BrownTown gets meta with return guest Sophie Elizabeth James, sociologist, program manager in the anti-human trafficking sector, and creator of the Unpaid Emotional Labor podcast. The team dissects our current independent media landscape and the digital and socio-political histories that make it up.
BrownTown gets meta with return guest Sophie Elizabeth James, sociologist, program manager in the anti-human trafficking sector, and creator of the Unpaid Emotional Labor podcast. The team dissects our current independent media landscape and the digital and socio-political histories that make it up. While they center their own experience in making films and podcasts and using social media, they also lean into noteworthy media events in relation to dominant narratives on "propaganda", media literacy, and the issues of too many dudes with podcasts.
GUEST
Sophie Elizabeth James is a political sociologist and project manager in the anti-human trafficking sector and creator of the Unpaid Emotional Labor podcast. With a masters in sociology AND pop culture, she aims to provide nuance and levity to topics taken for granted. She is most interested in how folx negotiate their identities in the sociopolitical and engaging in a system that seeks to destroy. Her favorite pastimes are verbally eviscerating bored trolls with expert use of their colonized language. Follow Sophie on Instagram and Unpaid Emotional Labor on Instagram and Patreon.
Mentioned in episode:
CREDITS: Intro/outro music XXX by Kendrick Lamar. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles. Episode photo by Victoria Price.
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Ep. 77 - Independent Media Creation in the Age of Spin (& Capital) ft. Sophie Elizabeth James
BrownTown gets meta with return guest Sophie Elizabeth James, sociologist, program manager in the anti-human trafficking sector, and creator of the Unpaid Emotional Labor podcast. The team dissects our current independent media landscape and the digital and socio-political histories that make it up.
INTRO
Intro music XXX by Kendrick Lamar
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:14] David: So I want to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. I am your cohost David, out here hanging out with my boy, Caullen. Bro, how you doing today?
[00:01:24] Caullen: B-b-b-b B'nB!
[00:01:28] David: I still have yet to get my keynotes, bro. No one ever gave my little keyboard thing that I should be having- sorry, go ahead, Caullen
[00:01:34] Caullen: you're making music with the keyboard? What's going on?
[00:01:36] David: No, I want the little, like that makes the sound
(air horn)
[00:01:41] David: I'm not trusted with those things, especially if we're drinking
[00:01:43] Caullen: That is facts. I'm doing okay. It's actually been a decent day. Emotional yet productively emotional week, if that makes any sense. As you know, it's been a- it's been a year within these three months. But you know, we're feeling okay. Looking forward to making moves for the future and all the levels. So I'm doing decent right now. How are you doing?
[00:02:12] David: Man, we're doing great. I'm not gonna lie, today in Chicago it is March and we had one of those weeks where it was really, really nice. And we're like, oh shit, okay, cool. I smelled carne asada being cooked and shit. And I was like, all right, this is happening. And then this entire week has been freezing and I haven't really left my house. But we're doing great. As you mentioned, Caullen, we haven't been on a mic in some time now, and so it's exciting to get into the things. But at least for a personal there's been opportunities to continue growing and developing as a human, so that's been fantastic. Even if we're not speaking it on the mic, it's still happening. Which is a lot of fun.
[00:02:54] Caullen: Facts
[00:02:54] David: and Soapbox has also had opportunities to develop as well. And so BNB is a part of that. And so, here we are a little late, but here we are without a doubt. And on that, we're on episode 77. I was just thinking about this, in lieu of what our conversation is going to be about, independent media creation in the age of spin. And I know we'll dive into the age of spin, but I was like, man, that was episode five, and I was like, we're on episode 77. I don't know, it's still hitting me on a daily basis. And the conversation itself, independent media creation, we'll get into that story, but that's really where I've been sitting with, to be honest- today, today. And so it's been hella exciting. A little reflectionary, or whatever- I'm reflecting.
[00:03:41] Caullen: Tell folks what episode five was because you mentioned the age of spin. How'd that come about?
[00:03:48] David: True, yeah. Episode five, did it in our living room. Did we do it in the living room? I don't even remember, but it was Genta Tamashiro, the original audio engineer for the podcast. Shout out to him wherever he's at. And we were talking about hip hop specifically, but in the age of spin, tying it into Dave Chappelle's standup at that time. Was it fucking 26?
[00:04:09] Caullen: At that time. Let's be very clear
[00:04:12] David: but we had been tying that, and then Kendrick Lamar had just dropped music, J Cole had been dropping music, and so we tied it up and Genta's a hip hop head, if y'all didn't know. And so that's where that came about. And so, thinking about that years ago, thinking about independent media creation and how that's developed for ourselves, right, as like Soapbox's Bourbon 'n BrownTown, but then thinking about the world at large. And it's it's not, Hey, it ain't all good, but there is a lot of light at the end of this tunnel. But yeah, any thoughts specifically to that about what we're talking about today?
[00:04:44] Caullen: Yeah. I think at the time comedy as an art form was kind of being a little decentralized, as far as being on streaming platforms like Netflix and what have you. And this idea of the age of spin, and how any kind of media that's being created, whether that's corporate media or independent media, can be produced with very varied opinions. Getting very large audiences. Which is good, that one entity isn't controlling the narrative. But also, now everyone's right, or using facts. I think that's similar to now and in everything, but also how we make media and make storytelling and make narratives. And then especially when capitalism's involved, how that gets muddled. I was thinking about this as you were talking too, in this episode we're talking very much about independent media. Media we create, the media our guest creates, media that's not part of a big institution or big corporate entity, and the layers of that and the truth in all of that and the perspectives that matter and perspectives that may have truth to them, but we'll bend it for certain ways. But also, I think we keep hearing from Trump on, from COVID on, from uprisings on "the nation's so divided. The world's so divided. It's the most divided it's ever been." Y'all remember slavery? Like, we've kind of been more divided before. So I think this idea, even as we're sitting with this phrase, now, the age of spin, I know why we're talking about it, it's because all those opinions and attitudes are much more out there, much more mainstream. All those folks with power are taking those and making them into policy and it's actually harming people, or #### people in certain ways that can be really extreme. So I think it's valid, but I'm kind of thinking back to our episode with Gumbo Media- shout out- about Blackness and Black media and Black culture and owning that, putting out in the mainstream, and making cultural media, what that means? Especially ethnic media, or towards an ethnic audience. And one of the things we mentioned then was that that's always been the case, but that ethnicity is whiteness, and it's invisibilized and it's considered mainstream and normal. And I think it's the same thing with the age of spin. Before there wasn't so many voices making statements, making it a thing. But dominant media, we had twenty-five hundred news cycles in the nineties, even before that, it was like, whatever CBS is telling you is like, that's the truth, that's all we got. So it was still spun then, but folks like us, folks and other independent media creators didn't have access to make their voice known, to make it have a platform, to influence audiences, or dissect things that are not seen as worth dissection. Lowbrow culture, what have you. And so I think it's, we've always had an age of spin, it's just more obvious now because technology and things. And that's for better or for worse, which I think we'll get into here.
But I thought about that just recently, and I wanted to name that and we've always had the age of spin, it just looks different. And the dominant class or identities, whatever they are, do podcasts we'll get into, allow more access to those kinds of things. I'm excited and wanted to name that before we got into it.
But yeah, I'm excited. I'm super nervous cause we haven't recorded in months. And so I'm like I can talk in the podcast- that was before, and then the 76 times, at least, but now I'm like, ooo, booty hole's tight. Excited. We are so honored to once again, once again, second time
[00:08:09] David: she's blessing mics, but B'nB mic
[00:08:14] Caullen: to have with us, Sophie Elizabeth James, if y'all don't know she was on episode 41, discussing human trafficking and the Black body in 2019. This was pre COVID. Pre COVID times, so we were in the studio. Sophie has blessed us again with her presence. For y'all that don't know, who didn't listen to that episode, Sophie Elizabeth James, is a political sociologist and project manager in the anti-human trafficking sector. With a master's degree in Sociology and Pop Culture, she aims to provide nuance and levity to topics taken for granted. She is most interested in how folks negotiate their identities and the sociopolitical, and engaging in a system that seeks to destroy.
Her favorite pastimes are verbally eviscerating bored trolls on the internet, with expert use of their colonized language. S.E.J what's goody?
[00:09:03] Sophie: Oh my God. That bio gave me chills. It always feels like an out-of-body experience, I'm like, who is that? I hate myself. But I'm so- I mean, I'm the one that's honored to be back and I don't think I've ever, well, I have been asked back when a podcast before, but I just, the love is so real here.
I'm excited for what we're gonna talk about today and I missed y'all, especially in this medium. So I'm excited.
[00:09:28] David: I'm going to speak for both of us, we've missed you. Actually, I think since then, you've moved to Chicago- and so giving a little context-
(It's Chicago, nigga!)
[00:09:37] Sophie: Oh my god!
[00:09:40] David: Ey ey ey, tell em, tell em. But give the people a little more reference
[00:09:44] Sophie: 872, the ashiest area code!
I'm sorry! I just-
[00:09:47] David: Oooohhhh!!
[00:09:47] Sophie: I just- no, oh my, so this is a good update. I literally just changed my number from Tampa. Sorry. I don't want to like, let people know that that's where I moved from. No, I just changed it from a Florida area code to Chicago. And I walked in so confident.
I'm like, yo, my man Christian, let me get that 312. I really did. Cause I've got the AT&T right. down the street from my apartment and me and Christian have a rapport. So I go in there demanding I want a 312. He puts in my zip code, he's like, nah man, all that's coming up is 872, I can't help you.
And I literally made him put in the zip code for Hyde Park, zip codes of areas of- I think I made him put in Rockford, Illinois.
[00:10:36] Caullen: Ew why? Why you false flagging? Why you picking neighborhoods you like? Gimme Brownsville, gimme Inglewood- naw you ain't from there.
