BrownTown breaks down the relationship between police abolition and state-sanctioned police accountability measures with newly elected Police District Councilors David Orlikoff and Ashley Vargas. The guests square their PIC abolitionist organizing roots with the new accountability structure, Community Commission for Public Safety and Accountability (CCPSA), for the Chicago Police Department. Three years after the first installment in the midst of the 2020 uprisings, BrownTown and the organizers-turned-electeds re-contextualize the path to abolition with the paradoxes, nuances, benefits, and challenges of this new structure on the foreground of the decades-long demand for community control over the police. Originally recorded June 19, 2023.
BrownTown breaks down the relationship between police abolition and state-sanctioned police accountability measures with newly elected Police District Councilors David Orlikoff and Ashley Vargas. The guests square their PIC abolitionist organizing roots with the new accountability structure, Community Commission for Public Safety and Accountability (CCPSA), for the Chicago Police Department. Three years after the first installment in the midst of the 2020 uprisings, BrownTown and the organizers-turned-electeds re-contextualize the path to abolition with the paradoxes, nuances, benefits, and challenges of this new structure on the foreground of the decades-long demand for community control over the police. Originally recorded June 19, 2023.
GUESTS
David is a grassroots organizer from Chicago who moved to the Northwest side 10 years ago. He was the Defund CPD Outreach Lead for the 35th Ward, where they received over 2,500 petition signatures and 71 group endorsements to reduce CPD's budget by 75% and reinvest in solutions that provide the care our communities need. He became very involved in organizing during college with Occupy Chicago, marching against the banks that stole millions of families' homes and then got huge handouts while people suffered.
Ashley was born and raised in Logan Square. She is the daughter of Mexican immigrants and the youngest of 5 children. She ran and won as a write-in candidate for the 14th District Police District Council. She began to get involved in her community during high school, organizing for immigrant rights and affordable housing. Now, she has worked in successful grassroots campaigns and plans to continue her work of liberating marginalized people. Follow David on Ashley on Instagram.
Topics Mentioned and Glossary
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CREDITS: Intro soundbite from Police District Council swearing in and outro music from BnB alum Fiendish. Episode photo by Darius Griffin of The TRiiBE. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles.
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Bourbon ’n BrownTown
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BrownTown breaks down the relationship between police abolition and state-sanctioned police accountability measures with newly elected Police District Councilors David Orlikoff and Ashley Vargas. The guests square their PIC abolitionist organizing roots with the new accountability structure, Community Commission for Public Safety and Accountability (CCPSA), for the Chicago Police Department. Three years after the first installment in the midst of the 2020 uprisings, BrownTown and the organizers-turned-electeds re-contextualize the path to abolition with the paradoxes, nuances, benefits, and challenges of this new structure on the foreground of the decades-long demand for community control over the police. Originally recorded June 19, 2023.
INTRO
(soundbite from Police District Council swear in)
Dave Savini- CBS News [00:00:51] You are looking at the 66 newly elected district council members. They are all part of Chicago's Community Commission on Public Safety and Accountability. There are three community members representing each of Chicago's 22 police districts. They are supposed to have a say in the search for the permanent police superintendent, and they will be able to voice the different needs and concerns of each individual police district. The commission will also have input over COPA, the Civilian Office of Police Accountability.
BODY OF EPISODE
David [00:01:22] I'd like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy, David. As always, coming to you with my boy Caullen. Caullen, and how you doing today?
Caullen [00:01:31] Doing okay. Got a little bourbon in me. Just kind of sipping, thinking, talking. But I'm doing okay. It's been a good month, I guess, just of activities, social stuff, work stuff that's felt good. So, in good spirits, hoping that'll carry throughout the week. Speaking of the week, we're recording on Juneteenth, so shout out.
David [00:01:49] Shout out!
Caullen [00:01:50] How are you? How are you doing?
David [00:01:52] We're doing all right. I'm really excited to finally get into things that we've- we've always wanted to record one time a month, two episodes, kind of get into that kind of swing of things. And you know, as I've named, I've just been so excited for the summertime. I’m just like, I'm ready for it, to be honest. But we're really excited to continue this work, and have the opportunity to learn. I think this episode is not too different from others in terms of the reaction to certain things that took place, specifically when we're talking about the conversation of police abolition. If you haven't, I'll definitely encourage you to please pause this episode, and go ahead and check out episode 53 with Ariel Atkins. And I think just seeing how far we've traversed from that episode recording to today, I think is just so... inspiring.
And it's funny, though, because I feel like sometimes we take a lot of L's on this side, you know what I'm saying? And it ain't always on me, man. I'm trying. But you know, we've come into this momentum of pure up, and so continuing to ride that. And I think this episode just continues to breathe liberation, but in spaces that oftentimes we don't assume it exists. And so we're specifically talking about new things have been put in place.
But before we do so, I think it's important to, once again, understand what happened from 2020 and how the uprisings- whether for good or for bad- challenged people to have to take the time to be like, where do you stand? Whether that's on police brutality, whether that's on the state's ability to control or take care of its people during a global pandemic, whether that's understanding the housing crisis or the wage disparity, it just forced us to have to sit with these things. And so I think, to take us back to 2020 at a time where, at least in Chicago, 87% of our community was saying to defund the police- because guess what? They get about 40% of our city budget. And if that doesn't seem like a lot to you, it's 40 fucking percent! It's almost half the pie. All right, let's just think about it, for reals. Cause motherfucker's like, But they need that money. No, they don't. No, they don't, okay... But I don't know Caullen, what about you? What are some of the thoughts that you've been thinking of as I know you've been taking a little more lead on this episode.
Caullen [00:04:35] The budget conversation is always so funny to me because I'm always like, we- and I say "we" very broadly- just like, organizers, activists, of course, but like nonprofits, people who just don't have a lot, we can do so much with so little. Like, y'all just need to budget better, low key. Like, I don't understand why you need more every year. Really it's just that you need more better accountants. But also just inherently anti-Black and violent.
David [00:05:00] On Juneteenth of all days.
Caullen [00:05:01] On Juneteenth, how dare you?! First of all, how dare you? *laughing* Thinking back on that episode was fun. Because I remember when we recorded it, Ariel, who's a homie, and we always would talk about police abolition, and how police weren't shit, like in everything we kind of did, but it wasn't really centrally focused on just that. Maybe No Cop was the closest. And so... We're in lockdown, COVID- we recorded our first one in lockdown, Mental Health with Abbie and Dakota. And then the uprisings hit, and I tell this all the time, as far as, I didn't know was going to be what it was, like, that week of. I'm like, okay, police killed a Black man, of course they did. You know, you get desensitized.
But we're a couple weeks into the uprising and every day feels like ten days, right. And so it's- by the time we record, it's like, man, I'm tired. But it was nice having someone like her come in and really give us some nodes that I wasn't thinking about. As far as- not just police abolition in general, and that practices and politics. But what it was then, and how all of us were talking to our community, the broader communities who are involved in movement or whatever about what was happening. And even outside out the insidiousness of white supremacy, and anti-Blackness in all our institutions. So looking at that moment of recording that episode, putting that out in the world, and that was one of our number one most listened to episodes for a long time cause people wanted and needed it.
In that moment particularly, as far as us as a film and media arm, and screaming about capitalism and police not being shit all the time. We got a lot of attention that summer. Which is good, but like, damn, it took this? So zooming out, looking at from that moment, June 2020 to now, it's interesting just watching the political discourse, as far as abolition being a household term, which was kind of cool. And then the hard revanchism and tough-on-crime policies and rhetoric.
David [00:06:55] Swing.
Caullen [00:06:56] Swing back. And folks are always like, yeah the Republicans... I'm like, no, no, the Democrats too. *laughing* Let's not give them a pass. Seeing that really hard in 2021, we see folks come at the SAFE-T Act in Illinois really hard 2022. We see some more organized push back against that push back. And then now we're sitting here in 2023 already talking about 2024 election. Which like... Yeah, eye roll.
But then we had this moment of this year we have more leftists and progressives- we'll test that- but progressive alders. And then Brandon Johnson as mayor, as we have this big moment in Chicago which means a lot. And so how do we square that with the Empowering Communities for Public Safety Ordinance, which is kind of coming into play in a real way. But also square that with movement still driving to defund the police, and try to find out ways to get at abolition of the majority practices in a way that we can actually do. So I think a lot of things are in the air, that the conditions have been slowly being set for for a long time. So I'm excited and curious, and also frustrated and angry about all the things. But it's just- looking to these past three years- three and half years which seem so long as far as how we bring these topics into play. So I'm excited.
David [00:08:18] Yeah, yeah. And with that we have two awesome guests. I'll start by introducing Ashley Vargas. Ashley was born and raised in Logan Square. She is the daughter of Mexican immigrants and the youngest of five children. She ran and won as a write-in candidate for the 14th Police District Council. She began to get involved in her community during high school, organizing for immigrant rights and affordable housing. Now, she has worked in successful grassroots campaigns and plans to continue her work of liberating marginalized people. Ashley, what is up?!
Ashley [00:08:50] Hi! Thank you for having me, David and Caullen. I'm excited to be here.
