BrownTown chops it up about electoral politics, the remap process post-2020 Census, borders and anti-Zionism, and much more with repeat guest Stephanie Skora, movement worker and creator of the popular "Girl, I Guess" Progressive Voter Guide. The gang again takes on the nuances of engaging in electoralism while holding radical politics and the importance international solidarity between colonized peoples. Originally recorded May 16, 2022, before the new Chicago ward map was approved.
BrownTown chops it up about electoral politics, the remap process post-2020 Census, borders and anti-Zionism, and much more with repeat guest (Ep. 60) Stephanie Skora, movement worker and creator of the popular "Girl, I Guess" Progressive Voter Guide. The gang again takes on the nuances of engaging in electoralism while holding radical politics and the importance international solidarity between colonized peoples. Originally recorded May 16, 2022, before the new Chicago ward map was approved.
Spring 2022 marks two years since the most recent Census where the new representational map of our political reality has changed to, so we’re told, better reflect our lived populations. It has also been one year after renewed worldwide attention on the Israeli occupation, specifically in the Palestenian neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah. How do we place the remap process within the broader system of American electoralism, for better or worse? More broadly, how do we conceptualize not only the invisible lines of representational democracy based on population in America but also the more militarily enforced borders that manufacture our economic and political reality to justify the state’s existence, globally? This is their take.
GUEST
Stephanie Skora is a hard femme Lesbian, trans woman, and anti-Zionist working class Ashkenazi Jew whose activist work centers around Palestinian solidarity organizing, queering Jewish spaces, and fighting for justice and liberation for all trans people. She is the COO of Brave Space Alliance, the South Side LGBTQ Center, the Board President of the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity, a longtime member of Jewish Voice for Peace, and the author and editor of the "Girl, I Guess" Progressive Voter Guide. Check out Stephanie's site and follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
Mentioned in episode and more information:
Opinions on this episode only reflect David, Caullen, and Stephanie as individuals, not their organizations or places of work.
CREDITS: Intro music from I Was a Teenage Anarchist by Against Me! and outro music Payback by Immortal Technique ft. Diabolic and Ras Kass. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles.
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Ep. 80 - Remapping, Electoralism, & Challenging the Border Myth ft. Stephanie Skora
BrownTown chops it up about electoral politics, the remap process post-2020 Census, borders and anti-Zionism, and much more with repeat guest Stephanie Skora, movement worker and creator of the popular "Girl, I Guess" Progressive Voter Guide. The gang again takes on the nuances of engaging in electoralism while holding radical politics and the importance of international solidarity between colonized peoples. Originally recorded May 16, 2022, before the new Chicago ward map was approved.
INTRO OVER MUSIC
(music credits) Intro music from I Was a Teenage Anarchist by Against Me!
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:00:58] David: And I wanna welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. I am your cohost, David.
Ready to bring you this hot one. As always with my boy, Caullen, bro how you doing today? How you feeling?
[00:01:29] Caullen: Hot one, coming day heavy! I'm doing okay. I got to see you in person today, which was a treat. I have some peach wine with me that I got at Aldi cause why not? So we're having, we're doing some new things today.
Shout out to peach wine. We're doing some new things today. I'm feeling good, feeling blessed. How are you doing?
[00:01:50] David: Feeling good, slow ass fucking Monday, you know, we'll take it. I think sometimes it's always a balance of the oversheering panic of anxiety of like, dog, you should be doing shit right now. Not watching, the fucking Suns get swept. Fucking killed by the Mavs. No, you shouldn't be doing that. Go send out emails and shit, but you know it was a good Monday. We got the hangout and I'm actually, you know, I was outside. I was like, should I wear shorts, no shorts. So when it's that kind of weather, I like a iced ice drink.
So I made myself like a little, agave margarita, you know?
[00:02:25] Caullen: Oooooh, okay! Out here, out here
[00:02:28] David: trying to have some, I'm trying to enjoy some. And I don't know, I'm definitely very excited. This is a little bit of an earlier recording too. So it's like, I think we're more like I have shit to do after this when usually, usually I don't. But it's absolutely fantastic. And we're so excited for you to be here with us. Bringing in episode 80, featuring Stephanie Skora, bro. And I know y'all probably have seen her, but if you've not, Caullen, tell the homies who she is.
[00:02:52] Caullen: For y'all that do not know, and you should, Stephanie Skora is a hard femme lesbian, trans woman, and anti-Zionist working class Ashkenazi Jew, whose activist work centers around Palestinian solidarity organizing, queering Jewish spaces, and fighting for justice and liberation for all trans people.
She is a COO of Brave Space Alliance, the South Side LGBTQ Center, the Board President of the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity, a longtime member of Jewish Voice for Peace, and the author and editor of the "Girl, I Guess" progressive voter guide. Stephanie, what is goody?
[00:03:29] Stephanie: Heyyy, thanks so much for having me back, y'all. I guess I just have to come on every 20 episodes now. This is a thing.
[00:03:35] Caullen: I was thinking that same thing. I was like, this has been 20 episodes even, oh, great. So, okay. 100. So that's gonna be a milestone for us, so we gotta have you, I guess. I think it's in the bylaws now at this point
[00:03:45] Stephanie: I'll be more than happy to come back. Hopefully, you know, maybe we'll be in the middle of yet another election.
[00:03:52] Caullen: Most likely
[00:03:53] Stephanie: over/under 3.5 civil rights that we'll have lost between now and then.
[00:03:57] Caullen: Exactly.
(laughter)
[00:03:58] Caullen: I'mma go, I'mma go, I'm gonna go under. I mean, betting legal now, you can bet all the things. I'mma go under.
[00:04:06] Stephanie: We're gonna get a casino in Chicago. So betting's extra legal.
[00:04:10] Caullen: Extra legal- well, not extra legal, but "extra" space "legal".
[00:04:15] Stephanie: Thanks Lori.
[00:04:18] David: oh my goodness. But, Stephanie, for folks who are a little bit still unfamiliar do you wanna tell folks a little bit more about us and then how we come into the "Girl, I Guess" voter guide 2022 and all the thing that that entails.
[00:04:35] Stephanie: Yeah! So you know, "Girl, I Guess", is a progressive voter guide written for progressives and those of us left of that orientation. My friend Ellen Mayer, and I started it in 2018. We sort of came together being nerds and Jews and queer people and politics junkies, and we sat down one day and we said, Hey, you know, what would happen if all these friends that we have who are so committed to revolution and so committed to fighting for justice But also super hate elections because they think it's not radical enough- what if we did their work for them and just found some way for them to engage in making their voices heard and getting their vote to count while not feeling like they had to invest their time and energy into supporting electoralism. And so the voter guide was born during the 2018 general election.
We started calling it "Girl, I Guess", as sort of an homage to the Black Twitter inspired, "girl, I guess I'll vote for her" with Hillary Clinton in 2016. And it took off. The original plan was actually to change the title every time, but then after 2018 we were like, ah shit, we have a brand now, okay.
So it stayed "Girl, I Guess". And you know, people really enjoy it, I guess. It's a voter guide that attempts to bring a mix of public education and political discourse like you would talk about politics on the sidewalk or over a beer. It's not taking politicians too seriously.
It's not being overly respectful of elected officials. If somebody is a fuck face, "Girl, I Guess" is gonna call them a fuck face. If somebody hasn't done shit for their community, "Girl, I Guess" is gonna say that they haven't done shit for their community. And it's the same things that you would say about people running for office or people who hold elected office if you were walking down the street complaining about how much you hate city council. Because the point of "Girl, I Guess", is not only to do that sort of left-leaning and explicitly left public education around candidates running for office and the voting process, but it's to explicitly meet people where they're at with discourse about politics that's familiar to people and not just some glossy mailer that you get sent by the democratic party two weeks before the election.
[00:06:55] Caullen: exactly. I love the name "Girl, I Guess". I think- I was familiar that it- where it came from initially, but I think it encapsulates everything you just said. It's the attitude towards it, like, I guess- like you're gonna do it, but you're not enthused.
And it just unravels all of those things. So I'm glad y'all didn't change it. You listened to the people, unlike many of our electeds. And I'm just excited to have you on here again, to dive into the guide again, as we did two years ago, but in a different way.
There was a census two years ago that if y'all haven't checked out, soapboxpo.com/census-2020. So I'd love to hear, I guess from your vantage point, they've heard us, Soapbox, talk about it in some kind of way, like, what is the census? Why do we do it? And what is that? What changes after the census is done? How do we use this information?
[00:07:46] Stephanie: The census is this decennial thing, it's actually mandated by the constitution of the United States, where essentially the government attempts to count every single person living in the country. Determine where they live, figure out some basic demographic information and blah, blah, blah. And it's super, super, super important.
Not only because it happens once every 10 years, but because the census is how the federal government and a lot of the state governments determine how basically every level of government resource is allocated. By population, by demographic, by income, by all sorts of things, the census is the official government population counter.
And for those who are trying very, very hard to forget, I'm gonna remind you, we had a kind of moldy orange peel as president in January of 2020. And the census was conducted under president Donald Trump who, as we all know is a fascist asshole. And he tried his very, very best from the beginning to just fuck up the census entirely.
He excluded questions on sexuality and gender. He tried to make it a tool by which the government would track down undocumented people. There was all this bullshit that the Trump administration pulled around the census and that resulted in- and that combined with the COVID-19 pandemic resulted in a really, really funky census. A really, really funky census.
Some people estimate that there was an extremely significant undercount, especially of marginalized people in the census, especially, especially immigrants and undocumented people who had a very, very real reason to be afraid that if they put all their shit on the census, the government would come knocking at their door and deport them. Whether or not they had a legal right to be in the country or not.
And either way fuck borders, people get to stay wherever they wanna stay. So the census for elections determines something- it triggers a process called redistricting, which is exactly what it says it is. It's state legislatures at every level in every state get together and they redraw the maps for their state House and state Senate and their congressional district and everything on down.
So the county board has new maps, the city council now maybe has a new map. And Illinois had such an undercount, we allegedly lost population and we lost enough population that we actually lost a congressional seat. So, whereas in 2020, there were 18 congressional districts in the state of Illinois, now Illinois only has 17 congressional districts. And for folks paying attention, that's actually how Illinois gets electoral votes- is it's one electoral vote per member of Congress. So your congressional delegation plus 2 for the Senate. So we're now only gonna be worth 19 electoral votes instead of 20 that we were before.
