BrownTown shares space with the Hoodoisie hosts Ricardo Gamboa and Charles Preston and Executive Director Mia Carbajal in the return of "Whiskey & Watching." BrownTown and the Hoodoise deconstruct the Oscar Best Picture "Everything Everywhere All At Once" (2022): When an interdimensional rupture unravels reality, a middle-aged Chinese immigrant must channel her newfound powers to fight bizarre and bewildering dangers from the multiverse as the fate of her family and the world hangs in the balance.
BrownTown shares space with the Hoodoisie hosts Ricardo Gamboa and Charles Preston and Executive Director Mia Carbajal in the return of "Whiskey & Watching." BrownTown and the Hoodoise deconstruct the Oscar Best Picture "Everything Everywhere All At Once" (2022): When an interdimensional rupture unravels reality, a middle-aged Chinese immigrant must channel her newfound powers to fight bizarre and bewildering dangers from the multiverse as the fate of her family and the world hangs in the balance. From philosophical nodes on decision-making under capitalism to nihilism in modern activism, the squad brings in their perspectives on love, queerness, combatting patriarchy, growing up in immigrant families, and the opportunities for grounded representation of people of color in media. Through the heaviness of it all, Charles just encourages us to, "embrace the whimsical."
GUESTS
The Hoodoisie (1, 2) is a block-optic, radically politicized, biweekly live news show based in a different gentrifying neighborhood every month. Ricardo and Charles invite artists, activists, comedians, saboteurs, political figures, culture makers, and musical guests to share their experiences, perspectives, and talents. The Hoodoisie gives "the chance for everyday people [particularly queer, working-class, and people of color] to engage in the discourse that shapes their lives that they’re often excluded from.” Imagine if The Daily Show got hijacked by radical POC and queers and they brought along a DJ and a bar...that's the Hoodoisie. Come out for a conversation and follow Hoodoisie on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube! Follow Ricardo on Instagram and Twitter; Charles on Instagram and Twitter; and Mia on Instagram and Twitter!
CREDITS: Intro soundbite and episode photo from Everything Everywhere All At Once. Outro music is Foldin Clothes by J. Cole. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles.
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BrownTown shares space with the Hoodoise hosts Ricardo Gamboa and Charles Preston and Executive Director Mia Carbajal in the return of "Whiskey & Watching." BrownTown and the Hoodoise deconstruct the Oscar Best Picture "Everything Everywhere All At Once" (2022): When an interdimensional rupture unravels reality, a middle-aged Chinese immigrant must channel her newfound powers to fight bizarre and bewildering dangers from the multiverse as the fate of her family and the world hangs in the balance.
INTRO
(Intro sound bite from “Everything Everywhere All At Once”)
[00:00:40] Movie Clip: Evelyn, I'm not your husband. I'm another version of him from another universe. I'm here because we need your help. Very busy today, no time to help you. Across the multiverse, I've seen thousands of their memories, their emotions, even their skills. There's a great evil spreading throughout the many verses. And you... may be our only chance of stopping it.
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:28] David: I'd like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy, David, coming in on this wonderful, hot, finally, summer Chi day. Like, for reals, for reals, I'm wearing shorts for the first time all year.
[00:01:38] Caullen: Showing them thighs, son.
[00:01:40] David: Intentional as fuck.
[00:01:41] Caullen: Show them Brown thighs, let me see them.
[00:01:42] David: They need, they're fucking, they pale, but we'll get them there. We'll get them there. As always, I'm with my boy Caullen. Bro, how you doing today?
[00:01:49] Caullen: I'm feeling good now. I feel like we both came into this space, space being my apartment/ our now recording studio, tired and nervous and just kind of running on fumes. But I feel reinvigorated now. Got some caffeine and whiskey in me so I'm like, you know, feeling the flow a little bit. Also I got shorts on, which feels good. I had some real short shorts on earlier because I just taught some fitness classes, and I was like, I'm going to be respectful and wear some like, some denim today. But David, how are you feeling?
[00:02:18] David: Uhh... confused now, but nah.. No, we're doing all right. Once again, I think feeling that stroke of heat, heat, you know, it's not just like, oh, it's nice outside. It's like, oh shit, I'm sweating. *laughing* you're like, you know, it's definitely telling. But we're very excited. I think for us, for all of our listeners, as you know, we try to continuously bring in new things and conversations constantly being them. And one of the things that we really heard from y'all that was incredibly popular was the Whiskey & Watching, right? And so here we are with our first Whiskey & Watching of 2023. *glass clink* And so I'm really excited and kind of hyped to be able to be that role again. You know, like, we're watching, we're analyzing film, like, let's talk about it. Let's get to the nitty gritty and maybe get drunk while we talk about it. But yeah, feeling good. What about any specific thoughts on our film today?
[00:03:12] Caullen: Umm.. We'll find out. I mean, as you know, I watched the film, like, hours ago. And was also watching kind of tired, paying attention as much as I can. So, definitely have thoughts and feels and everything, but I'm really happy to be able to lean on some great guests to dig through the nuances, some of the obvious themes, some of the stuff that's happening just in the real world behind the film, and right now in Hollywood. So excited to get into it. And that film is, Everything Everywhere All At Once. And moving forward, kind of table set a little bit, the film won Best Picture in 2023. It came out last year.
[00:03:47] David: Incredibly exciting just to see the cast and crew when they're present, they definitely have this genuine care and love for one another. And I really think that you, like that needs, that needed to have been curated and made in real life for us to have seen and witnessed the way we see them in the film.
[00:04:06] That's just part of what I think that kind of needs to come to. But, I don't know. It was definitely exciting just to be able to see the representation. I think, the.... I forget his name, but didn't realize he was the one in Indiana Jones, and he hadn't done anything else prior to, so it was kind of also his second into coming in films. And then there's that whole conversation of like, well, why wasn't he in films? Well because there wasn't a paper for his role type thing. So there's little things like that. But to your point, incredibly excited. With us today we have The Hoodoisie.
[00:04:41] Charles: I'm Charles Preston. Co-host of The Hoodoisie. Just a regular guy from Chicago.
[00:04:46] Mia: Thanks for having us. I'm Mia Carbajal, Executive Director of The Hoodoisie. Joined recently in January.
[00:04:54] Ricardo: Hey, what's up? My name is Ricardo Gamboa, or [American accent] Ricardo Gamboa. I am the creator and co-host of The Hoodoisie. I am not regular. At all. I'm a born and raised on the South side, and have been making kind of radical work here in the city for about over a couple of decades.
[00:05:13] Caullen: "A couple of decades". That has to be as a very interesting progression of the most humblest bio from Charles, and like, still pretty humble, then we get to Ricardo it's like, y'all motherfuckers need to know my name. Both of them.
[00:05:28] Charles: I'm just over activists.
[00:05:30] Ricardo: Yeah, I'm over activist, but also the other thing that always, but also I just really feel like humility and modesty are overrated virtues. Particularly like, when you're Mexican, like in a country where you just want us to fucking like clean your fucking shit and be your fucking busboys, I'm not the one bitch. I'm a faggot. I'm rowdy. You know what I mean?
[00:05:50] David: What I would love to do is, for folks who are listening in and are unfamiliar with The Hoodoisie, is there an elevator spiel that y'all got for the people?
[00:05:59] Charles: Yeah. Block-optic, radical politics we're a live news show. Think of like, what, like, the Today Show but with people who know what the fuck they're talking about in terms of radical politics.
[00:06:10] Caullen: Got him.
[00:06:11] Charles: So... and not just- when we say radical, we don't mean, vote Dem. We mean like, we're going to discuss anarchism, communism, socialism, all the fucking left -isms that you can name. And have fun while doing it, and it's free, and we try to build community, right?
[00:06:32] Ricardo: Yeah, I would say like, part of the... like the show is kind of at the nexus of what I think really defines both people of color, queer, and queer of color reality, right? Which is like, you know, we're kind of addressing a lot of this shit and the issues that have a direct impact on our lives, while at the same time, you know, partying, right?
[00:06:56] Like, as a queer person, yeah, like you're always targeted for eradication, but you find your way to the queer club. You find your way under the disco ball. Like, as a person of color, your communities are heavily policed; like you are a vulnerable population, but at the same time, you have those basement parties, like you juke in the backyard, right? You get high with your homies on stoops. And so part of the show is kind of embodying that. And then also I would say like, we always like to think that we're giving the chance for everyday people to kind of engage the discourse that shapes their lives but they're often excluded from.
[00:07:30] And so, you know, it's kind of just that idea of, like, like Charles said, it's like the Today Show, or like the Trevor Noah show- the Daily Show if it got hijacked by radical POC and queers, and we brought along a DJ and a bar.
[00:07:42] Charles: Yeah. It's like, I think news is- the people and corporations that distribute news show like power, they have power in controlling narratives. So I think of like, it is radical for folks of the community, of Chicago, to have their own fucking news show that is accessible to all. And you know us, you see us out in different events and whatnot. We're not some people that you click on the TV and see, got some crazy ass headlines and all; you can check us and hold us accountable in person. And yeah, we're kind of unapologetic about how our approach to news.
[00:08:25] Caullen: I love that. And I love what y'all do. And I think about y'all, I think about AirGo, I think about just other folks doing that same kind of shit and having fun with it. We're in-
[00:08:34] David: finding joy in it.
[00:08:34] Caullen: We're in our, you know, makeshift podcast studio/my office/my crib. Now, there's a poster of V For Vendetta on the wall and I think about that film, he says, "a revolution without dancing is not a revolution worth having". I believe that shit, you know what I mean? I feel like y'all do too. And so I feel like having all those components in one is important. And I think, I've mentioned this on this podcast before, but like, one of my lessons from 2020 was that leaning into joy, like in all the phases throughout. And living liberation while we're working for it on all these different spheres. And not to like, this might be a stretch, but to table set the film itself as a quick synopsis if you're unfamiliar- I'm looking, reading off IMDB, but, "Everything Everywhere All At Once is about a middle-aged Chinese immigrant who is swept up in an insane adventure in which she alone can save existence by exploring other universes and connecting with lives she could have led".
[00:09:26] And so, I don't know, I think like, one thing you gotta mention as far as where this film, when it came out last year, not to, like.. The multiverse isn't a new concept, by any means, even pop culture; but I do think it would be irresponsible not to name that #### Marvel has like, made that more popular, more expansive as far as their phases, and how their films have gone, and an interest in multiverse so vast amount of people who aren't deep into sci-fi or liberation theology or whatever. And so, I think this film coming on the heels of that is interesting in a way that folks are primed to it more than they would be otherwise. And then this hits, and, in my view, is, I wouldn't necessarily say deeper, but there's more notes to unpack and think about. And so I just think table setting how the masses come into thinking more deeply about these things, whether it's getting involved in movement or not, I think is important, especially the work that y'all do and some of what we do.
