we've been screaming about capitalism being a constant crisis forever, these flashpoints moments happen. We see those folks I just named move a little bit, at least move a little bit, I think some folks in a real way in good faith. I think some folks just copying language, putting up Black squares, whatever, which makes other folks who are not politicized or understand how these systems are so insidious think, okay, I did the thing, I did my job. Or like, every election cycle, they'll vote or die. Or, if you don't vote, you can't say anything. Vote, vote, vote. And that's all they do every cycle. But I think in their mind, I think folks believe this, that they're doing the work.

[01:36:30.500] - Caullen

And so the trajectory from what you mentioned, Tommy, from the 60s, 70s to now, in that nonprofit industrial complex just emerging as this corporate entity with a pride flag and a Black Lives Matter thing in the window, I think that's kind of what it is. I think of the Republican Democrat memes where the Democrats have a war machine with a Black Lives Matter flag; that's what I think of and feel when you say that. But I think those are symbols of whole ass industries. Another thing you mentioned as far as the nonprofit industrial complex, actualizing that into policy, having similar structures of for-profit businesses being partial in nature, taking some of these punitive policies but putting a bow on it; or doing some work that is somewhat beneficial but not enough, not having that transformational lens. And so I think when we say liberation and we say transformation, when we say revolution, these are huge things. But to your point, Avalon, that is a North Star we have to point to. But yeah, it's dangerous. I think recognizing that is super important.

[01:37:36.530] - Caullen

I think we framed a lot of stuff really well in this episode, which I really appreciate. I appreciate y'all bringing in that energy. And I think that's what we have to use when it comes to conversations with folks, everyone. Because I think- David and I have done a little bit of work with young folks who are incarcerated, one of the things prior to doing that work was like, hey, just because these folks are incarcerated doesn't mean that they're abolitionists, right? Like, some folks really kind of believe that. So I think not assuming that about our people. And also having these storytelling tools, having these narrative tools to talk to folks about what you just named as far as this liberal apparatus like, we're doing the good work, but you're not actually. It's a- what's the word? It's a false sense of security to think that this work exists in a vacuum and isn't a different arm of the carceral state. It is a reactionary arm that is put together with a bow that's supposed to make you feel good, but also is harmful as well. And so these conversations are very important. And again, I'll think about this more, I think it's a really interesting nugget.

[01:38:40.780] - Caullen

And Soapbox is a 501c3. We're technically... we are a nonprofit, right? It's been nice being able to move in a way we want to move and really unapologetically and still be able to get funded and stuff like that. And I've said this on this podcast before a million times, COVID, the uprisings, Trump has helped us get more funding. Like, oh, yeah, y'all were right the whole fucking time, here's the bag. We haven't changed. And also, we're a fiscal sponsor for CDI, so we're benefiting from this apparatus. But without that, there were things we just couldn't get. So that's attention... I can talk through and think through now, and I feel like we made the right decision doing that and understanding what that is.

[01:39:16.870] - Caullen

But it's like, mission drift is real. And I will say on this podcast, we will never do that. But it's like, that's really real and something you need to be careful of. But I think with these flashpoint moments from decades ago to now, especially for us being a media and storytelling narrative arm, in addition to doing the work like y'all are doing, like David's been doing with y'all and organizing, we have to also use those flashpoint moments that happen globally on a planetary level; as well as in our city of Chicago, to push people to have ways that happen to understand, write your alderpersons, say, don't vote for this thing, it's shitty. But also, what is the elected political class doing in general? And ask these bigger, broader questions.

[01:40:00.510] - Avalon

Yeah, I want to just lift up one thing. And it made me think about it from the standpoint that the funder class also acts as the FBI in a lot of ways. And so when you think about it from the standpoint that after George Floyd, after his death and everything that kind of happened around that. I do want to note this, also, that the RICO charges to the 61 people said that the conspiracy started on May 20, on the day that George Floyd died. So. Murdered, my bad. Let's use right language. The day that he was murdered. And so what has also happened with the funder class is that there was this, oh, we love Black people. Right? That did not translate-

[01:40:57.530] - Caullen

Insert Tom Cruise. [soundclip] "We love Black people."

