BrownTown examines the ongoing gun control debate surrounding violence in America. As mass shootings are sadly nothing new, we interpolate this uniquely American phenomenon, which finds itself at the intersection of capitalism, militarism, white supremacy, and toxic masculinity. Through the examples, we attempt to deconstruct the typical, simplistic narrative around gun policy, noting that our efforts to curve violence must be holistic, incremental, and radical in its approach if we are to truly get free.
In light of all-too-frequent mass shootings across the country, another political gun control debate, and the broad swath of youth activism surrounding these issues, BrownTown turns a previous organic conversation into an episode. As gun violence in America is sadly nothing new, the youth mobilization after the Parkland, Florida school shooting sparked a lasting conversation around gun violence, the NRA, and public policy. However, as the March For Our Lives movement picks up steam and funding, the mainstream narrative often forgets or obscures the work of primarily Black and Brown individuals and organizations (insert: Good Kids Mad City; the 4 Front Project, Tiffany Loftin of NAACP) who have been working against the intersections of violence in and outside of their communities through nuanced, complex analyses that connect the “gun problem” to larger systems of oppression that sustain inequality and death in less salient ways.
BrownTown takes this approach to examine the culture of violence as a uniquely American phenomenon, which finds itself at the intersection of capitalism, militarism, white supremacy, and toxic masculinity. With SoapBox’s Chicago Drill and Activism project as a site of investigation, we explore drill rap from the UK and Chicago—two places with starkly different gun policy, yet similar problems for some of its most marginalized population. This leads them to compare and contrast gun policy on a global scale in an attempt to understand the story behind stats. How has America reconciled with its violent past? Why do some places with looser gun laws or violent histories have far less homicides and suicides? The second amendment is often propped up as a unquestionable staple in these conversations while obscuring the contextual milieu in which it was created as well as the reasoning behind some state’s stricter gun legislation (insert: Reagan and the Black Panther Party in the 1960s).
Lastly, BrownTown takes a reflexive look at even how our everyday language promotes a standard of domination and violence in seemingly “apolitical” ways. Through the examples, historical and contemporary, personal and hypothetical, BrownTown walks away from the conversation noting that our efforts to curve violence in America must be holistic, incremental, and radical in its approach if we are to truly get free. Originally recorded May 8, 2018.
--
CREDITS: Intro song This is America by Childish Gambino. Outro song PROM / KING by Saba. Audio engineered by Genta Tamashiro.
--
Bourbon ’n BrownTown
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Site | Patreon
SoapBox Productions and Organizing, 501(c)3
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Site | Support
Ep. 21 - Welcome to the Gun Show
BrownTown examines the ongoing gun control debate surrounding violence in America. As mass shootings are sadly nothing new, we interpolate this uniquely American phenomenon, which finds itself at the intersection of capitalism, militarism, white supremacy, and toxic masculinity. Through the examples, we attempt to deconstruct the typical, simplistic narrative around gun policy, noting that our efforts to curve violence must be holistic, incremental, and radical in its approach if we are to truly get free.
INTRO
Intro song This is America by Childish Gambino.
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:00:00] David: I wanna welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. I am your host David of BrownTown. Hanging out with my boy caullen. Caullen, man, how you doing today?
[00:00:08] Caullen: I'm doing good. How are you?
[00:00:09] David: We're okay. Yeah, no, you know, doing it.
We are okay.
[00:00:12] Caullen: He's always very collective with the answers. He's like, we're good.
Like I asked you
[00:00:17] David: I guess there's multiple sides to me. But here we are today bringing you another installment conversation that I know Caullen is very eager to start talking about. We've actually- it kind of started on our way to Missouri back in March. And we just started fumbling around the idea of a conversation, gun control, they've been in the conversation for a minute. And we're always hungry, we digested the media, we saw what's out there. But here we are today hanging out with y'all.
[00:00:43] Caullen: This is kind of shortly after the Parkland shooting, when we first were talking about this. Just Dave and I kind of chopping it up in the car, and we were like, we should- this is should just be an episode.
[00:00:52] David: And it's called, "welcome to the gun show". Let's really just jump in here. There's a lot to cover and we're not trying to repeat what's already been said, but I think there's a lot of things and a lot of issues, a lot of topics and comments that we can jump into. But we can go directly into the framing of gun control.
And so, what does this mean, Caullen? Framing of gun control, debate, what is the typical framing or why is that a thing?
[00:01:23] Caullen: I feel like over the past couple years, especially- I mean, it's always been in the conversation, but I think with the past couple years whenever there's a- and I hate to say this, but whenever there's a new school shooting, mass shooting, some shooting somewhere in our society I think it gets ramped up, especially the past decade or so.
There's a debate in the public consciousness between Democrats and Republicans and whoever about gun control, and common sense gun control, and what that means, what that looks like and who, and what exactly should be done. Oftentimes conservative outlets and outlets that they feel like they're being attacked, gun owners feel like they're being attacked. Feel like the left is trying to propose taking away all guns. Part of the legislation that normally comes forward is closing the gun show loophole, empowering government to actually be able to study gun violence as a public health problem-which the NRA blocks a lot of the time. And a lot of times, the thing I've noticed, is very much is reactionary to the event that happened, which I think happens in public policy in general. So after the Vegas shooting it was about banning bump stocks. After Parkland it was about the age you can buy assault weapons- which, of course kind of makes sense, but it's always very kind of reactionary.
But that's, again, how lots of public policy works. That's kinda what always happens. But I think after Parkland it looked different, right?
[00:02:46] David: Yeah, I mean, and I think you're very adamant because of the placing and who it was, right?
[00:02:52] Caullen: A little bit. I mean, I think the students who are mobilizing after Parkland, they've seen this in their young lives many times. "This" being mass shootings and stuff. And I think it happened, and it hit home, and they were politicized. I think that's what happens when you get politicized about some issue is when it hits home somehow.