[00:10:23] Mia: I mean, I would agree. And when we were- when I first watched the film with my partner and his 15 year old son, there was a lot of comparisons to Marvel, and we were talking about like, think of this as like, if, you know, Thanos was this, like, character and trying to do some of that comparison. But I think what makes it so realistic and so special is that it's this constant reminder that we're all one to two decisions away from a radically different life. That I think is what makes the film so compelling.
[00:10:56] David: Thank you for centering the film, Caullen. I think, if you haven't seen it, feel free to press pause, go watch the film, or watch and listen to it at the same time. Might be a lot of work, to be honest, because it's definitely a fucking film. And I don't know, I feel like IMDB didn't do the film justice.
[00:11:10] Caullen: I was trying to be short with it.
[00:11:11] David: No, no, no, I hear you, I hear you. But I was like, I don't know, I'd like to- to me, granted, I'm definitely someone who's like, if I'm gonna watch something, you got to have my undivided attention. This flew under the radar in my brain, up until we talked about it.
[00:11:23] Caullen: Really?!
[00:11:23] David: Yeah dead ass. I just didn't see anything. And then so to me, when I sat with it, my first thing was like I didn't see Marvel, I saw The Matrix.
[00:11:33] Ricardo: Yeah, I was about to say, I see it very much in the tradition of The Matrix as well. Yeah.
[00:11:38] David: Yeah. And so, you know, thinking about it like that- but then, you know, and we're going to rip these bandages off real quick- then it got like Encanto real quick, you know what I'm saying? So it got like a Pixar movie meets The Matrix. That's how I started feeling. I'm crying during a Kung Fu scene. And she says, I love you. And I said, fuck... you know. So it was like, I don't know, I think that the IMDB thing, they gotta step it up. Maybe Wiki got a better thing for it.
[00:12:02] But I did kinda wanna get a general consensus of folks, or just feeling from folks, of what was y'all first thoughts as y'all are engaging this piece of film?
[00:12:12] Charles: Yeah, I think there's a lot packed into this movie. A lot of shit, a lot of themes. I saw a story about an immigrant family. Women navigating patriarchy. The weight of capitalism on the family. There's a LGBTQ discourse happening in the film. Yeah, I think there's a lot of overarching themes; but I think the centerpiece for me, in terms of the film, is using radical possibility or like imagination to harness the tools necessary to survive the now.
[00:12:55] And I think that is a realization for many people who are surviving, right? So like, I think escapism is a big theme in the movie as well. The fact that like she's, you know, at one point she's like doing her taxes, right? And fucking with this like, very white-capitalistic-United States-construct, right? And then she reverts back into another alternative universe where she can be something more. You're not just a person sitting here doing their fucking taxes. No, you have the possibility- the possibilities of you are actually endless. You're just trapped or you need something that can break through your current...um... yeah, your current way of thinking, your mentality or something. Because at first she was in disbelief like, you're not Alpha- what the fuck is a Alpha Waymond? You know what I'm saying? Who are you, you're not my husband? But to me, it represents something external; poking at the conscious or like the normalcy of today and trying to drag you out to say, here, here, this is radical possibility, and this is what you need to do to survive your current situation.
[00:14:07] Ricardo: I love that.
[00:14:09] Mia: I guess the- what I would add to that, and I think what stuck out to me, you know, is the big theme of the mother and daughter relationship. And how that theme carried in all of the different multiverses was this tension between the protagonist and her daughter. And I think what, you know, as an immigrant, my mom for so long, before I think I've discovered my politics, my mom was the impetus for everything I did. She's the reason I went to school, she's the reason I got good grades, she was everything because as the daughter of an immigrant you're taught you have to make your parents sacrifices worth it. You have to make laundry, and taxes, and your parents fights and everything, you internalize that something has to justify that. And that has to be you.
[00:14:59] And we don't- and I feel like to see a film portray how that pressure can break someone to the point that you're this villain across so many multiverses and what the deep healing is necessary out of that was what put this film on another level. And I'm really happy that they did it with an Asian family, you know, coming out of, we've seen a lot of articles come through about the theory of "the tiger mom", which is like a very... I don't know what the term is, but you know, there's been this depiction that Asian parents are really hard on everything. But for me, I'm like, no, this is just an immigrant thing. Like, this is what you feel when all of the weight of your parents sacrifices, and the decisions and what they didn't get to make out of their life, you're supposed to manifest it for them.
[00:15:48] Ricardo: So like, I fuckin loved this movie before, like, it came out. Like, I knew I was gonna fuckin love this movie. Me and my husband are obsessed with film. Like, you know what I mean? And this is just like, I feel like the movie itself.... like, we flew. Like, for us going to see a movie it's not just like what the content is, but it's also the experience. And my favorite movie-going experience is the Alamo Drafthouse, and downtown LA. So we flew to go watch the movie on its opening night in the Alamo Drafthouse in downtown LA. And then loved it so much we rented out a movie theater so that like, all my family and all of our family and friends could come and watch it. Cause my parents, they'd be like, I ain't gonna watch this weird ass fucking movie, like, you know what I mean? They're kind of like hood, they're like, I'm not about to watch this #### shit, like, yeah.
[00:16:29] Caullen: [voice] You see, yes! And the themes of blahblahblahblah... Like, what are you saying?
[00:16:32] Ricardo: Yeah! And actually, like, they wouldn't watch it because it's not Marvel, right? And you're right, because like, they, Marvel did kind of introduce a concept that's really heady and make it kind of grounded. And so I fucking, like.. And this film, for me, it was already so exciting to see someone like Michelle Yeoh, who, you know, since Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, I was like, you know.. As a queer person, I've always identified with the femmes in movies, I was like, I'm that bitch, you know what I mean? Longing for love. Like, you know what- I'm longing for forbidden love. I know what that's like. And so like, you know, in Super Cop and her kind of like, her filmography leading up to this, it was kind of just so exciting that she was going to be in this role. And then even someone like Jamie Lee Curtis as, someone that's like a huge horror film, like those things were exciting, and that also love Goonies. It's my dream to write a Black and Brown riff on Goonies. So there's all these ways in which the movie was exciting.
[00:17:23] And similarly, I was like, Oh, shit, it's on some like... it reminded me more of Matrix when I was watching it. But I think like, stepping back a little bit, I don't think we've seen... a movie that so unabashedly embraces the possibilities of queerness, and the politics of queerness. And it's not just in some type of content of this reconciliation between the queered-other daughter and the mother. But even it's just laced in so many ways throughout the film that kind of upend and challenge our... the sedimented norms and dominant forces of culture that, you know, uphold society as is, that are completely rooted in a dequeered universe. And so I think there was that, that was really cool.
[00:18:12] And then the other part of it was looking at what something like US cinema should be. And I'm saying that because when you, you know, it's created, Daniel Kwan, who's one of the creators of it, is an immigrant, is, I believe, first or second generation. And, you know, is Asian American immigrant. And so what you see there is this type of like... this collision of aesthetics that can only happen, right? It's like, even the storytelling is nonlinear in a lot of ways. Even the way it takes US pop cultural symbols with like- you know, it's just like a hybrid aesthetics that are at play. And I'm like, this is always what US cinema should have looked like. And it's what it should have looked like a long time ago, because we do have these kind of multiplicity of cultures here, and aesthetic references and frames, and so I was excited to see all that at play.
[00:19:02] Caullen: If we're going to talk about the melting pot, you know...
[00:19:04] Charles: yeah
[00:19:05] Caullen: Eye roll, quote unquote, whatever. Like, let's do it, and let's do it in pop culture, let's do it in film.
[00:19:10] Ricardo: Well, it shows that it's not just like- that actually, I think it's exciting because it upends the melting pot. It talks about competing lenses, and standpoints, and epistemologies of how you can look at the world. Because as an immigrant, you never- and as someone that comes from communities of colors, you never look at time as just an individual in your thing. You're carrying people with you and you feel that, you know what I mean? Whether it's like the traditions that you observe, or the objects in your home that reference.
[00:19:36] Like my grandmother, from the rancho in México, she kind of like, when you go into her kitchen and she's got like cow wallpaper, cow salt and peppers, like everything is fucking cow. And it's cause like, this bitch is trying to bring the rancho in México with her. And she remembers like, it's like this is the way to bring the cows that she raised on her farm with her. And I'm like, fuck, here I am in this like, you know... on the south side of Chicago in fucking Evergreen Park, and there's this piece of this recreation there. So there's this way in which the film is doing some of that that I think is really fucking cool.
[00:20:08] David: Caullen, what about you, man?
[00:20:11] Caullen: I forgot the original question. *talking over each other*
[00:20:15] Charles: What you think about the movie, bro? *laughing*
[00:20:16] David: Take it.
[00:20:17] Caullen: Umm... I enjoyed everything y'all already mentioned. I mean, like, "D", everything, all the above, pretty much... I watch films through a lot of different lenses now, as I'm sure it's similar to probably all y'all, especially you, Ricardo. But you know, part of me was like, this sound design is fucking baller.
[00:20:35] Ricardo: Oh, the score was fucking gorgeous.
[00:20:36] Caullen: Not even the score. I mean, the score was great, but just like the *sound effects*. The foley, I'm like, oh, this is just someone in laundromat, but I just feel like I'm there. You know what I mean? All those really technical pieces obviously look beautiful. And all the VFX, and how they had to move to all these different worlds and you felt like you were in a different world. Even just the letterboxing of certain universes, and having full frame for other ones. All of that I really tried to grapple on to.
[00:20:58] But also all those things and how they worked together. And how... I think mentioning the Marvel thing for me early on, as far as a bigger pop culture context, I don't know how to name the framework but it also played into all the things we already mentioned. The way they layer everything, how it's like very much an entryway but also they get super deep really fast is a thread in storytelling that is hard to do. Everything encodes our values matter what it is, so let's talk about it all. Let's make it better and hold it a higher standard in a way.
[00:21:27] David: Like I didn't even know Jamie Lee Curtis was in the film. I mean deadass. I didn't recognize her until... when they're In one of the universes where they're like the hot dog fingers one. I was like, yo, what the fuck? *laughing* Yeah, like I just, it didn't click on me. You know what I'm saying? And I do think like, while the film- while there is a lot that goes on in the film, I do think I really appreciate the pace that it gave it to us. It was like, to your point, it was like, it seemed like, okay, here's this film about this family and they're struggling and taxes suck. Like, I get it. And then my man goes into his kung fu phase or whatever.
[00:22:04] Caullen: He went crazy with that fanny pack...
[00:22:05] David: Started beating the shit out of security guards. My was shit was like, okay, that's where like, Matrix... immediately. And so, I'm bouncing back and forth, back and forth. And one thing I just wanna touch on before it moves on- I I heard you, Ricardo, where you said like, invite your family because they wouldn't watch it any other way. And like, I second that. And I think some of it is even like, like my dad has issues with other people's accents. But I'm like, mother fucker, what about your accent? *laughing* That's another podcast episode. But even the... like, for me even, the subtitles, I had to remove it because the subtitles would jump on top of the thing.