But the remapping process has been bat shit. Completely bat shit. And that is because of the census. And the census data got delayed by COVID, it got delayed by government incompetence. And it set off this cascade of events, this chain reaction that resulted in the reliable early March democratic primary in Illinois being bumped to June 28th.
And that's where we're finding ourselves now, right in the thick of that mess.
[00:11:25] Caullen: Oof. So everything's been topsy turvy,
[00:11:29] Stephanie: little bit
[00:11:29] Caullen: to say the least the last couple years. Before we move to what that remap actually looks like and that process- cause I have not been involved as I'd like to, as far as far as how that's involved with Chicago specifically in wards and stuff, only things here and there.
I'm curious, David, since you headed the project with Soapbox making the 2020 census and Stephanie spoke too a little bit about folks who are marginalized, especially immigrants and folks who are here living who don't wanna talk to the government for a variety of reasons, but especially not to get deported and things like that.
That was one of the intentions and the focuses of what Soapbox is, as far as that project. Obviously we had the podcast as well on it. Episode 49. So I'm just curious, David, what can you add to that as far as that legitimate fear? And obviously backing up to the whole conversation as far as how we're talking about voting or not voting, how it's something we should do, but also knowing it's all fucked in the first place, that paradox/ contention at the same time. How do we wrestle with that?
[00:12:32] David: No, yeah, definitely. And I think there were so many things influencing us up into that moment.
Stephanie, when we had done our episode it was about the general elections and stuff, but there was a long- strong undertone of just voting as a tool, in our toolbox. And so to me, when we're seeing what's happening in 2019, Trump's been on fuck-shit the entire time, I thought it was a wonderful opportunity for Soapbox to be able to work with organizations like ICIR, Illinois Coalition for Immigrants and Refugee Rights. And then, OCAD. So groups who have constituents directly affected by that type of shit talk about it.
And I think it was empowering, I'm curious to look a little bit more of like, we always, as a media company, talk about what is our true impact, was it- how many views we got? Is it doing personal outreach of how many of my undocumented folks actually went in and submitted a census? To which, I don't know, I can give my own experience, and I really appreciated having the access of this video being in English and in Spanish. And I sent it to as many motherfuckers, as I knew, I was like, go do it. And, you know, people were like, nah, whatever- no, but like, literally go do it. And I hope, and I feel like that was at least a sort of like, all right, cool this is what's happening. These are people like, oh, I recognize this organization, I recognize this group, oh, this is what they're saying? Copy. Because also ICE- this was also part of a larger campaign that plenty of groups, not only Latino immigrants, but other immigrant groups were kind of focusing on.
It's unfortunate to hear that there was so few numbers kind of pushed in. But, Stephanie, as you put that together, it completely ties together. And I remember a big thing was looking to label things that were sent in the mail as not real. And then that bled into the elections.
They literally bled- that same type of tool was used for election fraud and shit. So I was like, yep. I don't know. But yeah, it was unfortunate, but I do think it kind of helped reinvigorate communities to speak out about it in ways that they always have been, but with a specific focus.
Cause it only comes 1 time every 10 years. And so I think there's a different type of strategy when organizing your people around something like that.
[00:14:48] Caullen: It's like, you can't miss the boat. Ain't no midterms. You gotta wait another decade until this shit happens again
[00:14:54] David: to count you and yours. And we talk a lot about that in our 60 episode about misinformation and the use of lies. Straight lies.
[00:15:04] Caullen: Lies
[00:15:05] David: when we're talking about the tax- the tax- the-
[00:15:07] Caullen: oh, the Fair Tax
[00:15:10] David: Fair Tax,
[00:15:11] Stephanie: R.I.P.
[00:15:12] David: Which, deadass- but I don't know, it just leaves me feeling like that. But only more reinvigorated cause here we are in 2022. And so, to our point in that episode was like, oh, fuck the general elections. Okay, fuck Joe Biden- we're still on fuck Joe Biden. But
[00:15:27] Stephanie: yes,
[00:15:27] David: these judges, right?
[00:15:28] Caullen: David, did you say, "let's go Brandon", is that what you said David?
[00:15:31] David: Yeah
[00:15:32] Caullen: which is like, yes, but no-
[00:15:34] David: Is that what that is? The other day I saw a bumper sticker, bro. It says, "don't blame me, I voted for Trump." And next to it was a "don't tread on me" snake thing. And then-
[00:15:41] Caullen: of course it was,
[00:15:42] David: it was like a Marine Corps like,
[00:15:44] Stephanie: oof,
[00:15:44] Caullen: we get it, bro. We get it. Jesus...
[00:15:47] David: some of these don't make sense. The military is the- I don't understand. I wanted to pull over and talk to him, but you know,
[00:15:56] Stephanie: He who treads upon himself
[00:15:59] David: I'm so- and so bleeding this into where we're at with the census, the remapping, some of the things that we were looking at- or that I was seeing was at the city council, was it? Or no?
[00:16:10] Stephanie: Oh God. Yeah.
[00:16:11] David: Where there was a- yeah, it was the city council reached an agreement to change the wards around. And that's always been funky. To my understanding, Englewood was broken up in 4 different wards??
[00:16:21] Caullen: Four or five, yeah
[00:16:22] David: there's shit like that going on all around. And I don't know if Stephanie, if you could help us talk through any of this information, but how is- what has really happened in that? If you know anything.
[00:16:34] Stephanie: Yeah, no, it's completely wild. And so we do have maybe a new city map. We'll know by the time this episode comes out whether or not we have a new city map. But as we're recording right now- so the deadline is Thursday for them to decide on the map or not. If they can pass the new map before 5:00 PM on Thursday, then it's a map. If they can't pass the map by 5:00 PM on Thursday, then it goes to a referendum of the voters. And then I have to pick the map, basically.
[00:17:03] Caullen: it's all up to you.
[00:17:04] Stephanie: And I really don't wanna- who- I'm gonna assume that the city council has their shit together enough to muster 41 votes to get a map.
[00:17:12] Caullen: Have you been here? How long you been here?
[00:17:16] Stephanie: About a week ago I was convinced that there was gonna be a referendum. And then apparently some shit happened behind the scenes, a bunch of progressive alderpeople flipped sides basically, and went with the map that had more people behind it.
So the rule in city council is you need to have 41 alderpeople back a map in order to get- in order to pass it. And there were essentially two different maps. There was the Black caucus map. And then what's effectively- they're not calling it the Latino caucus map, but it's essentially the Latino caucus map.
And the Black caucus map had something like 33 people behind it, maybe a couple more, I don't remember the exact numbers. And the Latino caucus had fewer than that. And there were some alders that didn't pick a map. And there was some- I heard United Working Families was involved or something, and maybe CTU. But there were some people who essentially convinced a lot of the progressive alderpeople to say, back the Black caucus map, we can't have it go to a referendum. And so people signed on and we may now have a new map. There was a hearing on Friday. There's apparently a vote today, I haven't heard how the vote went or not. So we'll see. But the new map- really again, and it goes back to the census- so the big contention between the two maps was how many Latino wards there were gonna be. Latino majority wards.
And I think both maps had the same number of majority Black wards. One map had- the Latino caucus map had 1 more Latino ward than the Black caucus map. And the Latino caucus was saying, the Latino population in the city has grown massively over the last 10 years, we deserve equal and proportional representation in city council, we need more wards. And the Black caucus was saying basically, fuck y'all, no.
[00:19:18] David: In short
[00:19:20] Stephanie: yeah, I mean, there were alderpeople out there saying, this would be a slap in the face to the Black community- which like... not my business. Not my business,
[00:19:32] Caullen: Good ally. Good ally
[00:19:34] Stephanie: But so there may be a map now. The map is slightly different than the proposal submitted by the Black caucus. It's like a compromise map. And there's some funky shit in there. But essentially it keeps the number of majority Black and majority Latino wards that the Black caucus proposed. So fewer majority Latino wards than Black wards.
We also get our first majority Asian ward, which is gonna be the new 11th ward. So it's cutting Patrick Daley Thompson, who is in jail now, I think. He got replaced with a Lori Lightfoot appointee,
[00:20:15] Caullen: Nicole Lee.
[00:20:16] Stephanie: Yeah, Nicole Lee. And she was the first Asian woman on city council. I think the first East Asian person on city council.
Because we had Ameya Pawar as the first Asian alderperson, in general. And the new ward is gonna be centered on Chinatown. It's like 50.05% Asian. And
[00:20:41] Caullen: wow. 50.05%.
[00:20:44] Stephanie: Yeah. It is-
[00:20:46] Caullen: juuuust over
[00:20:47] Stephanie: barely an Asian majority ward. And they cut Chinatown out of the 25th ward, which I believe it was previously in to get that ward- Chinatown and some of the surrounding area.
And that's gonna be really fascinating because I don't know whether Nicole Lee will be able to hold the seat. By the time that the election rolls around she'll have only had it for about a year and she's a political appointee of an unpopular mayor. So there's gonna be probably a shit ton of people who run for that seat.
[00:21:19] Caullen: And her father had a Daley connection as well. And didn't some stuff happen with her father too? So again- I'm not blaming her for her father's actions, but politically that doesn't help.
[00:21:27] Stephanie: She's got machine connections very, very far back in her family. There was some other shady shit that happened in there.
Which- I got some questions for Andre Vasquez about why he was okay with his ward looking like this, but-
[00:21:38] Caullen: ah, yeah,
[00:21:39] Stephanie: I'mma text him about this cause I need to ask him like, dude, what's up? But the 40th ward- so Andre Vasquez former battle rapper, current dad, and incumbent 40th ward alderman. His- so the 40th ward is like this chunk of the Northwest side, a lot of it's Andersonville and around that area, and Deb Silverstein who I'm just referring to as Deb Silverstein, shande far di goyim. Which is Yiddish for "embarrassment in front of the goys".
[00:22:17] Caullen: Thank you for explaining that to me. I appreciate it more now. I was like, I know it's funny. I know it's a zinger, but I just, I don't get it.