[00:10:46] Sophie: I mean, I don't really know all the numbers. I'm not Rain Man. But like I was trying to, like,
[00:10:51] David: She just moved here, bro
[00:10:51] Sophie: I was trying to generate a 312, and I literally made him do that for 10 minutes.
And I was like, just give me the 872. And then I literally Googled it, and it's so funny you sent me a text Caullen, cause I already got the background context. It's a layover zip code. It's still technically Chicago.
[00:11:13] Caullen: Is that Wilmette? Or Schaumburg, or some shit?
[00:11:16] David: My number's 708
[00:11:16] Sophie: Wow. Wow. This is how you guys show love. Okay, cool, cool, cool.
[00:11:20] Caullen: It actually is. That means we love you.
[00:11:22] David: Now I'm concerned. Wait, time out. My number is 708, what does that mean?
[00:11:25] Caullen: It means you're a Berwyn Bitch
[00:11:27] Sophie: It means you are fine. Not, Berwyn, Bitch. See, y'all play too much.
[00:11:34] David: I love it. The alliteration is there.
[00:11:36] Sophie: I feel like he was waiting to drop that for so long, cause it came so quick, but-
[00:11:41] David: It's been months. It's been months. No, go ahead
[00:11:45] Sophie: no, but he, what Christian told me is that they've run out of numbers associated with 312 and so 872 was kind of eased in, he said 2019, but Google said 2009.
So I don't know who to trust. I was spiraling yesterday, but you know, I took the L and I took the L for Chicago and I feel like I'm a true citizen, even a year and a half having lived here. Since I've been here, it's just been every- not that I needed certain things to happen to make me believe in my choice, but it's been this bonus of so many things have opened up.
I finished my master's. I am now working in the sector that I worked really hard to get into. And it's a very white dominated space and it's been really funny navigating that. And this is also when I last was on the podcast, I had just started therapy, so to see where I am, as a person, well-rounded, emotionally certain things that would have freaked me out or I would have been in a catatonic mode, it's like, oh no, it's just a Tuesday. And this didn't derail my life in any kind of way, or I didn't make this decision, or an impulsive decision. And it's just, I don't know, I feel like in every facet of my life, I'm healthy emotionally, financially, and even with my peers and people that I respect, my circle is small, but it's fulfilling.
Chicago ushered in all of that. And I don't know. So I changed my number cause I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to be here for God knows how long it's going to take something really big for me to move away, but Chicago is like my home. Sorry, that was a really verbose answer, ewwwww!
[00:13:57] David: That's what I love to hear. I tell people all the time, Chicago this, Chicago that, they're like, no, I don't know, man, blahblahblah, winters suck. I'm like, if that's your only thing,
[00:14:05] Sophie: Winter is winter!
[00:14:06] Caullen: Just wear a coat, I don't understand why
[00:14:07] David: Chill out, the summer is that much better. Just have your little holes in the ground. But we're glad that you're here.
And one thing that we're trying to get you to name that you didn't do is, you started your own podcast and you blew the fuck up. And you did that. I mean, there may have been a lot of planning, but I literally seen one thing about it. And then I seen that there's an IG page, and so I'm like, alright follow. And then a week later I'm like what the fuck?
And you just took it. You've been running with that. You want to tell people a little bit of context of what that is?
[00:14:33] Sophie: Okay, so, well- thank you. You know me, I'm so humble. I'm kidding. I am not. I started my podcast, Unpaid Emotional Labor, and it was something that I was thinking about.
I think I had texted you, David at time, during 2020 when the- everybody was a race scholar, right, during that period of uprisings. And us being forced to socialize or forced to sit still because of COVID and think, and a lot of people I think they were so vocal because they didn't like themselves, so they couldn't be with themselves.
But anyway, that's another- this is not Brené Brown's podcast- but I had thoughts of seeing so much being disseminated at this rapid rate, but also in such
[00:15:23] Caullen: So rapid
[00:15:23] Sophie: in such a lazily inept. And I'm like, what the fuck are people talking about? And they would always miss these huge glaring points, and also by not naming or centering the functionality of oppression, or actually naming what oppression is going on to even get us to a Summer of 2020.
And so this idea of Unpaid Emotional Labor of dissecting things that are taken for granted. I remember, I sat one day and I had already thought of 40 episode ideas. And then, cause- mind you, listeners- I was only in therapy for a year, I psyched myself the hell out. I was like, who are you? Who are you to think that you can take up space this way or talk? Or you're going to be a mumbling mess, as evidenced.
And I really psyched myself out and shrunk myself because of imposter syndrome and a lot of things. And cut to- what was it, August of 2020, no, August of 2021. So the tail end of summer of last year, I was watching The Bachelor, as I have been since 2003, and there was this- so there's this segment of hometown.
Where the lead takes their top four to meet and they go and meet their parents and their family to see can we, you know. And it's heteronormative trash, a dumpster fire, can our lives mesh well with, can I marry into wealth, basically, is what they're trying to sift through. And there was this one hometown date where this guy laid into the lead and it was the most agregious psychotic, sociopathic display of low hanging fuck boy.
And I was incensed by how people looked at that and we're calling it love. And because somebody called him Ryan Gosling once, people- he ran with that, and people were fawning over him and revering him for how he basically gaslit and verbally and emotionally abused this woman on national television in one take for 55 straight minutes.
It was disgusting. It lit social media on fire. I remember there was YouTube episodes of these therapists using that interaction of like, here's what not to do in an intimate relationship. It went so dark and I lost my mind and I went on Instagram live and I shared my thoughts and I guess my thoughts resonated with a lot of people.
And so I had this series Unpaid Emotional Labor on IG TV series. Then I was on the top Bachelor podcast called Chatty Broads, with Bekah and Jess. And they're good friends of mine. And then I really blew the fuck up. And then I was like, let's get this pay wall. Cause this shit ain't free.
[00:18:29] Caullen: Went viral
[00:18:31] Sophie: Yeah, it did. And I'm able to pay my rent solely off that. So I'm blessed, highly favored. I'm kidding. I'm just so grateful. Yeah, I'm so grateful for- even though it was this fit of rage that propelled me to take up space and as feedback kept coming and I would take on other topics or just dissect The Bachelor solely, it emboldened me to continue on with this and I'm going to record episode 30 tomorrow and yeah, it's exciting.
And you guys were on episode 16 and my followers were obsessed with you. I think I posted it on my Instagram, this one follower was like, "yeah, so I listened to that episode several times and I had to listen to it a third time to take notes." I'm like, oh, okay,
[00:19:30] Caullen: that's right! We dropping gems out here, fuck you talking about,
[00:19:36] Sophie: She had to journal and I'm like, this is why we're here. And so I just appreciate the love reciprocated on my space from you guys too. So all good things.
[00:19:47] David: Eyyyy
[00:19:48] Caullen: A lot of that I did not know as far as how you- those "natural" baby steps up until making the podcast. Like I knew you toying with it earlier.
But I didn't realize, this rant turned into a bunch of followers, turned into a podcast appearance, turned into making the thing. So I feel like that's, it's amazing to me how that happens in general. I feel like you normally hear that when it's like, a 13 year old got TikTok and went viral, and then they got a multi million dollar deal.
It's not normally a grown person who has a degree in this shit talking about it. I'm glad that people who know what they're talking about are also doing things. No shade to that 13 year old, I'm sure they did a great job with their TikTok, but I just didn't know that, and it's so cool to know that that's actually possible.
And you're actually looking at pop culture and then dissecting it in a way that matters to people. And it also matters to society. And we can look at all those systemic things, but code it into The Bachelor or Marvel or whatever. I think that's really, really important. So this is news to me. I think it's super dope.
[00:20:48] Sophie: What I did forget to add though, is that from that rant- cause I was so dysregulated because it triggered a past experience and also being so angry at this franchise's refusal to- I mean, as one would in a rate machine that is The Bachelor, it's going to take your worst insecurities as fodder to destroy and humiliate and all these things.
So I was dysregulated until the next morning and it prompted me to transcribe the entire 55 minutes. So I forgot that I transcribed the whole thing, it triggered getting my master's, like writing up my thesis, but I don't know why I did that, but I transcribed it. It was 18 pages and I had notes and I had-
it was a whole visual thing to where I was like, okay, so up here this was his logic, and then he contradicted himself by this statement, and here's the reason why. And so that was what the first episode going on IG live was reading this transcript. So that's what folks resonated with. And they DMd me and said, I want to pay you for your labor because your handle.
And so it started out as Venmos, and I think I made 500 just off of that.
[00:22:09] Caullen: Ohh, let's get this bread!
[00:22:11] Sophie: Yeah. And it, and when I launched the podcast, it was at 2,400 for patron and now that it's leveled out, it's a little bit below. But it's like, I have a little community of folks who- either it's a community of folks where there's like-mindedness or there's this deference to learning and folks who want to adhere to my boundaries.
Cause obviously entering this space, and to mitigate for imposter syndrome and also to protect my sanity, my very first episode was about boundaries and what it means to show up in this space as a Black woman, while people navigate in a virtual blackface with TikTok and all these things that we have to thwart, and y'all are upset that you're going to pay me $5, which you're gonna spend 8 for a oatmeal lavender latte or some shit, we're gonna pay Black women for their labor.
And you know, folks, I think the way that they still responded after my boundaries were set and continued to uphold that it's been really great.
[00:23:25] David: Well, we're glad that you're here and I'm sure our listeners are too. And maybe some of the Unpaid Emotional Labor listeners are hopping into this one. Being like, what is Sophie doing on this one?
[00:23:36] Sophie: Oh yeah, they're gonna come hard
[00:23:40] Caullen: B'nB patron where y'all at. Drop in that two grand, fuck you talking about
[00:23:44] David: We're probably, we- Sophie had moves and plans. Maybe we're gonna hire you for, nah I'm just- we'll see how that goes. It's like, "you can't afford me."
[00:23:54] Caullen: Can you volunteer your labor for us, or?