And for some reason they didn't go away, which I think is great. And I think they're another iteration of the actors resurgence which is always talked about- but what's interesting and good and also kind of frustrating for me is to see students from this area, typically middle class white students, this tragic event happens in their community and they mobilize against it, and they're getting lots of exposure and lots of money, hundreds of thousands of dollars, which is well deserved to actually push policy and push change.
However, I can't help but look at Chicago and look at the many youth and adult organizations working against gun violence, gang violence, systemic violence, that kind of spawns all these things and all these- not deeper issues, but looking at violence in a very comprehensive way, looking at capitalism, looking at anti-Blackness in our public policy- especially in Chicago and nationwide, and how all those things beget the violence that we see on an everyday basis. Tons of kids who deal with trauma from school shootings ####, from school stabbings in the communities all the time. And they're mobilized against it, and again, have a comprehensive framework, looking at the top-down policies and interpersonal trauma, how to treat that trauma, and all these different things that go around the issue of violence in general. But they're not getting a hundred thousand dollars from Oprah.
Dwayne Wade is not giving them a hundred thousand dollars even though he is from here. So it's always this thing where it's like, this is great that March for Lives- I'm all for it, but who's being included, who's being amplified in this fight? And how do we not fund and amplify the fights that have been going on, and also the fights that have a more comprehensive analysis on things?
So again, Parkland students are looking for particularly legislation change- which I think needs to happen, but guns in America, and violence in America is a lot bigger than simply legislation.
[00:05:16] David: And we'll totally get to that. Actually, we're gonna be playing you something right now from Tiffany Dena. She's currently the new National Director for Youth and College Division for the NAACP. So let's take a listen:
[00:05:30] Tiffany Dena: for our lives on March 24th, 2018. We're here for three important reasons. Number one, what they will not do is ignore Black voices. Number two, what they will make sure to do is include our agenda in the agenda for gun prevention reform. When we talk about legislative issues and solutions for gun violence, it has to include the intersections of Black violence.
That means guns. That means gangs. That means schools. That means teachers. That means police brutality. That means state violence. It has to include all of that stuff, if we're gonna be able to do this together. This is not just about white people and school shootings in the classroom. They kill us in churches.
They kill us on the streets. They kill us in the car. They kill us when we're traveling. And they kill us in our classroom. This is about all the young Black people that you've been leaving behind. This is about none of this extra stuff with the concert. That's great. We're here to organize, represent, and show power. And the third thing that we're here to do is make sure we have a great time.
We came from all across the entire country to be here for a specific moment. Cause I want my people to feel empowered and I want them to go back to the field and to know that when they get back to the local organizing that's where it matters.
[00:06:31] Caullen: She just nails it!
[00:06:32] David: There's, she's like very quick. And like, I read some of the comments.
[00:06:35] Caullen: How does she do that?!
[00:06:36] David: I read some of the comments and people were just like, oh, she doesn't really say anything. She's just talking fast or like, blah, blah. But I'm like, they're not listening. And I really think the end of it is probably my favorite part- is just like, we're taking this momentum that we're feeling right now, and we're taking it back understanding organizing, putting ourselves together. But yeah, so you wanna tell us a little bit about the clip?
[00:06:58] Caullen: Have you seen that clip before?
[00:07:00] David: Yeah. Up until today, no, I think I saw it on Twitter at some point. Or maybe a smaller version.
[00:07:05] Caullen: I think that's great. I think she said what I was trying to say, but much more articulate, and much faster.
[00:07:10] David: Live, too
[00:07:11] Caullen: yeah. It's just like, this is March For Our Lives is good, and what's happening is great and it's like, but let's look at how the media frames this, let's look at how we always tie- we always latch onto the easy solutions to things, and the simple solutions to things. Again, March For Our Lives is good. Again, there are common sense gun regulations that need to happen, and they need not be reactionary, but this is so much bigger than just scapegoating to someone's mental health problem.
Which is another problematic thing. And then looking at the isolated incidents, right? This is an American cultural problem- which we'll get into. This is a systemic problem, as far as how we criminalize Black and Brown people. This is a systemic problem, as far as how we look at capitalism and the way gun manufacturers work and consumerism works.
This is a much bigger thing and needs to have a holistic #### solution, which I think is the thesis of our argument. If this is gonna be holistic, we need to look at the most marginalized people which are Black and Brown people. And a lot of these regulations, and these policies, and these narratives are things that I think are super important, they're not tangible like policies are. But the narrative you can prove to the masses that a certain person, a certain being, or certain group of people is violent, then you can put all kinds of things on the books that make, "good people" who work in the police department or in the justice program for some reason do things for their best interests, and further that criminalization. So the solution to this problem, what's the gun problem, it's bigger than that, first of all. And second of all, it needs to be holistic and addressing all these macro level issues in very real ways, and very radical ways, in ways that aren't gonna be easy and fun, aren't gonna happen overnight it's gonna take generations to actually get to a point where we can look at a peaceful, healthy society that actually takes public health seriously and not a pathological thing that scapegoats people of color and marginalized folks.
[00:09:00] David: And you kind of already touched on this, it was nice to see the type of reaction and these kids are extremely passionate about what they're talking about. And that's awesome. I've seen these kids on CNN, much more than I think I've seen Assata's Daughters or Black Lives Matter Chicago, or Action Chicago, then I've seen all of them combined in time-wise. And it's like, you see who's pushing the narrative, what kind of narrative they're pushing, and for what reasons. You know, they're not doing wrong by highlighting these children, but then why aren't these other bodies being shown?
Why aren't their missions and what they've been trying to fight for for years, up until this point, why aren't they getting the same attention? We look at GoodKids MadCity in Chicago. Kofi's running that right?
[00:09:48] Caullen: I think he would, shun me for to say he's running it. He's so humble. I think he helped start the coalition, so to speak.
Yeah, GoodKids MadCity is a movement created by youth from Chicago, Washington, DC, and Baltimore. Very much youth led and kind of adult supported. But basically they feel like they're attacked by their own city. And that's again, looking at the mayors both in Chicago, as well as in Baltimore.