[00:22:24] Stephanie: Jewish shame, Deb Silverstein has this really awesome guy who announced his candidacy- from recording, a couple weeks ago, named Mueze Bawany and he's with United Working Families, he's a CTU organizer, he's a really cool sounding dude. And he lives right smack in the middle of the 50th ward- until some sort of deal got cut. I don't know what's going on here. This is why I have to ask Andre, bro, what's the deal? Because the 40th ward has its normal boundaries and then it goes, boop boop boop chunks out the exact area of the 50th ward where not only Mueze Bawany lives, but the person who ran against Deb Silverstein for 50th ward committee person lives. And it's like in the center of the ward, the part of the ward where if you were gonna move there to run for office, you would say I'm never getting redistricted out. And it just chunks that out.
[00:23:22] Caullen: It's just like a donut.
[00:23:24] Stephanie: No, it's just a box.
[00:23:25] David: It's like a, like an L. I'm looking at the map right now and it's like, kinda comes in and then, woop, here, we're gonna take this little spot right here too.
[00:23:32] Stephanie: yeah, it just- it's amazing.
[00:23:35] Caullen: Thank you for all those specifics. Yeah, I appreciate all that, all that information. And I feel like if you're listening to this and you're not from Chicago, or not very verse in, I don't know, city politics, but when you measure- Chicago's the third largest city in the United States.
It's huge. It's long. It's the city of neighborhoods. Not that, you know, New York is its own kind of beast, and LA is a fucking big suburb, but Chicago is like, neighborhoods is what makes Chicago. And so what's interesting is you look at the 77 community areas, which is uniquely Chicago neighborhoods, which can be smaller than those and mainly broken up, but just kind of, it was based out of UChicago, so from years and years and years ago- people really stayed true to those neighborhood names and stuff for the most part. And the ward map of 50 ward seats is on top of that and is a different kind of map. And so when we talk about Chinatown not really having one person represent it prior to this year, this cycle, what have you- talking about Englewood having 4 or 5 people representing this area, and other places like that, specifically places that are not a majority white neighborhoods. The representation isn't there in city council for an entire neighborhood. So if you're listening to this, and you're not familiar with Chicago, this is all super important for how Chicago talks about itself to itself and the rest of the country, and the rest of the world.
So I wanna layer that context on on top of all this as well. And being a transplant, I've been here for 12 years now, but just learning all these things and learning about Chicago in high school and then machine politic, what is that? Getting into it and I'm like, oh, THAT'S machine politics.
And seeing it play out is always fascinating to me. So I appreciate all the details far as what's happening now with the census and how that's changing things and how representation is playing out, but also how we know representation isn't gonna set us free to say the least. David, you can't move to Chinatown or you're gonna fuck everything up.
It's gonna be less than 50%. You gotta stay away.
[00:25:27] David: And it's crazy though, cause we also started this conversation being like, that we had an underwhelming reporting of the people who actually live there. So it's like, I don't know, it's a domino effect
[00:25:41] Stephanie: It's a mess. And the Englewood point, too, is so wild because there's the residents of Englewood continually complain that their whole community is just fucked up by not having any political representation. Jeanette Taylor, who's a total badass and one of my favorite alderpeople- really, really amazing person- represents, I think the majority of Englewood, but it is split into 4 different wards.
And I think it was alderman Rod Sawyer, Rodrick Sawyer said, well, Englewood can't have one Alder person because the community has too many problems and one alderperson couldn't solve them all. So they'd never be able to get reelected.
[00:26:17] Caullen: ohhhh, what??
[00:26:19] Stephanie: I was like, he, like you said that out loud, dude. Like even if it wasn't Rod Sawyer, like somebody on city council said that, like you said that out loud?! What the hell!
[00:26:31] Caullen: Like why- not why it's so hard, but I just feel like if she had independent commission she should just do it. But obviously what is independent, and who gets on that commission? I don't know. I just feel like it shouldn't be this hard.
[00:26:42] Stephanie: Well, it, and it really shouldn't be. And I think the big problem obviously is gerrymandering or creating- cheating, as you can call it. And you know, I've I actually-
[00:26:53] Caullen: you just call it reimagining redistricting, it's reimagining
[00:26:57] Stephanie: and we'll have a diversity and equity committee and we'll have a, a vice chancellor and make it a university. And you know, no, it's- so the law requires each district to have as close to the same number of people living in it as possible. And that's really where it gets weird is you get all these like horrendous shapes, like for the last city council map- or the last Congressional map for the state of Illinois had what was called, the Latino earmuffs, which was Chewy Garcia's district.
And it was like that sideways earmuff-shaped district that just bonks together Cicero and Little Village and Humboldt Park and connects them by like a block.
[00:27:40] Caullen: If you're not from Chicago, those are not next to each other.
[00:27:44] Stephanie: no, they're not next to each other. They're like, half a city away from each other.
[00:27:47] David: There's a highway separating them.
[00:27:48] Stephanie: Yeah. And it's like chunk, and then little tiny line, little tiny line, little tiny line, little- chunk. And they cut the earmuffs in half this year to create a new majority Latino district, which is the 3rd district, which it's gonna have a congressional representative, that new district for the first time.
But it's really wild. There should be. Sensible ways to do this. And there are fair ways to- it's easy to create an independent redistricting committee. And a lot of states do have that. But even if an independent redistricting committee happens, the fucked up nature of representation in politics in the United States means that in some instances gerrymandering can actually be- it's bad for the people who live in the state, but because we live in a country that makes a political system essentially where there are two teams and one wins and one loses, Republicans control completely the redistricting process in so many states that the team that I guess none of us are on, but the team that we have to root for by default; so the Democrats have- they need states like Illinois so that they can cheat back the other way and knock Republican seats out and have as many Democrats in Congress as possible. And it winds up with really, really weird implications for the people that live there, and even further on down than that. cause like, fuck the federal government, it doesn't really do anything except for kill people and not help.
But the state legislative maps get redrawn, the county legislative maps get redrawn, the city ward map- which we were just talking about- gets redrawn. And it really makes a huge difference in how many- like in the city, the quality of your alderperson and the responsiveness of your alderperson impacts stuff like how quickly potholes get filled on your street and how often your trash gets picked up; like quality of life things that really matter to people who live in a huge city. And now people are playing with their community's ability to live in a coherent unit, to have a better chance at getting reelected. And that's just, like just do a better job at representing the people that elected you and you wouldn't have to cheat. But people don't wanna represent the people that elected them. They wanna represent themselves. So they essentially draw other people's voters out of their districts to stay in power. And it's really fucked up because Deb Silverstein, for example, might not get reelected next year when the municipal election happens.
But the people that she moved out of her ward are right in the heart of her community, and now they have different political representation and different neighborhood services than people who they've always shared a political boundary with for their entire lives.
[00:30:49] Caullen: It's almost like you're describing a representative republic and not a participatory democracy or something.
[00:30:54] Stephanie: Maybe! Yeah, that'd be really weird though, wouldn't it?
[00:30:56] Caullen: Something like that, something like that. I think you illustrated a great point as far as just, I don't even know, yeah like do better at your job and we'll be- you'll be fine. But so much of this is based on- and just the fact that whatever team of the two win, they both do the same thing.
And I watch Flannery Fired Up- local Fox, he's awful, but he talks about this same shit with people who are doing the things. It's really interesting watching it, even from his standpoint- and he's a terrible interviewer- but either way, he talks to the people who are doing this shit.
And so it's interesting watching him and just watching that show every week and seeing Republicans on their state reps from all over Illinois being like, oh, the Democrats are cheating mahhmah- I'm like, they probably are low key, but also so will y'all, so will you guys, there's no- it is whoever's in power is gonna cheat to do this. And the normative- I don't wanna say traditional- the normative political logic is like, yeah, do that so you can stay in power. But it's like, just be good to people and do your job. But also we're basing this- this is the crux of the episode- we're basing this all on like, you have to do your job well or cheat or whatever you're doing it's still based on a representative model of "democracy", which that's, that's not my definition of democracy. I feel like it may not be y'all's either. And so it's like, what are we doing?
This one person is representing the wants and the needs of all the other people, which is- this hasn't worked so far, and I feel like it's not gonna start working this next cycle.
[00:32:34] Stephanie: Certainly not. And that's the thing- and the Democrats are absolutely cheating in Illinois. They're super cheating. But the Republicans are cheating in so many other states. And I talked with Ben Joravsky from the Chicago Reader about this and he and I have a really similar perspective on gerrymandering which is, it's bad and it should never happen, but as long as one side is doing it, we have to be okay with the other side doing it. Because if one side is gonna cheat, the other side either has to lose on purpose or also cheat.
And I would rather the Democrats cheat than have a permanent fascist majority in Congress. Even though the alternative is sometimes a fascist majority in Congress, and sometimes a bunch of like old white people to stick up their ass majority in Congress. And like a couple of diverse, neat people who don't have any power.
[00:33:24] Caullen: Who can make house resolutions that don't go anywhere.
[00:33:27] Stephanie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who can like, have a 5 person resolution to recognize ####, which will only get 5 votes and everybody else is like, antisemite, and that's the- and that's in Congress. It's really this awful- this devil's bargain because especially as leftists, as people who are for justice and liberation 24/7, there's this real strong urge to say, eh fuck it, it's not for us, it's not by us, it does us no good. Why should we participate in it? And I really understand that. And at the same time, we have to acknowledge, especially as leftists, we live in a white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalistic state. We live in a place where the government is gonna do what it wants to support the rich and put its boot even further down on the neck of every marginalized person. And no, voting is never gonna liberate us. We're not gonna vote our way to liberation. An election is not gonna be the difference between ending capitalism and continuing this fucked up system. And at the same time, it's a tool in the toolbox. And it's a tool in the toolbox especially for local elections, especially for state level elections.
The United States is hurdling towards this 1990s, post-Soviet dissolution, where the country is- the country is falling apart. There's no way to salvage the mess that is the United States. It's very, very clearly falling apart. States are passing laws criminalizing people who live in other states for stuff that isn't illegal in that state. It's a disaster. And what that means is that the laws of the state that we live in are incredibly important. I have a long distance partner who lives in Indiana and I go and visit her every three weeks, and when I cross the border I lose like 90% of my human rights. And she is Black and queer and gender fluid and does not really have any human rights where she lives.