[00:23:57] Sophie: No no, I think there's a mutually beneficial relationship with that. So no, no, no,
[00:24:03] David: I'm totally teasing. I'm just dead. But with that, I do have a check-in question for us to kinda help center us back into this conversation of independent media creation in the age of spin. What has been the most iconic moment for each of you in media or digital history?
I'll toss it to whoever has an answer. I'm still thinking about it.
[00:24:19] Sophie: I think in my classic Gemini brand, I have to say two things. I think for me as a kid, I think I was 12 years old, so this is 1998 when the album "Millennium" dropped by the Backstreet Boys.
I was definitely BSB like, N'sync, I don't know them. So when the world premiere on Total Request Live, TRL, hosted by Carson Daly, top tier journalist- when "I Want It That Way" video premiered in May, I think it was, I lost it. And I did not know that something could get a very involuntee-, you know when you're watching something and you start crying and you're scared that it elicit that kind of response?
So you just keep crying even more. And then the whole time you're like, what is my body doing? That was me consuming a video that was so nonsensical lyrics tha- I didn't even know if they knew what they were talking about, but for whatever reason of just how they branded themselves and they did what they needed to do.
And I cried and I think the most recent one would be the Oprah interview with Meghan and Charlie when Meghan just came with her whole chest, they were these crusty ass Brits were on some eugenics shit and wanted to know what shade my baby was gonna pop out of my vageen in
(clip from interview) And I have huge compassion for that. Hold up. There were several conversations about it. There's a conversation with you? With Harry. About how dark your baby is going to be? Potentially and what that would mean or look like. Ooh.
I mean, you can't make that up. I mean, that was- I was floored. So it's like those two. The whiplash is real guys.
I'm sorry to your listeners, but it was the premiere of Backstreet Boys "I Want it That Way," and the Megh-exit interview,
[00:26:44] Caullen: I almost want to see a Luther anger translator for Meghan in that interview. She's like, these dry chicken cutlets having ass, you know what I'm saying? Her just getting straight up hood on them, on Oprah. That would be lovely
[00:27:00] Sophie: No season, unsanitary, cooking practices old crusty ass. Yeah, it, oh, that'd be great.
[00:27:07] Caullen: She just goes straight Method Man, Redman, "How High?"
(clip from How High) green Jiminy the Cricket suit wearing ass motha fucka.
That's great, I love the binary. I've been thinking since before this episode started, and I still don't know. I don't know what the true answer is, but I can think of one example, which is- a little context in high school.
Rock Bridge High School, Columbia, Missouri go Bruins.
(Sophie emulating air horn)
[00:27:33] Caullen: Every homecoming, that was the most timid DJ horn
[00:27:40] Sophie: it's also like the air horn that has been used many times so they want it to support
[00:27:44] Caullen: exactly. It's the Rudy of air horns. Like it isn't actually making an effect in the game, but let's put him in there for show.
[00:27:52] Sophie: And it's so quiet but Caullen still heard it. Oh yeah, thank you!
[00:27:56] Caullen: So in high school, every homecoming we had a trike race, on little tricycles of teenage, I guess when I was high school, men doing a race around the gym at that homecoming assembly and each person would represent a class.
And so junior year, "300" had come out recently, so I was the representative, and so I was a Black Leonidas riding on the thing. And then my senior year, since that was so iconic, we had a cool video for it, senior year, my friend Clint was Batman because "Batman: the Dark Knight" shoutout Christopher Nolan, came out in that summer.
So he was Dark Knight and I was still Black Leonidas and I trained him to be in the trike race. And so it was- I shot directly the videos for it, and before when people made videos when they were like, whatever whatever, but me being a budding filmmaker made a dope video. And it was super fun.
And I remember overhearing- someone from the True/False film festival in Columbia, Missouri talking about it to someone else, they didn't know I was around. They're like, yeah, it was actually really good. And it had a story and a beginning, middle, end, I was like, look at me. Caullen making shit. It meant a lot because it was like, oh, I can- this is actually, I did this right, this is cool.
Additionally, me and my friends, two Black friends, we made a Lil Wayne freestyle video. So Lil Wayne had a freestyle on Rap City, the Basement, shoutout BET from back in the day,
(clip from Lil Wayne's freestyle)
[00:29:37] Caullen: we knew that freestyle backwards and forwards, cause we loved Lil Wayne at the time. I was Lil Wayne, my friends were Tyga, or whoever the host was and Birdman. We redid that freestyle and filmed it. But in the freestyle we were dissing all the other classes.
(clip from Caullen's freestyle) I'm a new junior and I'm taking names and all you old seniors y'all a bunch of lames.
And so it was super great. Super fun. And that was supposed to play after, at the end of the assembly, as a little gimmy, a little Easter egg type shit, and I believe at the time we were told we would play it after the assembly. And so we do the trike race thing, whatever it all happens.
It's fun. Everyone's loving it. It starts to play and they stop. And I'm like, the fuck is going on. So after the fact, I talked to the administrator who told us it was cool and everything, and I'm like, Hey, we were told one thing it didn't happen, like what's good. Middle-aged white man. Well, middle-aged wealthy white man.
He's like, oh, we ran out of time, oh, I'm sorry, we- and I was like, huh. So when we talk about parody of pop culture things that matter and how to remix it and make it fun, shout out to TikTok, shoutout Reels. And then also what was beneficial to us, especially as young people and how we've used that to our careers, those two videos mattered, but also it was the first time my really pretty Black ass art was suppressed.
Very quite obviously. And there were things I thought about before, even as a teenager, but like, that was the first thing that really happened. I didn't really think about that after the fact. And I'm sure he didn't think of it that way. I'm sure it didn't happen that way, but that is what happened.
And so the normalization of what's appropriate and taking back promises to Black creators, started when I was 17, you know what I'm saying? So then I didn't think about any of that until that question that David asked. So I appreciate that. So that's definitely one of them I can think of.
[00:31:41] Sophie: Oof. One? That was already a whole podcast episode. I mean, I hope we can tie it into this one, that was a lot. And what is a old crusty- cause I know he's crusty- what's his name?
[00:31:54] Caullen: I don't know. I forgot it. He was middle-aged man, he wasn't crusty. And I liked him too. And I was like, ah, it's always the liberal good well-to-do ones you gotta watch out for.
If he was crusty and mean, then I'd be like, of course he did. But I was like, Aw, bro, I thought we were friends.
[00:32:12] Sophie: Oof, there's so many layers to that. I have chills, cause you know, when I was thinking about the title and putting "capital" and how we navigate different mediums or especially media, specifically, this idea that just having the genius or the drive or the creative intellectual property to create something isn't enough when you're navigating these systems.
So for you to encounter that so young. Ooh, I got chills.
[00:32:50] Caullen: D Money. You've had a lot of time to think. What's good?
[00:32:53] David: Yeah. I know. I know.
[00:32:54] Caullen: He's still got nothing
[00:32:55] Sophie: You're so defeated!
[00:32:58] David: No, no, no, not at all. Not all. But I think, I'm going to go with my gut and I think I'm definitely going to hit on the media side. It's not necessarily as tied to me as possible. But then I'm trying to think, and I was like, man when has my voice been suppressed? Now I'm just thinking.
But to be honest, what is going to do with me? And I actually had to Google it real quick, but it was- so there's a "Tempted to Touch" song that came out
[00:33:21] Sophie: Rupee! Shoutout Barbados
[00:33:24] David: And then there was the the remix version with Daddy Yankee. And I think to me- this is 2002, this was the first time I had heard meshed perfectly bilingual content you know what I'm saying? I think I heard it in my world or whatever, but as for music and stuff, other than reggaeton, I which, but then they try to speak English and, you know they're just trying to speak English.
So you feel what I'm saying? So I think it was the first piece of media that I had really heard like that I was like, oh shit, this is what we're going to be doing. And then I would play it and some of my friends couldn't understand it. So it low key made me feel cooler, you know what I'm saying?
So I'm gonna go with that. It's 2002 David, you know? But I kinda- cause then, looking at the way that that music has transcended and reggaeton is still around. But the impact that it's had in multiple languages I think has been fantastic. But I think then with that I'd listen to music and stuff, but definitely want to keep us centered with independent media.
And I think, Caullen, to your point, and also Sophie yours, I think your second one with Oprah, had that interview been done with anybody else, and thinking of the platform that Oprah has created, such as platforms that we're trying to create, but the money- to the other point of Oprah not, well, I dunno, we can challenge that, but Oprah has a potential where they're not going to get stomped by Caullen, but maybe they will. 17 year old Caullen I'm referring to and so what does that do for who's around the space? Or like what impact that has on that interview?
I don't know, just thinking about that from a creator's creative standpoint. But thank you guys for indulging me in our check-in.
[00:35:06] Sophie: That was a great question
[00:35:08] David: Yeah. Well,
[00:35:09] Caullen: Now you got me thinking about Oprah and race and class, but also, man, ah, man so many issues!
[00:35:15] Sophie: Shut the fuck up, I was going there too!
[00:35:18] Caullen: With Oprah, white women love Oprah. So it's not even about how much money she's worth. It's like white women love Ophrah, so she's going to be able to get away with more shit. You know what I'm saying?
[00:35:25] David: Protect her at all costs
[00:35:25] Sophie: but she's on her Tyler Perry shit where they select when they want to shuck and jive for their audiences, because Oprah wouldn't have had that energy for the Megh-xit interview, if she wasn't trying to defer to a certain audience and get the scoop. Cause that was a very hot ticket. Meghan and Harry shopping their story around, every outlet wanted that, but for it to go to her, it was a conquest. So miss me with all that. But it.was still good TV.
[00:35:57] David: I know we've talked about the development of technology and its influence in various forms and scopes. But I think right now, if we center digital age, looking at how long Facebook's been around, YouTube's been around ,things that might help us get a little more understanding, right.