David [00:08:56] Of course, shout out.
Caullen [00:08:57] Does anybody call you AV? *laughing* Is that a weird nickname?
Ashley [00:09:00] No, that's not weird nickname.
*laughing*
Caullen [00:09:06] With AV, we have David Orlikoff. If you don't know, David is a grassroots organizer from Chicago who moved to the Northwest side 10 years ago. He was the Defund CPD Outreach Lead for the 35th Ward, where we got over 2,500 petition signatures and 71 group endorsements to reduce CPD's budget by 75% and reinvest in solutions that provide the care our communities need. He became very involved in organizing during college with Occupy Chicago, marching against the banks that stole millions of families' homes and then got huge handouts while people suffered. Thanks, Obama... *laughing* I had to..
David [00:09:43] David, what is up?
David O. [00:09:46] It's great to be here. Thank you. Thanks for the introduction.
Caullen [00:09:49] Of course. Thanks for the work.
David O. [00:09:50] Yeah, I mean, thank Defund CPD for the talking points that I used for my campaign.
David [00:09:59] Thank our ancestors, I hear it, I hear it. And so just to get us into it because clearly, Caullen and I gave a decent amount of context for folks. And I can only imagine as y'all are listening too like, where was I at 2020, right? And so just to give a little bit more insight to folks- and we'll start with Ashley and David can continue. Could you, for our listeners who may not even know that you were a write-in for this thing called the PDC, could you give a little bit of context in terms of what that actually means and then how you started? Then we can bring David into that so that we can continue the convo.
Ashley [00:10:31] Yeah. So in 2020 I was actually living with my grandmother in Mexico and I would see the uprisings and the protests on the Mexican news. And the way they would criminalize the protesters was... It was heartbreaking just cause my grandma would take their side. And I'm like, No, grandma look. Like, what's more important is it the things they're taking from the store or is it a life? They're angry because a life was taken. So how about we prioritize people's livelihoods and not like, merchandise and things.
But yeah, that's where I was in 2020. So I was really excited to come back around 2021, when things were getting a little better. And that's when I started working in my community with some grassroots campaign. Starting off with Cristina Pacione-Zayas, I usually- I mean, she was the first person I started canvasing for, collecting signatures for, and it was really important because I graduated... I also graduated 2021 actually. And I graduated with a lot of imposter syndrome. And seeing Cristina Pacione-Zayas in a place of power and the boss things she does as a senator, kind of like, it just disappeared. My imposter syndrome disappeared. And I'm like, I deserve the degree I got. I deserve-
Caullen [00:12:19] There you go!
Ashley [00:12:19] I deserve to be at the college I graduated from. I deserve that.
Caullen [00:12:25] Imposter syndrome is real. It's really real. I feel like... David and I both, have a healthy, but sometimes not healthy less sense of ego- And, but like, I sometimes am asked to do things, to be on a podcast, or do something where I'm like, oh my god, that's cool. It's like, I can talk about Soapbox and how the stuff I'm doing that's cool, but I'm like, Fuck, I gotta say all the right things. Ahh. Even right now, I'm like, What am I doing? So it's real and we all have that, but I think that it is nice having folks you know and trust do that work. Especially folks who have a similar background than you.
Ashley [00:12:53] Yeah, like a homegrown Logan Square kid, or Latina in places of power. I was at Anthony's... When he gets sworn-in, a community swear-in. And Carlos was explaining to me like, what ECPS was, and this whole situation with police abolition and the importance of the ECPS ordinance. And I come from a family of four older brothers, and I kind of saw the way they, I mean, we went through it, like at the hands of cops, we went through it. We had- my brother was... we just always had cops visiting our home because of certain situations. And I seen how cops were treating my brothers, and it was really heartbreaking. And I kind of want to step up and listen to everybody's stories and bring change in that way, because there's no reason CPD should get so much money when they're just terrorizing our communities and bringing us down and not letting us thrive. You know, my brother was displaced because of the gang database and it's really heartbreaking. Yeah.
David [00:14:15] And so that was like, yo I gotta run for this position?
Ashley [00:14:16] Huh?
David [00:14:18] That just inspired you to be like, Yo, I got to do this?
Ashley [00:14:21] Yeah, it was only- I mean, I love David, and it was two white men running in a majority Latino district. And I think I want to be a source of safety for people to share stories with, and kind of bring that change through stories and through any way I can. You know, I'm learning on the job.
David [00:14:43] Yeah. No, that's, yeah, that's so exciting. David what about you? What's some of the context for how you saw things coming from 2020 and why that led you to be where you are today?
David O. [00:14:53] Sure. If you don't mind, first, I'd like to shout out a little more my co-counsel, Ashley.
David [00:15:00] Go ahead.
David O. [00:15:01] Yeah. So as a write-in candidate, I believe this is record setting.
David [00:15:04] Record, yes.
David O. [00:15:05] She got over 4,000 signatures.
David [00:15:07] For a district.
David O. [00:15:08] Yes. There was one other write-in candidate who won with 333 signatures, on the south side. So there's a big difference. And then also the fourth, another write-in candidate in our district, got 41 signatures. So Ashley got 100 times the signatures than the competition.
Caullen [00:15:23] He's a homeboy. I'd be like, Yeah motherfucker, I'm out here! Woowoo!
David [00:15:26] He's like, with the grassroots that's what it was. I knew these motherfuckers, where you at?
Caullen [00:15:30] You don’t even live here.
David [00:15:30] Thank you, David, for that.
David O. [00:15:32] And I also appreciate Ashley calling me out as a white man, because.
David [00:15:36] That's what you are.
David O. [00:15:37] That's very relevant in abolitionist spaces. I can't ignore that fact. But I didn't decide initially that I had to run. That this was, for me specifically, what I did was I reached out to the Chicago Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression, the first group that's been pushing for community controlled police and the earliest member of the ECPS Coalition, and also to Carlos Rosa the alderman that sponsored our first Democratic-Socialist alderman, first leftist alderman that we had. And I asked who are the abolitionist candidates that I can support? Who can I go canvas for? And there is a bit of a process, but the answer was that there weren't enough candidates in my district. So the Chicago Alliance supported me, gave me the petitions to get on the ballot and everything like that.
As far as why I'm doing this, as you said in my bio I really got activated in Occupy Chicago. There was an encampment aspect to that, or like a street presence, that kind of omnipresence. We never really had the same park setup like Zuccotti in New York, or Boston or other areas. But we were active just on the sidewalk in the financial district or in Grant Park, everywhere. And there was a lot of police harassment. A lot. So I've experienced harm from police, I've witnessed and I know a lot of my friends that have been targeted and attacked in various ways. I've also experienced firsthand how- just the word of a police officer, even if they're not on the scene, but just an officer can lie, and that carries so much weight. Where it could be years before you even have an opportunity to question or challenge that in court. And prior to the SAFE-T Act, people would be in jail for that whole time, for two years without having any evidence ever being questioned or vetted in any form.
And the media reporting as well. If you go to a protest and then you try to look for the coverage in the mainstream afterwards, you're like, well, that's not... that isn't what happened, or that's not right or they missed the whole story. So a lot of awakening. I've been critical of things that I didn't see as fair or just for a long time, but I didn't have any firsthand experience until I really got active. And that's coupled with an understanding, again, that as a white man who's privileged in a lot of ways, I found that I had the ability to remove myself from the situations where I was being very active, protesting, doing the things that the police didn't like and didn't want me to do. I have the ability to go somewhere else, to do something else. And I understand that there are a lot of communities, mostly Black and Brown, and Indigenous communities, mostly poor people who don't have the ability to get any sort of refuge from police terror. And the Chicago Alliance was definitely one of the groups that was always showing up downtown all the time with their large banners showing the victims of police crimes.
Caullen [00:18:41] Banner is big as hell, yeah.
David O. [00:18:41] That's, met survivors, family members of people abused. One of the things I did in Occupy Chicago was get an endorsement for the free Howard Brown- sorry, Free Howard Morgan campaign. He was actually a federal railroad cop, but he was shot 28 times by four white CPD officers when he was driving on his block home. He drove the wrong way for half of a block on his street, and then he declared that he had a firearm as a licensed officer. And in response to that, they tried to kill him and put him in a body bag, and then burned the van, destroyed all the evidence and he was tried with double jeopardy where- anyway. There's supposed to be a gunpowder residue thing on your hand if you have fired a weapon. So part of the charge- they charged him with attempted murder, and with using his weapon improperly; he was basically proven innocent because there was no gunpowder residue. They declared a mistrial and then they retried him for murder and they separated the weapon charge. They cut that off and they said that you can't present any of your defense that you used to prove your innocence on not firing your gun. But so you have to defend yourself for attempted murder, for shooting- for allegedly shooting these officers who were not hit by any bullets. You have to defend that without saying that you didn't shoot your gun. So not only was it a double jeopardy, it was double jeopardy with his hands tied behind his back. Eventually he got his sentence commuted for being elderly and infirmed. But that was...
David [00:20:11] A whole fucking process.
David O. [00:20:12] One personal thing. So that was an awakening point for me in 2012. Yeah. Sorry.