[00:22:38] So I just want to talk about accessibility and like why it's intentionally hard for people to sometimes dive into these films. Cause like, my dad needs subtitles if there's accents, and then they're going back and forth from Cantonese to English. And then, so my dad got lost halfway through the film, and he fell asleep. So whatever. But I think I just wanting to name that right, as like, these are obstacles that are created, I feel intentionally. Cause I think, you know, granted I saw it on a subscription to Showtime. The film isn't accessible. Like, you can't grab it unless you go through these specific avenues. But we'll save that. We'll table that there.
[00:23:14] Caullen: I'm curious for you, David, about the... I don't know what you're about to get into, but the generational component of it.
[00:23:20] David: Well, no, that's actually where I was going to go. I think to me, it was really, really exciting. That's why I probably named Encanto. And granted, I actually haven't seen Encanto.
[00:23:27] Ricardo: I will never watch it.
[00:23:27] David: I've just heard-
[00:23:28] Charles: I've never seen it.
[00:23:30] Caullen: Ricky was very silent when you mentioned it initially.
[00:23:32] David: Y'all seen Coco?
[00:23:34] Ricardo: Yeah. I saw it years after it came out. Cause I was like, I called it "Caca for two".
[00:23:39] Caullen: Let's... I want... can we pause? I want to hear more about this.
[00:23:42] Ricardo: I mean, I just have this really big issue with, when we talk about this type of mainstream type of offerings that are offered to Latino audiences, particularly in the US, that they cannot help but cast us in these indigenous pasts, or in these motherlands with these kind of pastoral looks on what Latinidad actually is or what these cultures actually are, even outside of this fantasy construction of Latinidad. And so, as someone that's born and raised on the south side of Chicago that comes from parents that grew up on the south side of Chicago as well, I'm ready to see Latino reality that's not just pastoralized "Día de los Muertos" or fucking like, you know... this type of shit. I'm just like, let's move on. And not that it was like- when I did watch Coco, I thought it was beautiful, and I cried, and there was a lot of ingenuity in it. I was also sick and I was in Spain and like, we had like, several threesomes. *over talking* It was a long week of just like, you know, so I was like, I love, I'm just partying and shit. So it could have been just the hangover, but you know, I feel like I do feel there's a lot of ingenuity in there. So that's kind of my take on a lot of that type of media.
[00:24:49] And it was refreshing to see something like Everything Everywhere All at Once that actually is like, no, these people can be in the present. They can be in the present, and they can actually carry their homelands with them, and they exist even generationally in these different ways, diffused or in concentrated in moments within a body. And so to me, that was kind of exciting. And I can't wait for Latino cinema, Latino television to catch up. And then also catch up with the imagination of it, right? It wasn't just like... which, we often get these kind of immigrant tales, or these Puerto Rican hood tales from New York, or Nuyorican tales. And so to see something that was so much more- and then also that was queer, that was femme driven, that shit was fucking cool as hell for me. And also I'm politically against Lin Manuel Miranda.
[00:25:40] Caullen: I've seen your posts. And everyone else's, and my own. So like, there's that.
[00:25:47] Charles: I mean, Hamilton sucks balls.
[00:25:49] Ricardo: I mean, like, it's just like... it's violent, you know what I'm saying?
[00:25:53] Charles: You got rapping colonizers, like.... What made you think of that? That's crazy.
[00:26:01] David: I mean, they sold tickets.
[00:26:03] Charles: A lot of tickets.
[00:26:04] Mia: They still do.
[00:26:04] Caullen: I mean, a lot of violence sells.
[00:26:07] David: But, no, and I think just to continue passing around the torch in conversation of generational beings, I think it was so interesting to see that the film was constantly through the perspective of the Chinese woman. And I think in that perspective, it was awesome to see the growth, but it's also very understanding on that moment. I think to Ricardo's point of like, we have something that demonstrates people in the present. I think one thing- I'm not saying that Coco does that, and I'm not saying that Encanto does either. My thing is like, I won't watch it because I'm just going to fucking cry myself to sleep type shit. And like, yeah, we'd rather not. But to me, this film brought it to the forefront, and also brought what I think is important- and I'm curious to hear y'all thoughts on the decisions that we make or don't make.
[00:27:01] In the reality of the protagonist it was like, you have made every bad decision in order for you to finally be able to make this good one. And so there's this like, dare I say, re-imaginative vision of like, you can make all the worst decisions in your life, but they're for a reason or some shit. And so to me, when it comes to generational shit, it's like, my parents crossed the border with my mom pregnant for a reason. And to what Mia was talking about, sometimes we're given the definitions of how we should value these things, right? And I think the film demonstrates that in a way that I wouldn't have known for that type of a family- my family doesn't own a business. But, you know, X, Y, and Z that we can factor in. But curious to hear y'all's thoughts as we start going into this rabbit hole of the film.
[00:27:51] Charles: Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. Cause now I'm thinking about, you know, what all goes into making a decision. And for like, I think a lot of minorities, when we make a decision, we're thinking about our whole families. You know.
[00:28:04] David: Thinking about tomorrow.
[00:28:06] Charles: Yeah, we're thinking about people we're bringing along with us. So, is that truly our selfish decision, or is it us thinking that- putting our family before us, putting our mothers before us, putting so many people before us. So, I don't know. I'm trying to think about how much of myself am I putting into these decisions, and is that- could that be read as good or bad?
[00:28:33] Some people be like, you know, be fucking selfish. You know what I'm saying? Do you. And I think when it comes to watching the movie, I feel like Evelyn, you know, the main character, of course she was making decisions for herself, but everything was tied to the relationship she's had with her family and the need for survival. And so for this external entity to come and be like, well, all the decisions you make were fucked up and bad, I'm like, I was kind of like-
[00:29:01] Caullen: It's so reductive.
[00:29:02] Charles: I was trying to navigate that. I'm like.
[00:29:03] Caullen: Yeah, that was fucked up. That was so reductive. Oh yeah. I mean.
[00:29:06] Charles: So I don't know. I'm thinking on that.
[00:29:08] Mia: I think what I would just share is, you know- and just going to Ke Huy Quan's character, I hope I'm saying his name right, but I watched the Oscars before I saw Everything Everywhere All At Once. And I was like, okay, he won the Best Actor. Similarly, Indiana Jones was a staple in my home, so I was like, Oh my God, this is shorty! *laughing* And so I was watching that movie and it's an hour in and I'm like, okay, what did he do to win him this award? Because... And I think it was that moment when they were hopping between universes, because in the present universe he's very much depicted as the stereotypical effeminate Asian man that, you know, all of the stereotypes that come with that. And Evelyn is having this moment where she's like, did I make the wrong choice? Like, I ran away with this man, started a life in America, I'm miserable, all these things. And you're trying to see, what's the thing? And for a moment- so, I relocated to Chicago because I got engaged. I left my life in the Bay area, and I was like, damn, I understand what it's like to take a leap for love. I hope this ends in a happy ending, because like....
[00:30:12] Caullen: Like, girl, I feel you. I feel you.
[00:30:14] David: Well, Chicago's definitely a W.
[00:30:18] Mia: And, you know, as I'm watching it. But it was so beautiful to see how, even though he was more masculine in these other universes- how he was more this fighter, this kung fu fighter, and all these things- at the end of the day, it was who he was in that reality that allowed Evelyn to both humanize her daughter, see her plight, for him to de-escalate that situation with the tax agent. And I think it really showed his strength. And like Charles said in the beginning, the theme of patriarchy, I feel like his character was hit by the patriarchy amongst the most.
[00:30:51] Caullen: Hundred percent.
[00:30:52] Mia: And how his present reality. And it wasn't until that scene when he was like, I just want to do- I would rather have done laundry and taxes with you forever. I cried-.... when I tell you, that Denzel tear came out my eye... I was like- that one monologue, yes! Win all the awards. So I mean, I feel like that's how I was really seeing.
[00:31:12] Charles: That line ain't working in the streets, bro. *laughing*
[00:31:15] David: Fact check it.
[00:31:19] Ricardo: I don't know if I saw it so much as like, you know, whether decisions were good or bad as much as it was about the way the decisions, as I was kind of reading, it was the way these- like, what do your decisions reinforce? What reality do they reinforce? And so like, even when you kind of think about the way they were able to transgress out of this universe into other universes, it was by making the non-normative choice.
[00:31:43] Caullen: Yeah. Sure.
[00:31:43] Ricardo: And so for me, it's about these ways in which normalcy or dominant culture, and even routed desire and routed notions of success and aspirations, kind of begin contouring our decisions or the decisions that we think are the realm of possibility for us.
[00:32:00] Caullen: Yeah.
[00:32:00] Ricardo: And so- and limits our horizons of possibility and what we can see in the frame. Not just the, like in the frames of how we're even curating the possibilities of our life. So like, I thought that shit was kind of just brilliant. And cause even when you think about that scene with Waymond, Ke Huy's character, that there is... when he says that, what it's talking about on certain levels, is that even within this reality that he also doesn't feel fully fulfilled in the way Evelyn didn't, that he finds that he excavates this joy, this love, this passion, and this other way of being, this alternative way of approaching reality that doesn't limit possibility. And so I thought that shit was kind of really, really cool.
[00:32:46] Caullen: Yeah. I'm thinking about the idea of choice and making decisions in general. And thinking through what I think the Matrix kind of did too, which was kind of a capitalist analysis, right. It's like, okay, is it actually a choice? Is it actually a decision? And how do we... I think at the beginning it was very much making decisions, because out of survival, and kind of patriarchy, white supremacy, all the -isms, all the things that impacts folks, especially on the other end of that. And so, near the end, it felt like they were making decisions that both allowed them to survive in a way, but also was truer to their self after they unpacked that throughout all these literal universes, and also this whole journey at the same time. And I think about, you mentioned about the... what's homeboy's name? The husband's?
[00:33:29] Mia: Waymond?
[00:33:29] Caullen: Waymond, the husband's character, how he's trying to navigate patriarchy and how that shows up in all these different universes. And at the end how does the conflict get de-escalated? He has a conversation. He's diplomatic and talks to the agent and he fixes everything. He doesn't fight anybody. It's not hyper masculine, hyper over the top. He just... talks to them.
[00:33:51] Mia: And made her cookies.
[00:33:53] Caullen: And made her cookies on top of that! So it's like, subverting these norms, these -isms. But also living within these frameworks at the same time. How those frameworks are in all the universes as well. But also they come up a little differently. So the multiplicity to me is a theme through everything we're saying, but also the idea of choice and decision making, and how much of that actually is free will and whatever, whatever, whatever. But I think that's encoded in here as well, but not in a super heavy handed way, but it's just, it's definitely there. And it's relatable. Like the laundry and taxes got to me a lot cause I'm like, yeah, that's all I did in April. That's all I fucking did. You know what I'm saying? I got laundry on my bed right now. And so it's just like... yeah, everyone can relate to that.