And then when she comes and visits me she gets a lot more rights the second she goes over into Danville. And it's not to say that that's a good thing- that's obviously a terrible thing- but we have to make sure that the right people are getting elected in the state, and in the county, and in the city that we live in so that the conditions for revolution are facilitated. Not created, because we're not gonna- nobody in Springfield and nobody in the Loop is gonna be like, oh yeah you elected me into public office, here's the molotov cocktail, the key to the mayor's office, go do your thing. But it's gonna make it suck less to be alive.
And revolution is easier to sustain when you can live long enough to be part of it. And that's really my thing, is like, look, if you're only voting you're not really doing anything, you're not doing anywhere near enough. You have to go to the polls, hit the streets, spit on a cop, do the whole nine yards.
And it is a tool in the revolutionary toolbox, not to create the world that we wanna live in, but to make- to put all the pieces of the puzzle together in order to create that world. Because there's all these hot takes about how voting is an act of colonialism, and no true leftist can participate in electoralism.
And like, I get it. I really, really, really do. And there's a lot of validity to those points. And at the same time the election happens whether or not you believe it's legitimate. The people make laws whether or not you think that they deserve to represent you. It matters who the mayor is. It matters who's on city council. And it doesn't really matter what your principled opposition to voting is as long as we still live in a society that privileges the power of elected officials over the working masses, because we need to create a society that does better than that. But until we live in that society, your vote still counts. And your vote still has the ability to impact the conditions in which you live in this city, or in this county, or in this state. I mean, we have a lot of really great examples just from the 2019 municipal election to keep it on Chicago. We have a socialist alderperson, a Brown queer woman, Rossana Rodriguez.
[00:38:07] Caullen: Shout out! That's my girl!
[00:38:08] Stephanie: I love Rossana. I love Rossana deeply as a person and as an elected official. And she was elected by 19 votes over this horrible piece of shit legacy alderperson who didn't do anything for anybody since like 2003. And those 19 people made the difference. And on the flip side, we've got professional disgrace to the social-work community James Cappleman over in the 46th ward being an asshole and a terrible person. And he got reelected by 25 votes. These things really, especially the more micro you get, it comes down to the wire. And it really- if you live in Uptown right now- especially if you're poor, or working class, or housing insecure- you want anybody besides James Cappleman to be your alderman. And it really, really matters because the alderman is the one who calls the cops to conduct sweeps and destroy camps of homeless people. And if somebody besides him was in office, that might not be happening.
[00:39:17] Caullen: Bars! Bars, right there. If y'all listening, rewind, let's listen to that again, son. I told 'em before we started recording I've been watching a lot of battle rap and battle- Meek Mill on Funk Flex.
So I feel like I'm like a DJ right now. Stephanie Skora! 2022! Girl, I guess voter guide, let's go! We'll cop that! A fake echo and everything. No, but seriously, that was great. And I love hearing you talk about voting. You thread that needle perfectly, so I appreciate all of that, and as well as the details and the context for Chicago and the last election as well.
[00:39:53] Stephanie: Thank you. Yeah, and that's the thing is like, I don't believe in this shit either. I'm a fucking anarchist. I don't believe that the state is legitimate. I think that we need to burn all this shit down and start again. And also every form of leftism utilizes representational politics and voting in some way- like anarchists are- we have jokes about anarchists in our committees. Who do you think chairs the committee? They rotate, but who gets to pick who goes first? There's a lot of voting. There's a lot of procedure. There's a lot of these same systems that we understand and know how to use, and use very intentionally ourselves as leftists.
It's just that the way that they're being deployed in a neoliberal fascist state, like the United States, isn't serving us. And your vote doesn't mean that it's okay that Joe Biden kills people. Your vote means that you recognize that this is the society that you live in, and you can fight to build a better world at the same time that you can weigh in on the conditions of the one that you're living in right now.
[00:40:54] Caullen: I've heard the statement that you're choosing your opponent, essentially. And it's like, if I'm choosing my opponent, I wanna choose Urkel, not Mike Tyson.
[00:41:03] Stephanie: Exactly.
[00:41:03] Caullen: You know what I mean?
[00:41:05] Stephanie: Exactly. And that's exactly- that's precisely the point is, you get to have some sort of say in who you're organizing against. The material conditions of the country and on the micro level, they're gonna remain the same no matter who the president is, no matter who the mayor is, but I'd rather- I would rather try and overthrow Joe Biden than Donald Trump. cause I think Joe Biden's less likely to call the proud boys on me.
[00:41:34] Caullen: That's fair. That's facts.
[00:41:36] David: Let's sit with that for a moment. Yeah, no, and I think one thing that really sat with me was like, if you can't vote for yourself vote for those who can't. We've oftentimes on Bourbon 'n BrownTown we talked of the powers of America as a colonial enterprise, and having access to territories and spaces where people don't get to vote, they don't get to say shit about how America works and operates within their territories or their space. But it's doing it for that. And then we also talked about- things that I jump to is folks who are incarcerated. Here in Illinois there is a giant push and change for that type of stuff.
But to your point, Republicans- there's 50 states. 50 little countries, so to speak, and each of them kind of work and operate in their own fashion. So shout out to our homies in Indiana. But that's why I don't live in Indiana. But also there's some people who are stuck there. I don't know, ugh. There's just- it's a tunnel. And I don't want to go down that right now, but-
(laughter)
[00:42:40] David: I'm out of margarita
[00:42:46] Stephanie: It's a shitty tunnel. And that's another really excellent point is there's a ton of people in this country and in land controlled by this country who don't have the ability to vote in a meaningful way. Whether that's because they live in a place like Guam or Puerto Rico that's a territory, or whether because they're undocumented or afraid to go vote. They may want to use their voice to be a part of the representation of politics that we have, and they can't do that. So if you're somebody out there listening to this episode and you're like, ah I'm not gonna vote, fuck these people, fuck the United States, I'm not gonna- blah, blah, blah, whatever Instagram hot take you bought into, go and ask somebody who can't vote if they wish they could vote and if they say yes, just give them your ballot and let them fill it out and you go and deliver it. That's a more radical act than trying to come up with some gotcha-argument for a person who wants to wait 3 hours in line to fill out a piece of paper. That doesn't help anything, that just creates more division among groups that are trying to fight for a better world.
Go and give somebody who's disenfranchised a voice if you don't wanna fucking use yours. That's one of the basic principles of solidarity. And I think a lot of people need to relearn that before they get all high and mighty about like, oh voting sucks. Like yeah, this country is a terrible, terrible place. And it does terrible, terrible things on a regular basis and also- pass the mic.
[00:44:23] David: And that's why things like the "Girl, I Guess" voter guide is so useful. Because to folks like Caullen and myself and folks listening, hopefully, we're very much in line with things that are being presented. However, I think it's so important and so crucial of this collaboration that you purposely do. Which, you shout out Injustice Watch and you have shouted them out.
And I think what I was trying to get at was, earlier I think I saw you with Maya from Injustice Watch and how it's still this line of like, Hey I'm not representing Injustice Watch right now, but due to the research of Injustice Watch, I can talk about this sort of ju- and so it's kind of funky. And I don't wanna take this down the nonprofit bipartisan bullshit, but I think the voter guide allows folks to be able to engage in something in ways that I don't think they always had. I know I've shared it with my family members, and at first they were like, wait is this real? Yeah! It's literally- it's a thing, and it's research of research.
It's like, ohhh. So it's, it kind of gives people an opportunity. And I'm sure you've heard multiple types of feedback on how it has helped them or how folks have used it here in Chicago. And sometimes it leads me to think, what else is out there like the voter guide to help influence, and educate, and propel narrative shifts? I think it's so funny that you were like, fuck JB Pritzker, but still- girl, I guess we're gonna choose him. And that's kind of where we are right now, again.
[00:45:54] Stephanie: And he's doing a pretty good job.
[00:45:56] Caullen: He ain't doing bad.
[00:45:58] Stephanie: He's not in jail. I'll take that.
[00:46:00] David: He's not a Blagojevich either
[00:46:02] Caullen: That's the bar for Illinois. Just, don't go to jail and you can be whatever you want to be. Choose, choose your position.
[00:46:08] Stephanie: Don't go to jail, and don't lose to the republican.
[00:46:10] Caullen: Speaking of hot takes, this is related and kind of not really at the same time, I just remember- so last year this month, May 2021 neighborhood in Palestine, Sheikh Jarrah, was in the news more than usual for Israeli aggression in what is Palestine. And I feel like it was a- I wouldn't say it was a different moment, but I feel like there was so much energy, internationally, and in the US, which is where we live, about what was happening there from various sides. Obviously folks that we know and folks that are for liberation of Palestine were out in the streets and doing the work as they always were more so, and I was seeing a lot of social- on my social media and what have you. But I was also seeing a lot from folks who are not "Free Palestine" and folks that I just- I don't wanna say know personally really well, but just people I know in the world were kind of saying things, and they you know, the Zionist were Zionists, but folks who were like, Hey people don't know much about this thing, and they're saying all this stuff about it, and that feels icky, and I don't know. So I issued a movement that I've been, I don't wanna say a part of in a real real grounded way, but shout out to the homies in solidarity with folks. Had a lot of conversations I wasn't expecting to have about it.
And I was surprised and folks were like, Hey I know you post about fuck 12, but you don't have the wherewithal, the knowledge to post, to talk about this. And I was like, well that's where you're wrong. And so I had a lot of interesting conversations about it that I just didn't see coming, and so I'm curious, Stephanie, being in Palestinian liberation and having your experience and having it in your work, particularly what last May was like for you? And then I wanna zoom out and talk about what borders, and imperialism, and histories do to us as far as these conversations.
[00:48:09] Stephanie: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's really interesting cause last May obviously- and continuously when you're talking about Palestine. Last May was bad, this May is bad. As we're recording this Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was just murdered by the Israeli military.
They attacked the pallbearers carrying her coffin at her funeral. I think that was yesterday or the day before. The naked, cruel brutality of Zionism and of the Israeli state is really just on full display right now. It's full mask off. And, I think there's a couple of things in there.
1) obviously I experienced this a lot differently than one of my Palestinian siblings who- I have a stake in this, but this is their life. And no matter how I believe that the Jewish people globally have been negatively impacted by the existence of Zionism, by the existence of the Israeli state, that pales in comparison to the stakes of Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed, who are experiencing apartheid and genocide, who are being killed on a daily basis by Zionist troops and fascist settlers who are stealing their land.