David [00:20:17] No, no, no. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's always very important for all of us sometimes to hear what is it that brings folks into the game, right? I think for a lot of our listeners, 2020 was it. But naming things- the history there. But I think we're not always alert. Our antennas aren't always there to that. So I do appreciate that. And so that kind of bled into 2021. You're seeing that this thing is being put, you're like, yo, there's nobody running who's an abolitionist, it's gonna be me.
[00:20:47] [N*Sync "It's Gonna Be Me]
David O. [00:20:50] Yeah, yeah, that's it, for sure. *laughing*
David [00:20:54] I love it. I love it. And so, and for Caullen, I'd love to- for folks who do not understand what PDC is or how we came to that, could you provide any context for folks?
David [00:21:02] Yeah, I was gonna, at least as far as the Police District Councils in the terms of the ECPS, I was gonna pitch it to you guys first. As far as what your structure is, as far as your council, the other councils and the ordinance in and of itself. And then I happy to fill in anything else with the history of how we got there. But if I'm listening to this for the first time, I'm not from Chicago or something like, what is ECPS? I also don't like police, but like, what are y'all doing?
David O. [00:21:28] Well, you have a great, actually, diagram up there. I've written similar things down when I'm talking about this. Usually I don't say the police part, I just say "District Council" because I don't want to be confused for a cop.
Caullen [00:21:43] That matters.
David [00:21:44] District council. Let's talk. This is the DC now, let's go.
David O. [00:21:47] Yeah. So there's- but it is based on the police districts. There's 22 police districts, but they're numbered up to twenty five because three of them were merged or, whatever, closed. And so each police district elects three local representatives, that's what me and Ashley are, on the district council. And we're part of a department called the Community Commission for Public Safety and Accountability, that name gets used a lot. That was the name of the ordinance. The official name is ECPS Coalition, when it turned into law, it turned into the CCPSA ordinance. And then that's the name of our department, Community Commission for Public Safety and Accountability. It's also the name for the seven member body, the Community Commission, that has power over police and public safety for the whole city. So we have the interim commission that was appointed in 2020 when the law started, and then they're still hiring up the staff that they have in the budget. And now we have, for the first time, our elected local police district council representatives.
[00:22:50] One of our jobs, a very important one that Ashley has is to nominate the central commission that has a bunch of powers. So some of the powers that the CCPSA has are to- they have power over the head of COPA, which is the Civilian Police Accountability arm, as well as over the police superintendent. They're running the hiring process, although it still goes through the mayor and city council, and also the police board. And then the fourth thing is police policy. They're working on fleshing out the consent decree which we need to be critical of, I guess. But in the future we can make recommendations to CCPSA for CPD policy and they're supposed to be able to act on that. So, for example, there's no policy banning police members from being a member of a white supremacist group, and that's a policy that maybe CPD should have as long as we have CPD.
David [00:23:48] Just... maybe. Yeah.
Ashley [00:23:50] So for nomination there's 22 districts and one person out of every district has to nominate at least two people to sit on the council. And for that we need a 15 out of 22 nomination vote to let somebody sit on that council, the seven person council. That's why it's important to work together with other nominators. And honestly, CAARPR as a movement. I mean, the ECPS movement, the Alliance, we won 14 out of... We have 14 for sure votes out of 15. So we just need to sway one person from the other side to vote with us in order to pass somebody to sit on the council.
David O. [00:24:44] But also, I don't think there's eight FOP candidates, but there's, as you can imagine, there's some districts that are gray areas throughout the middle.
Caullen [00:24:53] Yeah, you know for sure. FOP being the Fraternal Order of Police, for the uninitiated.
David O. [00:24:58] They do have- there are like 2 or 3 strong FOP districts in Chicago.
Caullen [00:25:04] Yeah, I think that's some interesting too, as far as just having... we'll get into it, but having so many new positions where it's like, great, we have folks like you or like abolitionists or folks who are really going to encourage and have the community understand the role of policing and things that we can do to at least maybe in the meantime suggest that are not as horrible and harmful. But also if FOP, or bad folks, even folks who are somewhat bright-eyed about policing it could be actively harmful, so what are the roles there? Do want to mention too, one thing you mentioned about the police board, I understand them as the ones who actually discipline the rank and file or whatever when something happens, right?
David O. [00:25:45] Generally, I guess. The superintendent in the past has not followed the recommendations of the civilian oversight or even BIA, sometimes that's occurred. So I think the superintendent ultimately has the power to ignore any recommendation from COPA or Internal Affairs. Maybe that'll change as we have different people in these positions, we'll see.
Caullen [00:26:05] I love that you named this. I think one thing I've been thinking about and in research of this episode, I've known some stuff, but now I'm realizing how much I didn't know as far as COPA, police force, police superintendent, the rank and file, the mayor, and then obviously this new CCPS group, and the PDCs sees itself, as far as who can hire and fire, who can make recommendations, how strong those can be, in reality, as you kind of mentioned. And what the web of all these things are, and how that comes into play.
David O. [00:26:38] I mean, we've run directly into this issue where the local commander who is... who we would be working with most closely, he acts like their hands are really tied in most ways. Because it's a hierarchy and it's built kind of like a military, and they've received some military training and equipment. But when we've asked about-
David [00:26:59] "Some".
David O. [00:26:59] These issues of discipline in order to control the behavior of officers is a challenge because it can't- it's not handled by the commander. And that's an issue that actually we've come up against.
Caullen [00:27:12] Yeah. And then also with- can be super specific where some of these decisions to it- the mayor can hire and fire- or I guess, fire the police superintendent, there's power to do that. But also some of these roles need to be voted on with city council as well. So there's a kind of more... and it gets more democratic in that way too, but it’s another step that takes. So I think in preparation for this episode, and understanding our new ordinance is like, I don't even know how it worked in the past. I thought I knew, but I didn't, right? And looking at the history of how we got here as far as the police repression for four decades, generations, centuries or whatever, but also this policy. And with COPA specifically, and obviously COPA still exists and now we have CCPS, but how'd that look like in the archives? Like how do we... what was before COPA? And that was like, IPRA, right? And that was another police accountability measure, Independent Police Review Authority.
David O. [00:28:12] Yeah. All I know about IPRA is that the Chicago Alliances always talk shit about them. They told me that's not shit, we got to get rid of them, we got to replace them. And I think they were correct about that.
Caullen [00:28:25] Yeah. And they, like David said, replaced it with COPA. And that was only after the murder of Laquan McDonald, City council and Rahm- they kind of pushed Rahm to make something different, that was COPA.
David O. [00:28:38] And COPA was not the demand of the movement. The demand was community control over police, directly elect the people who can hire and fire. At a minimum. Right.
Caullen [00:28:47] I think that’s important to note too for listeners. And hopefully if you listen to Bourbon ‘n BrownTown often you know this, but it's like- the government and the state never did anything relatively kind of good without Movement pushing to get something much more, much better, much more radical, right.
David O. [00:29:00] Are you talking about co-opting movements?
David [00:29:02] *laughing* Say what? Say what?!
Caullen [00:29:06] That's like again, to your point, complete shit, we got COPA- also not what we wanted. And like, I don't even know if I can even say better, but it’s something different. But before that, before IPRA, it was even worse with the Office of Professional Standards, which kind of came out in the 70s after another police killing. And the U.S. Rep Ralph Metcalfe from Illinois was kind of like, Hey, we should do something. So they made they made the OPS at the time. Which comprised mainly of civilian members of CPD, so it was notorious for stifling police misconduct.
David O. [00:29:34] Literally called the Ops.
Caullen [00:29:34] Yeah! *Laughing*. Literally called the Ops. So it's… I think that that trajectory is important to understand as far as, literally OPS to IPRA to COPA. And again COPA is still here, we also have this other entity, which is the CCPS, which is where you guys come into play too. And so it's like, that didn't happen- it didn't change just because someone got elected and was like, I'm going to the right thing and make this kind of better. No, it became because a high-profile police killing or a string of them, and so there was enough pressure, social pressure from people, movement also, because just everyday people were like we need something better. And then.. you don't get that, but we get something different and maybe it's a little better in some capacity. And so I think CCPS is part of that trajectory of how the state operates, at least.
David O. [00:30:20] Definitely. And a couple of things that you made me think of: as a supporter of CAARPR we had a speaker, Olan Mijana, at our last meeting on Saturday for the 14th District Council, our public monthly meeting, and he spoke about how- you know, you talked about how there are certain opportunities, and I think CAARPR did a really good job of capitalizing on the opportunity where it was to sort of get as much progress as you could in that moment. But they're not done. They haven't given up the fight for community control. And in fact, that's still something that's still in City Council thanks to Carlos Ramirez Rosa. And so that's still an ongoing fight to go even further than the ECPS ordinance allows because it didn't capture all of the goals that the movement had.
Caullen [00:31:02] And when you say that's something that Carlos is- shout out Carlos- do you..
David O. [00:31:06] I mean, the old ordinance is CPAC Civilian Police Accountability Council. To directly elect, in our case, what would be like the CCPSA, rather than it still be nominated and appointed through the mayor and city council. And for them to have more direct power, as well, over hiring and firing rather than the roundabout with the superintendent and the mayor and all that.