This is quoting from them: "we stand in solidarity with Parkland and we want to uplift our own struggles. We chose the name GoodKids MadCity because oftentimes youth are described as negative terms such as 'troubled youth' or 'at risk youth'. When we are actually good. The system has been against us from the very beginning. We believe GoodKids MadCity accurately illustrates the struggle we are facing daily. We are tired of our shouts for help going unheard. We aren't asking anymore, we are demanding, demanding more." And they list things on the website; their GoFundMe about investment in youth employment, equitable school funding, mental health, all those same things we've always been talking about in this podcast, in Chicago activism and just in general, as far as these things that alleviate crime, alleviate power being that add to a system and an environment that doesn't beget such violence that we see. So it's taking money away from punitive measures, and putting them into actual social programs. And we'll of course get to that as well. But yeah, I think that's another thing that's like, where does the money go?
[00:11:15] David: Yeah. But- which we've talked about it, this problem isn't new. Guns have been a staple in our country and just the way things go. And so we had on here, it was interesting, and I actually don't know if we even looked into it, but mass shootings under Trump versus mass shootings under any other president. I'm not entirely sure- I don't think I've paid enough attention- it could be interesting to see if there are distinctions within it, I'm not, I don't know. What are your thoughts?
[00:11:50] Caullen: I mean, kind of two things. One thing, I think a while ago, again, this is sad was, I don't know which shooting it was, but it was under Obama and he had a press conference addressing the shooting. He was just like, he just looked tired.
He was just like, I'm gonna say this- he said this, I'm gonna say what I normally say, we're gonna talk about the same things we're gonna propose legislation, people are gonna say they're gonna pray for X place, and nothing's gonna happen. He's like, this is bullshit. He didn't say this is bullshit, but his subtext was very strong.
He's like, y'all fucking serious? I told y'all to do- what? And so I remember that very distinctly was saying, look like we've been here before. And I said, we should push this and we didn't. And then look what happens? What do you want do? So it was like, yeah. And Trump's terrible, of course, but this is, again, I think Trump encapsulates capitalism, white supremacy, anti-Blackness, all those things we keep talking about.
So it's like, it's more charged under him. But more so it's like, look at the leadership in the state, and look at the Republicans end up owning the House and the Senate and then nothing- no gun control being pushed because lots of them are in the pockets of the NRA.
And then we look at the power the NRA has and money in politics in general. That's a big thing as far as the policy side getting across. So I think that's what looks like, how it looks different under Trump. It's not as much Trump, as about who's actually making the laws in the first place. But this is, it doesn't really matter who president is, cause again, this is a cultural problem. This is a problem that stems from how we see guns, how we see violence as a thing that we have to do in order to get our point across in order to- that's domestically and abroad. I remember interviewing someone for "What's Beef" many years ago, we were looking at the vilification of Chief Keef and drill rap.
It's like, yeah it's easy to blame this kid, at the time 16 year old kid from the South Side for talking about guns and stuff, but under the Bush and Obama administration, we were seeing drones overseas and killing Brown people. So it's like, why aren't we talking about that? But it's not- it's a very similar thing as far as how do we deal with our problems? We use violence to assert our authority. And if you're a kid in Chief Keef's position, and you need to assert some kind of ownership of some kind of collective of family and your chosen family, and literally protect yourself, then I almost side with the Keefs of the world. More so than the American government for trying to protect their economic interests overseas.
So it's just same kind of argument, the same cultural thing that's a problem. That's a uniquely American problem. But the policy thing is something that's huge across the board as far as where money in politics go. I know for a while you wanted to call this episode the NRA episode. So I wanna get your thoughts on National Rifle Association, which the NRA stands for, and what their role is in all this, if you think there is one.
[00:14:31] David: Well, I mean, there definitely is. We're talking about money and it's- what was the name of the article you had, we've legalized bribery? So that's in itself is a thing. And I think the NRA has a hold simply because, what we talk about is it's the culture. It's part of the American culture. It's like, we'll whip out a couple stats in a minute, but I think they're hold in both- in every avenue that is related to guns.
Whether we're looking at military, buildings, or who, which campaign they want to be behind, or et cetera. What their agendas are. What I was gonna say is, it's been interesting because originally I was not a huge gun person at all. I wasn't. Just like, guns, do you really need a gun?
I don't know, let's talk about this. But I have, my own brother now, he's a registered gun owner. He's followed all the books, and this is something that he did as a hobby. And I think that's kind of opened up more light into the individual owning a firearm, owning something that can kill someone, in a much more distant way than stabbing someone to death.
Which we'll talk to in a little bit. But what I really wanted to go into, NRA influence or not, is really what kind of policies our state tries to push forward, and the pros and cons of common sense gun reform. We all know killing people's bad.
Or, so we're told, but, looking oftentimes there's always closing show loopholes or, enhancing mandatory background checks, standardize them all across the state or et cetera. Why haven't they, why hasn't that happened? And if it has happened, why has it been- why hasn it failed? Because it's been failing.
[00:16:34] Caullen: I think you speak to it as far as the NRA influencing folks. And I think I've read, I don't know how true this is, but there's some proposed legislation or can be proposed legislation as far as NRA supporting. And I think with this resurgence around Parkland and not if, but when this happens again, it will only be for the rhetoric and the fuel for-
[00:16:58] David: after Parkland, didn't the waffle guy shooting? Didn't that just happen a couple weeks ago?
[00:17:03] Caullen: Yeah.
[00:17:04] David: And he got off, I think he made a bail? I don't actually-
[00:17:09] Caullen: I'm not surprised, but he was a white dude and a Black guy stopped him. Trump tweeted at Kanye sayin, thanks for wearing my hat. But nothing about the Black dude who stopped the white supremacist, but that's a different podcast.
Anyway. But yeah, I think lots of these things will happen. My thing is always that even talking with comrades and folks we work with on the daily, folks are like, yeah this is good that this legislation is gonna pass, and it's like, yeah this is cool, but it needs to be more holistic.