There's another viral video that went out, of literally settlers in the West Bank being bused in with mattresses and furniture and shit, and just dashing around a corner to occupy a Palestinian house in the West Bank while the people who lived there were at Shireen Abu Akleh's funeral.
And they literally bus people in to steal the house. Like 30, 40 people who just ran in there. And they were like, this is our house now. And that's just literally what happens. Yeah. It's squatting, but with machine guns.
[00:50:03] David: Backed by a militarized force.
[00:50:07] Stephanie: Yeah, it's government enforced settler squat- I mean, that's what settler colonialism is, is it's government enforced squatting with guns. And it's fucked up. And I think there's- I'll let y'all have the deeper parts of the Palestinian conversation with a Palestinian person. But I think on the one hand there is this really really deep need for all people who care about justice and liberation to rise in solidarity with Palestinians. And name not only is Zionism is racism, and not only is Israel an apartheid state, but the Palestinians deserve the right to self-determination and liberation, no matter how that looks like.
And you get a lot of hemming and hawing, and collar pulling about like, oh well what happens to the Israelis? Do they get displaced? We shouldn't displace Jews. And honestly, 1) I come down on the side of, first of all, anti-Zionism is not antisemitism, it's not antisemitic to say that Israel is an apartheid state. It is. It's not antisemitic to say that Israel is white supremacist and racist. It is. It's not antisemitic to say all these things about Israel are true and that Israel is doing all these things, because they are true and it is doing all these things. But, you know, there's, it's just so deeply, deeply fucked up.
And I think the stakes for Jewish people, in particular, for Palestinian liberation, we spend so much time worrying about our own people and our own continuity and our own liberation. And those are real. We have more than 5,800 years of history, and most of that time was people trying to kill us or kick us out of places. Fucking half of Jewish holidays basically have the theme of, they tried to kill us, but they didn't, let's celebrate!
[00:51:59] David: But we survived.
[00:52:00] Stephanie: Yeah, and this is deeply epigenetic trauma for the last, nearly 6,000 years of generation, after generation, after generation, after millennia, after millennia of Jews have this shit baked so deep into our DNA. It's in there with frogs and shit, is this trauma. It's right next to the part that says that we don't have webbed fingers.
And it's- the existence of the Israeli state dishonors that entire history of Jews being part of the global masses of people who are put upon and oppressed by others. We threw away our claim to righteousness on the backs of settler colonialism and Zionism. We put our own safety and momentary comfort ahead of the humanity of other people, and ahead of the humanity of other Jews, because there were Jews living in Palestine for thousands and thousands of years.
And I think it's deeply, deeply important that every Jewish person recognizes on a granular level, just how much support of the Israeli state pervades every part of our communities. You cannot do anything in mainstream Jewish life without Israel being tied into it somehow. Whether it's praying for the safety of Israel in a synagogue, whether it's donating money to a Jewish charity and finding out that they support Zionism or work with an Israeli NGO, or have backing from the Israeli government. Or for the bigger charities, finding out that they give money directly to settlements, directly to genocidal organizations, directly to the Israeli government.
So there's this thing that I talk about that really blows people away, is that it's super expensive to be Jewish in the United States. Everything about being a religious Jewish person, who's culturally engaged in your community, is extremely expensive. If you want to belong to a synagogue you have to pay a yearly membership fee.
We're not talking like 25 bucks here. It's like $2,000 in some cases to just belong to the synagogue, to get tickets to the High Holiday services- which costs extra money. And all the religious regalia costs money unless you've had it passed down to you. All the- it's sending your children to Jewish day school or Jewish summer camp, or getting them a Jewish education, teaching them Hebrew, teaching them Yiddish costs a lot of money.
And this means- there's all these stereotypes, these really really deeply antisemitic stereotypes about Jewish people as white wealthy hoarders of resources. And there's supposedly data to back it up. These surveys that Jewish communities do of themselves, show people being very wealthy, people being overwhelmingly white.
And the reason for that is that these wealth barriers to access are excluding Black and Brown Jews, are excluding Indigenous Jews, excluding immigrant Jews, Jews from other countries, poor and working class Jews- to say nothing of anti-Zionist Jews, queer and trans Jews. And it's deeply fucked up because the Jewish community in the United States has everything that we need to make Jewish religion, culture, history, every mystical and cultural and historical tradition of the Jewish people 100% free to access and participate in for every single person who wants to do it and do it in good faith. The problem is the resources that we need to make those things free and accessible to every Jew and every person who wants to become a Jew or learn about Judaism, the money and the resources and the time that our community could use to make sure that we do not lose, even a tiny piece of our culture or history, is being packed up and sent over to Israel.
Billions upon billions upon billions of dollars every year are sent from the Jewish community to the Israeli state to ensure that the Israeli economy continues functioning to continue funding Israeli NGOs, to everything, everything. And it's from- and the organizations run the gamut from literal fascist settler organizations that exist to kill Palestinians and steal their property and their land to the Israeli version of the Red Cross, and wildlife organizations and stuff.
And obviously those things are all caught up in Zionism as well, but it's so important for Jewish people- regardless of what your views on Palestine are- to wake up and realize how deeply Zionism is pervading Judaism in the diaspora. And how it's stealing from our communities to prop up a failed fascist state that does not give a fuck about us.
Israelis do not care about Jews in other countries. They say so themselves. When the Tree of Life shooting happened in 2018 the Israeli ambassador to the United States basically said, well this wouldn't have happened if you live here. And like, holy fucking shit, that that dude said that. When the most deadly antisemitic attack in US history happened in 2018, this dude who's supposed to represent the "Jewish state" came to the second most populous Jewish country, and basically said, ah sucks to suck, you really should have moved, you should've lived here with us. And people didn't bat an eye, kept on supporting Israel, kept on giving them money.
And I really- I'm not- like, obviously yes, I'm asking Jewish people to be anti-Zionist. I'm asking people to be in support of Palestinian liberation, to support BDS, to practice BDS. Cause BDS isn't just a tactic, it's a lifestyle. But if you can't bring yourself to do this for the humanity of other people, fucking do it for us.
This shit is destroying us. Zionism was not meant to save us, it was an ideology come up- it was invented by a secular dude who wanted to run away from antisemitism in Europe because he thought Jews were too weak to fight it. And that's in his original writings. Theodore Herzl's original writings basically say, Jews are too weak to overcome this, we have to run away. That is not who we are as a people, but it's what Israel is as a state. Is it's cowardace packaged with bombs and machine guns.
[00:58:55] David: Who is funded by America.
[00:58:56] Stephanie: yeah, and it's funded by America. And it's funded by America in our name. This shit is done in the name of every Jew in the United States. And it is our responsibility to stand up and say, no more, you cannot continue funding genocide and apartheid in the name of people who know what it feels like to experience genocide, recently. And this is our moral and cultural and religious obligation to oppose this shit. And to stand with Palestinians and do whatever they ask us to do to facilitate their liberation.
Somebody asked me recently, oh well what happens to the Israelis? What happens to the settlers? Do they have to leave? Do they get kicked out? Do they get displaced? And first of all, 1) that's for Palestinians to figure out, we don't get to decide that. You don't get to break into somebody's house, threaten to shoot them, take over 90% of the house and say, well we have to meet in the middle and figure out where I get to stay.
They have to leave the house. 2) If you are somebody who bought into a settler colonial project- who, in some cases, literally lives in somebody else's house that they still have the key to, that person gets to decide what happens when they get their rights restored and they can come back home.
If they want to continue letting you live in their house, they're a better person than I am. But it's not for us to decide. What we get to decide is how our community responds to this and how we get to stand with the people who are being brutalized and still fighting back every single day in Palestinians. It's our job to hit the streets. It's our job to amplify their voices. It's our job to follow their politics and their political tactics and not criticize every fucking thing that they do, because people don't have to be perfect in order to deserve liberation. We have to be in solidarity with Palestinians, as Jews it is our obligation to do so. Because it is our culture and our history and our present on the line here deeply caught up with and deeply tied up with Palestinian liberation in every, every tiny piece, in every moment.
I credit the Palestinian liberation movement with bringing me back to Judaism. And with teaching me what it means to be- not just somebody who goes to synagogue and believes the stuff and participates in the culture- but with what it means to be a Jew who's rooted in her own history, and in the liberatory struggle of her own people.
And I couldn't have learned that at Jewish day school because I would've been taught to hate Muslims and Palestinians, more likely than not. And I'm not saying Jewish education is bad, it's actually a very, very good thing, but the institutions that fund this shit, the institutions that are selling out Jewish history and Jewish legacy for Zionism are rotten to the core. And they're not about Judaism. They're about money, and power, and violence. And we need to take that shit back. And we can't take that shit back if somebody else's blood is on our hands.
[01:02:15] Caullen: Bars! Bars! 2022! Stephanie Skora! Cop that mix tape June, for the primary.
[01:02:26] David: Bro. All the things. And I, and like, I don't know. And it's so- not being Palestinian, not being Jewish, Caullen, it's interesting, you have received that type of comment- as a cult raising Christian, I was told, okay the Jews are the original sons, or the original children of God, but then we believe in Christ, and so we got it better. And so we're gonna go to heaven. And so that's kinda all I really- and then, I was never really told anything about Muslim religion. So, I'm just trying to connect into where I'm at. And so for the folks who I'm talking to, who come from that same kind of background. And there's like, oh, well, so you're okay with terrorists blowing themselves up inside of churches and stuff? I'm like, first of all that's not happening. It was around the time when Israeli forces were bombing during a time of prayer or whatever.
Anyway, I'm trying to talk to somebody about this and it's just, I don't know, it's just- and I think I go back to another conversation, sometimes some people are so worried about them having to restructure their entire understanding of the world. And if we're going around like, oh so you're telling me that- cause the other thing is like, oh but Jews have been persecuted their entire life, and so how are you gonna tell me that this land isn't theirs. Or some folks take it to like, this is a land debate thing or whatever. Like, Caullen, what was that video that you sent us earlier today? That was literally just trying to name it as such. It's like, oh this is just a-
[01:04:00] Caullen: a landlord-tenant dispute
[01:04:02] David: Yeah a land dispute or whatever. Cause people used to live there and then Jordan never changed the rules or whatever. And I'm just like, what are you talking about fool?