[00:34:31] Charles: I think that's what kind of makes it work is that their lives is just pretty much mundane. You know, you just own a laundromat, and they have this regular ass family. And they do taxes. They really don't do much. So I think a part of the film is finding the remarkable and the unremarkable.
[00:34:48] So, and it explicitly shows this before we ever know of this.. Alpha Waymond, there's this point when Evelyn, I guess, has her back turned or something, and the cameras are going, and he's doing flips and stuff in the laundromat and shit. And it's like... if she wasn't so blinded by her day to day, her normalcy, and what she expects, and the limitations of her reality, then she would just turn her head and see her husband just going crazy. Like, doing some remarkable shit.
[00:35:20] But it just seems like, you know... And that's where the part of capitalism comes in for me. They have us stuck on this hamster wheel of only seeing what's in front of us, and not really paying attention to outside possibility. And I think Ricky made a good point, like, talking about how we access our imagination. And the fact that these characters really had to- for them to even jump, they had to do some weird shit. You know, you gotta-
[00:35:48] Caullen: Weird as hell, bro.
[00:35:49] Charles: You gotta choose some damn lip gloss, or chapstick. You gotta sit on the butt plug. You gotta... you know.. So it tells you about the radicality and queerness, that's how I read that. And then also just thinking outside the box. You're gonna have to do some shit that society probably frowns upon in order to make radical change.
[00:36:09] David: There's a bar we'll insert, it's like, there's a bar that says, "the truth will always sound ridiculous to those who don't understand it."
[00:36:16] Ricardo: I'm thinking about the stuff around like, this is where I feel like so much of the queerness of the film really becomes apparent and legible in the politics. Cause like, I think it's.. I don't know if I would just read Waymond as someone that's been alienated through patriarchy as much as he's actually a victor against it. He's actually said that this normative way for men to deal is not the way I'm going to deal, that I'm actually going to use kindness and I'm going to actually use this other kind of way.
[00:36:42] And I feel like... when you think about José Muñoz, Disidentifications or Cruising Utopia, queer theorists that talks about hope as a queer hermeneutic. And so like, that's one of the things that he's constantly bringing. Or even with Charles, it was talking about finding the remarkable in the unremarkable. You think about Andy Warhol, who's a queer artist, although that aspect of his identity is often elided in discussions about him, but he's famous for saying, "Oh gosh, oh, wow," whenever he would look at something. And so it's kind of interesting because he had that idea of astonishment. And if you have that idea of astonishment when you look at shit, then of course you're gonna be like, this is not just a Campbell's soup can, this is some shit that, you know, this commodity is actually always art. And it also then means that when you look at something and you say, your response is, "oh gosh Oh, wow," that you like it, you're astonished by it.
[00:37:34] And so it flips the thing that- one of the things that Waymond loves his life and he can see his life differently because of it. As which we believe is like, you see something and then you like it.
[00:37:45] Charles: Yeah.
[00:37:45] Ricardo: But no, what if you like something and then you could fully see it. Which is what Evelyn wasn't doing. She wasn't liking and then seeing, and so then she gets to see it. So to me there's that queer slice in it as well. And then again the non-normative possibility of queerness that actually gets all kind of catalyzed because this queer daughter, in other universes, does queer refusal and says, this world is not- I will not take this world. And so I think that's where all the queerness in the film is so coded and so beautiful. And then, yeah, we got motherfuckers leaping on butt plugs. That's never happened to me, I'm so pissed. Like I never channeled into an extra universal self when I used one. But, you know what I'm saying?
[00:38:29] David: You're not doing it right, clearly.
[00:38:30] Caullen: Not yet. Not yet. Don't sell yourself short now.
[00:38:32] Charles: I think that, yeah, there's obvious takeaways that I think we can come away with. I think it tells parents to reconsider how they view their children. Because it was just so obvious that... the child, the daughter's queerness wasn't intelligible. Everybody knew, but it's like the fact that it wasn't affirmed, it wasn't validated in the space. And even when the daughter made attempts to do so it was still rejected, all because of the mother's trying to hold on to the limitations to what she defines as right.
[00:39:09] And then they have a conversation about that in the movie about what is right. And then I think she goes into saying like, right it is- she basically explains the shit like it's a set of choices made by your confinement and some shit. So it's like.. Yeah, I think it's a movie that many people can relate to on multiple levels.
[00:39:32] Caullen: A part that stuck out to me with that conversation was- I think the first time the antagonist character... I forgot the name, confronted Evelyn- she mentioned, she's like, oh, you are an encapsulation of my daughter in all these universes, like, and you still like girls? And she's like, you're still stuck on that? Like, you're still concerned about that? Like, you just jumped universes in your fucking mind, through these Black-uncle-Bluetooth-headsets in your ears and you're worried about my queerness?! Like, what??
[00:40:02] Charles: That's so symbolic for so many people out here though. In terms of like, they seen some remarkable things happen, they've seen miracles happen, and you are still homophobic?? Like, you are still transphobic?? Like, you are still like... I just don't understand how you can exist in the world where so much possibility- and they make a point of this in the movie. They was like, look, we are on the fucking rock. Like, we are small. We are infinitesimal. And yet, you are having hang ups about someone's... like, who they fuck, how they identify. It's like, it's just, yeah...
[00:40:37] Mia: Well, you know, I think one of the things too- and not to go in a darker route, but I do feel like the film even touches on suicide.
[00:40:45] Charles: Facts.
[00:40:45] Mia: Because at the end, she was ready to end it all with her mom. And it was all because it's like, you don't see me, you don't hear me, you're just projecting all of your failure- what you conceive as your failures and everything, and it has created this break in our relationship. And I think it really speaks to the fact that a lot of parents, when they see something in their child that they disagree with, they internalize that as, Oh, that was my failure. Oh, that was me, or whatever. And they're so blocked by that that they- it doesn't allow them to just have the relationship.
[00:41:14] And in the end, she just needed acceptance. And she just needed love. And she just needed to know that her mom saw her for who she was. But Evelyn had to go and see the possibilities of what her life were and how she was exactly where she needed to be to finally, in this multiverse, or in this realm, have the relationship that she deserves to have with her daughter, regardless of all of those things. And I thought that was really, like... it was heavy.
[00:41:40] Charles: Yeah.
[00:41:41] Mia: And the film in general, I'm just... it does a lot, but the synthesis is on point, baby. Like, it's going to come together, and that's what I think was what makes it so great.
[00:41:53] Caullen: And that's not easy. I'm like, man, y'all going crazy with this script.
[00:41:56] David: Well, I mean, they did, like- so they, if I understand correctly, filming stopped right before COVID hit in 2020, early 2020. And so they were able to sit with it, just because everything closed for a little bit longer is from my understanding. But I think to the point, yeah, kudos to everyone. And then once again, to me, I think, filmmakers in our own right, I honestly think... I just think, and I've seen some interviews and shit, about the power of the creators. And of creating a set that I think mimicked its film. Like to me, it's like- and that's why I keep harping on that. I think it's just so, so dope. So, so dope. And so Ricardo, you said Latinos...something about, I'm already thinking about which Latino actors are going to be the ones to take that on. I was like, I don't know if anybody can, at least not yet. But I don't know. The film does do a lot, but I do think there was definitely careful detail in every move. And so I think we value that.
[00:42:57] Ricardo: Yeah, I think one of the things that I thought was super cool was like, and the ways in which this is a commercial film. It's very much structured like- it's very much structured like a commercial film. You could look at Save The Cat Beat Sheet, which is like, the formula.
[00:43:14] Caullen: Educate them!
[00:43:14] Ricardo: You know what I mean? Save The Cat Beat Sheet, it's this kind of a formulaic way of telling a story. And the film completely kind of- it completely follows that to a T in a lot of ways, while still being so fucking wild. And to me, that is the perfect metaphor of what it means to be queer; the way queer people have dealt with things, but also people of color and other marginalized people. Cause ultimately what they're doing is taking that Hollywood formula, this capitalist container for narrative, and then subverting it to do something else with it.
[00:43:49] It's exactly what Andy Warhol does when he draws a Coke bottle and puts a flower in it. Or Frank O'Hara, reads this poem about sharing a Coke with you, where a Coke is not just this dead commodity, it becomes this thing that he talks about sharing with his lover. And so for me, I feel like even that queer practice. Or my grandmother taking a fucking Folgers coffee pot and turning it into a flower pot. These ways in which we take these capitalist containers and then make them grow counter possibility and alternative possibility. And I thought that is whole, like, so evident in this film.
[00:44:26] Charles: Can we talk about the grandpa in the film?
[00:44:29] Caullen: Oh, let's talk about grandpa. Shout out boy, cause he was-... On our text thread leading up to this magical recording you mentioned Big Trouble in Little China, so I was like, That's homeboy from Big Trouble in Little China! Talk about absurdist films that have multiplicity, all these worlds, and it's weird, but it's fun, and it's deep. Big Trouble in Little China, shout out! So seeing him in that, and seeing homeboy from Indiana Jones, it's like, I'm... the film nerd in me that listeners know isn't as big as I want it to be, is coming out when I'm seeing these folks from different films decades ago that were also led the way of something like this.
[00:45:05] Ricardo: Well, what I love about it too is like, cause that's radical imagination, right? As activists that we're all here, we're always like, what's the radical imagination? And it's always about like looking forward at some shit, you know?
[00:45:16] Caullen: "We did this!"
[00:45:17] Ricardo: Yeah. And it's like these writers- radical imagination is also how you look backwards and uncover those stories that have been repressed and see how they can bear down in the present. So the way these Asian filmmakers kind of looked back, and then they basically created- dug back into the archive and brought these kind of heroes of Asian and Asian-American cinema, right, like: Michelle Yeoh, Lo Pan, like "Data", Shorty- and they brought them into the present. And that itself becomes this really interesting political act, and this counter narrative strategy. And you know, a different use of radical imagination, again, within the Hollywood system, commercial system, that I think is so fucking cool.
[00:45:58] Caullen: Yeah. I love like... Subverting the the tools and this thing that is presented to the masses, for our politics or whatever, I think about- I'm on instagram right now... 3chordpolitics, I've been following them. They put up fake billboards and stuff that has like, Sesame Street and it's like, "fuck the police". Shit like that. It's kind of easy and kitsch, but I like that shit. And like, I like seeing that translate into the work y'all do, the work we do, and also big huge films like this as well. I just think that shit's cool. And sometimes it's kind of corny, but I'm like, I just... sometimes absurd has to be in your face. I'm like, yeah. Love it.