Cause the folks who often are marginalized from this are- I won't say the good guy with the gun, but poor folks and folks in Black and Brown communities who see this as a way that actually may need protection. I feel like lots of times when you hear from folks who hunt a lot, or folks who just want a gun because they want or protect their families- or a hobby, it is more just to have. And again- #chiDNA, going back to my drill and activism project- you talk to lots of these folks who are in this world in Chicago. Especially who are in the gang and rap drill world and stuff, who talk about guns in their music a lot. But knowing and hanging out with some of them for a little bit now, it's like, no, they actually have it all. And that's the conduct of authenticity.
Backing up from that, when you talk to a teenager, or a young 20 year old kid who carries a gun around pretty often, because he has a price on his head, because literally if he does not have it, he could be shot at and not be able to retaliate, or he could die because he had nothing to push one back away from, from literally killing him, you get to a different conversation. And even in the city people would be doing good work, still there's this rhetoric of "put the guns down" or like "stop the killing, stop the shooting". It's like, well, if you killed my cousin two years ago, and I've been raised in a way that doesn't show me these consequences, and my life expectancy is really 20s, 25. And again- and you killed my cousin, I know who you are, I know where you hang out at, and I have free access to these weapons of destruction- for people like us or some people we know, it's like, that's crazy to think about. But if you break the world down like that, that's not a crazy thought if I can retaliate that way.
And we look at, again, the money and trauma and where money goes for services. If I have no way for that trauma to be treated by my cousin being killed. If I have cops in my classroom and don't wanna talk to them when I go to school. If I'm struggling to eat every other day and I need something to hang onto to something to kind of cope with. And that retaliation is a thing I can A) do, and B) I think going to make me feel better, and hell- it might make me feel better. Then that's gonna be an attractive option. I'm not advocating violence in that way by any means, but I can understand why someone would want to do that.
And then, also compare that with they're a skilled lyricist and they listen to some music, and they're talented and they want to put their music out in the world, and they want to tell their experience and tell their truth through music and that's their truth. Like, I'm gonna talk about that. And so I think with the, "put the guns down" and the "stop the killing" and the "drill rap is bad" and looking at these things in a simplistic milieu, it's dangerous. And then when those people who say that support more cops in these communities, or support take away guns programs.
It's like, that's- it's not- that's a piece of the puzzle and you have to understand the whole thing. How about put that money towards trauma services for these youth, and not only alleviate the problems that make this a thing in the first place, but also have a healthy, equitable way to deal with the trauma in the first place.
So again the concept of gun reform I'm for, but it has to be that and; this needs to be a holistic solution. It needs to happen, maybe not all at once, but it needs to be understood in the same strategic plan. Cause if one thing happens, and other one doesn't, we're gonna cause problems somewhere else, there's gonna be unintended consequences. And we've seen that in other places as well.
[00:21:19] David: Yeah. Well, I mean, and I think what we can do right now is go into a little more and help folks who are learning just as we are of what this really means. And understanding this top down action, like, okay, you're telling kids in certain communities to put their guns down, but you're increasing police presence, or you're increasing the budget for the military, or you're like, you know, Trump wants to have his dudes marched down the middle of, I don't even know what
[00:21:49] Caullen: military parade
[00:21:50] David: yeah. And so if that's- so let's break that down a little more. And I want you to do it, because you've talked a little bit more on this subject right now. So for this to be a whole systemic problem. So do you believe then- or what do you believe is the best thing for us to do, hypothetically?
[00:22:11] Caullen: Caullen, solve the gun problem right now, go!
[00:22:13] David: Right now! No, no, not necessarily like that. But- maybe cause I've heard it, so that's probably where it's coming from. But, so once we understand that this issue is a systemic problem, it's not just kids having nothing better to do but kill each other, or cops being one bad apple. Or what have you. Or there's a crazy person who goes into a school and shoots people. Outside of those, how is it then that we can start looking at this gun control problem? And so if we start looking at it and understand from the get go, that it is a systemic problem, then we start looking at our system, right?
[00:22:51] Caullen: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:22:51] David: You look at the military, you look at how much money is being spent on the military on a yearly basis. And from there we can go- stay domestic or go international. But for the sake of this conversation, we'll just stay domestic. And so then you start looking at manufacturing within- I was seeing on CNN for a minute, and I think gun homicides are 25 times more in the US over all these other countries.
And the reason for it is because of the amount of guns that we have pumped into our system. And so, why are we still making guns? If we have so many fucking guns. I dunno. And so, we're seeing it from that, I think that there's an issue with that particular point, and I just wanna make it before we continue moving forward. But one of the things that I saw were people turning in their guns.
Or something they're like, oh, I don't need this machine gun, so I'm gonna turn it into my police station. It's like, you're doing what?? And they're like, I encourage everyone else to do the same, we wanna make the world safer place so we should give the cops our guns.
And I'm like, no dude. I literally commented. I don't like comment on shit anymore cause I get into fights with people, but I was like, no, don't, this was a horrible idea, you are literally creating a bunker. Or not a bunker- what's the name for it? Where you have all your guns?
[00:24:21] Caullen: Stock pile
[00:24:21] David: Your stockpiling in what is already a stock piled place.
[00:24:25] Caullen: They get, they get bread.
[00:24:25] David: Yeah. No. Oh, no, we've talked about that. #NoCopAcademy, as always.
[00:24:30] Caullen: Fuck 12.
I like that point though, cause I think that's important part of it. And this conservative talking point that I kind of agree with, as far as, oh, there's all these legal- there's public policy push forward to make it "harder to get guns", which normally is not that much harder. But it's like, for honest people who are gonna follow the law to get guns, that may be like, criminals are always gonna be able to get guns.
I think that's an absolute, which isn't totally true. But I think it's not totally a myth. I feel like, obviously with the amount of guns just available, it's-
[00:25:05] David: in our fucking state
[00:25:07] Caullen: Right. So I think, yeah, that's part of the whole solution as far as, literally don't make as many guns. Over time we won't see the ramifications of that over- it will be a while til we see that, of course, but I think that's part of it. Part of it's in the top down, looking at the state, looking at the money that goes to the military and cops, part of it's legislation, part of it's just on the consumerism and capitalism tip.