Cause I was having fun even in preparation for these type of events. Just doing a little research, like, all right, damn, I'm not that much older than Facebook. What does that look like? And what is the effects? I think one thing we're talking about Caullen, with that check-in question was like, younger folk might not think of that question.
They might go directly to digital history right now. They start thinking of media as media. They'll be like, oh no digital history, this meme, this vine, things of that nature that the manner of which it's been consumed has also been different. Anyone have thoughts on how we got here? Yeah, go ahead.
[00:36:56] Caullen: Yeah. I mean, ah, yeah, media and digital history are so fascinating to me for all the reasons, but there can be lots of things said, but when I think about it, I think of invention of the internet, or at least when it's somewhat coming to a be in the late 90s.
It was also the same time as 24 hour news cycle was a thing. Now we're used to push notifications at any hour that night, and it's normal to turn on anything and get some kind of news. But that wasn't always a thing. And that new cycle, 24 hour news cycle started on cable television, which not everyone had even in the late 90s.
So that was a kind of new thing. Internet was still like figuring out what the fuck this actual thing was. Early 00s, facebook becomes a thing. Obviously my best friends are also a thing, but it's not an every day thing we use all the time. When I was in high school, that's when YouTube was becoming big.
And I didn't know that, till recently that YouTube started out of the "nipple gate" with Janet Jackson at the Superbowl- which is a different podcast episode, we can dissect that entire event- because people wanted to see it. And so it was the most searched thing on YouTube when it was becoming popular. But YouTube was the first really advent of people being able to make their own content and put it out and upload it for free, and at the time not having ads, and have anyone see it in the world. In the world.
But internet access, of course, which is again, another podcast episode- which is beautiful in a lot of ways, because before that you only had these big ass networks. This is also during/ a little after Napster, a de-centralization of the music industry. These are kind of happening at the same time, which again is good that people can get their art and stuff out there.
But also, anyone can do this. Anyone can build an audience who has the tools to do so, and we can get into how that gets harrowing. And that's the early 00s. And if you keep moving forward, Instagram pops up, Twitter pops up, especially for journalism and getting news at a rapid pace, but also that reporting could be from anybody. Again, which is good and bad.
It gets to the teens and now I'll just fast forward a lot. I'm skipping a lot, but TikTok, Instagram and Vine at one point in time, rest in peace, rest in power, shout out Vine- are the things now. And we're speaking about this as all millennials, and so if we had someone on here who's 10 years younger than us, they'd probably have a different outlook on this and how they use it and how they can navigate it.
So I wanted to center on- we're speaking from our experience right now, and so we're always going to be limited. I think, especially in this. Because I think there's a lot of, I think TikTok is a very interesting thing to dissect, but I'm just not apt to do that, but we're not skipping over that.
We're just talking from our experience, but that history is super important. It's interesting in looking at how we've used it as people, but all sorts of world events and how they've been reported and how they've been different. I wrote about this in Chi DNA academic paper, but with Mike Brown, the police that killed Mike Brown, no one saw that, it wasn't videotaped at all.
But it was reported very fast via Twitter. And this wasn't the first time the state has killed a Black man, but without that stuff reporting so quickly, we may not have had uprising of Ferguson like we did. Without COVID and seeing this vicious killing of George Floyd in 2020, we may not have had, I believe, we would not have had the uprise that we had in 2020. So when we think about digital history and where we come into it and how we use it now and before, and thinking about how we were children looking at these things, I think it's important to also layer with what was happening in the country and the globe, how different systemic oppression or whatever was affecting certain groups at that time.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of layers there, so we can't just put anything in a vacuum. So it's important to look at "TikTok is new." Cool, what else is happening in the world? What is normalized in the world at the time, and how do we layer all those things together and intercept. And then look that Venn diagram in the middle and see what we can really get to in that moment.
[00:40:48] David: Yeah. Sophie, anything you'd add or challenge?
[00:40:52] Caullen: Challenge me! Let's go.
[00:40:53] Sophie: I mean, trying to follow Caullen's tangents that are equally weighty off-shoots and it's like, and these 10 journal articles in there, but what was interesting is you were kind of, even though it's a very swift chronologic or swiff breakdown of time or history of media, as you were talking, I was thinking of how much pop culture is really what elevated or even certain apps that blew up because of pop culture. You're talking about YouTube with nipplegate and Janet Jackson at the Superbowl.
And we're talking about TikTok that wouldn't have blown up if we weren't all stuck at our homes, learning how to dance again. Well, I guess people who didn't know how to dance before, and we're talking about- I'm thinking about Napster. That was really- Napster, Limewire, that whole era, and you know, what was it Lars from Metallica versus
[00:41:59] Caullen: oh, Metallica went crazy. They hated Napster.
[00:42:02] Sophie: So I just think how pop culture is so intertwined with technology and media and usually what, something that would have been- and in also, when it blows up, then you're just thinking about the profit, and the capital, the stake they now have in creating and pushing for certain narratives. And just thinking Facebook back in the day, like, what was it?
2006? I created my first account. I'm like, what the fuck is this? It's like, oh, you just stalk people you had a crush on in high school? I think I was 19 when I got my first cell phone. So as far as like my relationship with technology, and being in the zeitgeist outside of what TRL and Rap City, and 106 & Park showed me, I didn't, I kind of, I feel like I was fumbling. But then for Facebook to now be literally controlling- like data mining, and doing all these things and helping us steal elections and doing some light treason. It's like, what the fuck?
So that's all I was thinking as Caullen was trying to flush all that out. Just pop culture intertwined with media historically, and it's just holy shit, we lived through some things, okay.
[00:43:22] Caullen: And Sophie, you also mentioned previous to this recording, about all of that and the co-optation and plagiarism of Black culture, especially with TikTok and other things. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Sophie is Black and Haitian, if y'all didn't know. I think that matters. It's BrownTown, I think it matters.
[00:43:43] Sophie: Thank you for the Haitian piece, because
[00:43:45] Caullen: yeah, culture, ethnicity,
(speaking Haitian)
[00:43:48] Sophie: no, I'm just saying, if there's any Haitians up in this piece, what's up?! We here, we here. But yeah, I think- and it's such a good segueway, cause when we're talking about pop culture, Black culture is pop culture. And so when we moved into this space of, so it starts off with this technology booming, this rapid sharing.
And we're being, we're connecting globally at paces that were unheard of in the late 90s, in the nineties, or a time before. And now when we see that technology is here to stay and people are creating content, starting businesses, becoming businesses, right, they are the brand. And this rate of consumption has skyrocketed to a level that I don't think we would even dream of in the early 00s.
And so as Black culture continues to be pop culture, now people with more capital and that can you know, the algorithm is advantageous to them, all they're doing is perpetuating Black speak, virtual blackface, you're talking about all the most- our dances, the most viral TikTokers who are making 6, 7, 8 figures got viral because they were doing something off of a Black content creator, who you wouldn't have known their name had there not been Black Twitte investigating and calling certain things out.
So I think that it's now at this period where- not period, it's now at this, at a level where you can't regulate it. We know like plagiarizing and stealing of intellectual property is happening, but it's not like you're writing, there's no structure or methodology as you would have, like in grad school.
Or where you're citing things or where there's things to hold you accountable to that, where there's no buy-in for these creators, because listen, if this is what's keeping, if this is what's going to get me to get a million followers or to get these brand deals or whatever, they don't really care who they're stepping on. In all the ways that we see in our daily lives, the erasure of Black culture, but also using it to launch whatever XYZ, and someone's going to call it a genius and original, it's happening at this rate on social media that, it's a little scary. Because how can we have accountability and how can we thwart that? I don't see TikTok having any accountability measures. Yeah, you're going to put, some people are now mentioning the handle of the content creator, but your followers came to see you, they're not going to look further down your long caption to see who the original creator was, they're just going to see you, and you're just going to continue to mask your wealth off the backs of Black genius. So I don't know if that all makes sense, but that's kind of where I was. I see that constantly now that I'm on Instagram more often and certain conversations I have with the little community I've built there. And it's scary to say the least.
One of the conversations that have come out, especially in this TikTok generation and this rapidness in which to create content and all these different things, a lot of people are using generalized work ethic rhetoric that's akin to capitalism. But another reason why I think it's hard to pinpoint coaptation of a lot of different cultures and because I'm Haitian and I can speak to one lens, but I'm sure they're, I mean, not I'm sure, I've seen how they've ripped Indigenous culture and certain narratives and Mexican culture too, but that's in the makeup industry, but we'll talk about that, that's another podcast episode.
But my original point is folks keep saying, well, those kids, they work really hard. But what, like how, when can we say, yeah, both things can be true- they can work really hard and it must, and I can only imagine the amount of content they have to create at the speed that they have to, that is hard work.
I feel exhausted just putting two episodes a month of my podcast. So I can only imagine daily or weekly, that can take its toll on people. But why can't we also still hold folks accountable for, they would not be where they're at, if not for checking for certain content creators that doesn't have as much visibility or capital and using that to bolster their brand. We can, it doesn't have to take away from their work ethic, but we can also say, you're a whole biter and you shouldn't be here.
[00:49:02] Caullen: I'm thinking about how often the meritocracy argument or the hardwork argument attempts to put aside any other wrongdoing? There's that for anyone who's is knowingly or unknowingly borrowing something from a different culture or oppressed group and calling it their own. And working hard to do that and putting in the hours, which they shouldn't have to do in order to make ends meet and all that.
And that doesn't excuse what you did, and folks who may not be as politically engaged, so to speak, in the traditional ways we think of being politically engaged, cause they're working all the time. And it's like, yeah, but if we have shared struggle and if we can get organized who the actual enemy is, we can work in solidarity against that.
I'm speaking much more broadly now, but I'm just thinking about the meritocracy argument, and how it's so damaging. We're not our enemies here. And I'm thinking back to our previous episode, two-parter episode 76 about surveillance capitalism and how that's in bed with all of this underlined as well.