Caullen [00:31:25] Sure. And the one thing CCPS can do is hire and fire the head of COPA. Am I correct on that?
David O. [00:31:29] Sure.
Caullen [00:31:30] Okay. Yeah. And I think even that in between history, too, looking at CPAC and then GAPA.
David O. [00:31:37] Also with the district councils we're not a third official investigatory arm. We don't have our separate complaints from COPA and BIA. We’re- I mean, well, we're new, so we're kind of determining our practices and they vary a little from district to district. But we're kind of like.. we're grassroots organizers really, in a sense. With a degree of official authenticity or something, you know.
David [00:32:02] I mean, with a title.
David O. [00:32:03] Right, exactly. We don't have legislative authority. We don't have executive authority, really. You know, we have like a gray area of working with our local police. We can make recommendations to CCPSA and they have teeth and actually can nominate them. But as far as like, what are we really doing? You know, I see it as very similar to grassroots organizing. And how can we… it's about building pressure and holding people's feet to the fire; being accountable both to the voters and then pushing for accountability on behalf of the city. But it's not a third police complaint department. You know, it's something weird.
Caullen [00:32:39] Something really weird. I guess the point I was trying to make was like, there’s CPAC which has a lot more teeth, which is more direct as far as electing people then those people elected can have more teeth as far as holding the police accountable in really real tangible ways: hiring, firing, the policy making regulations that have to be taken seriously as far as the budget. And there is GAPA, Grassroots Alliance for Police Accountability, which was, from my understanding, a softer version, right? And so, I mean, when I kind of got into movement there was both those were happening at the same time, I was like, what’s GAPA? GAPA’s trash! Ahh, okay. *laughing* That’s all I knew, was that GAPA was trash.
And so then when ECPS came about, it was like, okay GAPA and CPAC, and like okay now they're talking to each other. They swiped right and we're figuring things out. And then this ordinance comes and from what I've heard from some alder-friends and alder-folks, too, it's like there's a big push for it. And like a lot of policy, I will say, but also this in particular with policing especially. Even after uprising wasn’t enough they got watered down from what it was supposed to be in the first place. And the start was, looking at CPAC and GAPA so we kinda knew that was going to be the case. And so, you know.
David O. [00:33:46] But you got to, again, shout out the strategy, because they passed it with a veto proof majority. And Lightfoot was not about- she was even against GAPA. She was like, I'm going to write my own thing, or like, this is on me. And her history, of course, is defending the criminal cops in these lawsuits that cost the city billions. And so I think props for getting as far as we could, and getting that veto proof- getting 36 votes at that time to really cement whatever progress, whatever momentum we had at that point. And now we have these positions to magnify the movements of it. You know, we're not doing this by ourselves, everything is dependent on the community. But I think we have an opportunity where it's so easy for the media, for different people to ignore the real on the ground activists. We have an opportunity to step in and try to highlight the struggles and keep the momentum going forward.
David [00:34:38] Mhm. That's crazy. So y'all been doing this for a month, right? Give or take? Ashley, what's been some of your experiences in your month as a write-in?
Ashley [00:34:48] In my month as a write in it's been interesting. It's been really hard to be honest. A lot of tears, I'm not going to lie.
David [00:34:55] What do you mean?
Ashley [00:34:57] Well, working with the- I've been working- I've been going daily to the 14th District, working with the migrants. I'm kind of getting to know them, listening to their stories and just kind of helping meet their needs. There's been a beautiful movement of mutual aid in all 22 districts. And the 14th has been, in my opinion, one of the best.
David [00:35:23] Heyyyy. Shout it out.
Ashley [00:35:23] Yeah. Shout out to the 14th District mutual aid. But while getting to know the migrants, I hear stories about how they're treated by the police. And there's been a case for a month now with the sergeant, Sergeant Mary Martin. And she's been very xenophobic with her comments, very aggressive with her behavior towards the migrants. And that's kind of what we've been dealing with. The commander doesn't really step up to discipline or set that culture where that's not acceptable because she feels so comfortable with these comments. And like David said, she kind of demonstrates like, I can't do anything about it. But I'm sure… I don't know. So that's what we've been dealing with and that's been our first month. And David's been very helpful; you know, when I confronted the sergeant, she met me with very aggressive behavior, kicking me out, calling me a child. But when David went and spoke up, it was very respectful.
David O. [00:36:46] Very different treatment from the white man than the Latina woman.
Caullen [00:36:47] Shocking.
David [00:36:50] Go ahead, D, out here using this privilege. Let’s go!
Ashley [00:36:54] Yes, exactly. Shout out to David.
Caullen [00:36:55] You got a loan, too, while he was at it?
David [00:36:59] *laughing* Got approved for housing? I see this motherfucker. But David- thank you, Ashley for that. But, David, to add to that, how has been the month of your position? Your naming- there's still a lot of developing, a lot of gray that is being finessed, how’s that been?
David O. [00:37:18] So much…. you know, we've been thinking about this and working for it for a lot longer than a month.
David [00:37:25] Of course.
David O. [00:37:25] The main thing that I'm focused on besides what Ashley is naming, the real work she's involved in, in the law it says that the district councils can form committees with volunteers from the community. And I really jumped on that, because also we're only paid a stipend for 20 hours a month, not a week, but a month.
David [00:37:45] Five a week.
David O. [00:37:46] Right. We're putting a lot more- I'm putting a lot more time into it than that. Which I'm used to because I haven't been paid for ten years, all the organizing I've done. But, the main thing that I'm focusing on is getting community committees off the ground. So we were able to have our first meetings for two of those with a lot of buy-in, with a lot of great people. So I have one committee for police accountability oversight and policy, so everything to do with police. On the lowest granular level: individual officers or incidents that would be accountability. And then on the middle level: that would be oversight for our 14th district, are they adhering to the policies like consent decree that they're supposed to be following in the current system? And then third is: we didn't- we're not running just to tell everybody how it is, we want to change things, right? So the third level is changing stuff. And that's important. There's a big report now from Impact for Equity in the Free 2 Move Coalition about how they replaced stop and frisk with the vehicle stops because the federal government had to come in and say this is so- you have to- this is so racist.
You have no Fourth Amendment in Chicago because of what you're doing, throwing all these Black and Brown people against the walls on the street every day. And the very same year that they stopped doing that, and there's memos in the report from the commanders, they just replaced that with vehicle stops, like immediately. And in our district, you're 8 times more likely to be stopped driving while Black than white, and 2.5 times more likely to be stopped driving while Latino than white. And there's not- there aren't really… there's no justification for that, even in the police framework. Because there's less than 2% hits for a ticket or any type of contraband, they're not recovering anything, and so it's really unjustified. And we also hear the police and their supporters often complain like, well, why isn't the community helping us to get our clearance rate up or whatever? Which is not a demand that we necessarily should focus on, because oftentimes to get a higher clearance rate they torture people into false confessions, or historically that's been the case. But obviously the community is going to not want to work with you if your whole interaction with them is literally just harassing them all the time.
Caullen [00:39:57] Hostile. Hostile. Hostile. And it's like- I mean, I think you spoke to it, too, right? That that’s their argument. And it's like, okay, so you were just saying is, are you waiting for stuff to happen and then trying to solve it? Are you inherently reactionary? Huh, that seems like an issue. We know that to be true, in this conversation, but it’s like, you're admitting it by saying, like, work with us to solve these crimes. Like, why are there so many fucking crimes? Y’all got $2 billion and there’s all these crimes? So I think police being ineffective, inherently violent, but also inherently reactionary, I think is important. And they know that- maybe not with that language, but they know that to be true.
Which kinda brings me to a question I have as far as the critiques of this new structure a little bit, as far as does looking at the platform on the CPS website; community involvement, which I feel like y'all especially lean into, because that's what you're used to doing.
David [00:40:44] Especially with the committees that you're building off the ground. For sure.
Caullen [00:40:47] Right? Like, committees to control the police we can argue how much they have *laughing*. But then with community alternatives to police. And I think with all three of those things sound really good, how they look in practice. But I'm curious about, with making these committees- which hearing you talk about now seems good- is there, not as much as y'all, but the structure of how that works across the city with people who maybe are not like you. Does that and how does that legitimize policing? I'll leave it there.
David O. [00:41:18] Yeah.
Caullen [00:41:19] This is for you, too, David.
David [00:41:20] Well I have different thoughts, but I’d love to start with y’all, and then we could dive in. Because y’all the ones who are like- I can’t- just even more.. I can’t imagine talking to cops on a daily basis. Let me just start there. The fact that you- Bitch, you calling me childish?? Like, Ooh, ooh. That's why I don't have that.
David O. [00:41:36] She called her a “crazy little girl”, more than once in front of me. And that was just in front of me.
David [00:41:41] Oof, okay, well, we have receipts. But- just wanting to name that the level that y’all are at, it is not a- it’s not just a position that y’all wanted to fill. Y’all are clearly in a very important position that not all of us can fill. And so to bring it back to Caullen’s point, I just wanted to name that because it's like, I'm hearing things that y'all are doing. I'm like, man, I couldn't imagine… like, fuck you! Whatchu mean?! I’m just kidding. Just kidding. And so, we're taking all these things in consideration. But to Caullen’s point, we are curious to see how this moves forward. And so I'm curious to hear your thoughts. And then we're definitely down to jump in on that. And granted, once again, we understand that this is still relatively fresh. And so we're still unpacking a lot of things together. But any initial thoughts there?