[00:46:34] Mia: I mean, on the topic of subversion, I think... and you know, you think of it as this passive thing: the taxes, right? There's this big tension throughout the film of like, they got to get their taxes done, otherwise your business is going to shut down.
[00:46:44] David: Oh, no, they're getting audited. No, it's not just the taxes, they're getting audited. It's more stress.
[00:46:48] Mia: And what I love what that does is that, so oftentimes immigrants, any, working class people of color think that's the goal: entrepreneurship, business, or whatever. And they really just show you how much of a pain in the ass that shit is. It just really shows you, like, at the end of the day, is this mythical dream- or target that we're supposed to aspire to, really all that worth when you are in these... you know, going through it with bureaucrats that don't see you, that don't see your humanity, that you can't be present with your family, that you don't see your wife, that you're exhausted- and I think it really subverts that a little bit, which I also appreciate it.
[00:47:27] Ricardo: Well, it's also interesting, because now that- you saying that to me- adds a little, adds different and more gravity to that opening image that we see. Which is like that. Her scurrying around in that office that's filled with fucking, like, that desk is covered with papers, and then juxtaposed into it is that fantastic image of them in the mirror singing karaoke as a family. And how like, really what it's presenting is these juxtaposing possibilities and realities, precisely because of the reasons that you're talking about. I don't think that's... yeah.
[00:47:59] Charles: So... I mentioned grandpa.
[00:48:02] David: Mm! I was trying to bring us all back.
[00:48:04] Caullen: "y'all motherfuckers took me off course. I mentioned grandpa!"
[00:48:04] David: I was going to bring it back. I promise.
[00:48:07] Charles: Look. So there was a scene that was kind of small and quick that was so fucking powerful to me. In which they... so Evelyn, she finally got the consciousness of like, okay, my daughter's in multiple universes. So, she tapes her up.
[00:48:25] David: Yeah.
[00:48:26] Charles: And tapes her to the chair. And then grandpa all of a sudden, is conscious too. And is like, you gonna have to kill her. And then, I'm like, oh shit. Because to me, it was symbolic for many things. 1) it was like, here is the patriarchy; the embodiment, the physical embodiment of patriarchy.
[00:48:47] David: The problem.
[00:48:48] Charles: Exactly. Telling this cishet woman, you gonna have to kill your queer daughter, for like, liberation. And I'm like, whoaaa, this shit is taking me! But then I looked at it as him just being grandpa, and also being conscious. Cause he was part of this resistance, right?
[00:49:13] Caullen: Yeah!
[00:49:13] Charles: This resistance against the daughter into multiple universes- which is a commentary in and of itself. Right. But then, so he believes he's in the good fight. And he believes that what he's telling his daughter is the correct way to go about life in terms of eliminating this queerness, eliminating this weirdness, so it doesn't go into other universes and access other possibilities.
[00:49:39] So it's like, this old way of thinking and trying to contain the traditions, the ways of old and whatnot, explicitly telling the generation that you're going to have to kill your radical possibility, for us to survive our current reality. And I'm like, that shit was like.. And the scene is like, this small! But it hit me something serious. I'm like, damn, that's kind of deep, low key.
[00:50:06] Ricardo: But also then the way... the way at working on the other end, it is this thing about an aggrieved population. The person, the aggrieved individual of a marginal population, and how they react and respond. Cause- and I'm like, girl, yes, it is hard, but I ain't ready to take out multiple universes. *laughing* You know what I mean? But it's this way in which-
[00:50:33] David: She said you got a lot of work to do.
[00:50:36] Ricardo: But it's a way in which that type of- the way that festering can harness. And that we actually get- We were talking yesterday about on The Hoodoisie how Aimé Césaire says, "there's a Hitler in all of us". Like, and he's writing during like- he's a Black radical thinker, writing during the time of the anti-colonial revolutions in mid 20th century. But he's talking and writing at the time of World War II, and saying like, yeah, that kind of hate is embodied in all of us. And I think what I like about that was the ways in which so much of media right now is afraid to challenge activist logics or things like that. And the ways in which this was like, yeah, you still got to constructively harness your resentment. You know what I mean? You still gotta like-... I thought was also kind of interesting and a proposal that was embedded in there.
[00:51:30] Caullen: Like, this shit's in all of us, type shit.
[00:51:32] Ricardo: Yeah.
[00:51:32] Charles: And then, yeah, I think the most powerful part, and then is that, Evelyn said, no.. I'm going to love my daughter. Like...
[00:51:40] Caullen: My thing was- it was that, which that was revolutionary and transformative but also- it was like, I'm not gonna do that, no, but also, I'm gonna find a third way.
[00:51:48] Charles: Yeah.
[00:51:48] Caullen: And be as powerful as the actual antagonist being and figure it out. You know what I'm saying? So, there's like this old guard way of thinking. There's her just not doing that. Just like, I'm just going to see, figure it out. Then there's like, okay, both of these aren't going to work, I'm gonna find that third way. And that's where that queer logic comes into play, for me. Watching it and just figuring out like, it's never a binary. It's never one or two. It's always like, we can throw something else out.
[00:52:12] And I think about that, I mean, I think about that- I mean, thank you Charles for that, cause I'm thinking about so much stuff now. Trying to harness it for the sake of time. But just- not even just old ways that are problematic of thinking, but just.. When we think about like, my parents, my grandparents and survival and jobs they did and things they did... I think about, especially my relationship with my dad, he worked for State Farm for 35 years, corporate America for a minute, and had his stories of resistance in that structure, right? And then there's me, who is the embodiment of that meme of like, that Molotov cocktail, being like, "in your 30s", like, "fuck the police", hanging out- we'll link it in the episode notes.
[00:52:49] But, it's like.... I did the thing with college, right, which is normative, whatever. After that, started activists film entity and tried to figure things out in the way, and feeling good with where I am in my life now, but it's still hard and stressful whatever. And my dad often says to me like, hey, I wish I was an entrepreneur. I wish I could start my own thing. And he didn't say it in so many words but like, wasn't much of a choice when he was coming up. And he did the thing that was safe, and then was more accessible to provide for his wife and kid-on-the-way at the time. Where it's like, I didn't have those things, and he and his generation kind of led the way for me to be more radical, right?
[00:53:24] And so I think about that, as far as like, he didn't tell me to kill nobody, I'm not saying he's old boy, but thinking about the containers of previous generations and how those containers are so strong that that's how... that's what they're trying to carry on. And then appreciate my parents, and my dad especially for that; and knowing where he came from, knowing we worked in for decades, and then knowing what I'm doing and how he always fostered that and was appreciative of that. And also to the entrepreneur thing, he's like, yeah, you and your brother have your own business. I'm like, mother fucker, it's hard. *collective "mm"* I kind of wish I was working for State Farm, I could just clock out at five o'clock and be done.
[00:54:02] Charles: Right.
[00:54:02] Caullen: But also, you know, I don't wish that.
[00:54:04] Mia: A W-2 is nice.
[00:54:05] Caullen: But that's right! The pros of that, I kind of dig. So thinking about that, and just Black fathers in general, and knowing that my father's always shown love to me, which was normal for me growing up, and even now. But knowing it's not the same with other male, especially cishet friends, you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, you didn't- your dad doesn't give you a hug, says he loves you, kiss you on the cheek when you're 32? He doesn't do that? Oh, that's... he does to me. That's normal for me. So it's like, thinking about how even folks in that old guard are experiencing and changing, and learning, and then putting that on and making that normal for me, and for folks in our generation or my age, I think it's powerful. And watching films like this and other films similar to it remind me of that. And that's why pop culture and storytelling- good storytelling is important and transformative.
[00:54:53] David: Nah, see, I think to Charles's thing... Fuck grandpa. I think he got away too easily with all that shit. No, deadass!
[00:55:00] Caullen: David's saying, get the gulag out! Take grandpa that shit.
[00:55:03] David: Fuck this guy. Just like, no. And I do think it's interesting, Ricardo, I'm still sitting with your thought of like, media needs to do a better job speaking of, specifically Hollywood, to challenge activists ideas and ideologies, right? And we're talking about restorative justice. We're talking about like... movements, liberation, right? Black liberation specifically. But to me, I didn't see... I felt like grandpa got away the easiest with everything. Like, I don't know. He didn't... I saw the husband get challenged, with his idea of like, I'm gonna divorce you. No, I don't want to divorce you. And then the homegirl being like, it's your brother... this, that, the fifth. I saw the daughter being like, yo, you don't listen to me, motherfucker. And then she's like, well, I can't even listen to myself. And it's like, all right, cool, I hear that.
[00:55:46] But grandpa, bro- fuck grandpa. I don't know about y'all, but I felt like- and I get it, to the point where it's like... Charles, I think you brought a wonderful perspective to the grandpa figure. Cause now I'm like, all right, cool. You clearly gotta exist for everything else to exist, right? But other than that, I didn't see nothing else. I didn't see nothing else. And that ending- not the climax but when... at the end of the film- and so, spoilers, by the way. We usually say we're gonna be spoiling everything.
[00:56:14] Caullen: It's your fault if you haven't watched the film. Low key.
[00:56:18] David: But when she- and it's beautiful that it was just a conversation of telling her daughter. But then you even see how the daughter gets pissed off about what the mother thought was doing right in talking to the grandpa. And then the grandpa, we never hear back from his ass! So I'm like, I don't know. That's my two cents on grandpa. But... you know, I think, yeah.
[00:56:36] Ricardo: I'm thinking about the- there's two things I want to touch on. So the first was, I don't know... I feel like so much of the reality for the grandpa was that he was decrepit, right? And that there was a commentary in and of that.
[00:56:48] David: But he was good when he's like, I'm not gonna talk to you more if you marry him. He was good there.
[00:56:53] Ricardo: I would say my favorite thing, my favorite moment with the grandpa is this very split second moment. It is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen in a film. And it's when her half white, or half white, half Latina, ethnically ambiguous girlfriend is pushing him in his wheelchair throughout the laundromat and they're just both in joy. And like, it was one of the most like- I was like, what the fuck am I watching? And there's something about him being able to experience joy at that level that we don't see him experience at all in the film. And that's part of what he lost. Was the ability to be able to participate in that broader sense of family, that broader sense of joy, and that queer possibility. And we get this glimpse of it. And, you know, he's like, *laughing*, you know, and it's just such a fucking wild moment. I've rewound it like 50 times, just to watch that 18 seconds of the film, because it's just-.. But so I think there's- I wonder if there's some of that, too.
[00:57:54] But I think part of what the film does too, is also- I think Charles's read on that one moment is really interesting. But there's also a way of reading that moment as the grandfather IS actually one of the good guys, right? IS part of this resistance. And this is a runaway resentment that's a multiversal threat, right? But I'm saying that because I feel like what I love about the film is that all these people get to exist with a multiverse within them. You know what I mean? And so for him, he was a condition of possibility, not just for the bad in their lives, but also for some of the good in there- for some of the good in their lives. So I think there's- you know, I wonder if there's that angle.