Cause while this was all happening over 20, 30 years- capital has been in the back and seeing how it plays out, seeing how for them, the peasants are using these things and seeing how we can mine, how they can mine the information in order to make a buck. And one thing I've started thinking about more so in the past couple of years, but before I was always saying, oh yeah, social media is a tool and whatever the pros and cons of social interaction and empire and inequality whatever that exists in the real world is existing online as well.
Which makes me think a little bit about what you just mentioned a little bit ago, Sophie, about Black culture being co-opted like always, and now it's representing itself online digital spaces. Which is true, but they are using the algorithm intentionally to mine that for clicks and the more clicks and views for money.
So it's not just happening naturally as it would, cause people are doing that, another example. But they're seeing what's popular and not giving a fuck on the damages of it, and using it for clickbait and then ultimately for capital. So it's reengineering how the inequalities of the IRL world and the digital world. And engineering it in a way that it heightens so they can make capital.
And we see that with the election being "stolen" in 2016, as well as insurrection and all that, and they're like, how'd the insurrection happen? And it's like, motherfucker, we, I could have told you that five years ago, like THEY told you, like, what?! "We need a commission." I was like, we told you this was going to happen.
And this is maybe unpopular, ooh, how do I- so I'm not saying we shouldn't have had a 9/11 commission,
[00:51:56] Sophie: mhm
[00:51:56] Caullen: But the US has been in the Middle East for centuries, decades?
[00:52:03] Sophie: Come on, get it..
[00:52:05] Caullen: The empire has been there taking resources, killing women and children, doing all these awful things. Funding people we now terrorists. David's heard this a million times. And so when a group of people who are angry at the West, for reasons that may be bastardized and twisted, attack, not just, "oh, they attacked her democracy", no they attacked the World Trade Center. The center for global trade, the center for engineering capital and whiteness in a concentrated way to benefit all these atrocities. They attack that place. Agian, I'm not- when I was 10 or 11, I was surprised I didn't know what the fuck that was. But now I'm like, yeah, of course they did that. I wouldn't have done that, but I would also be upset if y'all keep killing #### and my cousins and shit, and I might feel some type of way. And we keep doing the same thing and we got in a 20 year war for that.
So I think of that, I think of the insurrection commission now. And it's like, y'all, not only do we tell you that was going to happen, but they told you, and they told everybody via the socials. Y'all were surveilling all of this shit, you're looking at all the shit we say and do. They said, I'm going to be here, we're gonna take it back, they told you exactly what they were going to do.
And then folks were like, oh, where were the police? I'm like, they are the police, fuck you talk about?!
[00:53:32] Sophie: You didn't see them escorting them nicely and gently down the Capitol stairs?
[00:53:38] Caullen: I hope that wasn't too tangential, but I just- the fact that all this is engineered intentionally by folks, that we don't have the power over doing that, I think it's important to name in that. And then also for us all using social media and putting digital content out there, we have to work in that system to get views and stuff on it. And obviously if it had been successful, there'd be varied degrees in that, and it can be used for great ways of getting your content out, again our work out.
And I love that, and as you know, people can comment in real time. There's lots of beautiful ways about how social media can be engineered into ways that can spark uprising against these systems, ie George Floyd, ie Mike Brown, ie Occupy to a certain extent, the Iraq war, anti-war protests in general.
I'm not trying to poopoo social media, obviously we're using it and we can see beautiful things from it. But it's whatever's making money. And then in 2020, it's like, oh, Black people are popular, let's make Black creators the top of our algorithm, which is like, okay, I want to use this, cool, but also, fuck y'all. Y'all just doing it to make money, but I want to get the word out.
[00:54:44] Sophie: Also Black people are popular, but it's just so funny to see how in post summer 2020 people are like, oh, Black people are human, interesting! And seeing the big rebranding and pivoting in media and large brands.
But I think to your point, you've made so many points, but when you kept saying, you're not poopooing on social media, there's beauty and there's destruction, but I think as you said earlier, it's a manifestation of socio politics and everyday life, so of course it's going to have all those different truths. And how do we exist and negotiate in those tensions sometimes that cancel each other out?
How can we justify our place in that? When, in a way, we are trying to build our followers and build our brands and take up more space. So I think that's what I wrestle with, or I have been wrestling with since I created my own space. And I would love to know, it's been a long time since you guys recorded, if during that time of reflection, is this one of the things that both of you would even think of, of your relation to media, but also with all these other facets of it and how do you negotiate it and, how do you negotiate that space and not go mad, but also engaging in a system that creates so much destruction as you already laid out so eloquently, Caullen?
[00:56:36] David: Yeah, man, I think everything happens in time, sometimes so poetically. And referring to our time off, so to speak, I think some of the energies that when seeing and hearing the pitfalls of the digital age or what have you, to me it's been independent media and it's my understanding of that.
So I think something to center, it would be the Chicago Independent Media Alliance that Soapbox is a part of. Which is literally a group, if I'm not mistaken, of 69 different independent media outlets around the Chicagoland area. And it was made with one sole purpose
[00:57:17] Sophie: That's amazing
[00:57:18] David: to be able to accumulate funds in a way that was faster, easier, and could be more equitably distributed amongst a group of folks. And so, interestingly enough we're independent media just to make, just to try to get a buck because also, what are we challenging? What are we fighting? And not necessarily fighting, but it's to your point, we're trying to get followers.
I do think one of the things to center is where we come from and by we, I mean Bourbon 'n BrownTown specifically, just like your own podcast, various other independent medias. What is the reasoning for being? And I think with Soapbox being a nonprofit, being an organization that's goal is to create media intending with movement and organizing and having ways in which to challenge. Because I think one thing I was gonna name, Sophie, I think you have an opportunity through this Bachelor, which I've- and to be honest I don't think I've ever really seen. I know enough about it, where I'm- I mean, I guess now I know most than ever before, so thank you.
[00:58:21] Caullen: Educate
[00:58:22] David: Understood that it was this dude gets to have sex with all these women and then pick one at the end. That's what I understood and I'm like, this is horrible, why would this be a show? But people eat it up.
Why did I mention that? Because I was trying to bring it back to ways in which we can then influence. And you're using this thing that The Bachelor, maybe someone comes and is like, oh, I love The Bachelor, you watching it. And you're,
[00:58:49] Sophie: Haha, we're talking about intersectionality and critical race theory
[00:58:54] Caullen: It's a trap!
[00:58:55] David: But their entry point was The Bachelor, you know what I'm saying?
And so that's the thing with media and all the things we do outside of the podcast. The podcast is super cool cause it's our opportunity as creators to have a moment, a very individualistic moment which is a podcast recording, and these aren't interviews, these are conversations we're just hanging out. But that in itself can sometimes be rare. Cause oftentimes some podcasts are scripted as fuck, or they'll have all these ins and outs and edits. The other day I was listening to a productivity podcast, and my man has fucking 18 commercials in his fucking podcast.
So by minute 10, I'm done, I'm not hearing your shit. But my man has, I don't know, hundreds of episodes. And so it's looking at the internal nucleus of where things come from as independent media whether that's journalistic, whether that's just entertainment sake.
I don't know. And so to me to answer your question a little bit more succinctly, Sophie, BNB to me is an opportunity and has always been an opportunity for myself to learn as a human being, but also to be able to provide a space for folks to bless the mic. You know what I'm saying?
And I think it's always fun because a lot of times we've had situation where like, oh, I've never been on a podcast. And I also hadn't realized how long and how prevalent and how strong podcasts are now. And so it's me and my own closed little bubble here, but it's that, and wherever we're able to have opportunities for folks to then jump in. And it's something that I've been sitting with more, to then toss it to Caullen. This shit lives, these are archive.
[01:00:38] Caullen: Forever!
[01:00:39] David: When I was making them I was like, cool. And I'll hear David from episode one, two or three, and I'd be like, damn, he was just nervous and shit. And then I'd be listening to David 20, 25 I was like, boy, what are you doing? But regardless, the concept of these things are existing. And I think some of it is wonderful in the fact it's like, cool, I can hear myself. On a person level I'll be like, okay, cool, I've developed, my thoughts are different. But also the way in which then we're entertaining or we're working with one another continues to develop. And I think our BNB circle, as an example, while it may not have blown up like Sophie we've been blessed creating circles, and spaces, which to your point, like you, they're meaningful and I think that's why we've continued to do Bourbon 'n BrownTown. Cause we could have stopped, not come back 2022, but I think we've also grown as creators of media, but also just exciting. And we have, not to brag, but the year kind of plotted out. We have a bunch of shit, we've been wanting to talk to a bunch of people and get people on this stuff. And some people have asked, yo, what's good, where are we at, it's April. I'm like, calm down, it's okay, we're here. And so there's also that side which we're excited because of that relationship that we're able to build and doing my best to not involve my ego more so, just like this is my community of people and they care about me as I care about them.
[01:01:55] Caullen: That was beautiful, David, and I appreciate that.
[01:01:57] Sophie: It was, it was
[01:01:59] Caullen: I was just thinking that you missed something earlier about the fact this lives as long as we lead it. But it's on the internet, so it lives on forever.
I found a whole rant to- someone's like, if I ever run for office, they're gonna be like, Caullen's an Osama sympathize. I'm like, no no it's not what I meant!
[01:02:15] David: Let's get a warning on here.
[01:02:17] Caullen: And I think that's why I liked doing this, cause we can get really in the weave and these really weird nuanced things and insert media clips and stuff here and there. And it just feels good. I think for me, all the things you've said about learning, especially talking to dope guests, like Sophie and stuff.