[00:25:33] David: Cause we want guns
[00:25:34] Caullen: not creating- oh yeah, the demand's there. Why is the demand there? Cause I need to protect myself. Why? Because, we get into gangs and how gangs were originated and look at the #### problems of anti-Blackness and capitalism and poverty that create gangs in the first place. But I think that's a pivotal part that you mentioned, which I think is good.
[00:25:51] David: And I just found that number that I was looking for. So according to a CNN, it'll probably be up, Americans own nearly half, which is 48%, of the estimated 650 million civilian owned guns worldwide.
[00:26:04] Caullen: So many guns.
[00:26:06] David: Why do we need so many fucking guns? I'm just- I don't know. It's beyond me. And we're looking at, at least when we're talking about looking for solutions, right? So we understand that this is a systemic problem. We're understanding that it's really where the money goes, but can we really just tell our system, Hey, we're tired of spending X amount of our budget on military when we already know we have the biggest military-
[00:26:36] Caullen: We're Gucci!
[00:26:37] David: Who the fuck is gonna- even if they do- this is the thing, if someone, I don't know, terrorism and war that's a whole fucking other topic.
[00:26:46] Caullen: You're just saying words.
[00:26:47] David: No, no, no, no. I mean, yes I am. But it's like, I get it, I understand the need in this day and age for this militarized sort of culture that we live in. And we were talking about just in the car, we were talking about, why you gotta "kill" that? Like, "man, we fucking killed this meeting, dude".
[00:27:06] Caullen: Well, it's like-
[00:27:06] David: what?! No, go ahead.
[00:27:08] Caullen: I mean, no, you're right. It's like- we're kind of getting into this as far as the, I think we talk a lot about the policy aspect, and systemic oppression aspect, and all that, naming white supremacy, four times in the podcast. But it's like, this is a uniquely American problem. And I do wanna ask you about other countries and what they do, and how it's different here. But just culturally and the way we digest media, the way we digest music. I'm a big component of art reflecting culture, and culture reflecting art.
However, there's something about even just the way we talk, which promotes the idea of violence in such a subtle way, such a nuanced way, in such a "apolitical" way that just goes under radar. I work in the fitness industry, and it's like, "we killed that workout", or like, "you murdered that". It's always these really- and bringing up toxic masculinity, there's all these violent terms. Having sex with women, "slam" "slash", always all these terms. Why?
[00:28:04] David: "Slash"?? That sounds horrible. You've heard that before??
[00:28:07] Caullen: I have not. It just came out of me in the moment. My point being,
[00:28:10] David: we gotta start saying that.
[00:28:11] Caullen: No, we don't. That's disgusting.
[00:28:14] David: No, but I get exactly everything we say is-
[00:28:17] Caullen: It's like saying "we killed that meeting", right? That's violent. Why do we have that in the meeting in a violent way that doesn't exist anymore? But it's equated, it's paralleled with a good thing. It's good to kill a workout.
[00:28:31] David: It's connotation
[00:28:32] Caullen: connotation. It's good to kill a workout. It's good to murder on the basketball court.
[00:28:38] David: Culture is like- strength is
[00:28:41] Caullen: strength and power and domination and obliterating your opponent is good. And we use that all the time. And I used the toxic masculinity example as a harsh example, but we say it all the time in everything we talk about. So why is that always a good thing?
[00:28:58] David: But it's interesting, a couple months back when we had that conversation of toxic masculinity and being aware that we have to check our peers. It kind of starts going on the same boat, but it also becomes, at least for me I think it's become harder simply because of the culture that I'm processing on a daily basis.
So we look at music, for example, the song that we just came into "This is America". Donald Glover, he drops it May, I remember you sent it to me and I'm just amazed at this video. But however, if you hear him throughout the song, he's using the same language that we're talking about that we're saying is problematic.
But I'm fucking with the, I'm jamming out to it. And I'm like, yes, I understand that he knows that this is a problem, just like I know that it's a problem. But we're still being like, "yo I'm strapped" or whatever lingo language that we're using and feeding the culture.
[00:29:51] Caullen: "Strapped" means you have a gun on you, for those who don't know.
[00:29:54] David: By this time, if you don't know that, why are you still listening? No, I'm just kidding.
[00:29:57] Caullen: If you have a tool or a hammer, that's also a lingo for gun. FYI.
[00:30:03] David: That's gonna be a hip hop 2.0. We're gonna just break down all slang linguistics-
[00:30:06] Caullen: We should have a drill thesaurus.
[00:30:09] David: We should have Little G or Tay here.
[00:30:11] Caullen: That'd be great.
[00:30:11] David: That's not a bad idea. But yeah, so we're talking about it, we're seeing how this is a cultural problem. And then we look at other countries, right? I saw a super like dope- it was like an independent co, 2 minute video on Japan. It had zero deaths in 2010 related to guns. No one died according to their census 2010. The reason for this is cause it's hard as shit to get a gun, 1. And 2) because of their history with war. They got bombs dropped on them and then- we're just talking about bombs. They got bombs dropped-
[00:30:45] Caullen: by who, who dropped those bombs?
[00:30:46] David: We had just- their culture in general. And so then they add policy, and so they all realize that they, we don't want guns, we don't need guns. And so then the police build different tactics. They train particularly in the field of martial arts, because they don't have firearms, so you have to learn to handle things differently. Which, guess what- you can. Our cops don't need to be walking around Wrigleyville with AR-15s or whatever the fuck they had.
[00:31:11] Caullen: Oh my gosh.
[00:31:11] David: Right. You saw? I was like, what?
[00:31:13] Caullen: I've put it on my instagram story a couple times. During Cubs games they'll have M-16s.
[00:31:18] David: They got fucking horses up the ass. It's like, bro this is a Cubs game. What are you worried? Do you think someone's gonna come in here and bomb this shit? I don't know.