[00:58:34] The other thing I was gonna say is- and I was like.. Because I think when I was thinking about it this time when you brought up the notion of binary, like, the binary notion.. I don't think it's always- binaries don't just exist in gender right? You know, as kind of like, a regime that's enforced. But they exist in this thing colonialism, where you had the colonized and the colonizer. And so I felt like there's these ways in which the film touches upon decolonial possibility as well. Precisely through the playing with narratives, and the fact that it's a surrealist film. And surrealism itself has a technique that anti-colonial thinkers and artists always kind of used, that is super fucking cool. Because there's a way in which it takes- like, even the fucking bagel, right?
[00:59:24] Charles: Everything on that bagel.
[00:59:26] David: Bring people in for those who don't know, about the bagel.
[00:59:28] Ricardo: Well, the bagel itself becomes this- it's at once the symbol for of everyday lifeness, you know, but on the other end the Jobu Tupaki, the aggrieved daughter, is kind of creating this hole that can suck up all the universes and it's modeled after a bagel. So like, their big bang theory ends in a bagel. But so that's... that's what that is.
[00:59:55] But I'm thinking about that cause I think that so much of decoloniality is about breaking those kinds of binaries. And so for someone like Evelyn, it's not about, do you go West or do you go East or accept any of those traditions? It is you find a third thing. And even for the daughter, generational healing, right? Cause it's not just a film about generational- trauma comes with reconciling and bridging some of those binaries, and then finding something other. Which I thought was kind of cool.
[01:00:20] But the bagel itself, to me, that even as an immigrant symbol, you know what I mean? Like a symbol of this mass marketed commodity that we all kind of endure; this notion of, right? There's all these ways in which I thought that that was kind of super fucking cool and fun.
[01:00:34] Charles: What do you think about... because I was also looking at the philosophical elements in this film. And I think it's a very anti-nihilist film.
[01:00:43] David: It starts off very nihilist. It started with the daughter being like, no, we shouldn't give a fuck about anything. And I was like, oh, okay, this is where we sit the entire day? So to your point, yes. Anti-nihilist.
[01:00:51] Charles: Yeah. So I just want to hear y'all takes about the daughter's nihilism. And what that means, especially when you think about that in terms of activism today. And young people today. And how fucked up the world is today. And like... I feel like there's a lot of sentiment of like, oh well, nothing's gonna change... climate change is gonna take us all out. What's the point of everything?
[01:01:16] Ricardo: I'm kinda sick of activists being like, and they're killing us. I'm like, not you bitch, you're still here. Like, you're still here. *laughing*
[01:01:21] Mia: No, I'm happy you're framing it that way. Because... I don't know. I think what I took from it-.. And so, I think about myself and when I fall under despair.. And I get to see really dope shit, like, I get to work with urban farms, and I see cooperative enterprises that are doing shit, land trusts.. I see the movement and all the positivity, and then I have those weeks where I'm just like, goddamn. You know what I mean?
[01:01:50] And I, and yeah. I mean, like, god, I'm blanking on who says this but, hope is a discipline. I think Mariame Kaba said that. It's a discipline to remain hopeful and not fall into that. And I think it's so interesting that it is love that disrupted the nihilism, right? It is being witnessed and something. And that's why when I have conversations with Ricky, and Ricky is like, no, let's talk about pop culture. Because it is- like, let's talk about how it is reinforcing these very basic notions that actually save us from that. You know what I mean? Which is like, how do you love? How do you see? How do you see yourself? How do you radically imagine yourself by seeing these images and depictions of you?
[01:02:31] And that end when she's just hugging her and is like, even though you're the problem, you can't go. None of us can go. We all gotta be here. We all... you know. And that's- I mean, to go back to the grandfather, I thought it was so dope- it reminded me a lot of like, my mom carried my grandmother everywhere. My grandmother had dementia and she was like, just.. But my mom was the type that took her elder everywhere. She was at the party. She was at the tax offices. My grandma was posted there. And it's a radical reminder of like, Yeah, these are our elders and they're deeply problematic, and cancelable, everything... but we have to do- you know, they can't go either.
[01:03:08] David: We can't just, yeah.
[01:03:09] Mia: You know.
[01:03:10] Charles: No gulags for grannies.
[01:03:11] Caullen: No gulags for grannies. I'm liking the gulag thread we've been starting to... kept going a little bit.
[01:03:21] Charles: Yeah. But yeah, I thought everything Mia said, I think that love is a core concept of the film. And that, yeah.. I was thinking, is this film telling us to subvert the nihilism of the youth maybe parents need to just be more kind and be more loving. And maybe that also speaks to our movements and activism, right? Because there was a lot of militancy in the film, I feel. But where is the room for, I guess, transforming those young nihilistic activists who see no hope in any possibility. Like, they're probably living in their own radical imagination, right? They...like.. She put herself in her own queer space. She traveling- she being her most full self she's ever been, but it's very isolating. And it's not with family. And she didn't even have a chosen family in the film. So it's very, it's very isolating.
[01:04:23] So I'm trying to think about like, how do we... or is this film telling us that we have to think more about subverting that nihilism that people are feeling today because there's so much traumatic and tragic shit going on? And is family the key to that? I know there's certain writers talking about abolish the family, you know what I'm saying? It's a real... real thing. So yeah, what is.. Where do we go from nihilism? And how do we handle that, especially with young people? Because I feel like more of it is going to come as the world gets more tragic.
[01:05:00] Ricardo: Well, also though, nihilism itself is rest upon the notion of, again, a linear notion and narrative of time. Where there's a beginning and then an end, right? But if you're like, you know, native- there's that one famous article that came out when people were talking about the end of the world and the climate collapse, stuff where it was like, oh, we saw the end of the world. Like, you know what I mean? And so I would say that they're... that part of what I love about the film is the way it has this radical insistence on possibility, and on hope even in the worst- even when you have been wronged so bad you know what I mean? And even when there's all this... this megaplex of taxes and shit like that, that there is always another way.
[01:05:48] And I think about that for- I'll never forget, I've been politicized since I was a kid. I went to Cuba with the Communist Party when I was 15. And my mom's a factory worker, she's been a factory worker most of my life, making menu strips for McDonald's that are on the menu boards. And I remember reading Communist Manifesto, thinking I understood it, maybe understood a good like, third of it when I was 14 and being like, girl, I just... you know, mom, I'm so sorry. She's like, for what? I was like, you are just working... you are an exploited wage laborer. She's like, I like my job. *laughing* And the stuff that she said what makes her like her job, she's like, it's us- and she worked with other Black and.. Black woman and immigrant woman. She's like, yeah, we fucking- we have fun. We joke back there. We- at lunch we all bring our little tupperwares, we share for each other. So that, even within this realm.. And it's a good check-in for those of us that have had opportunities. And when we've had those opportunities that our parents or our grandparents might have not had, and we get this knowledge, we can only see crisis. Whereas them who are actually living in crisis only saw opportunity. And had to mine it. And so for me, I think that that was fucking dope as hell with this film too.
[01:06:58] Because I am... I think one of the things about this season of The Hoodoisie, we're entitling it "Hope Apocalyptic" because we're saying, yeah, we're at the end of the world, but where is hope there? And the guests that we've had on like, Brett Cross, whose son was murdered- last night- who was murdered at Uvalde. And then next week, we have Debbie and Mike Africa, who were part of the MOVE 9 and spent decades of their lives in jail. They are so fucking hopeful. And not that they don't have rage, but they're so fucking hopeful. And I'm like, how the fuck are you all like this? And I don't even got this in me, you know?
[01:07:32] Caullen: I ain't even been in prison, but I'm mad! You know what I'm saying?
[01:07:35] Mia: I mean, I think- you remember the rock scene? The rock scene.. It was the best monologue of the film. And I think it's because you can see like, even as these objects in this.... just being rocks that exchange and that love is there. And I feel like that's really- they needed to do that scene to really isolate where the healing comes from.
[01:07:58] Ricardo: And I also just loved it too though because- because my thing is like, So, my favorite decolonial thinker is Ramón Grosfoguel. And he taught- this Puerto Rican dude- and he says this shit where he's like, There's no word for 'God' in Jesus's language. He was never actually saying- referencing some anthropomorphic personification deity. The word that he used was "Allaha". So, it was like, in everything and of everything. And so that divinity then is in, literally, in everything. And so he's like, and if you do that you can't just fucking chop down a force. You're chopping down God force. You can't just fucking, you know, treat-
[01:08:35] So for me.. And there's this book by this woman Jane Bennett called Vibrant Matter, that's all about objects as possibility. So when you see these two fucking rocks there, I was like, That's what these bitches was talking about!
[01:08:49] Caullen: I get it now!
[01:08:50] Ricardo: Cause you imbue them with light, they're imbued with life. And there's this way in which it took this non-hierarchical notion to understanding existence. You know what I mean? And then it literally removed the human from the scene, to act-.. That I think expanded even our notion, to help expand our notion of humanity, that I thought was really fucking cool.
[01:09:07] David: And play with it really cute with the googly eyes as the thread. But Caullen- Charles, one thing that I want to...
[01:09:14] Caullen: Daaaaamn!
[01:09:14] Charles: He's Black, I'm Black...
[01:09:16] David: *ahhh* He had to do that. I'm dead.
[01:09:17] Caullen: I had to. It was easy. It was low hanging fruit. I had to.
[01:09:21] David: That won't make the final cut. Nah.
[01:09:23] Caullen: I'm making it into cut.
[01:09:25] David: What I did want to touch on was, I think in your point of the way it challenges nihilism, sitting with that idea a little more- one of the things that I did see was a way in which it breaks stereotypes intentionally. And that's something that I see in line with your comment, because it was, for me, it's like, my boy and his fanny pack, for example. Fanny packs- now they're popular again for whatever. But here is the person who is stereotypically wearing it, to our point that we've mentioned- what type of character they were portraying, and here you are using it as a weapon to assault police officers.
[01:10:01] Caullen: Let's go! He went crazy. Fuck 12.
[01:10:03] David: That's just one example. So to me what it also- it showed that everything we have at our disposal can be used to our advantage. That's what I was seeing. Because- and I love thinking more and more on the concept of, We should just ditch nihilism as a concept, but it's a bitch. It's hard. *laughing*. But to the point of like, then when you start looking at everything that on our person, everything that is around us we can use to our advantage, or not, or whatever the decisions we're making.
[01:10:36] Because I also- it's just... The multiverse thing. One thing I want to touch on was like, what I really appreciated- to the point that you said that she had to see her whole potential to be like, yo, I'm cool with this one. Or maybe not so much that, more like, Hey, I got to fix this one because it's the only one I got. Because guess what? They're killing me off in all these other universes.