Ashley [00:42:32] I really like what David's been up to as a community person. I think how we move forward is definitely through education. Because people can't imagine a world without police, but people need to know that there was a world before there were police, you know? And so, yeah, this is definitely a start to reimagining how we're there for each other, and how we take care of each other, most and foremost.
David O. [00:43:03] Yeah. Wow. I had a lot of thoughts while both of you were talking but, I mean, I love what Ashley said. As far as, Caullen, you mentioned there could be different approaches to it. I mean, definitely, you know the ordinance… my feeling is, it came from the movement that CAARPR, Chicago Alliance, is part of and CPAC. But the GAPA side, they seem to have definitely had a little more milquetoast perspective.
Caullen [00:43:35] *laughing* a milquetoast perspective.
David [00:43:37] I'm going to make that a drop. I’m gonna put that on one of my drops.
Caullen [00:43:43] Store brand.. fucking policy looking ass. It’s not Pop-Tart, it’s like hard pastry with icing.
David [00:43:46] Go ahead, D.
Caullen [00:43:49] What is this? The fuck? 365, what is that, the Whole Foods? Alright, I’m done, I’m done.
David [00:43:53] Sorry David. Go ahead. Go ahead.
David O. [00:43:55] There's a bit of an elephant in the room in Logan Square. In the bio, you talked about how 2,500 people signed this pledge for Defund CPD, and yet we didn't have too many candidates here- to where I ran basically unopposed. And you have to ask, well, what's the relationship between Defund CPD and ECPS? In the earliest demand, like when they had ten demands they were supporting CPAC but then they definitely pulled away from all types of reforms. And ECPS did not go as far as CPAC, as well. So I fully embrace and accept that Defund CPD and hard line abolitionists as a movement are not supporting fully ECPS. And I think that's fine because ECPS is not the end of the road, and we're not going to solve all these issues. And again, we don't really have a lot of specific power, so what we can do is just to work with the community and with the movements and try to build the education, like Ashley said, to get more involved and more understanding about what people are actually asking for, what they're fighting for, what they need. So I am thankful for everybody who is left of ECPS, everybody who's not making that their main focus, because the only reason we got ECPS was because of demands far, far, far to the left of ECPS. And we're not done. So we still need everybody out there doing what they're doing.
Caullen [00:45:24] So I'm hearing all this. And I think similar to what you kind of alluded, David O., some of the folks left of ECPS- and in a certain way, the critiques that are there with what this is. And in the prep for this episode I came across articles written by folks we all kind of know and trust in movement who have said some things that I think are more poignant. One article, granted it was written by someone who used to be with CAARPR, so there could be some drama there, I don't know. But mentioned that, “The ECPS ordinance, unlike CPAC, is clearly a step in the wrong direction. It further complicates the already complicated bureaucracy around police policy and budget while doing nothing to shift power away from city council and the mayor.” There may be some push back on that.
But another one from Stephanie Skora, who’s a B’nB alum, in the Girl, I Guess Voter Guide, which is a guide that a lot of progressive folks look at, and folks who are progressive-lite want to look at, which I think is helpful; gave recommendations for police district council folks who are explicitly abolitionists, and if they weren't then they wouldn't really buy in. And we’ll leave the guide in the episode notes. But she says, “We're stuck with 66 new elected officers and yet another body, the progressives and leftists, now have to fight tooth and nail to maintain a majority in, or actively harmful things will happen.” So it's like, it's still working with the police or the state at zero, or it can be worse. One more thing from her, “does not convince the ECPS will help us advance abolition in Chicago or move us in the right direction. If anything, I think it invests more resources into a system of policing itself by forcing people to identify their police districts and pretending like the PDCs have actual impact on police policy when they really, really, really, really do not and can be easily ignored.”
Those are some words folks have said. Can’t say I wholeheartedly disagree, can’t say I wholeheartedly agree. I'm curious y’alls thoughts. I'm curious, David, and I’m curious your thoughts, as we have conversation around this role and this new structure on top of the structure that already has existed and has changed in ways that you may not have been able to tell in the past couple of decades. Kind of an open floor question.
David O. [00:47:39] So as I understood it, one of the concern that Stephanie Skora said that “otherwise really bad things will happen”. I mean, didn't we already have really bad things happening? So what would be the new harm? If we found that police supporters suddenly became the most active grassroots organizers, then potentially there could be even more legitimacy or buy in through this process for police crimes. I guess that that would be the worst case scenario, right? That could be how this could be worse than what was before it. But I think we have to recognize that it's the left that organizes people. The right doesn't really do that. They can show up to CAPS meetings more often, but they're not that organized. And even if you look at the most populist organized half of the right, like the Tea Party, I think there were some things that the Democrats in power did that were bad for everybody. So I don't think that the right really organizes in a vacuum for their issues with people in the community. That doesn't seem to be their strength. Because if you actually are talking to your community, if you're talking to your neighbors, all the right-wing views are inconsistent with reality. They're not- they don't make sense, and they're not good for people. So organizing is our strength, but… we would lose out if we only sucked energy away from other things just to get people elected. Because just getting elected doesn't mean that you won the votes to change the budget. So you have to run on policies that are working alongside the community and the grassroots movements.
David [00:49:24] But I still think- it's so interesting when we're looking at a system like this that is so new; and with people who- to y’alls point, clearly- Okay, the fact that y’all name that there are districts that are clearly heavily controlled by FOP, I don't know. But then that also means that there's other groups and other districts that are controlled and monitored by community, first and foremost, right? Ashley, that's something that you were naming as your goal when you came into something like this was, what are people saying? What are the narratives and the stories that people have in our communities? And what does that bring to my role? And… I don't know, I'm hearing this and I'm curious to continue going down that conversation of like, When feeling challenged or when finding that opposition- you mentioned imposter syndrome- and how that takes a toll or influences some of your decisions. I'm curious to hear a little bit more from you, Ashley, in terms of how you're finding yourself to take strength in the role? And curious, once again, if you do have any comments to- not the opposition- but critiques of what you're doing. They're critiquing your job, bro! Like, what are you what are your thoughts? What are your feels? Not to be blunt, but…
Ashley [00:50:46] So definitely when I found out I made it into the role, and that I got 4,000 write-ins, I mean, we feel very strong, very excited and very confident that my community kind of is looking for a change. And that's kind of what we've- what I've been seeing; you know, people are ready for a change. And… Yeah, I hear, definitely, Stephanie Skora, but I think it takes away a lot of power and a lot of the history that led up to ECPS. We are organizers and we just have a greater platform to organize with and to work with, and that’s the beautiful thing of ECPS. And if I were to listen to critiques, I'd like to kind of listen to critiques of people who've been in this movement for years, who work towards the ECPS ordinance, and who put that work in. And yeah! I mean, we still have some changes to do, like Olan? Olan? Yeah. Olan says, you know-
David [00:52:06] What is that? I'm sorry, for folks who don't know.
Caullen [00:52:08] Olan’s the homie, who spoke at the meeting.
Ashley [00:52:09] Yeah. CAARPR.
David O. [00:52:10] From the Chicago Alliance.
Ashley [00:52:12] As part of our education piece Olan came to speak and he did say the real ordinance is still sitting in City Hall, and I'm looking forward for our progressive alders to champion it.
David O. [00:52:29] Olan also said that the district council, the ECPS ordinance, you are required to have public monthly meetings in all these districts. And Olan pointed out how this is a good opportunity. And I was also at another district council meeting with a different CAARPR rep. so you know… some of the organizers are taking advantage of this. And even if it was an FOP district, you can still go and you can talk to people, you could recruit there. So, I mean, it has to be seen as, yeah, it's just organizing. It's what Ashley said, it's organizing with a little more power for us, but it's still involving everyone else.
Caullen [00:53:00] Yeah. The steppingstone aspect I wasn't thinking about as much until I started doing more research around all of this. As far as like, I knew folks who are in movement who pushed for this, who knew that this wasn’t a win in the traditional sense, I guess, but it's something that we could build upon it. But I didn't know as much how folks were thinking about it structurally, as far as like, this is only the step. And I also didn't know this event was still, at least alive, in a certain way, in city council, which is good. And so it's helpful for me to hear that, and makes me feel better about all of this, having folks like you doing the work.
Ashley [00:53:35] The only thing is, I mean, I will say that we still have to work with COPA and with Internal Affairs. For this specific case with the sergeant, we are still running through those same systems. And I would like a little more power in having a say on, I don't know, like sergeants who are racist.
David [00:53:59] Yeah, and not to pound this out, but like, for some of our listeners, what would that mean? Like, we hear “power”, we hear that term- like how would that manifest in the ideal world for you, Ashley, in this example? Like I'm hearing this specific situation, I'm hearing this specific problem that’s the sergeant- but what would be then the power or the structure given to you then, that you would love that you currently don't have?