I don't know. It's just wild. I'm just trying to bring us all back to the discourse is very difficult. Much like, remapping, there's not just any easy solution even though we want it to be. I don't know, it's baffling. And I want to center folks to continue as, if your ideology, if your belief system hurts another person, then clearly there's a problem.
And I think that's been a good line for me to be able to talk to folks about. I'm like, do you understand, they're coming through- they're taking their house. What you're referring to Stephanie, I think I went on Instagram for a whole rant on Sunday about it. Cause someone was all like, well if they ain't home, they're gonna take it. I was like, yo are you being- you trying be funny right now?
[01:04:53] Caullen: What kind of logic is that?
[01:04:54] David: First of all, they're at a funeral and this is what's happening
[01:04:56] Stephanie: do you leave your house?
[01:04:58] David: Meanwhile, this is what's happening, dude. And he's all- I guess some of us use humor in ways to try to make our world seem like a better place. But. Nah, fams, look at what's going on. And so I think there's a lot of learning to happen. Such as with our electoral politics, we have our tools like the "Girl, I Guess" voter guide and just watch other homies like that.
Stephanie, what would you encourage for folks who are trying to get more aware, more intertwined or, let's say they, too, right now are a Jew and are listening to you for the first time. How would you encourage folks to get engaged and/or what- how do folks get engaged or educate themselves?
[01:05:41] Stephanie: I think the educating themselves part is really the most important part, first. We are in crisis. We don't have time for people to wait and educate themselves, and read 5,000 books and then join the movement. But also at the same time, we don't have time for people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about to be running around doing shit.
So, for somebody who's where I was several years ago, who didn't know anything about Palestine, who didn't know anything about how Zionism was bad- listen to anti-Zionist Jewish voices, listen to Palestinian voices especially, and first and foremost. And sit with the discomfort that you have listening to them and reading the things that they say. It's gonna make you feel really, really, really uncomfortable.
It's gonna make you wanna look away. It's gonna make you wanna unfollow them. Don't do that shit. Undoing brainwashing takes time. And for a lot of Jewish people, especially who grew up in mainstream Jewish communities with access to wealth and Jewish community because of that, you may not have been taught anything bad about the Israeli state or Zionism since the day you were born.
You may have gone to synagogue with your parents and gone to a Jewish preschool, and gone to a Jewish day school, and gotten Saturday school and all sorts of things. And you may not have heard anything that made you question your belief that Israel was good until today, or three, or last week or whenever. Listen to that voice in your gut that tells you this shit's fucked up. And listen to the people who are saying the same thing.
Now there's some people out there that you shouldn't listen to, but you'll be able to figure out who those ones are really fast. But listen to Palestinians, listen to them talk about their humanity. Listen to them talk about their history. Listen to them talk about their struggle, and what they need for their own liberation, and do what they say.
Then go and find Jews like myself, Jews who are anti-Zionist, Black and Brown Jews, Indigenous Jews, Jews from other parts of the world who are Ashkenazi. Listen to the things that we are saying about our history, and about Zionism, and about how Zionism interacts with our history and figure out what you can do to fight back in your community.
Sometimes it's just talking about things. There's a really awful tradition in Jewish communities of avoiding uncomfortable conversations, which is really weird because you don't think about Jews as people who avoid arguments. But there's- Jews notoriously don't talk about race.
We don't talk about gender. We don't talk about money. And we don't talk about Palestine. Those are just like, it's complicated, it's too hard of a conversation. And we are not a people who shy away from a fight or an argument. And when people don't wanna talk about something, I think that's a cognitive dissonance that needs to be exposed.
We need to talk about Palestine. We need to talk about how wealth pervades mainstream Judaism to the point where people's grandparents who are on fixed incomes are going hungry so they can pay their synagogue dues, because they're too embarrassed to admit that they can't afford it. We have to acknowledge the fact that you have to pay $200 to attend a service in a temple for our most holy days out of the year. And that there's limited seats available. And that these are things that you have to have wealth and access to afford, rather than things that should be made accessible to every member of our community, because that's how we stay engaged with each other.
And that's how Jews survive is in community with each other. And you have to learn, you have to listen, you have to read. If you don't have time to read books, read Instagram posts. If you don't have time to read Instagram posts, listen to a podcast like this one. Hey, if you don't have time to listen to a podcast, go on fucking TikTok or Instagram Reels or some shit, but be careful cause it's bad out there.
[01:09:31] David: Mother fuckers are ballsy, bro. Ballsy.
[01:09:33] Caullen: And I think-
[01:09:35] Stephanie: yeah, people need to grapple with their discomfort past the point where it spurs them to inaction. Because we do not have time for people to sit around anymore. It's too fucking late. We need to do some shit. Our world is burning and our society is collapsing. And we need every single person to be on the right side here, so we have any chance at all of surviving, or making it to a world that's better than this one afterwards.
[01:10:03] Caullen: Yeah, you gotta be careful with some of the posts and things out there. I that's what the person that I was talking to was upset about, as far as folks who maybe weren't involved- talking about free Palestine. And she's like, ah you weren't involved, cause it gets catchy and it's cool. And I'm like, so I hear you. We got into the weeds of it and things, and so social media is a weird ecosystem. In that it can lead to knowing about certain things, educating folks, getting in the streets, knowing about other bigger things to educate you on an issue or your own cognitive dissonance as far as how to get involved or not involved with said fights. But also, people can say they know what they're talking about and they don't. There's probably a Shaun King-esque figure for every different issue.
You know what I mean? So it's like, they're saying the good shit, but also they're toxic and how do you manage that? And that's a whole different conversation. So yeah, I think back to those conversations I was had in last year and, David, you kind of asked me as far as someone who's not Palestinian, who's not Jewish, doesn't have that lineage or identity, and how do I connect with it a little bit? And just to be short- if I'm someone who believes in tearing down these -isms, tearing down these structures and having to do that work interpersonally with myself, as well as out in the world, that's a whole thing that's difficult to do, but I think it's important.
So there's that piece in itself. And it's also Black liberation and Palestinian liberation is connected. In very, very obvious ways. There's Black Palestinians. And also ways as far as- CPD trains Israeli soldiers.
[01:11:35] Stephanie: And vice versa
[01:11:37] Caullen: and vice versa. And broaden that, NYPD has offices globally. This municipal police force. And so in really real ways, as far as our oppressors are actually the same, the exact same. They're using the same materials, the same military grade weapons, and things of that nature. As well as resistance against them is the same: as far as identity, as far as how we're fighting, as far as learning from each other. Looking at the Ferguson uprisings and looking at different egregious actions, egregious actions that are documented by journalists that we know about and how Palestinians are fighting the IDF
[01:12:14] Stephanie: to deepen that connection, too, is the same- and you know this is a very- it's a common line now because it's true- the same tear gas used in Ferguson was tested in Gaza. There's literally a very extensive digital history of during the Ferguson uprisings Palestinian organizers in Gaza were tweeting to the folks in Ferguson telling them how to treat their eyes after the tear gas, because that same tear gas that the Ferguson police was using was tested on Palestinians in Gaza by the IDF. Because the IDF uses Gaza as an open air prison and weapons testing ground, on our dollar.
[01:12:51] Caullen: On our dollar.
And that too, another layer, as far as this is all connected- and I think one of the things I was- no one said this to me, but I saw out in the social media ether was, well, if you're against Palestine- or if you're against Israel as an imperial force, are you also against the United States?! It's like,
[01:13:09] All: Yes!!
[01:13:09] Caullen: This man told both of them. I love when the "gotcha questions" gets turned back on you. It's like, yeah. Are you against NATO as well?
[01:13:20] All: Yes!
[01:13:21] Caullen: You're learning! This is great! And I say that intentionally, cause yeah, these are all lines we fucking made up. And they validate themselves as far as aiding the state by force, and by brainwashing. So the everyday folks are believers this forever. And you understand why, cause why wouldn't you? And I remember I had a impromptu political discussion with someone I worked with at a fitness studio. It was mainly me talking and him listening. And he asked a question here and there. And he didn't ask "what do we do?" but, "why do you think this is?" And I could have easily been like, oh cause slavery and the capitalist mehmahmeh. And I was like, cause everyday people believe it, because it's normalized. That's why. To your point, yeah trump and Bibi are awful fascists. Yeah. Yes, of course. But also-
[01:14:13] Stephanie: it's not even Bibi anymore. It's somebody worse, it's Naftali Bennett. Another change from 2020 is Israel has a new prime minister and he's worse than the last guy!
[01:14:22] Caullen: Oof. But like, yeah they're all awful and all the things and whatever, but- cause without this conversation you may have believed some of this shit. And you're a good person. You're not Bibi. You know what I mean? Everyday people believe the shit and it's normal and it's normalized. That's what scares me. And that's where I- that's where I can actually make a change. I'm not gonna convince trump not to be a horrible person, but other folks who have believed these things for no fault to their own, that's where I, and I think Soapbox in a lot of ways, and do narrative and through having these discussions, and making it accessible, and making things like the "Girl, I Guess" voter guide and being like, Hey here's what's up. Here's what's happening. Here's what you should do. Here's why, or if not, fuck me, do what you want. People resonate with that
[01:15:05] David: but it's here. But it's here, we're here.
[01:15:07] Stephanie: And that's one of the reasons why I put police abolition, and I put Palestinian liberation so front and center in "Girl, I Guess" and I make them my endorsement criteria, is because I know it's not just people like the three of us reading it.
It's white moms in the suburbs. White moms in the suburbs really love "Girl, I Guess".
[01:15:23] Caullen: Shout out, Cheryl.
[01:15:24] Stephanie: Yeah! Hey, thanks Karen. Shout out to Karen in Glenbrook, and Rachel in Evanston. I see you, I hear you, thanks for reading. But these are people for whom they may never consume media that encourages them to grapple with these topics.
And if they do, that media may not tell them the choice you're making is in support of this. That's why my endorsement- and I think 1) I understand politics, and I understand the political game and I'm not expecting every single person to- while I would like them to, I understand that it's not necessarily realistic to expect candidates for Congress to come out and say, "free Palestine".