[01:10:57] Caullen: One thing I thought about, I don't know if this is exactly kicking off of what you're talking about, but I wanted to mention earlier with the band of capitalist analysis- it's like... it challenges, I think, in a really, really subtle way as far as like, Oh, you tried all these things, these hobbies, in-turn careers, like, you're a failure because of that. And it's like, no, we should be able to try shit and if it doesn't work out and still have a house, and a home, and be happy, and frolic and do all the things without having to be "successful" in all these things. Like, why can't we just have a life where we can do that? Not have to worry about like, oh, I'm going to have my livelihood upended by the state because I'm not making millions of dollars through whatever one of our hobbies was.
[01:11:32] So that idea of like, you have to always be- not even productive in a Marxist kind of way- but just always doing the thing and being successful in the thing in order to do it. It's like, you have a laundromat. People need to do their laundry. You have a laundromat. People are going to like,-
[01:11:44] Charles: Yeah.
[01:11:44] Caullen: Less than that should be enough, but that should be fine. Why does she have to exist in that? And I think people understand everyone has to live in that.
[01:11:50] Ricardo: But also the competing notions of success, right? Because what happens is in that pinnacle moment of that scene where Waymond gives her that, I'd be happy just giving love, and doing taxes and laundry with you, right?
[01:12:02] David: Love and laundry sounds fine to me too.
[01:12:03] Ricardo: Love and laundry, *laughing*
[01:12:03] Caullen: Love and Laundry!
[01:12:05] Ricardo: But the thing about that scene is really what is being headed off there is you have the most, one of the most successful version- THE most successful version of Waymond that we've seen in the film, and one of the most successful versions of Evelyn there; and that when they are confronting each other, his definition of success is not that. His definition of success was this other reality, and it allows her to know, oh, fuck, what I actually had in there was commitment. And there's something about the struggle and that type of stuff where it forces her to rework her mind.
[01:12:33] David: And that's exactly what I was trying to get at. Thank you for bringing it back, Ricardo.
[01:12:36] Ricardo: I felt it. I was like-
[01:12:38] David: Cause to me, the thing was like, fuck being able to see all of it. You feel what I'm saying? It's... deadass. It's truly- then realizing the moment. And I think what it does, it makes me sad cause I wish my peop- some of my specific people could see their whole perspective and challenge that. Not possible. So, it's like-
[01:13:00] Caullen: *whispers* Or is it.
[01:13:00] David: How do we bring that imagination to the forefront in these conversations? I tell my dad, Dad, just listen to Whiskey 'n Watching whenever you're bored. "But I don't get half of it". Well, then just ask me fucking questions. But I think that's a start, right? How do you engage, bring people into the medium? I think the film does that very successfully. And we're hoping that people continue to engage in that. Go ahead.
[01:13:21] Mia: No, I mean, just to your point, I think what you're pointing out in terms of the subtitles, like just the actual inaccessibility of the film- cause it is an amazing film that you want your immigrant parents to watch and dissect and digest and all of these things; and you can't because of these very technical things.
[01:13:35] We saw it recently, with the Bad Bunny performance, and they were saying non-legible in Spanish. No, these things are really messed up and violent. And actually- so, as a plug, I do know a student at Northwestern that's studying that. That's studying Spanish subtitles and that stuff. And language, and how it does create this hindrance for how art can truly be transformative to the communities that it's accessing. But you know, I love- thank you for going towards the romance of the film, because we have not talked about that. And it's beautiful.
[01:14:07] I think that's a really- Love is the biggest leap of faith, I think, one will take.
[01:14:12] Charles: Come on, bell hooks.
[01:14:13] Mia: You know, it's *laughing*. It's a leap of faith, you just don't know.
[01:14:19] David: Caullen just whipped out the book. He said I got it tabbed right here.
[01:14:23] Mia: I see the tab!
[01:14:24] Caullen: All About Love, yeah, let's look it up, hmmm...
[01:14:27] David: Page 123, if I understand.
[01:14:30] Mia: But I think in this current paradigm where we're talking so- there's all these, like, the gender wars online, and talking about like, What do you bring the table, and the commodities, and all these things... that is super revolutionary to say that- Look, these really intangible things are what matters regardless of what life you live. It is commitment, loyalty, being seen, being appreciated; and I'm sorry, but like, laundry and love. Laundry and taxes with someone you love, who sees you, who's never gonna go away no matter how mundane life gets, that is.. Yeah, I don't know.
[01:15:04] David: So we're closing out with Folding Clothes by J. Cole. I already named it right now.
[01:15:08] Caullen: Ayyy!
[01:15:08] Ricardo: Well, because I was thinking, I think the thing that I loved about the film was that romantic love was not its centerpiece. Do you know what I mean?
[01:15:15] Caullen: Let's go!!
[01:15:17] Ricardo: That love itself- that love got to exist within this spectrum and all these various iterations of it you know.
[01:15:23] David: Cause we haven't even talked to- one thing I wanted to just to talk about: the humanization of our tax auditor, right.
[01:15:29] Ricardo: Yes.
[01:15:29] David: Jamie Lee Curtis's character!
[01:15:30] Ricardo: The love of the stranger. You know what I mean? And that actually, in others possibly in other realms, they might be lovers. And we never view- I mean, we go into an elevator where...
[01:15:39] Mia: they were with the hot dog fingers.
[01:15:41] Ricardo: Yeah. With the hotdog fingers, they were lovers. Yeah.
[01:15:43] Caullen: "Hot dog fingers" with air quotes. I'm just playing. I'm being dumb. Don't listen to me.
[01:15:47] Ricardo: Oh, wow. I think there's some coded references in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:15:50] Caullen: I'm just saying!
[01:15:51] Ricardo: But even when you think about the way we ride elevators, we don't look at each other. Or even me and my husband, we're close as fuck to the door people of our building. You know what I mean? And I can tell when other people are coming in and out, they're like, the fuck is going on? Cause we're like, Hugging them; saying, I love you. You know what I mean?
[01:16:08] David: That's everybody.
[01:16:08] Ricardo: But I was like, yo, the thing is, we share space together in the ways in which you don't share- you don't acknowledge the people that you share a space with and that you're intimately. Like, this woman has access to the intimate details of their daily life, you know, through this thing called data. And that like- and that they kind of have this- that they end up being able to have this erotic... and I don't mean necessarily erotic like sexual, but there is this erotic kind of entanglement that we see played out. And then-
[01:16:36] David: the other worlds.
[01:16:37] Ricardo: And then solidarity, even, within the present one at the end.
[01:16:42] Caullen: Speak on that. What happened in the end that brought that solidarity?
[01:16:44] Ricardo: Well, just, you know, you see them kind of reconcile. And that they see that Deidre, who's the character that Jamie Lee Curtis plays, has kind of been going through some shit. And then Evelyn kind of recognizes it, and so what they recognize is the alienation that living in this world has brought both of them. And then, you know what I mean? And this type of wage labor. And so then they're able to allow each other to understand each other. And I think that's really cool. But I love- that to me was like, I think in terms of movie and novelty.
[01:17:12] Cause Mia is a Virgo. So earth signs love the classic, you know what I mean? But as an Aquarian, I'm this niche weird thing that no one else gives a shit about. *laughing* That's where my attention is.
[01:17:26] Mia: Didn't they smoke a joint at the end?
[01:17:29] Ricardo: Yes.
[01:17:29] Mia: I love that.
[01:17:31] Charles: Yeah. This is about to take a dark turn.
[01:17:35] David: Take it. We already took one.
[01:17:36] Caullen: Charles taking a dark turn? We talked about suicide earlier.
[01:17:38] Charles: Yeah, that's exactly what we're going to talk about. But it's the fact that like, yeah, what's not lost on me is that the mother saves the daughter from suicide right? And her saviorship, or her saving their daughter, is informed by the politics of romantic love. She saw her husband and he has his politics of, "I navigate my life through positivity. Seeing the bright side of things, being hopeful."
[01:18:06] Ricardo: That's some reductive ass shit. That's some reductive ass-
[01:18:08] Charles: That's what he said though!
[01:18:10] David: We can't give everything to Hollywood. We can't give them everything.
[01:18:13] Charles: Is that not a direct quote? Is that not a direct quote?
[01:18:15] Ricardo: He's like, he's just a half glass, half full motherfucker. That's all.
[01:18:18] Charles: But I believe in it. I believe in it. But he sees- he tries to see the loving aspect and tries to be kind, right? And I think even the simplicity of that is revolutionary. And the fact that that transforms her, and enables her to be able to save her daughter from suicide. Meaning that like, what, if she didn't have those politics, what would happen? You know I'm saying? If she didn't embody love, and practice kindness with her own daughter, what would happen? And we already know that answer because we see a reality; how parents and children's, and their interactions, and children going through depression and mental health problems.
[01:19:02] Mia: I just think it's a trip that they had to give us this crazy ass film to really fundamentally internalize these concepts. Which is like, hurt people hurt people. And love is regenerative.
[01:19:13] David: Welcome to Whiskey 'n Watching, if it's your first time.
[01:19:17] Ricardo: But I think one of the things I also want to touch on is that the fact that Daniel Kwan, who was one of the Daniels, that so many people that were neuro-divergent saw the film and they were like, Oh fuck, this is what it's like- you're the first person to capture my brain on screen. Like, that's what it means to be- have ADHD. And then how he, himself- one of the things that happened, they started researching this as a kind of a possibility, like would this be offensive? This is going on. And then as he was reading it, he was like, Oh shit, I think I'm undiagnosed ADHD. And then found out he did. And so like, how one of their approaches to the characterization of Evelyn, Michelle Yeoh's character, is that it's an undiagnosed- an adult with undiagnosed ADHD. And so that's part of what the- there's a parallel, a metaphor there. Which to me is interesting, because I would never have caught that... until I was reading about it.
[01:20:10] But it's also similar to how Lilly Wachowski, many people- trans people who are watching Matrix were like, Oh shit, is this an allegory about being trans? Yeah, you know what I mean? And then- and so how it exists on these levels. And so for me, I love when movies have gifs. And when movies are flexible. Because so oftentimes, when we talk about colonization, it meant about giving like a master narrative or like, you know what I mean? That we're all supposed to kind of-
[01:20:36] Caullen: This is the analysis, take it.
[01:20:39] Ricardo: And I think that when you think about Black women ethics of care, and women of color feminism, like Gloria Anzaldúa, and all of them.. Or even just- it's about the multiplicity of difference, and the embrace of difference, and the way we can get different things depending on our vantage point and how that's a strength. And so this film, I think, really also encapsulated that; where you have these different things that you can pull from it depending on who you are. I was like... Mia talking about that immigrant experience, I would've never even thought about it in that same train. I know what it is conceptually, I'm like, Oh yeah, that's what this is about. But how the specificity that you were able to speak to it, it was really beautiful and not something that I saw with it.
[01:21:21] Caullen: You read the Atlantic article about it, so you figured you understood it.