[00:31:25] Caullen: If they do, how's your M-16 gonna help the bomb? Anyway. But no, getting back to our earlier point about funding and all that, why is M-16s at baseball games? It seems a little unnecessary. But it looks at our priorities as a city, and as a state, and as a nation. But with that, I know you told me about Japan. And I was watching Fareed Zakaria, it was a while- again, it was after one of the mass shootings, and he was like, what's the gun legislation like in other countries?
And this kinda gets my point more so with the cultures. I can't remember the exact countries, so I apologize. But two different countries, I believe they're both in Europe, I'm not sure. But one had very, very strict gun laws, similar to Japan. Maybe not that strict, but- it wasn't- guns weren't a thing. Very few, if any, gun deaths, gun problems with violence. Another country, very, very loose, very liberal gun laws. A lot of people had guns, it was a sporting thing, it was in there with your family. Still, not a lot of gun laws, #### and death.
That's something I always mention when I have these conversations with folks who are very much for straight gun control. I tell them, yeah, we should have, I do believe there is common sense gun legislation. However, it can't happen in a bubble, it can't happen in a vacuum because this is a cultural thing. And even if we have this legislation, which I'm not necessarily saying good things can't come from it, and that's been researched and shown, there's still a problem with the culture in the way we see violence, in the way we see power, and the way we see masculinity that's problematic and damaging and harmful.
In the most literal ways and systemic ways as well. And so we have to have an honest conversation with ourselves about the impetus of our country, and how it was founded on slavery and genocide. And how that hasn't really ended. I think you hear that a lot, especially in liberal- leftist-liberal, whatever, spaces. I don't like using that binary, but that's the language we have in our culture. You get lost in those spaces and there's talking points against that too. And it's like, oh, well that was back then, we're here now. But again, it is a cultural thing. We don't have honest conversations about these things. We don't have honest conversations about the end of slavery, about Jim Crow, about the new Jim Crow, about how all these, again, policies and narratives especially, that proliferate anti-Blackness, capitalism, and the expendable use of marginalized people for the state and elite's benefit. You don't have these conversations.
And there needs to be an honest dialogue about that, and the action that comes forward- comes after it. When you look at Germany, they obviously have a violent history, but they have reconciled with that history. And their stats with gun violence, with violence in general, are nowhere like ours. Cause I think we haven't had that honest conversation, and held people accountable, and held systems accountable, and institutions accountable for those problems. And that needs to happen as well. And it's about the narrative, we're artists in the liberal use of the word, we make movies and visuals, and make these podcasts, and make art to look at these things. That's how important art is, as far as having these conversations and getting to the root cause of all these problems. We need to change the narrative. I feel you hear that a lot now, too, but it's very real. If the masses don't believe it, then it's not gonna happen. That's part of when we talk about the new Jim Crow, and 13th, and the war on drugs and all that. People are awake to it now, which again, I will always say is awesome. But we look at the PSAs, shitty, just shitty, shit we produced PSAs from the '80s under Reagan, with Pee-Wee Herman, all these other things about "drugs are bad" "this is your brain on drugs", all this bullshit, but it worked. People believed it.
And poor white folks believed that, and they associated drugs and violence or criminality and crack cocaine with Black people. And they got separated by elites and by the state, and that made it easy to control. And as we see a resurgence of that kind of rhetoric now with Trump, and it's like this shit isn't new. And we're seeing this again, and over and over again. I think now we have a more cross-streamed active resurgence against that. And we have people who have privilege, *whisper* white folks, folks with money, who are kind of more so on our side now, which is cool. It's like, you gotta understand we've been doing this for decades, for centuries.
And we can't have these piecemeal neoliberal bullshit approaches to changing these systems. We need to understand these in a radical approach. Understand shit's not gonna happen overnight. It needs to be holistic. It needs to understand all these different spheres. Manufacturing, policy, culture, whatever.
And it's not gonna- it's gonna take a long time and shit's gonna get bad.
[00:36:00] David: Before it gets better.
[00:36:01] Caullen: Shit's gonna get real bad. Shit's gonna get bad before it gets better. It just is. With any radical approach, any revolution it's never happened overnight, and then peaceful and great. So it's gonna take a long time, but we have to understand it as a holistic approach or else nothing's gonna get done. I'm super depressed now.
[00:36:21] David: no, but I mean, it's about holding people accountable. We're so quick to blame mental health. We're so quick to blame people, or we're quick to- and it's, I think it's also it's case by case. We have how many shootings of people, like unlawful shootings by either a person in a uniform and/or just another civilian? Why? It's interesting, cause we're looking at cops, when they're cruising, "serve and protect", they got stamped on the side. Who do they serve and protect? And so it's like, I'm scared that these fucks have guns, so I want guns. And I know we talked a lot about drill, and these artists, and looking at these spaces that we oftentimes see as vilified, whether through their music video, or just their contents in general. But then we take it a little bit more to a more normal man's approach of why you would want a gun. Or why you really hate guns.
That conversation is great, but the goal is to get to an understanding that once you understand the systemic, once you understand that then that there are actual solutions. Australia bought its guns from its people. They're like, if you guys got gats, we'll pay you for them.
And they're like, yeah sure. Here, I have seven guns, but they just told me I can get $5,000 if I sold all these guns right now. Bet! That's just one way in which to actually start making that change. Then you stop closing down schools. Put these shorties into after school programs, increase employment, all things that GoodKids MadCity has listed on their mission. And like them, there are plenty of other organizations that are calling for the same thing. But once again, these aren't the conversations that are being heard by everyone.
The conversations that are being heard is very particular instances that somebody somewhere is profiting off of. And that's why that's in the mainstream. And the goal is we continue- and then that's one thing that we go back to the girl with the tweets. I love this, hopefully we take this momentum, we go back and we go with our organizers, and from their collective. Cause they were in Washington when that happened. I remember when me and you were in Washington for the Women's March. And that energy that we felt when we were on our way back. And sure, we drove for like 9 hours, but I remember coming into the city and I'm like, I'm fucking hyped.