I want them to, and I'm gonna push them towards that. And I'm gonna hold them accountable if I know that they believe that and they don't say it. And also we live in a fucked up country, and the federal government is garbage, and politics are what they are, and you have to have realistic expectations in order to win in a rigged game. I'm not expecting the people who are trying to play that game to play by the rules that we want ourselves to live by. They've made that compromise, and I understand that. And I understand the sandbox that they're playing in. And, that's cool, that's their context, whatever, that's on them, not me.
And there are people who are running for office, who do say "free Palestine". And I endorse them. And there are people who are running for office who do say "defund the police" and I endorse them. And when I put those things in voter education people often think, well electoralism and police abolition- or electoralism and international solidarity and liberation are completely divorced from each other. And actually there's a lot of interconnecting threads, where the people that are running for office sometimes believe a lot of the same things that we believe. And when I'm telling some white mom in Oak Park to vote for Kina Collins, because Kina Collins is a badass and a leftist, what I'm telling her to vote for is somebody who wants to defund police, who wants to stand in solidarity with Palestinians. And I'm saying that in the endorsement text. And so it's a way of getting people to actively grapple with the fact that, no you're not just voting for a candidate that you think is best for vaginas, or whatever. That may be true also, but you can't cast that vote without also recognizing these are the things you're voting for too, and these are also good things. And you know that these are good things because these are the people- these are the things that the folks that you're not voting for are vilifying and trying to make sound ridiculous.
There's a race in the 3rd congressional district actually right now where asshole incumbent alderman and dude whose ward is now just Grand Avenue, Gil Vllegas, he is this totally shitty person. Pro cop, anti-people,
[01:18:27] Caullen: I don't think I know him.
[01:18:29] Stephanie: That's okay.
[01:18:29] David: The 34th ward?
[01:18:32] Stephanie: 36th
[01:18:33] David: 36. Okay, cool. I'm looking at the map now. So I'm trying to see where it's at.
[01:18:36] Stephanie: Well, his new map is like this noodle. It's got parts of 9 different wards in it, in the new map. That thing is fucked. Fucked beyond belief.
[01:18:45] Caullen: So weird. It's all so weird
[01:18:48] Stephanie: but he's running for Congress with the backing of some really awful people, including democratic majority for Israel, a pro-Israel group that endorses pro-Israel Democrats.
And he's running against Delia Ramirez, who is a progressive Latina from the 4th district in the state house. She's the incumbent 4th district state representative, and she's running for Congress. And she's this really, really wonderful, really, really progressive person. And you know, he took the democratic majority for Israel endorsement. Doesn't say a thing about Israel on his website. But he took it because he's using their money to attack Delia as he he's trying to- he's calling her a socialist, he's calling her a communist, he's calling her anti-police as though these are bad things.
And I'd be remiss if I didn't say there's also a Palestinian guy running in that race. His name is Iymen Chehade. He's a really, really cool dude. Y'all should look him up. He runs a Palestinian focused theater in Logan square. And I can't remember the name of his nonprofit right now, and I feel really, really bad about it, but you should google "Iymen Chehade theater" and donate. Donate to his nonprofit, he's a really cool dude. I did not endorse him in the race because he's embroiled in a scandal with Marie Newman right now. He also does not live in the district and
[01:20:13] Caullen: ahh, bruh
[01:20:15] Stephanie: and it's not that he doesn't live in the district it's that he lives 3 miles outside the district. And there's just a whole- he's a really, really nice guy and his positions on Palestine and Kashmir are perfect. And he's a really progressive dude. And I really like him a lot as a person, but he's not the best choice for that congressional seat for a number of reasons. And I really wish that he was cause I would endorse him, and I really wish he was running for the fucking congressional seat that he lived in the district for cause I'd endorse him in that one too. There's another really cool guy running for that one named Junaid Ahmed who's running against Raja Krishnamoorthi who loves Hindu fascists and Israel. But like- and this is the thing, is like the federal government fucking sucks, and Congress is a nothing job because an individual Congress person has zero power and also a lot of really cool people run for Congress and deserve our support cause the assholes who are in Congress right now don't. But you know, even just going down the line, the person who's running to replace Delia in the state house in the 4th district is named Lilian Jimenez. And she is this badass mom, organizer, and immigration attorney. Who is- a cop is running against her.
these things matter, right? And so it's not just confronting people who wouldn't otherwise engage with these ideas with the fact that voting for progressives means voting for police abolition, prison abolition, universal basic income, universal healthcare, a free Palestine, all these things that we all want, but it also means pointing out explicitly- you don't have to vote for this person if communism and socialism make you uncomfortable. You don't have to vote for this person that if defunding the police makes you uncomfortable, but this is who your other options are, and this is what they believe. And you have to now make a choice, and you have to grapple with the implications of what making that choice means for you.
And maybe you're not just a, "we believe" progressive who puts a lawn sign out and loves Elizabeth Warren. Maybe you have some deeper thinking to do there because you wouldn't vote for the other person because you recognize that they were bad, and the things that they believed were bad and out step with your values.
And it's inspiring that cognitive dissonance in people. It's inspiring that deeper level of thought in people. That's one of the low-key projects of "Girl, I Guess", is- yeah it's a political education tool for leftists and for- it's a cheat sheet for my friends who don't want to engage in electoralism, but know that voting still matters.
And it's also a radicalization handbook for white moms in the suburbs.
[01:22:57] Caullen: Love that
[01:22:58] Stephanie: you know, and I'm not out here telling them exactly how to do shit and how to become a better person, cause I don't have that kind of time or that kind of patience, but I am telling them that something that they believe is really important like voting in congressional elections is tied to these broader movements that might scare them a little bit. And they have to get over that shit because the candidate that they're voting for already did.
[01:23:23] David: Oftentimes there's worries where groups about leaning one way more to another, because of stirring the pot too hard. Have you- what kind of shit you get from people? Have you gotten any negative feedback from- actually good negative feedback? Not just like, Hey Stephanie you suck. Has there been anyone who's actually giving you good hate? I know you read your hate mail from a while ago
[01:23:48] Stephanie: oh, the religious hate mail?
[01:23:49] David: Hilarious. Yeah, the religious hate mail. But I'm curious if you got any "Girl, I Guess", hate mail or has any of the incumbent's hit you up? I would hit you up, be like, what you mean you don't like me?
[01:24:00] Caullen: Dear Stephanie "Girl, I Guess", NOT. Got him!
[01:24:03] Stephanie: You know, I get a lot of that shit actually. I get a lot of really dumb hate mail. Cause people who write hate mail generally are not- you know, they don't have the brain power to really follow their idea through all the way. I really don't get a lot of the genuine engagement negative feedback. A lot of the time because people who have that sort of critical analysis to give me understand- I put it in there, I get what you're gonna say. I understand what you're gonna say, and I acknowledge it and it's a legitimate viewpoint. I just disagree. And you're not gonna, you know, and this is one of the things that I think "agree to disagree" is okay on cause it's not about somebody's basic human rights, or whether or not somebody is a person. But the folks who are gonna come to me and say like, oh, well, this doesn't actually matter, you shouldn't actually do this. 1) they know they're not gonna convince me, cause I just wrote like 80 fucking pages about why they should vote.
[01:25:00] David: Over weeks and weeks.
[01:25:01] Stephanie: Right. And 2) I think, I'm gonna give them a little bit of credit and I think they understand that ultimately we want the same thing, and ultimately we're trying to get it- we're trying to come to it from the same perspective and from the same avenues, because part of the reason why folks read "Girl, I Guess", is because that's not the only thing that I do in Chicago. That's not the only way that I engage in politics and engage in activism. I've been a part of organizing campaigns.
I've been a part of movements. I used to go to a lot of protests, and now I don't have as much time cause my job makes me work more hours than I want to, because that's what happens when you are in a nonprofit. And love my job, but also it's a lot.
And you know, I don't have the same amount of time that I used to when I didn't- when my job couldn't afford to pay me to work full time. So I don't have the same amount of time to engage in politics. But people know what I believe and they know that I have been in the streets, and that I put in the work, and that I have actual relationships with organizers and communities.
And I'm not just saying shit as a random white person to say it. They know who I'm accountable to. And they know that like, yeah if somebody wants to hit me up after I release the guide on May 19th and say like, ah, you know, I really don't think you should be doing this. I think this is a waste of your time, blah, blah, blah. I'll listen to their criticisms. There's real shit that people could get me to say- or that people could say to me that I would make me stop and think and listen. And my pushback to them is always, okay I will accept your negative feedback, but you need to propose an alternative to me.
Especially when I'm not just out here posting on Instagram to get money. I'm not- this isn't about clout for me. Do I get- do people know who I am, and all that sort of stuff, because I write "Girl, I Guess"? Yeah. But that's not why I do it. I do it because it's a public education tool. And I did it before people cared that I did it. Which is why people know that it's not about the clout. I didn't do it to be famous, I did it because I think that this is an important way to engage in community.
[01:27:13] David: Y'all motherfuckers need it.
[01:27:14] Stephanie: right. And I think for folks who really wanna make the argument that my time would be used else- my time would be better used elsewhere, I'm gonna say, okay, cool-
[01:27:25] Caullen: I'm listening.
[01:27:26] Stephanie: I'm listening, I accept that argument, and this is something that I know thousands and thousands and thousands of people engage with and they gain something from it and it educates them. So if you don't want me to do it, who's gonna do it instead? And who's time is gonna be well used doing this thing you don't believe in that may not be the perfect tool for liberation- and I'm not claiming that it is, or even anywhere close- but it's something that helps people and helps people evolve their politics. And if I shouldn't be doing it, I accept that, but somebody should be doing it. And that's actually one of the things that I really enjoy that's happened in sort of the wake of "Girl, I Guess" is there's a lot of voter guides now. There's a lot of voter guides. People write voter guides now because it's cool. And because their communities engage with that sort of material. And I'm not gonna say it's because of "Girl, I Guess", but I certainly didn't see as many voter guides circulating before "Girl, I Guess", got big.
And one of the most validating experiences of this whole journey for me has been in 2021 Evanston Fight for Black Lives. Cause I don't do suburbs coverage. There's 133 non-Chicago municipalities in Cook County, and that's too fucking much for me. I don't give a shit about any of them. I don't live there, that's their problem-
[01:28:51] Caullen: Shout out Wilmette.