Ashley [00:54:33] Probably writing her up. Firing her.
David [00:54:38] Straight to it.
Ashley [00:54:40] Yeah.
Caullen [00:54:41] And that's great, because, I mean, in knowing what I've known from movement as far as how folks have pushed for that, from different folks and organizations and also reading things like, Oh yeah, I'm on the website right now and it's like, these things sound good.
David [00:54:55] Yeah, they paint it good.
Caullen [00:54:57] But what can you actually do? And saying okay, who has hire/fire capability, who has recommendations? How strongly are those taken? Like all that shit matters, right? And I think- and not to change gears too much- like with your response to Stephanie Skora’s critique, David, I do think there is something there as far as we all have finite capacity, right? And it's like, this is another thing you have to also be like- I think you're right. We have to- it exists, we have to be involved in it.
David [00:55:20] And take advantage of it.
Caullen [00:55:20] Take advantage of it. Yeah, right. So we have to, that is, but we can only do so much. But also, we are better at organizing and talking to people and being real and authentic. And I think that is something that is, I think is, I don’t wanna say was missing, you're definitely right about that as far as we're good at doing that.
David O. [00:55:36] And it shouldn't just be a self-serving time sink. Our job should be also to serve the community and the grassroots organizing that is happening; to support that, to make sure that it can't be ignored, that the will of the people is reflected in the city. And maybe we don't have all the mechanisms to make sure that that happens currently, but then it'll be a process of showing where there are still faults and gaps and pushing forward. I think also, the context is so different having Brandon as the mayor- in terms of the ways that ECPS is lacking. A lot of the ways it's lacking is the reliance on the mayor. And we're really in a lucky spot now to really test this and move forward and see how far we can go. It's really important that we have Brandon. It's a lot more exciting. We would have been in a different position of like- with Paul Vallas- I mean, oh god, forget about it… We would have been…
David [00:56:28] That's in another dimension. It’s not our reality. It's like, Reality 422.
David O. [00:56:37] Imagine if we had Vallas, you would… that would- all 22 monthly meetings would be an opportunity to sort of air grievances. And you could at least get independent media there, and you know, they're official, they're on the record. So, I mean, you could- even if the people in power were against you, you could, again, organize people on the ground and you could have a situation where the right has all the power on the levers directly, but they have to do everything directly against all the people of Chicago. And it can get to a point where that shows weakness or that shows an unjustifiable position. So there are opportunities in ECPS, but it's not the end of the story. And it's all still about grassroots organizing.
Ashley [00:57:20] Yeah. And also, Frank Chapman always says, he's always like, “this is what democracy looks like,” because literally there’s a lot of nonwhite folks who are working class who otherwise would have never run for office.
David O. [00:57:35] Yep.
Ashley [00:57:36] And now they have a direct say in the community, and they're someone to go to for resources and for hope. And it's very hyper local and you can find them locally, like walking around.
David O. [00:57:47] I'm excited for when Ashley and Saul run for mayor when Brandon's retired. The DC is 66 new positions but that's a benefit for some people- for community organizers to get a foot in the door.
David [00:58:01] Yeah. And not only that, but you're accountable to the 4,000 people who wrote you in.
Ashley [00:58:05] Exactly, yeah.
David [00:58:07] And I think that is a level that oftentimes the Opp doesn't take into account because they don't give a fuck about their constituents, if I’m being 100. They never do. Versus you- and we're naming you, Ashley, just because of the particularity of the way you got in- these 4,000 people are literally looking at everything you're doing, why? Because they literally wrote you in! It's such a wonderful opportunity.
So like that's- thank you, Caullen, for bringing in some of the criticism because I think if we're not criticizing everything, we're not doing our shit right. Because that would mean like, oh, you all are the solution. And David, I appreciate you constantly naming is like, that ain't it. But as Caullen mentioned, it's still a stepping stone in the right direction. And the fact that we got people like yourselves who don't only take this as a position, but take this as your livelihoods, you know what I'm saying, I think changes shit. Because then you got the FOP board… yeah, that's their livelihood. But how many of them? Or how are they organizing? How are they talking to their community? I'm hearing you're not. And it’s so interesting because we were just literally talking about- we actually…- or I feel… Let me not branch it out to “we”, but I feel like that other side is very well-organized. I feel like they got their churches, they got their book groups, they got their boys- Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. *laughing* I mean if we're naming… And there's still problems and all those things.
But it's so refreshing, David, to hear that in these situations, in this specific system that has been created, there's… they clearly lack what y'all have that put y'all where y’all at. And so we're naming these things like, clearly y’all wouldn't have been in the spaces without community, right? And the fact that y'all are centering that first and foremost rather than yourselves or an agenda or like- But police…. that's clearly not the case. And so I think it's going to be so much- to me, it's kind of fun at this point to see kind of what happens. There's clearly three of y’all. We don't… we clearly don't have the third person here.
Ashley [01:00:13] Umm, I mean, Chris, he's such a good Chair. He really gets things in on time, the agenda. Though he's not part of the movement I think that he's open to learning.
David [01:00:23] Not yet.
Ashley [01:00:25] He's open.
David [01:00:26] There you go.
Ashley [01:00:27] Not yet, exactly. I mean, right? That's the hope. That's the hope, right, “not yet”.
Caullen [01:00:33] Yeah.
David O. [01:00:35] You know, we were not sure, or I was not sure how it would go. But our last meeting was great, Chris was great. And one of the discussions we had with the community was about if we should invite the police to attend the next meeting, our third meeting.
Ashley [01:00:51] Uh uh uhh…
David O. [01:00:52] And the community overwhelmingly was saying that's maybe too soon. You know, we don't know- if we have specific things we need from them then that might be the time to invite them to listen. But not while we're figuring stuff out. And Chris, to his credit, said that he learned from that conversation and he was listening and receptive. So. We're happy that-
David [01:01:14] All right, Chris, you ain’t a full Op, shout out to you, bro. He’s probably listening heavy. He’s like, do they talk shit about me? What’d they say about me? I'm trying to be on their team. Work together or not? No.
Caullen [01:01:25] I only know what I saw from, shout out Chicago Reader, they did a very good job as far as having everyone's- all the candidates, all the information itself, if you bought into it. So Chris… I feel like…. one of these ones is not like the others. But it’s good to hear. When I think about conversations I've heard about elected officials like, statewide or alders, or whatever- folks I know and folks I don't know about like, working with folks who don't have the same ideology or politics as they do, I'm often… I don’t wanna say surprised-
David [01:01:56] He’s not very patient with people. *laughing*
Caullen [01:01:59] It's nice being like, okay I know about this person, I know they have a different politics than I do, but we agree on this thing, or like, something they… I remember hearing Robert Peters talk about something in the General Assembly in Illinois. He was like, you know, these folks who have diametrically opposed views than I do- if they know I'm going down for this bill and they don't have an opinion either way, because we have some kind of liking to each other, they don't mind me too much, they’ll either abstain or they'll vote yes. Because like, okay, he cares about this. He’s not a total imbecile.
David [01:02:28] Give it to him.
Caullen [01:02:29] So you know, like, oh, that's… could that be me? I don't know. But it's nice to hear that. And I do think- I think of conversations around this new role and this experiment, in a lot of ways, as a microcosm for like moralism in general. Where it's like, we know the state to be the impetus and the arbiter of so much harm and violence, but does that mean we just don't vote at all, don’t get involved whatsoever? Like, no, because it can be a lot worse. And if we get these levers over time, and movement pushes, pushes, pushes and we get folks in, we still have movement because we need that. Doesn't mean that changes. But we can have this inside-outside strategy that's more rigid, and over time we can get more radical on all the levers.
We were on a panel for No Cop Academy documentary a little bit ago and Benji- so we had a question about Brandon Johnson. Like, okay, now that he's mayor, he was against the cop academy, can we close cop academy, and repurpose it as like a community center or something? And we're like, I mean, we could do whatever we want to. Maybe repurpose schools and mental health clinics for other things.
David O. [01:03:28] Put millions into a school and then sell it for $1 to a private developer.
Caullen [01:03:31] Yeah, exactly. So it's just like, we can do whatever we want. Now that we’re in this moment with a progressive mayor, a progressive… more specific, leftist alders, now we demand more, you know what I mean? Now we demand more, we push some more… because it's possible. And then we have to push what they come in with. If they come in with the ideas we had, great. Days need to be had where we manage it to be possible for an ordinance, okay, let's push and push and push. It means we get to push more, we get to demand more. I think that's what we can do with this role as well. And on the experiment tip too, I think about- Damon's a homie of our show and Soapbox, Damon Williams, shout out. He mentioned on a Triibe article, “I hesitate to call it a win, but I think it is an important effort of community organizing and an experiment- which we need- on how inside and outside strategies can work together. The coalition that worked behind this can also provide valuable information and lessons. I don't think this should be promoted as something that will make our community safer or end police violence, but what it could do is activate a lot of people to engage in political processes that could lead to that type of work.” I think that’s a lot of what you guys are saying.
David O. [01:04:37] That sounds good.
David [01:04:40] He’s like, I didn’t see that. Shout out Damon.