We just did some cool projects. We just interacted with some amazing people. There's so many other people who feel like me, let's do this. And we've been on a run since.
[00:39:03] Caullen: #SoapBoxInTrumpland. Go watch it.
[00:39:06] David: And I think it's important. And I think that the fact that we have these moments, whether it is in our art, like with Gambino's music video. Or whether it's with our organizers and our activists on the floor, like Tiffany. Or people like us who are also, everyone's trying to make a change and you find the outlet to do so. Yeah, it's a systemic problem. Yeah, sure it's gonna be a bitch. There's so many sides to it. You personally- actually I don't know what you personally believe, we can get into that more. But on my side-
[00:39:37] Caullen: Do you know?
[00:39:38] David: No, I do. On my side, I'm okay with people having a firearm. I think that if we understood that "everyone has a gun" mentality, but I get it.
[00:39:49] Caullen: You don't have to live like that.
[00:39:50] David: It's a little dangerous.
[00:39:51] Caullen: It's a myth!
[00:39:53] David: I get it's a myth. But, let me also tell you something- to me, and this is, we're getting a little bit, not meta, but going that route.
If no one in my community has a firearm, but there's patrol cars all around. For anything to happen. If the cop one day knows that no one in this community has anyway to defend themselves, they can do whatever the fuck they want. In that head space. If it were to come to that. If they were able to go into community and strip all their guns, do you personally think that we're gonna have less police officers in the city?
[00:40:35] Caullen: Under the pretense that-
[00:40:36] David: That there are no guns. That we all sold our guns. The city of Chicago, no one has guns. Or if you have gun-
[00:40:44] Caullen: would the police officers also be demilitarized? Is that what you're saying?
[00:40:47] David: Well, no. Do you think- that's thing. I don't think- I think all of the legislation, or all of the conversation is always on the civilian.
[00:40:53] Caullen: Oh no, it is. You're right. And I don't think that would happen. Nor do I think that's the solution either. All I was saying earlier is that giving everyone a gun would solve the gun problem is a lie and a myth which is totally not true.
[00:41:05] David: And I think it's the same thing- if you take away everyone's gun, it's the same thing.
[00:41:08] Caullen: Right.
[00:41:08] David: I mean, if you take EVERYONE'S, by "everyone" we're meaning the system in itself also has to agree with this.
[00:41:14] Caullen: That's a hypothetical. That's not- that can't be-
[00:41:16] David: it's not possible
[00:41:17] Caullen: carried out. I think there should be stricter gun law, sure. But I think that should also go with the civilians, as well as the police in the military. And the money should- I said this earlier, you know what I mean? So I do agree with you in that sense. But kind of piggybacking on that a little bit with folks needing guns to defend themselves, from police, in particular. Look at California in the '60s and '70s. They had, they turned to have the strictest gun laws under the Mulford Act.
And that was because Reagan and white folks were scared of the Black Panthers having guns.
[00:41:49] David: Cause they were just posted.
[00:41:50] Caullen: Cause it was an open carry state back then. So Black Panthers would follow police around, make sure they didn't kill or harm Black and Brown folks. They would take with them rifles.
[00:41:58] David: And that's what I'm saying. I am all for that. It's checks and balance, my dude. This is an argument that my brother made, super quickly. He's like, any human being holding a firearm, not just males. Like let's talk about, you have a small human versus somebody else. You give them both a gun, it puts it into a different plateau if you're just equal. You both have the same ability to do the same amount of damage
[00:42:27] Caullen: I understand that. But on the flip side, how about let's totally take it away from both people.
[00:42:32] David: Fair, but still one person's still gonna be bigger than the other. That's what I'm trying to get. What I'm trying to get at- if it gets to a point where you have a certain individual, who without this firearm cannot actually protect themselves. We're not talking about a drill rapper. Just some lady walking down the street, some motherfucker tries to rob her bag, or some dumb shit. She pulls out a gun- she automatically has either equal level, or beyond. Do you agree or disagree?
[00:42:57] Caullen: Sure.
[00:42:58] David: And so what I'm getting at is, there is a use for the gun. And I personally don't think that every American in the world needs to give up their guns. I don't. I think that some people have way too many guns, personally. And I think the biggest problem is you start seeing changes in our military, which then trickle down.
[00:43:19] Caullen: And when I say holistic, I don't mean wholesale. As far as, everyone either needs a gun or no guns ever anywhere. Cause that's just not practical. Why even entertain that? But let's look at a whole list of solutions-
[00:43:28] David: but I mean, there are people who think like that,
[00:43:30] Caullen: And that's fine. I'm not having that conversation, cause it's kind of pointless cause it's not gonna happen. So I'm looking at a holistic versus wholesale method, as far as looking at all these different avenues. And it's that point about the Panthers in California in the '60s is important cause like I said, there is a real fear, especially in marginalized people's community to defend themselves against the state. I think more so than the conservative talking points you normally hear. However, in the '90s you saw a lot of that, saw a lot of Nazi sympathizers, and cultish white folks defending themselves against the state. And some of that shit was kind of nuanced as far as like what happened at Waco in '92 and '93, I'm not sure what year. But what that looked like far as the state coming on people's lands and doing bad stuff.
So I think that is more a nuanced conversation to have. Again, with all kinds of people in this country. But the Black Panthers thing is very particular because, I saw a tweet after Parkland- some Black dude was on Twitter he was like, you wanna have strict gun laws? Give every Black man in the country a gun. You'll get strict gun laws by Monday, it was like Saturday.
So it was like, that's what happened in California. There's all these Black folks who were following around police making sure they didn't harm their communities. With very salient 12 gauge shotguns, M-16s- large gun, not just like large guns. And they developed this law and passed it so that- really, so that Black folks wouldn't have guns defend their communities. And not back then as is not now, but it was really a necessity to do that and follow police around and see finally what they're doing. Again, now that's not a need to do now.