[01:41:00.480] - Avalon

It didn't necessarily translate to more money, necessarily. And then now that all of this stuff is happening, it's happening at the same time that funding is starting to decrease for the work that I do. So there's this... Correlation is not causation. But I'm just like, it's really interesting that funders are saying, oh, well, we're not funding that anymore. We're not doing that anymore. And it's like, okay, well, what's behind that? And I think that we need to be having that conversation as well to be like, okay. And then what do we build instead? Again, I'm always thinking about building. So how do we build sustainable funding for people who are not going to be fair-weather friends? Just calling a thing a thing.

[01:41:59.510] - Avalon

Like, oh, when the heat gets too hot... When you guys are really starting to think about and create systems that can dismantle white supremacy, dismantle all the -isms that are part and parcel with this experiment called America... When they really start to see, oh, wait, hold on. Some things are starting to happen, they starting to make some changes. Even as minor as they are, the system starts to say, okay, wait, self preservation mode needs to kick in. And so how do we curtail that? We curtail it through surveillance. We curtail it through funding. We curtail it through all of these different things. Right? Because we really want to keep the status quo. We want to talk the talk, but we don't want to walk the walk.

[01:42:48.870] - David

Yeah. And I think the only thing I could add, Tommy, to your question/thought, it's like, how far along are we willing to play the game? For example, I could be an employee of Soapbox. I kind of tied it with him, I was like, well, that's where you get your people into those spaces, right? And so getting people and bringing people into your nonprofit that are directly impacted by things. Or may not have the resources but have the heart in wanting to advance X, Y, and Z. I don't know... It kind of makes it like, what are we doing ourselves to check ourselves? You know what I'm saying? Almost. And I think that we do so by these types of conversations. About to our point, making sure we have the conversations in line before we start with the work in terms of like, alright, this is the seven of us, this is where the lines are drawn for all of us, let's move forward type shit. But a lot of that just sits in education and then also kind of timing, right?

[01:43:53.470] - David

I'm hearing a lot of like, well, this happened and then that happened. This happened, that happened. So I'm just curious on what's it going to be in order for us to have another shift? I remember a couple of years ago when we were talking about during 2020, we were very gassed up and there's a lot of energy. And we knew that there was going to be a swing back. But I'm driving down 90/94 watching "defend the police", "stand behind us" type shit. I'm like, first of all... It doesn't matter, that's a whole other conversation. But it's just so frustrating because you would think, but I think you all naming everything in terms of the status has all of these apparatuses in order to do control, so how is it that then we go around that? Or not go around that, but challenge that even more directly?

[01:44:42.570] - David

And I think that's also where you fit in on like, okay, well, who is funding us? At least for us as a 501, we're going to be selective. We don't give a fuck about how much money you're throwing at us, Exxon. But- you know what I'm saying? I don't know. We also, out here, have to have the ability to make these decisions for ourselves and our people. Understanding the repercussions that will also come from taking the death grant, if you want to call it that.

[01:45:12.530] - Caullen

Grant from like, Halliburton or something like that.

[01:45:15.670] - Tommy

Every grant's pretty much- I mean, also Ruthie Wilson Gilmore, but foundation money is just circulated stolen wealth. From workers...

[01:45:24.890] - Avalon

Absolutely.

[01:45:25.450] - Tommy

From going back to slavery and colonization. It's the same wealth that is... I commonly think about the first publicly traded company was the Dutch East India Company, which was a brutal... All that money is still.. And it's important to be aware of all the ways that being within the imperialist core, like there's so many buyouts for everybody. And it's an important way to discipline, is to make those kind of buyouts with strict rules.

[01:46:00.130] - Avalon

And I just want to name something as a person who is proudly wears the "all of us, or none of us" mantra. Or mantra? Because there have been times I've been in spaces with colleagues that I admire and love. But then you have an opportunity for a win and it's like, oh, well, these people, we can just kind of leave these people behind. And I'm going to be that person, always, in the room to be like, really?