But it's learning and then figuring things out as you're talking feels good and having the snaps is fire with certain things. And I think, not to toot our horns in this conversation, but as podcasts have blown up, which again is like other digital platforms we talked about, which is like, oh, that's awesome, everyday folks can make media and make content and get better at their craft and put worthwhile stories and narratives out there that are important. And also people can do horribly racist, sexist stuff and put it out there as well. But I think we have a conversation based podcast, which I appreciate and I like for all the reasons we just named, as David named, but, Sophie's a double master's, does this work, David, you and I organize via Soapbox and via our own selves. I have a master's of sociology, David's a creative, we're responsible and kind of have accountability to certain things we've learned, and we know to be true that we're bringing into this. And other folks have podcasts and it's like, talk shit out of a void or out of nowhere, and they get deals on Spotify for millions of dollars. And so where's the line between having like, Hey, is what you're doing good? And the line between not wanting to, for lack of a better phrase, police folks having access to making negative voices heard. And so that's what I've always thought about, especially the past couple months, but year, especially. And then I think I'm just seeing it more by dudes with podcasts being shitty.
I'm like, fuck, I hope we're not doing that. And I don't think we are, but also, I don't think they don't think they are either. So it's like, yeah, just this idea of, I hate saying I have a podcast and I tend to not, or try not to, or bring it in if it makes sense in some other way, but being like, oh, this is my podcasts, makes me feel like a fucking tool. But it's like, no, I think what we're doing is good and beautiful.
I'll try to name episodes that makes sense to who I'm talking to and stuff. I just love what we do in this space. And Soapbox in general, of course, and I just, I don't know, I just think it's important. I think what Sophie's doing is important. I think this stuff is good and accessible. That's one of the keys
[01:05:00] Sophie: Being accessible, I feel like the heart- the ethos, I think of all our, both of our respective podcasts is this, we thrive off connection. And so whether it's relying on our lived experiences or this idea of Black feminist thought theory in the flesh, we don't have- our intellect and elitistism in the white supremacy idea of knowledge and education does not have to be tied to just that, since they've spent so much time and resources, barring people that look like us from those institutions.
So I think it's great when we can flex on people intellectually, ontologically, or all the things. Right. But I think the heart of both of our, what I hope could create movements is this idea of connection. Because I feel like my podcast, besides the ethos of my podcast being "hide the medicine", like you're trying to give medicine to your pet, like hide the medicine in peanut butter.
It's a space for me to be really raw and it's always in the non pop culture related episodes that I get the most feedback. And so what does just literally your physical body and the words that come out of your mouth, how that connects with people. I've had an episode where I talked to my followers of my borderline personality disorder diagnosis, and walking them through what it's been like when I heard that diagnosis and researching and understanding how trauma lives with you. And in the Haitian community, what?? I would be told, pray the devil away and you're lying, or you're making this- and to have this space, this safe space that I've created with a paywall to talk through tensions and things that- I don't know if I would have had the courage to do that if I didn't have my podcast, but then getting the feedback of people like, oh, I have BPD too, and dah, dah, dah, and hearing it from you just allowed me to be a lot kinder to myself and all these different things. Or I had an episode about coming out later in life. So, 35 finally sharing that and cried on that episode. I told y'all it's one take, they get what comes up, and what came up- and you heard and you saw me- or you could hear me short-circuiting in real time, cause I was like, oh god, I'm crying. Oh no, no, no I'm crying. And then I'm crying more cause I'm realizing I'm crying.
[01:07:51] David: And no one else is in the room, too. So you know you're talking to people, but no one is there
[01:07:58] Caullen: yeahhh.
[01:07:58] Sophie: Everyone's listening, I'm crying, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm crying, guys. Okay, okay guys, I'm sorry. And then it's *sobbing* five minutes of that. And it allows people to be more vulnerable. It allows people to feel like, okay, it's safe to not always put on airs. It's okay to fumble in my learning.
I don't know what I don't know. So it's okay to defer to someone who's an expert. There's just so many things that come up when I think of the beauty of my space, juxtaposed against all the problematic stuff that I deal with that honestly inspires me to keep coming back and creating episodes.
So this idea of connection and expanding someone's lens of what humanity looks like, what people are capable of, all that stuff. And, with your point, Caullen, about dudes with podcasts, don't let the embalmed mozzarella that is Joe Rogan, make you have imposter syndrome.
Because I also feel like the type of connection that I think physically what you both embodied being, you're a second generation immigrant, right, David? You were born in the states?
[01:09:22] David: No, first
[01:09:22] Sophie: You're a first generation?
[01:09:23] David: I was born, but my parents weren't, so yeah, I'm first gen.
[01:09:27] Sophie: So oh, right right right, so first generation and your culture and all the things that you bring up and you, Caullen, as a Black man, there's just so many things I think the way that you guys shatter- not stereotypes, that's kind of pedantic and reductive- but I don't know, I think you guys are illuminating different ways in shedding light on humanity that I think media tends to not promote in a respectful, a dignifying way. So I don't know, kind of lost my words at the end there, but.
[01:10:10] David: Nah, we feel you. And I think our listeners definitely understand what's going on. Cause they they've been listening to us rant. I had a motherfucker be like, "Hey, I know you." And I was like, "damn, really, you do?" He's like, "yeah, I was listening to one of your episodes." I'm like, fuck, okay. But I mean, and then on that note I do appreciate that and-
[01:10:25] Sophie: Damn, connection, beautiful
[01:10:26] David: I mean, but I think it's that. And I think sometimes it's, Caullen, to your point, one of the things that I do is, I'll tell people that my non-profit has a podcast. I just don't tell them that I'm on it.
[01:10:37] Caullen: Ooh. I like that. Imma do that
[01:10:38] David: oh you like podcasts? Yeah, cool, oh actually, Soapbox they run podcasts and so we have different episodes blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I do always pitch. And I think it's interesting, cause I
[01:10:47] Sophie: That's smart
[01:10:47] David: going back to the independent media, and so how do we- we are brands, but also we represent a brand, at least Caullen and I do. Sophie, you are your brand, you know what I'm saying? So there's levels to that.
And I think that's its own podcast episode, I don't think we need to delve too much into that. But I think once we start representing, so it's always interesting because to me, I'm always feeling like I'm repping Soapbox. That's it. Because at this point in time also Soapbox has had the opportunity to be growing and evolving and developing for the last five years, at least on paper paper, but even more-
And so it's time. And that's something that with old motivational fucking Instagram shit that I be seeing motherfuckers be giving out, it's like patients. I'm like, all right, I hear you, okay, that one makes sense. And I guess all the other ones do too, but I'm just being a fucking Aquarius about it.
But on that note, I think one of the things that I did want to touch on, Sophie, and I think is important because coming into this game, at least for myself, well, no Caullen too, we weren't radio people. We weren't poised to this. I know, Caullen, you talked about, or Sophie you were mentioning things that revolve around us that make us a good fit for this.
But I think on that, it's also this education of understanding the power of media, the way it can be managed, media literacy and then it's connection to, and understanding privilege, power, and how all of that, whether we want to believe it or not, are all really really tied together.
And sometimes for some folks it's really difficult to break apart and understanding. I think Caullen that's where your point comes in, thinking about dudes who have podcasts. Yeah, I'm like, I hear it, why is that the case? But then we also have, Sophie who's killing us in numbers.
We're at where we're at. Sophie, you're a perfect example. No, but I think this works to my point of whether or not people are aware of it. I think we enact media literacy each in our way, and to me, it's been having the opportunity to have done workshops and continue to challenge the idea of my role as a media creator and in that power and privilege that I have as a media creator, cause low key, we can go in and be like, you know what, scratch everything Sophie said, let's use the last five minutes. And then that's still a power we have, not to say we're going to do that.
[01:13:18] Caullen: Or are we?
[01:13:19] Sophie: There's some points where I was fumbling over words, you can cut
[01:13:23] David: I'm so dead
[01:13:24] Caullen: That's the best stuff, it's raw.
[01:13:26] David: But Caullen is there anything that you would add to that concept of, we advocate or include media literacy into our work, whether that's through Soapbox, but also, I do feel like other independent media outlets do it without even maybe recognizing it.
[01:13:39] Caullen: Totally. I think folk, all media is propaganda, let's just say it. I think propaganda has a dirty connotation to it because of history and what have you.
[01:13:50] David: Communists!
[01:13:50] Caullen: But it's all propaganda. We think propaganda-
[01:13:53] Sophie: Third reich!
[01:13:54] Caullen: yeah, third reich, Nazism. I was gonna say shout out, that's seems not the thing to say, but looking at Joseph Goebbels and the way he used film and images to make stunning visually, no, stunning visual propaganda of what this empire looks like.
If you had no context, or didn't know what we were looking at you, oh, it's like people are very angler. People are lining up in angler lines. It's that kind of military force, this man who has power in the way we orchestrate the frame. We look at Hitler walking in a certain way.
It's constructed in a certain way to make you think this man is powerful and you should believe what he says. Obviously you shouldn't do that, but that's propaganda. And in the traditional way of what we think of propaganda being bad. Yes. You know what else is propaganda? Colgate commercials saying, Hey, buy this toothpaste cause it'll make your teeth white. They're not the same. I think we can say that, but they're both propaganda. One has fluoride in it. One does not, but they're both propaganda and that's okay. We need it critique it on another level, but they're both propaganda. And so David and I did a presentation last summer, speaking on the Venn diagram of the principles of media literacy, and how- as we've talked about the whole episode- we live in the digital age, we take in information not just by reading books, but by seeing tweets and seeing Instagram posts and seeing corporate media, independent media, what have you give all these messages all the time. So we need to learn how to decode that, just as a viewer to stay sane, but also to understand how power, oppression, and privilege is used in Nazi propaganda, as well as the Colgate commercials and everything in between.
A quote I really like as far as thinking about media literacy, it's from the National Priority for a Changing World, but they write, "the convergence of media and technology as a global culture and changing the way we learn about the world and challenging the very foundations of education no longer is enough to be able to read the printed word; children, youth, and adults, too, need the ability to both critically interpret the powerful images of a multimedia culture and express themselves in multiple media forms."
If you have any social media accounts, if you're using it in any capacity beyond DMing your friends and stuff, you're expressing yourself through multiple media forms, you might not be trying to make money from it, you might not be trying to do anything with it, you're just talking to friends, doing stuff, or you're posting words, pictures, anything- you're expressing yourself through multiple media forms, right?