Caullen [01:04:41] I hear and see that and feel that a lot. And I think about what Stephanie said and another person said who wrote a different article about how they didn't like this. And I think about, you mentioned Frank Chapman, eighty years old, been organizing for decades- way before I was born- was incarcerated for a crime he didn't commit. I mean, I think about his legacy and him throwing down for community control of the police from the Panthers in the 60s and 70s. And what we have now, was this what they were throwing down for in the 70s… no. However, we wouldn't have even gotten here if it wasn't for the decades of work and stuff. And we can look at that and all the ways at once. We can look at that as like, man, we threw, threw down, threw down, threw down from this Black radical tradition that we're all building on and we got this thing, which we know is so limited- which I think is true. We can always look at it in the sense that, man, we’ve be building on building, building, we finally got something that we can build on more for next couple generations. And I think we have to hold all those in contention. I think all of those realities exist at the same time. And how do we make sense of it and change folks material conditions.
David O. [01:05:47] Really quickly, just on the subject of Frank Chapman and of all the work that Chicago Alliance and family, survivors… there are- it is a Byzantine, roundabout process. We wish that it was just CPAC or whatever that we could go further- and we still want to get there, but it is a…. there's an element of a win here in that.. If you look at America, or if you look at the United States, if you look at other cities, CAARPR is saying that this is a win because this is as far as anyone has gone. So that's important. We're not done, but they've defined the direction that we're moving in. And that's something.
David [01:06:26] Yeah.
Caullen [01:06:27] Yeah, definitely. And that's kind of what a lot of stuff that I've seen that Frank's put out publicly about that. It’s like, look, no one else is doing this and we're doing it. And not- critics aside, but it's like, yeah, all of that is true and we'll push and whatever whatever, but it's Chicago! You know what I'm saying? It always is Chicago, right? And I think we mentioned this since he's been elected to now, any of folks we've recorded, we're going to hold Brandon’s feet to the fire, we're going to push him, we're going to do all the things with him with all the alders we love, like we're going to do that, that's what the work movement has. But also, name another big city that's doing this. The closest one is Buffalo, New York. And they did some… fucking corporate Dems got homegirl out. But yeah, it's like no one else is doing this, especially as big as Chicago.
David O. [01:07:11] There are specific policies that we're still lagging way behind on with police, because… Like LAPD for instance, the police union there is supporting taking 28 items off of their police car response list. They're saying, we don't want to deal with petty vagrancy, we don't want to deal with nonviolent offenses. And the city council's also supporting that. But the FOP in Chicago, very different. Their president, John Kelly, he's a guy who can't be a patrolman in Chicago anymore because he has so many complaints. He's such a bad, racist, violent officer. And that's who they continually reelect as the FOP president. So the FOP is not a good organization. We definitely can't beat around the bush with that.
Caullen [01:07:56] That’s being very nice.
David O. [01:07:11] Right, that’s being nice. So there are things that we needed. There's a lot of low hanging fruit in terms of police policy. As we can see with the federal government routinely having to try to step in, but they're not… they don't have the best track record either if you look at the FBI. The FBI recognizes that 80% of domestic terrorism is white supremacists- Right Nationalists. And yet where do they put their efforts? Into framing Black activists, into framing environmental activists- nothing to do with the real problems that we see. But yeah, there's a lot of low hanging fruit. There's a lot of work that I think that we should be able to accomplish with ECPS, with the Community Commission for Public Safety and Accountability, to get us closer to the level of, at least other cities immediately. That's not- again, that's not abolition. That's not the end of the day. There are other things we want to do as well. Treatment not trauma, reopening mental health clinics, and actually, right, get away from the reactionary responses and get to real community safety.
And I guess I'll mention the other committee that we started in the 14th District is for Alternative Responses and Public Safety Solutions. And so about half of the members of the first meeting are representatives from the violence prevention groups that do street outreach, that do mentorship, that do different programs. Back in the day, there was an umbrella called “Ceasefire”, and these are a lot of the groups from that alliance of local service organizations. They have a great program called Flip where they will give a stipend to somebody who's really active on the street, and ask them to wear a green safety vest. But then they're still very embedded in their own community, but they're trying to pull them into a different way of life, less involved in criminality or things ancillary to violence. And those are the people that actually have the ear of their neighbors, other people who are at high risk or whatever, the things that we want to change. So we need to get support for people. We need to have opportunities, jobs for people, like actually… Well, if they still have to pay rent, they still have to eat, they still have to survive. There has to be a way for them to do that, to have a safe community for everyone. So I'm really excited about that, in terms of the possibilities moving forward. At the end of the day, I don't have the ability to pull a lever and change our whole budget at the city or the state level- but we have a really good opportunity to prefigure our community's visions, our goals, and our demands, and really sharpen and focus those.
Ashley [01:10:23] Yeah. And this is also a chance for local governance between Black and Brown folks. I think that right now they're pitting us against each other through this whole migrant crisis. I don't know if you’ve seen the city council meetings? But yeah, I think it's a chance for us to have unconditional solidarity and work together towards not fighting for scraps, but fighting for a greater solution to our… to economic justice, to housing justice, to health care justice. It's a chance to work together with alder people, with other district councilors. I know that I'm in communication with other district councilors to see how they're doing and sending people their way. And it's just a chance to be in solidarity with each other and build something greater.
David [01:11:19] And it also seems like y'all are right for the job. Not to label that. Just hearing y'all, sitting with y’all for the last 60 minutes- y'all clearly are the ones meant for this role. And so to me, it's always beauty, because when I preach on B’nB it's always, “get in where you fit in”, right? And clearly y'all have found the space that y'all are meant to be in for the moment. That can change. Clearly, aspirations continue to want to push us to something different. But the fact that y'all are very understanding of where your role is, but also willing to continue to push. I think that’s always so encouraging.
And we were talking about the alderman episode, just a few months ago. And in that same vein, we’re just seeing that. We’re bringing in people who've been in the shits, as both of you all have been, and finally coming into a position or a place where they have a stronger level of authority. And not to mean that that makes or determines or emphasizes something, but it does create that stepping stone. I don't know. I'm so glad that y'all are in the position you’re in. I didn't vote for y’all. Just so y’all know.
Caullen [01:12:35] You weren’t even in the city. With your Berwyn ass.
David [01:12:44] But I’m glad it’s y’all! *laughing* Just cause it’s Juneteenth, he’s out here being all... fucking. He thinks it’s his day.
But not- and I think for us it's helpful, right? Because if we're not having these conversations, how are people who have criticism of this new thing going to be able to delve into think and to go beyond their own perspective? And it's having folks in spaces like this, like Bourbon 'n BrownTown, where we try to create- because the whole concept is we're just talking about it, right? And it's not like, we're not here- you're not representing the city of Chicago in this conversation. You’re not even defending your…-you're not, You're also not even… we're not talking shit, or excluding the third partner of your district.
What it is, is we're able to then highlight to folks who are listening, and then folks like Stephanie, like other folks, have named concerns- y’all are clearly willing and able to take that accountability from the people. And I think that's so unique, but that's also like, it's been primed. The road has been set for y'all to take advantage of it, so we are grateful that y'all are doing the work. And whether that's 20 hours a month, or that's 40, 60, 80 hours a month, the fact that y'all are definitely enveloped in this. And that y’all take the time to move forward, that only puts trust. And that's the goal. To put trust into these systems. Because I should be able to go to their district-
Caullen [01:14:18] Is that the goal?
David [01:12:20] Well, I mean, I don't know. I'm curious. Because to me it’s like, okay, cool, I want to be able to trust this thing. I want to be able to trust the police district councils to be better than what I was used to. And so that's a certain level of accountability. One thing I go back to, that accountability thing is like, people are looking to y'all because of how y'all got in. Or not. But it's exciting to me. I'm very excited learning more. Thank you all so much for hanging out with us and speaking through these things. Go ahead, D, you got something else to say.
David O. [01:14:49] Oh, about trust. A lot of us are from the movement, and we would like you to trust that we're going to work with you, and that we want to support you. I think that's important. But don't think that the struggle is over. That's the only thing.
Caullen [01:15:06] I think my concern comes from- I don't think the goal is to trust the state more. I think the goal is to maybe, like these two as individuals, to push the work that they and we have been doing for years, in this newer structure as it currently exists. But I think the goal is abolition. So with that, inherently trusting- I guess police or policing in general- but it's like, what we have to do to make it be better and help people in the interim, I guess?
And with that, I haven’t talked about this much, but… there- even back in the day to now, there’s been conversations of community control of the police, even though it had a lot more teeth decades ago. Even with CPAC whatever. We have what we have, we're working with and figuring it out. As you mentioned… is that even the goal? Having control of the police, even with an ordinance that has a lot of teeth, has a lot of power- I think it’d be better for sure. But is there another route, whether it's solely defunding and building other systems that are totally separate, or even accountability measures as much that is a faster track to abolition? I don't know, I'm just curious. But I have heard that argument before, as far as even an ordinance with a lot of teeth, like is that a track we want to go down?