[01:21:24] Ricardo: I was like, oh, faggotry, faggotry, faggotry.
[01:21:26] Caullen: I know my lane! *laughing*
[01:21:29] Ricardo: But no, I love that though cause it is about if you could think it, it's possible. You know what I mean?
[01:21:35] Caullen: Yeah! What I love about the rock thing, I wanted to mention this earlier, is that all the shit y'all said, yes, go crazy, plus one... beautiful. The font they used to have them talk to, it was like a low quality meme. But we see those every day! And I'm like, Oh, that's real, I saw that on Twitter yesterday. Why would you use a sans serif, that's weird, but also, I see that. The design logic doesn't dictate to use what they use, but it made sense in a way in which I see every day on the internet. You know what I'm saying? So I was like, even that, I'm sure it was intentional, if not, y'all sure did the part.
[01:22:06] David: I mean, just speaking onto design, and I know I mentioned the eye, right? And so I'm curious if y'all interpreted it differently than I did. Because at first we see Evelyn going around being like, why the fuck- these eyes everywhere, type shit. And my man's over here just being like, it's cool, what are you talking about? It's cute. I don't know. It's fucking, my office. And at the end we see her use it- once again, going back to all these tools are at their disposal- she puts it as a third eye. I saw it literally third eye, type shit. So here I am fully focused, fully conscious, fully facing what is in front of me. And then, I don't know... I saw that as the definition for the eye. But I don't know if there was anything specific or anything else like that that y'all saw.
[01:22:48] Charles: So, I would say that... and this is thinking about movements and activism of course, that a lot of movements, they don't embrace the whimsical. And I think the eye is symbolic for just being whimsical. It's funny. It's goofy.
[01:23:06] David: Googly eyes.
[01:23:07] Charles: It's whatever, right? And I think when we- and I think that is- being whimsical, and being funny, and goofy, and comedic, and just trying to put a smile and laugh on people's faces... that is something we don't really think about when it comes to revolution. When it comes to upending totalitarianism.
[01:23:25] David: Or beating someone's ass.
[01:23:25] Charles: You know what I'm saying? Of course we're going to need, you know, I believe fullheartedly, of course, we're going to need violence. We're going to need it to be thrown down. But how do we recruit? How do we get people? How do we express love or this regenerative love that Mia was talking about and recruit people into whatever cadre movement, or even just a possibility, or even just to get in the room and learn? Sometimes I think we have to embrace the outside possibility, and some of that is just being whimsical.
[01:23:56] Ricardo: I... what I, I mean, yes to everything Charles is saying. But I also think that what's so- but I also think, yes, everything that Charles is saying. But I also think, building on top of that, is the notion of play. And approaching life wih this sense of play that we don't really do. Not just even within activism, but wholeheartedly. And so it's weird, we talk about what are the erotics of living? And so there's this way in which him putting those googly eyes, it's whimsical, right, and it's also this way of him flirting with reality, right? It's him teasing reality. It's him teasing life. And I think that that to me is so fucking cool.
[01:24:33] And so I think even when you think about the film, I think about what I've learned so much from, in my life as a creative person, from acting. And one of the things I always think about is rehearsal. And I'll never forget- And also then when you're performing in a theater play, how you're doing the same shit over and over and over and over.
[01:24:52] David: How do you give it new meaning every time you do it?
[01:24:54] Ricardo: Yeah! And this one thing that this one per- one of the things that I had a teacher tell me was like, it's not about getting it the same way every time, it's about experiencing it for the first time every time. And that idea of, again, how do you discover, rediscover, and discover life- that eternal return? Also that idea of flirting with life. And play. And that joy of being fucking alive. Like, to see this and like.. I feel like Shawn embodies so much of that. Like, you know what I mean?
[01:25:27] Charles: I think it's also a little element of mischief, too.
[01:25:30] Ricardo: Yeah.
[01:25:30] Charles: Because he's putting these googly eyes on all the patrons, folded clothes bags.
[01:25:35] David: Yeah.
[01:25:36] Charles: And he knows that fucks with her, you know what I'm saying? So it's like a playfully teasing, and like, I'm being mischievous. It's like, yeah. I fuck with it.
[01:25:45] Caullen: Mischief is for the revolution.
[01:25:46] Mia: I feel dragged because I'm always not making time for the whimsical. And like, that we have to be here or whatever. But I think that's like- Especially with this new generation. Where it's like there has to be some level of real joy, and real... I guess fun? And not just the militancy.
[01:26:05] Ricardo: I'm just laughing because Mia's like, this new generation- and she just, she went from millennial to tía real fucking quick. *laughing*. I was like, Oh shit. I've never heard her say that.
[01:26:16] Charles: She the grandpa! *laughing*.
[01:26:19] Ricardo: But I'm also laughing cause our- I was thinking about our zoom meetings for The Hoodoisie, and Mia comes like, we've needed someone like this for years- just so on top of her shit. But I'm over here making faces on the zoom, playing with the icon..
[01:26:36] Charles: The whimsical.
[01:26:37] Caullen: Zoom chat is my throne.
[01:26:39] Charles: Okay. You need a hard stop at like, three.
[01:26:44] David: You got somewhere to be, you know what I'm saying?
[01:26:47] Charles: You know, we got to make room for both.
[01:26:48] David: And we see it. Nah, I don't know. And as always, with a lot of these B'nB conversations, we can definitely continue going. But we really appreciate y'all taking the time to hang out with us. I think, even just in this conversation I'm really excited to go back and watch the film again, to be honest. I think it definitely deserves that and all. And I think, I love how Caullen names the fact that it won awards and stuff like that, because you gotta show love to things that deserve it.
[01:27:19] And this film is clearly one of those films that definitely deserve it. Now, does Jamie Lee Curtis deserve to take it over Angela Bassett? That's another podcast episode.
[01:27:28] Ricardo: Yes.
[01:27:29] David: You know what I'm saying? He said, yes! He said, yes! Okay. Okay. We're not going to start a fight here on B'nB today, okay.
[01:27:36] Charles: We don't respond to ignorance.
[01:27:38] David: But I would love- what I would love to do is give y'all an opportunity to let some of our listeners know how they can catch The Hoodoisie, anything that y'all got going on. This will probably be released a couple weeks from when we're recording, so be mindful of that. Anything you- any shout outs y'all want to give to the peoples? Please go ahead and take it.
[01:27:58] Mia: No, thanks for the opportunity to share more. So we are doing bi-weekly live shows throughout Chicago. Our show travels Chicago. So we have shows happening. The next ones are gonna be May 20th with Debbie and Mike Africa. June 3rd, we're bringing labor organizer Chris Smalls. We'll be at the CTU Foundation for that one. June 17th, Bianca Graulau and Camille Dalmau of 9 Millones, which is a radical journalist effort in Puerto Rico. And a surprise show on July 1st. And so there's still four more episodes, come catch us. Follow us @the_hoodoisie on Instagram, on Twitter [@hoodoisie]. And yeah. We're really excited to just continue this Hope Apocalyptic discussion that's really, both discussing the crises of our time, but how people are taking action and building power to realize different alternatives. So, yeah.
[01:28:53] David: Love it. Thank you. Fellas, any last words for the peoples?
[01:28:55] Charles: Yeah, follow us on all the social medias. Come to a Hoodoisie show. You will have a time of your life. You will get all of our great voices and great analysis there. You will drink, you will party, you will have fun. And yes, it's free. So just come to one of these shows. Again, follow us on all socials. Follow Ricky at, what, the Scarlet?
[01:29:18] Ricardo: Faguette. [@the_scarlet_faguette]
[01:29:19] Caullen: He said..
[01:29:20] Charles: I can't say it. *laughing* Follow Mia @dessimia__ on Instagram. Follow me at... it's just my name [@charlesapreston].
[01:29:32] Caullen: I'm just going there somewhere, right?
[01:29:34] Charles: Yeah. And shout out to Bourbon 'n BrownTown.
[01:29:37] Caullen: It's your second time. We didn't say that earlier. This is Charles's second appearance. He's one of the OGs.
[01:29:41] Charles: Yeah, OG episode.
[01:29:43] David: He was on episode nine.
[01:29:44] Charles: Yeah, I was with them when they were in the field. You know what I'm saying?
[01:29:47] Caullen: Now we in the house!
[01:29:48] Charles: Like, in the.... yeah, out the gutter. I saw him get out the mud, so.
[01:29:54] David: Ricardo, anything?
[01:29:55] Ricardo: You guys could use this or not, but just the- if you can't make it to a The Hoodoisie show, check out on our social media platforms, and you can request a Never Normal Again anthology. This is a publication we put together that combines think pieces from activists, artists, change makers from across the city of Chicago. Some of the most radical people that we got that have been guests on the show and then came back to actually address the pandemic. So at a time when people were saying we can't wait to get back to normal, acknowledging that that normal was structured on violence, and so how we should never go back to normal again.
[01:30:30] And so you have Janie Pochel from Chi-Nations Youth Council talking about how Native people have survived epidemics before, and what does a Native First Future look like? Rachel Havrelock from The Freshwater Lab talking about how we can actually use this crisis to rethink our relationship to water. And then: Amara Enyia, Brian, Byron Sigcho-Lopez, Benji Hart, it's cool as hell. We also have a mix tape. When the pandemic hit we knew a lot of the musical guests that were coming onto our show, and that have been a feature of our show, were gonna be in some dire straits. And so we took a grant and offered every one of them a stipend to give us a song, and we made a mix tape out of that. And so that's also available by donation. Everything goes back to Hoodoisie programming.
[01:31:15] And we have coming on the horizon a graphic novel about the history of Latinos and policing. And a book on arts activism. So, those will be coming up.
[01:31:27] Caullen: So y'all ain't got nothing going on.
[01:31:29] Charles: Nothing going on at all.
[01:31:30] David: You ain't doing shit. But we'll definitely try to link up all details in the episode notes. So definitely, feel free to check that out. soapboxpo.com/podcast. You'll find every and all detail here for episode 92. And so, for the future of Whisky 'n Watching, y'all have to stay tuned to see what happens.
[01:31:50] Caullen: If you have a suggestion on things we should watch, y'all should hit us up @bourbonnbrowntown on all the socials. On Twitter, no O's in Browntown [@bourbonnbrwntwn], but you know... There's not a lot of engagement in the Bourbon 'n BrownTown socials. SoapboxPO got some engagements. Bourbon 'n BrownTown, not so much. So hit us up. We out here! DMs are open.
[01:32:07] David: Yeah, maybe you'll catch us at one of The Hoodoisie events, as it goes. And maybe you'll catch The Hoodoisie back on Bourbon 'n BrownTown. But as always stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer
[01:32:17] Caullen: stay tuned,
[01:32:17] David: stay turnt.
[01:32:18] And we'll see you next time.
OUTRO
(“Foldin Clothes” by J.Cole)