You're using the same tools they are. So I think that's important to note that there are agency and power in that. It's not as the power of CNN or whatever, but we're all kind of doing it on very different levels. With the venn diagram piece I mentioned earlier, just media literacy in general, some of the five, four concepts just to be real quick, all media is constructed. Media messages are constructed using creative language with its own rules, different people experience the same media differently. Media has embedded values and points of view, and most media messages are organized to gain profit and or power, and those can be different or the same.
So that's just media literacy on its own. If we see something, we need to ask, who created this message? What techniques are used to attract your attention? How might different folks understand this differently? With lifestyle values, points-of-view, whatever are embedded in this and why was the message sent, what was the purpose of it?
You can ask that really about anything. And so taking now how to interpret media in any level and then putting a power, oppression, and privilege model on it. Some kind of, even, shallow analysis on systemic oppression. Power + prejudice = an -ism. There's not reverse racism.
It's always racism. And you can get deeper into that.
[01:17:49] Sophie: Spoiler alert
[01:17:51] Caullen: It's always racism. The levels of systemic oppression can be a war, on a macro level. It can be interpersonal. There's always levels to it. Everything is social, everything's political. When something is touted as normative or objective or it's normal, it's- nothing is.
So who has power in that? Putting these two concepts together in that Venn diagram, in the middle is where we really need to look at when we think about media. And so I think that's just something important to think about as we move through the world. Obviously you don't look at every single thing you see like that, but when something presents itself as normative or objective or whatever, it's like, it's not.
[01:18:29] David: Probably not
[01:18:30] Caullen: And that's okay. But we have to have the thinking caps on, really all the time. There's no example of a space where we can shed all of that. Obviously, I don't want you to tire yourself out. Thinking all the time is super hard, but just knowing that it's embedded in everything that we do.
[01:18:50] Sophie: I don't know if you both feel this way post 2020 and not even summer, I look at the way that COVID and the pandemic has truly, for me, it's decimated any hope I felt for the evolution of our species. And I also think the way that it bastardized and- not bastardized- demolished any type of the systems that I think we were engaging in and trying to have, connect to any kind of resolution or moving away from the status quo. I think the pandemic just kind of created a power vacuum to where we're going to be in this hellscape for a generation or two, of that doesn't want people to think critically. It doesn't- I think the current landscape that we're in doesn't thrive and works- and is very intentional and creating propaganda to thwart critical thinking.
And so- I just love how you succinctly synthesized media literacy, cause that's just something I've- I mean, I made my own little niche of sociology and pop culture, so- and maybe there should have been a merging of media literacy and what I studied, but I haven't heard it in that way.
And it just made me think of, oh wow, that's all good and well, but these last two years, going on three years, I don't see how we can have a morsel of this, or I feel like I'm working out of feigned integrity, or the illusion of things like character and critical thinking. So I feel like I have to constantly be thinking about those things, lest I defer to status quo and that won't be good.
[01:20:58] David: But I think that's, I think that's inherently-
[01:21:01] Sophie: Sorry! So depressing! That was really dark. I'm talking to my therapist on Friday.
[01:21:07] David: No, I'm so dead. No, but I think to one point- I hear you in the inability of our species to continue to evolve post 2020
[01:21:20] Sophie: minus the Soapbox followers, BNB, and UEL. Our followers are sane
[01:21:26] Caullen: Y'all are good. Y'all are smart.
[01:21:28] Sophie: It's everyone else. You see, I'm trying to save this, David.
[01:21:30] David: I don't want to mention- yeah, no, I'm so dead. And I don't want to mention it, but it was interesting cause I was listening to one of these motherfuckers, it was a white dude, comedian type shit. But he's aggressive sometimes, but he'll show up on my feed. And he was talking about how TikTok specifically- it's interesting, and this is something that he disagrees with, but TikTok he says it's so- I don't feel like it's important to quote him.
The thing that I'm trying to sit on is, there was an instance that I heard of, what is it that these algorithms are awarding? And so it's to your point, they're not awarding critical thought, they're awarding stupid dance moves, they're awarding people busting their shit on crates, they're awarding-
[01:22:10] Sophie: I mean, hey, they ain't stupid, now.
[01:22:14] Caullen: Get 'em!
[01:22:16] David: Okay, how do I put this? But, we don't, you know what I'm saying- and to Caullen's point, I've had a wonderful opportunity using technology to the point of I'm looking up old speeches and stuff, but realistically, if you put in a James Baldwin 30 second clip next to people busting their shit on crates clip. That crates clip probably has a hundred times more views and likes and impressions and comments and shit.
And so I think it's to a point it's like, whoa, that is a dark hole there, where that's what's being awarded and that's what our people are told to do. And if you can get famous off doing this one dumb shit, let's do it. My brother, my little brother, he's 10 years old and he's obsessed with YouTube and he's obsessed with YouTube of people watching other people do shit.
That's what he's watching. He's watching other people play video games. He's watching other people watch other videos, but that's what he's entertained with. And why- and I don't know why. And I'm curious cause we're going down the, our children
[01:23:16] Sophie: We're going into existential planes, okay.
[01:23:19] David: Oh my goodness. But, you're right, we're not- the system isn't meant to reward critical thought or critical dialogue. And it's more of a struggle to get people to click on something like Bourbon 'n BrownTown in comparison to- and I want to use Vine, I'm so left behind, I'm so sorry. But you know what I'm saying, to other things. And so, I don't know, then we go into one of the struggles with independent media, which is like, it's only talking to a bubble and then it gets stuck in that bubble, and then they don't hear anything else. It's an interesting conversation that I don't, clearly, know enough about, but it leads me to question what that landscape is going to be looking like for the next 5 to 10 years as technology continues to develop.
Just questions for me at this point. But I'm all about that existential dread, bro. So don't worry about it.
[01:24:16] Caullen: I'm calling out the existential dread
[01:24:19] Sophie: but not to stick- and followers, I do have a therapist I meet with weekly. I am okay. This is not a cry for help. But I think- not to dwell or stay in that extensional abyss or pit or whatever, even if it's furnished in West Elm furniture, but I think that there needs to be this proximity to that, or keep it tucked away to where it doesn't derail you from moving forward and continuing to put out your truth and your content. But also keeping it close as that sobering reminder to, I guess, feign integrity till it feels real in this simulation that we call oppression- in a simulation of oppression.
Because I think it is tough when we start to reduce it to followers and numbers and who's blowing up and who's not? And how can we, what are we doing wrong? And how can we build our engagement? And we even reduce our own intellect and our existence to those things. Constantly remembering the functionality of oppression and all the -isms, it doesn't reward this. So in a way, maybe it's a good thing that we can't figure it out, cause I think once that oppression or the formula of that starts to make sense, then I think that's when we're really in trouble. But I also think that, yeah, it should be used as a sober reminder to keep us in check to continue doing what we do.
And use our space, whatever space we have to call it out. Because I think it's so interesting, what sticks with my followers that they'll DM me like, oh gosh, I never thought of it that way. And I'm just like, wait, what?
[01:26:22] Caullen: Of course
[01:26:22] Sophie: trying to break- and I love the visual- I can't remember when you said it, Caullen, but this visual of you're at a party, you got there on time, it's eight o'clock and now everyone's coming in at 11:00 PM and you're tired as hell, and you're like, come on, man. And it's like, wait, I've been here for so long and you're just now here.
It's a little tiring to muster up this labor to get to where you're at, but it's 2022 and having to break down microaggressions to people and things like that.
[01:26:51] Caullen: That analogy I made was around 2020 with the uprisings, right? When everyone was like, oh, police are bad. And I was like, yo, I've been at this party since 5:30, I help set it up and everything, it started at 9. It is now 12:30, I gotta be up in a couple hours. You came to the party now, 2020, I'm glad you're here, but I've been here for hours and I was waiting for y'all and now you want me to dance high energy? You want me to Dougie full energy? I'm tired. I'm tired.
And I feel like it's like that a lot of times, anytime we have an event, people's eyes are opening. And I do mean people generally speaking. There's a lot of non-movement based Black folks who I knew who were like, oh shit. I was like, y'all, No Cop Academy, I told you, where were you then?
So yeah, I think we see that a lot when things happen in the world, especially any kind of media creator, corporate, small, whatever, latch onto and use in a certain way. But I do think- yeah, they benefit off of us not thinking critically, and what's interesting, especially via COVID is the overcorrection on that, where it's like, do you're own research, "wake up people, wake up sheeple" that whole energy, the Info Wars energy.
That's a whole thing too, that use some of our same rhetoric as far as doing your own research and all that. And you should do that about a lot of things, but who are you getting your information from. Things are very important, are they credentialed? Do they know what they're talking about? Are they like fighting stuff? Are they saying, "Hey, this is my lived experience. This might be anecdotal, but here it is. We try to be accountable and honest on this podcast about where we get things from and stuff. And hey, this is kind of shitty, but I'm going to say it and we're going to unpack it from there."
So that's also important too, as far as looking at your media sources and really looking at how they're getting stuff. And or who's paying them. Someone's going to say, "oh, it's CNN, they fact check stuff." Yeah- but who's paying them? And what narrative benefits corporate media? How many little people, I think it's four, four or five families- I don't know, not many families own most of the media conglomerate.
[01:29:09] Sophie: Is it still, is there four? I thought it'd be, it was lesser, it was less than that?
[01:29:13] Caullen: It's not a lot, I can tell you that much.
[01:29:15] Sophie: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
[01:29:16] Caullen: Sometimes it's funny when I'll say certain things about corporate media and having to really dig through things, and I'll hear that same rhetoric from the far right being like, "ah, mass corporate corporate media." I'm like, so the words are right, but I know we mean different things.