David O. [01:16:35] I mean, we can even.. Even with people on the right, we can agree on the goal. Unless you're talking to people whose goal is specifically a racist hierarchy. But I mean, the goal is to have safe, thriving communities for everyone. And as you brought up at the beginning, state violence is inherently reactionary, it's not producing the safety that we need. We should definitely keep the goal in mind, we want to have no violence in our community. We want everyone to be supported and loved.
David [01:17:02] Yeah. And to me, when labeling trust, it's- not that I'm trusting the entire system, it’s that I'm trusting the people who have been put into this space, into this place, to act on what we voted them in for. Like in this situation, like we voted you into it. But I thinking like, the fact that you got 4,000 motherfuckers who were like, Yo, I want Ashley.
Caullen [01:17:26] I'm writing the whole name.
Ashley [01:17:27] Shout out to y’all!
David [01:17:31] But I do appreciate you, Caullen, for naming that specification. Because there are folks who will vote, and it's good. Vote blue..
Caullen [01:17:42] No matter who...
David [01:17:43] I hear it. We hear it. We hear it. But to me, it's like, after having a conversation with both y'all, it’s like, okay, cool, I may have been doubtful. And I may have been like, this is going to be… you know. But the fact that there's individuals who are based on organizing, who are based on community, who are based on accountability to y’alls peoples, that should create and does create, at least in myself, a stronger level of trust. Do I know the third person? No, I don't. But you know whatever. Do I know every district council? Do I know every… No. No, we don't. And that's where the things get muddled. That's where the things get tricky. That's where the system has done a wonderful job to maintain its status quo by misinformation, by not giving information, by hiding information. The system has done it's good job of doing it’s system. But when people like y'all, or people in places of power that come into the game, are like, Yo… I mean y’all heard the Jessie Fuentes episode where she’s like, Yo, if y’all ain’t trying to work with me, move out the way.
Caullen [01:18:48] Oh yeah, what did she say?
David [01:18:50] Because I asked, I was like, so what happens with alder people, clearly there's going to be differences. Byron, my man is a veteran, but Jessie was like, Nah, if you ain't in it, get out the way, move, this that the fifth.
[“Move Bitch” by Ludacris]
David [01:19:05] That's some of the fire that I feel that y'all are bringing to the game because it's new, right? Because it's that. It's not like y’all have been doing this for fucking 15 years where you're like, Well, I want this paycheck type shit, blah blah blah blah blah. Nah, it ain't it.
Caullen [01:19:19] David’s like, paycheck??
David [01:19:20] That’s what I wanted to get at. That's what I wanted to name in terms of, y'all are creating the trust for us where we have not had trust in these systems, in these accountability measures, in whatever you want to name. But in that still, the fact that y’all are still naming that beyond the trust of y’all, there's still work, best, to me that's where it’s at. To me, that’s the move. And if we're all under the same understanding that this is a stepping stool rather than the end goal, then that's only so much more exciting. Because the way y’all are naming it, you're going to other police- other district councils meetings and meeting motherfuckers. That's organizing 101. And I think the fact that y'all are able to implement that in this space where there could be FOP supporters, there could be cops, it could be a family cops…
Caullen [01:20:15] There could be Proud Boys.
David [01:20:16] And that’s…. you're naming that, right now in CPD you could be part of a white nationalist supremacy group and you're still allowed to be a cop. But there's a baseline.
Caullen [01:20:28] Arguably you’re already in one.
David [01:20:30] Ooo! But go ahead, Caullen. There you go.
Caullen [01:20:33] I appreciate that. I’m glad you kind of got that nuance of what trust means and looks like. And I think with the electeds and the alders, especially in Chicago that we know and like, I think they still kind of know, Hey I'm still in this position, and holding me accountable or whatever. But also like, doing the right thing in the first place makes it easy to hold you accountable, cause then I don’t have to, right? And so I think trust is an interesting theme with all of this. I think it is possible, to your point. And my thing, the thing about with what Damon said as far as this being an experiment, I think it… First and foremost, having folks like y’all in these roles to actually make things better, or at the very least not make things worse. But also, for folks on the outside to understand this is a stepping stone, this is a part one of many parts. I think the concern or fear comes from- kinda how certain folks think of voting- which I think every cycle is changing- but it's like, Okay, I just vote for this person, I’m supposed to do the thing. Or like, I believe in electoralism to solve all my issues, now this thing happened, or I got a blue president, everything is fine. Like, that’s where that fear comes in. But hopefully no one thinks that. But, I think people do, right?
David O. [01:21:46] Oh, they do.
Caullen [01:21:47] Or, this person is from this party, they said this thing.
David [01:21:48] “Biden is better than Trump.”
Caullen [01:21:49] Exactly. So it's like my… I won't say fear, but that's the pitfall with any kind of conversation around movement and electoralism is that the narrative is folks like, you like the right people, the right position is available. Now there's an Office of Accountability of some something else, great. Office of the Environment, great. No, it has to be funded and do the right things, and we have to see that and feel that.
And like, y'all have technically been in office for a month, this is a really different conversation. So we're going to see how it is. But that's also where my like, about the trust. I'm like, ahhhh! I want folks across the board to understand this structure is a stepping stone, and also any- all electoral positions are stepping stones to something greater.
David [01:22:32] And so as we're coming to a close here I would love to give y’all an opportunity to give a shout out to any of the homies, anybody, any of our mentors, any of our inspirations that are leading y’all and continue to lead y’all. Because as you mentioned, you said, and we glossed over it and we didn't mean to do so- but you named that there's been tears and already pain in this thing. And you just been in this game for a little bit. So we want to make sure to definitely give a space to shout out who are the ones who are wiping them tears. Who are the ones who are reinvigorating and encouraging y’all in a position, in a space where it is a little gray, and motherfucker are rightfully doubting. So definitely want to give that a shout.
Ashley [01:23:20] I mean, definitely shout out the ancestors who got us, with their prayers, they got us where we're at today. And shout out to my community for believing in me. And just know that I'm here to hold police accountable and start reimagining safety for us. And shout out to Cristina Pacione-Zayas. And her chief of staff, Graciela, who have always answered my call.
Caullen [01:23:57] *singing over Usher “You Don’t Have to Call”* You don't have to call. It’s okay, Ashley. Cause I’mma change some policy tonight.
David [01:24:05] I’m so dead. That's going to be the remix. Soon, soon. But that's so awesome, Ashley. Thank you for that. D, we've heard a lot from you. Any specific shout outs that you want to give to any of the homies?
David O. [01:24:18] Sure. Yeah, I didn't plan it. But definitely my mom, Anita, has supported me throughout my entire time as an activist organizer. Everything. So much support.
David [01:24:33] Shout out, mom! Mom, where are you at? Naw, it’s fine, it doesn't matter.
David O. [01:24:37] Yeah. As I mentioned, specifically for this role, Chicago Alliance as well as Carlos Rosa and UN35 being the community group behind Carlos, have been very helpful. And specifically, Levi Todd helped me a lot, navigate entering the electoral political sphere for the first time. Yeah, Levi was amazing in terms of everything, so many questions. Levi went around to, actually, I think four different alderman races to get as many leftists in office as possible over this last election. So a real powerhouse. Thanks, Levi. And thanks, UN35. Thank you, Chicago Alliance. Thanks, Anita. Thanks to everyone. My mom, that is.
Caullen [01:25:22] That is amazing. I don’t think I know Levi.
David [01:25:23] We gotta have them on, that's what I'm hearing.
David O. [01:25:26] Real cool cat.
Caullen [01:25:27] And shouting out the parents supporting and encouraging activist work, organizing work, that's big. It's huge.
David [01:25:36] Oof, I'm jealous. I'm jealous.
Caullen [01:25:37] It’s- I mean… Everyone comes to this and does different things in varying degrees, but it's.. This shit can be dangerous, and tiring, and there's obviously not a lot of money. Like, no money. So for a parent who wants either their children grow up and have a better life than they do and everything, and not be teargassed and stuff. Like, sorry, parents, we're out here. So, and I want to-
David O. [01:26:01] Carlos was our first progressive leftist politician in Chicago in a long time. And his family helped him a lot, too. Definitely. Especially on his first run.
David [01:26:09] Yeah, well, that's awesome to hear. Well, once again, thank y’all so much for joining Bourbon ‘n BrownTown in this conversation. We wish y’all the best in y’alls futures. We might have y’all back for a little three point, want to see like, Well, how’s it been? Talk to me. Is it… We got that motherfucker fired yet or not yet?
Ashley [01:26:28] Yeeeesss!
David [01:26:30] But on that, we're very excited. Community’s behind y’all. And so we're very grateful for y’all. And as always, all of the information will always be available on our episode notes, soapboxpo.com/podcast. Check it all out. Make sure you're there because we said a bunch of shit that I didn't even know what the fuck they meant.
Caullen [01:26:50] Have a little glossary for terms.
David [01:26:52] Yeah, a little glossary of terms, make sure it was good. But once again, knowledge is power. Power is it. And so without further ado, from Bourbon ‘n BrownTown, Stay Black. Stay Brown. Stay queer.
Caullen [01:27:03] Stay tuned. Stay turnt.
David [01:27:05] See ya for the next one.
OUTRO
Music by Fiendsh