[01:46:31.540]

[crosstalk 01:46:32]

[01:46:34.590] - Avalon

And to agitate in that way. And that's difficult because I have been uninvited from spaces as a result of that. Because I may be like, alright, this is the decision that we, through consensus, have made; but I'm not going to allow us to make this decision without actually- we gonna have to name all the hard things that we need to name. And I feel like sometimes in the more liberal spaces, they don't want to have those conversations. They just don't want to have them because they want to feel- oh, I want to feel good. Look, we got this win! We got this! And that's the part.

[01:47:12.730] - Avalon

And I've turned down money. I've turned down money, and I'm really, we're really just getting started. We've only been around since 2019. And so some people be like, I'll take all your money. And I get that. I get it. But for me, it's a lot of, I'm not going to take money that I feel like needs to go somewhere else. So if one of our coalition members is doing that work, then that money needs to go to them and I'm not going to take it unless I'm going to take it and give it to them. That's kind of how I look at it. And so I feel like we don't have that conversation either because we sit back and people... Scarcity is a myth, but it's real in that, alright, people not getting paid right now. You know what I'm saying? It's a myth in the macro sense, but in the micro sense it's real. So I keep you in check by checking your bank account. How's your paycheck looking from this? And so we really need to have that conversation on top of all the other conversations. Have that real hard family talk about like, okay, when we say all of us are done, what do we really mean by that?

[01:48:24.130] - Avalon

And then when we say that, alright, we're going to be selective in who we accept money from, what do we really mean by that? And those that we are accepting money from- because nobody's hands are clean in this. Nobody has clean hands on any level in this situation. And I think that we just don't like to have that. And as coalition, as we build coalitions, we really need to have- maybe over some drinks and some food- but a fellowship and type of environment, but have those hard conversations. So that we can increase our power, increase our knowledge, and move forward and do the things that we need to do. Have the coalition do what it do. But it can't do it unless we talk about these things.

[01:49:08.480] - David

Or you listen to an episode of Bourbon 'n BrownTown.

[01:49:11.140] - Avalon

Or that.

[01:49:11.950] - David

Like, oh, this was really interesting, and I'm actually going to talk to my own people about this. Now I can get involved.

[01:49:16.840] - Caullen

Read the episode notes. Click on those links. Spend time on that, y'all.

[01:49:20.580] - David

Edumacate yourself. Educate yo'self.

[01:49:23.160] - Avalon

Let me learnt you something.

[01:49:24.600] - David

No. And it's real. And it's so real. Once again, these are conversations that continue going. But we really appreciate you all taking the time here to hang out with us and just share a little bit of your truths, which was incredibly illuminating. And hopefully for our listeners as well. Because again, we say it, the game, the struggle is not over. It is continuing. And if anyone listening is interested in learning more, again, the episode notes are available. If you're interested in participating, we have all the groups available that we'll make sure to have. Again, information on... Go ahead.

[01:50:04.920] - Caullen

I just want to reconnect some points. I made this note in the prep earlier, but wanted to say explicitly, these are all their core abolitionist fights, humanitarian fights, and the foes are not natural disasters. The foes are actually people making decisions. And the political will that is or is not there, and the decades- really generations- of dominant narrative, convincing movable folks that these crises are normal.

[01:50:30.410] - Avalon

Right.

[01:50:30.840] - Caullen

And I think that's something we really have to hold. We've named different ways, I want to succinctly try to articulate that as far as, we can do anything we fucking want. And I think this is part of that disaster collectivism, to fight back against those things. And these aren't natural, they're people and political will, or lack thereof. And in case you're not reading the episode notes and want to learn more about CDI: coalitiontodecarcerateil.com. If you want to watch more videos and media pieces that Soapbox has created: soapboxpo.com/coalition-to-decarcerate-il. Wanted to name that.

[01:51:13.900] - David

Fo' sho'. Get in where you fit in. And as always, from Bourbon 'n BrownTown, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.

[01:51:19.150] - Caullen

Stay tuned, stay turnt.

[01:51:20.560] - David

We'll see you for the next one.

OUTRO

Music: Song Wavy by Tobe Nwigwe.