[01:28:53] Stephanie: Shout out Wilmette, and also go fuck yourself, Wilmette, I don't live there. Figure out your own shit. I'm not googling the random people who are running for your school board. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that.
[01:29:04] Caullen: They're not on google. They are not on google, I can tell you that much.
[01:29:07] Stephanie: They're not on google and I'm not doing that, cause then I have to do that for everybody. And that's- I don't have that kind of time. I don't have that kind of time. But Evanson Fight for Black Lives, which is a really, really dope Black youth led community organizing collective reached out to me and said, Hey, our municipal election is happening in March 20- or I don't remember whether it was March, but it's happening in 2021. And we wanna write an edition of "Girl, I Guess" for Evanston, can we use the name? And I said, yeah sure. What do you need? Can I- and I ultimately- I helped them edit it because there's a bunch of stuff that you learn from writing voter guides like 12 times. It's not 12 yet, but it'll be 12 soon.
There's a bunch of stuff that you learn from doing this over and over and over again, that it takes you a lot of time to figure out the first time. And so I wound up editing their edition of the guide just to sort of speed them along in the process. And they wrote a really fucking cool voter guide.
They sent out a candidate questionnaire. They did a whole bunch of shit that I wish I had the time to do. And they wrote a really cool public education tool, and it made the news in Evanston. They endorsed a young Black man for mayor, instead of Daniel Biss, and that was the only endorsement that he got up to that point. And a lot of people voted for him. I think he was right outta high school. And a lot of people voted for him because of that guide.
[01:30:34] Caullen: That's amazing
[01:30:36] Stephanie: I got to be a part of this thing that these Black youth organizers in Evanston thought was important enough that they wanted to dedicate their time to it. And that was really meaningful for me, because not only was it validating that this is something that I should keep doing, but it also showed me that people find value in the way that "Girl, I Guess" lets them engage in elections and in electoral politics without feeling gross about themselves.
And that it's okay to say, yeah fucking hold your nose and vote for people, that's how we all feel. These are the facts. All endorsements are shrugs. None of these people are perfect. You're just like, eh I'll pick this one. But you're making an informed choice, and for folks who want to give me that negative feedback, I'll accept it. But I need an alternative, cause I'm not just gonna stop what I'm doing because you want me to, or because you don't think it's a good use of my time. You've gotta convince me and you've gotta convince me of what you want me to do next, how that's gonna help youth in Evanston who think that "Girl, I Guess", is so important that they wanted to write their own edition and call it the same thing.
Tell me a better use of my time than helping Black youth figure out shit in their own community. I'm not gonna take credit for their work, but I am gonna say they explicitly said that they were inspired by the thing that I did. And as a white person, if I can contribute to something that inspires Black political organizing, that's about the peak of my achievement. And that's as good as I can get. And if that continues to happen, then in addition to the other stuff that I'm doing, that's what I'm being asked to do, and that's all the messages of solidarity and accountability for white folks in movements for racial justice tell me to do. If you want me to not do that, you gotta gimme a better alternative.
[01:32:26] Caullen: I don't know. I think you should just putting in your lawn, "in this house we believe in...."
[01:32:33] Stephanie: Hang a Ukraine flag out my window.
[01:32:36] Caullen: Ooohhhhh, that's a different episode, girl.
[01:32:38] David: We didn't even get to it. I wanted to talk about it.
[01:32:41] Caullen: I feel like you're Frank Lucas. You got a brand name.
(movie clip)
[01:32:44] Caullen: Don't cut my shit.
[01:32:49] Stephanie: I'm Willie Wilson. No, I'm not Willie Wilson. I got a brand name, gas cards and traffic jams. And I'm gonna get 10% of the vote every time.
[01:32:57] Caullen: Willie, what do you want, Willy?
[01:32:59] Stephanie: He wants to be mayor, and president, and governor, and senator all at the same time
[01:33:05] Caullen: Just give your money to people and just do that. Just chill and give us your money.
[01:33:11] Stephanie: My favorite thing is the man absolutely refuses to run for state Senate or Congress, or something that he could easily win. Just fucking- if you wanna be a politician so bad, just make the commute to Springfield, bro. It's not- you could win this election, you have a shit ton of money.
[01:33:30] Caullen: it's almost like it's about his ego or something. I don't know. I don't wanna- I mean, Willy, I don't wanna get into that
[01:33:35] Stephanie: the McDonald's franchisee? Doing it for his ego?? No, man!!!
[01:33:41] Caullen: I just love in the city's surreal series, when they talk to him in his home, he has a painting of Malcolm X, MLK- which is already kind of weird, and Obama- which gets even weirder, and then him. And I'm just like, what is happening? None of these people are the same. What is happening?
[01:34:07] Stephanie: Candidate for mayor of Chicago, 2023. Actually, he's running for mayor again. That's not a joke.
[01:34:17] Caullen: No, that's not a joke. He's running. So is Raymond Lopez. I have a question for you- I guess with "conventional political logic", especially in Chicago, fuck Raymond Lopez as a person, but an alderperson running for mayor, just in general, what is your impression of that?
[01:34:40] Stephanie: It doesn't happen a ton.
[01:34:42] Caullen: It doesn't happen a ton. Yeah.
[01:34:43] Stephanie: It doesn't happen a ton cause then they have to give up their seat, and it's a lot better to be an alderperson than it is to be the mayor of Chicago. Cause everybody hates the mayor, but only some people hate the alderman, and
[01:34:52] Caullen: unless you're Raymond Lopez.
[01:34:55] Stephanie: Well, and also, Raymond Lopez, everybody hates fucking Raymond Lopez anyway, cause he is a total asshole. The man has a face that says if Wallace Shawn was a bad person. And that's all I have to say about him.
It's weird, alderpeople don't run for mayor that much. There might be a couple more alderpeople who run for mayor in this cycle. They generally only run when they think they can win. And the most dystopian part about the mayoral cycle was up until last week when state representative Kam Buckner- who's a great dude and has never actually faced an opponent in an election- he's been unopposed in every single election that he's run in.
[01:35:33] Caullen: Really?
[01:35:34] Stephanie: Yeah. He was appointed in 2019. And he ran unopposed, and then he ran unopposed again. And he ran an opposed in the general twice
[01:35:43] David: with the election, I think there's a lot for us to look forward to. Stephanie, thank you so much for your time, for sharing the-
[01:35:51] Stephanie: yes, of course
"Girl,
[01:35:52] David: I Guess" for another year. Cause I do know- I think we started the last episode- 60 being like, I don't know if we're gonna be doing this again- cause it was 2020. Alas, here we are. Very glad that you're doing it, cause as you mentioned, it does impact a lot of folks in form of education. And we're being micro in regards to Chicago, but we have to continue to understand and sit with the nasty that this is an international scope and projection of- you know just because we endorse someone- what is their relationship to Israel? What is that relationship to South America?
[01:36:28] Caullen: Kasmir
[01:36:28] David: What is their relationship with Ukraine? And being intentional and wanting to sit with that icky-mickey and then making that decision. Cause to our point earlier is like, I'd rather you be openly and be like, fuck people of color, fuck gay people- you know, cool, at least we're hearing you and you're confident what you're saying. Not like this whole middle ground bullshit where we have to kind of go around it, aka Lori Lightfoot. But we told y'all Lori Lightfoot was trash. So if y'all listening and you voted for her, that's on you.
[01:36:59] Stephanie: It's on you and your "we believe" signs
[01:37:05] David: But any last shoutouts, Stephanie, to the homies or any last notes you would like to leave our listeners with?
[01:37:11] Stephanie: "Girl, I Guess" will be out by the time that this episode comes out. girliguess.com or @stephanieskora on Instagram for the posts about it. It's gonna be a lot closer to the election by the time this episode comes out, so please leave me alone, I'll have probably gotten whatever feedback you want to give me.
But also feel free to give me whatever feedback you want. Shout out to the folks who are inspiring the ability for folks to organize in this city. There are so many amazing radical groups in Chicago. I don't have enough time to name them all, but I guarantee if you are a person in the city of Chicago looking to get involved in liberatory politics, there is a group in your neighborhood who's doing mutual aid, or organizing your ward, or making sure that people are taken care of. Reach out. Find those people. Join up. Do something good. Hit the street., hit the ballot box. And get right back to the streets. We all live in this city. We're all in this shit together. It's in all of our best interest to have the best representation possible. And also we can't just vote and then do nothing. We have to vote and then hold people accountable in the streets with our voices and with our bodies, because this is one tool in the toolbox, but liberation is a hard fucking job. And if we don't try every avenue available to us, we're not doing it all the way.
[01:38:28] Caullen: That was beautiful. I just wanna add to that too. We are also part of institutions in some capacity. Institutions, workplaces that we have leverage over- if your entity, your workplace wants to put the Ukrainian flag out, be like, Hey, dope, awesome, so why are we doing this? Or what's your criteria? Okay, cool, I have this criteria now on paper, or on email so when the next egregious thing happens in, I don't know, Palestine, in, I don't know, Afghanistan, and I don't know, insert country-that-the-US-is-imperializing here, we can also have solidarity with them cause we put it in writing. So I think that's important too, as far as we're all part of some kind of places that we may not agree with their decisions, or maybe we do, but we wanna codify that in some capacity and use that as well. And this- one of the bigger things this podcast episode that I want- I'm still thinking about too, is borders. All this shit's made up, all this shit is man-made. And I say, "man" intentionally, it's man-made. We made all this shit up. We can make up something much better and much greater.
[01:39:29] Stephanie: Yeah.
[01:39:30] David: That's the fact. So you heard it first. No, I'm just kidding. Motherfucker's been saying it for a minute. But if you heard it here first on Bourbon 'n Browntown, shout out. And we appreciate you for listening, and as always stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer
[01:39:42] Caullen: stay tuned, stay turnt.
(Music Credits) Outro music Payback by Immortal Technique ft. Diabolic and Ras Kass
[01:40:13] David: Bourbon 'n BrownTown is engineered by Kiera Battles. For more credits, information on episode guests, related media and topics check out the episode notes. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Bourbon 'n BrownTown, Twitter @BourbonnBrwnTwn. Or visit soapboxpo.com/podcast
[01:40:28] Caullen: For any and all things Soapbox Productions and Organizing, follow us @soapboxpo on all social media and visit soapboxpo.com.