Before we checked out I wanted to mention that, as far as who you're getting your sources from is super important as well. We could be using the same rhetoric, but let's look at the power, oppression, privilege model, as well as credentialed folks who are telling you certain things and making certain entertainments- and that goes from pop culture to French new wave films you're watching. I don't know.
[01:29:53] Sophie: Yeaa-yay, shout out to French new wave films.
(snaps)
[01:29:58] David: I mean, that just makes me think of- for y'all who still don't know, I know most of our listeners do, but I had a conversation with a homie of mine, and I was like, "you know Jeff Bezos owns the Washington post?" "what do you mean?" I was like, "I mean he owns it." He's like, "oh,"- cause he'll especially- when in this age of us challenging each other and being like, no, what are your source?
Ugh, not to go on a giant tangent, but I talked with film people in the film world. And we were talking about politics in Chicago
[01:30:26] Sophie: Oh, THOSE people?
[01:30:27] David: Which to, mind you, this motherfucker, not "this motherfucker"- well, no, fuck this guy. No, he literally left the table cause he was so upset cause he was like we shouldn't have talked about politics. Cause my boy goes off on some tangent being like, "well did you know that most Black people actually are not about defund the police?"
And I was like, "Hmm, I'd be curious about what your source is, but from my understanding-
[01:30:44] Sophie: I would've gotten arrested
[01:30:46] David: in Chicago there was actually a survey, about a couple hundred- actually more than- about 800 people were asked, Hey, did you know about this? And about 89% said, nah, so that was my starting point
[01:30:57] Caullen: this is a non-black person?
[01:30:59] David: This was of course a non-black person, the only non-person of color at that table-
[01:31:04] Sophie: When you start the sentence, "did you know that most Black people..." you know they're a non-Black person
[01:31:11] Caullen: I was just trying to do my journalistic duty
[01:31:13] Sophie: My god...
[01:31:15] David: that definitely takes us into a tangent, but to your point Caullen, where are you getting your sources? Who are you talking to?
[01:31:20] Sophie: A tangent to homicide
[01:31:22] David: And I think a big thing was, we did not know each other. I mean, granted, one person did know me there and they were probably excited, and probably that's why they edged on this conversation.
Cause he knew I'm not gonna keep my mouth shut, which is great cause I think everyone at the table left and learned a thing or two- my boy, how to be humbled. It's important- and to start wrapping things up here- I think with independent media looking at it as creators, cause that's how we're talking about it and we're talking to you- listeners of various forms of content, because I'm sure that we're not the only thing y'all listen to
[01:31:58] Caullen: we better be. Fuck you talking about? Nah...
[01:32:01] David: No, but I mean, as long as it's able to be a source, to be able to guide conversation and dialogue, I think is the only real meaning in this existential void. And to me, that's why I was talking to boy, cause he was getting all pissed off and I was like, listen, man, I'm here to talk to you. The fact that you have conversations and you had the audacity- naw, I don't think I said audacity, I think
[01:32:22] Caullen: The caucacity
[01:32:22] David: you had the balls to tell me, oh, I don't think Black people- I think Black people actually want to not defund the police, based on this one thing that you saw.
It's like, that's good, cause that's- you're basing yourself off that, and I'm here to tell you otherwise. I'm not speaking as a Black person, I'm speaking about this specific survey that spoke to a predominantly Black neighborhood about Cop Academy, specifically. But to that point, like 89% of the people who didn't know that Cop Academy was being built in their neighborhood, I'm part of that, born in Chicago type shit, that was like, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't understand aldermanic systems. I didn't even know that the parking was outsourced a couple of years ago cause they couldn't settle for a fucking debt.
These are things I didn't know. I was like, man, fuck these parking lots, or parking spots.
[01:33:09] Sophie: Wow
[01:33:09] Caullen: why aren't you paying your parking? Why, you don't have to
[01:33:13] David: It is then the job of independent media outlets, and I think that's also why we've seen a spike in them, there's enough people like us who are like, oh we're tired of this shit, we're going to be able to, we're tired of being- whether that's being shunned or quieted or suppressed, oppressed, or however you want to name it- and it's taking space. And that's one of the things that I love about Chicago, I can think of talking to this gentleman again, I was like, what do you watch? What do you listen to? He's like, you know Chicago Tribune, Chicago Sun Times. And I was like, okay, anything else? And he's like, I listen to this podcast- and I don't even remember what the fucking podcast was- but I was like, okay, cool. What about Block Club? What about the Reader? What about South Side Weekly? What about Soapbox Editorial? What about, just naming other spaces, you know what I'm saying? And he, but
[01:34:07] Sophie: Hide the medicine in the peanut butter
[01:34:11] David: Cicero Independiente. Thinking of all these outlets out here that are doing solid work and are literally speaking to what's happening in their block-to-block shit. That's where I didn't realize the privilege I had of, these are the way I get my sources. This is the way I get my media.
I don't turn on fucking news shit, which is a privilege in itself. But that's how I learned. That's how I do my shit. And comparing that with my boy who was trying to give me this survey done to god knows who, god knows where.
It helps, in a sense. So I feel better also as a listener/ independent media connoisseur to be like, oh, I know what you're talking about, oh, you talking about that incident and blah, blah, blah. Well I understand this from this perspective, because this is what’s shared.
Cause I also trust these independent media outlets to give me the sauce, and they have not failed just yet. So shout out to everybody out here in Chicago and abroad doing their shit as always.
[01:35:07] Sophie: That's what's up. I feel like everything you said, all I heard was, "oh, the impetus for independent media is trauma." Great. Got it. Got it. Facts, facts, facts. And so there's only one way to go but up. There's only one way to go but up.
[01:35:23] Caullen: Like all the way up?
[01:35:25] David: For reals, for real, Sophie, I appreciate you so much for being on this podcast with us and continuing to work alongside Bourbon 'n BrownTown while doing your own thing. Each of us developing as humans, and so for anyone who has not, and does not you've got to follow our girl on Instagram at Unpaid Emotional Labor it's gonna be the podcast, it's going to be all on the episode notes, shout out to Caullen for handling that.
And @sophie_ e_james to get at her directly, she will not respond to your DMs if you crusty, so just
[01:36:00] Sophie: I will leave you on read.
[01:36:02] David: Let's go. Not even-
[01:36:03] Sophie: And use you as a case study on the ways in which you can get blocked
[01:36:08] Caullen: you will get screenshotted
[01:36:10] Sophie: oh, with the quickness- there was one girl yesterday who came at me in the DMs about Will Smith, and I was like, I don't know why you had to use that sarcastic tone, but you can go talk to someone else about that. And she was like, oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to be sarcastic, but I was really-" I'm like, "okay, that's what I thought".
[01:36:27] Caullen: Eviscerate
[01:36:28] Sophie: Exactly. Teach them how to come correct. Cause people can be mad disrespectful, especially for us who've been minoritized. I mean, to your point-
[01:36:40] Caullen: Ohhh a verb, minoritized, let's go
[01:36:44] Sophie: looking at me pulling out a GRE word when the episode is ending
[01:36:49] David: You've been giving us 5 syllable words this entire time.
[01:36:51] Caullen: Minoritized. CA would enjoy that, CA Davis would enjoy that because it has verbiage and history and- go crazy!
[01:37:02] Sophie: Listeners, I try, okay. No, I'm just so grateful for this space that you both continue to create and be intentional with and also vulnerable with too. What I've realized, cause I've actually moved away from recapping The Bachelor, it actually broke me. And it was beautiful to still feel like I had a core group of people like, oh no, we'll listen to anything you say.
And so to see that with- and then we went into Love is Blind, another abyss- but to see your community and your followers pausing when you pause and rejoining when you guys feel ready to come back, it's just beautiful. And thank you for having me. And I hope that I didn't say anything too cringe on this episode and that something is salvageable,
[01:37:52] Caullen: Hey- I'm the Osama sympathizer, so I feel like no one can be worse than that.
[01:37:57] Sophie: And to that I say- you know what, thank you for bringing that up, because I was going to do another shout out and here comes my cat and I was going to do another shout out earlier- to folks, before you come into Caullen's DMs calling him an Osama sympathizer, read Terrorist Assemblages: Homonationalism in Queer Times by Dr. Jasbir Puar out of Rutgers. And I hope they put that in the episode notes because read that, and then you'll see who's the real Osama sympathizer.
Let's go!
Tell them
Now check that! Now I'm turning into a Housewife.
[01:38:32] David: Keep throwing dollars at the homie. At www.patreon.com/unpaid_emotional_labor.
[01:38:38] Sophie: I love me some underscores
[01:38:39] David: Cause we gotta keep that rent paid, homey. You got to keep that rent paid. And we'll do our best to make sure you get your plug
I got my dream job, but please keep paying my rent.
And we're incredibly excited for y'all to continue listening to us throughout 2022. And you know, we're going to be here giving you whatever it is that we have in whatever fashion that it is.
And so appreciate everyone continuing to listen, continuing to support. As always Bourbon 'n BrownTown, on the socials Patreon, et cetera, all on the episode notes, so make sure you get them. Sophie, once again, thank you and excited to continue having you.
And also I wanted to shout out a homie in the background, y'all haven't heard her, but Kiera is actually going to be- on that spot as Genta has moved on. But Kiera has continued to stay so shout out and appreciate you all, your work and love that you've been putting into this. We're Bourbon 'n BrownTown as always stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer,
[01:39:32] Caullen: stay tuned, stay turnt.
[01:39:34] David: And we'll see you next time
OUTRO
Outro music XXX by Kendrick Lamar
[01:39:52] David: Bourbon 'n BrownTown is engineered by Genta Tamashiro, and assistant produced by Kiera Battles. For more credits, information on episode guests, related media and topics check out the episode notes. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Bourbon 'n BrownTown, Twitter @BourbonnBrwnTwn. Or visit soapboxpo.com/podcast
[01:40:10] Caullen: For any and all things soapbox Productions and Organizing, follow us @Soapboxpo on all social media and visit soapboxpo.com.