[00:45:07] David: And that's all I wanted to hear. Because I personally think it's like-
[00:45:10] Caullen: again, and my thing is like, yeah, we can defend ourselves against this that and the other, but it's like, let's make it so we don't have so many ops in the first place. Then we don't have to defend ourselves against anybody. But it's like- and look at how those ops form, whether they're in our communities- they're folks like us, or they're the state. And bring it down to a level that's- again, that's equitable and healthy and promotes peace and love and prosperity. But again, it's not gonna happen overnight. It's gonna take a long, long, little way to get there.
[00:45:39] David: And taking it a little bit to the conversation of what we see with our art. We understand that guns are a problem in America. We all get it. Some of us feed to it. Some of us are trying to fight against it. But regardless of it, it's still a thing. And so, you add gang culture, especially the gang culture you have here today. We're constantly talking about Chi-DNA. But, in Chicago, but we have to understand that the problem isn't necessarily that. The problem is a result of their ecosystem. You look at the levels of poverty. You look at what surrounds them in terms of policy and narratives that are anti-Black. We talked about it, the Reagan ads, or the PSA ads or whatever- that was able to persuade people, and that is what they grew up with.
And maybe they at some moment in time hopefully realized, yo maybe this shit wasn't completely accurate. But that's what we hope. You can't expect that that was the case. And we see this in so many other places. And interesting enough, we're talking about drill music- you got UK drill.
[00:46:55] Caullen: I spent half an hour on YouTube looking at UK drill. So let me explain, like we always do: drill rap is the Chicago version of gangster rap. Very tied to hyper-local geography of gangs in Chicago. Has a very specific sound to it and everything like that. So then we say hear drill things in Chicago, like gangster rap, so to speak. But yeah-
[00:47:16] David: UK drill, what the fuck.
[00:47:18] Caullen: So, yeah, in the UK- over in London, particularly- they have their own kind of #### of drill, so to speak. A lot is influenced by, and obviously they have their own lingo, they have their own reference themselves to London specific, UK specific things. But it sounds a lot like the drill rap in Chicago.
(music credits)
[00:47:38] David: This is it??
[00:47:52] Caullen: First one was UK.
(music credits)
[00:48:06] Caullen: They both bang, right?
[00:48:08] David: They're both are wonderful.
[00:48:08] Caullen: But they sound so similar, right? And it's like, there's a line- and obviously there's no- it's not there's no guns in the UK, but you look at the UK and violence between- they report their low income Black and Brown, especially males, it's a knife problem. It's all about stabbing and machetes, and the folks who carry huge machetes and blades on them. And kind of in lieu of guns. Cause they're- they might have stricter gun laws. Or the gun isn't as much of a problem over there as it is over here, but they have the same problems with knives and stabbings. And so in the first artist, S-J from 63, he talks about stabbing someone or someone getting stabbed.
And then King Louie has a very elaborate way of talking about guns shooting somebody. And so it's same kind of metaphor, or word play in this art form, this music. We was talking about very much the environment that he is coming from. We're talking about guns, talking about knives. Coincidentally enough, several months ago, I had the pleasure of meeting Temi MWale. I'm not sure if I say her name right. She does some awesome work with 4front project in the UK, working with Black and Brown youth, working with folks who are going through trauma of friends or loved ones getting stabbed or going through some kind of violent incident. And not only working with them one on one, or in some counseling way of trying dealing with that trauma, like I mentioned earlier. But also working with groups as far as relocating funding and resources to grassroot groups doing this work and relocating the money and resources to the systemic problems that we get gangs, and we get folks needing to protect themselves and carry huge machetes in the UK. In very real ways
[00:49:51] David: how do you hide that? I mean, I can see how you hide it, but it's like,
[00:49:54] Caullen: yeah. I mean, and it's crazy. But, she summed it up very well, I don't wanna take her words from her, but she was on a show not too long ago. And she said this,
[00:50:02] Temi Mwale: I would like to see support, urgent support for all the young people that have been victims of serious violence, including stabbings over the last 12 months. They urgently require trauma interventions, support counseling therapy to come to terms with the violence that they've suffered. As communities we need to be trained. Grassroots organizations, community based groups, we need urgent training in how to assist young people developing coping skills and mechanisms when they're going through this trauma. We're working with young people that are anxious. They're going through paranoia. They're fearful. They have anxiety and they're depressed a lot of the time. They're traumatized. Not all of these organizations have the skills to work with those young people. We have the relationships, but we need more skills so that we can deal with that reality. And the reality is, if the mayor's office can find money for their campaigns, if the home office can find money for their campaigns, we're talking 32 million for the "knife free campaign", there's money that we can invest into these types of trauma interventions in the short term,
[00:50:57] David: baby girl, yes!!
[00:50:59] Caullen: I wanna say, oh, she kills it. That's a problem. No, but like, I mean, okay, what's your reaction? It's your first time seeing it, right?
[00:51:08] David: Yeah, that's the first time I seeing it. I understood, and we had talked about violence, there will always be violence, right? Regardless of what it is that we're talking about. And so really paying more attention to this knife situation that this country's dealing with, and really the gravity in which it is a problem. We are literally talking about, how many shootings have there been in Chicago this year? That's the type of conversation we're having. Cause that's what's going on. But you go into somewhere else and they're like, how many people have been stabbed this year?
You're like, motherfuckers just going around stabinge people? And so once I saw how big of a problem it actually was, and really seeing the similarities between the music, like when you were just playing right now, I was like, when we started it and then when we switched, I didn't really know which one started first and this is so similar.
[00:52:04] Caullen: UK versus Chicago?
[00:52:05] David: Yeah, UK versus Chicago. And it's- the similarities are there. And that's so great. And listening to her it's exactly what we all need. I actually might say that I feel that there are actually organizations in Chicago though, who are already trained in dealing with these traumas.
[00:52:25] Caullen: Well, I think she was saying that we need to allocate money towards these people, because she's doing that work too. One of the things she mentioned, I met her at a panel, Chicago Urban League on inter-communal violence, what should we do about it? She had a lot of activists, a lot of cool, awesome folks, public health folks too, on that panel. And her and Charles Pressman were talking about the money. And there's an old head there who, you know, well respected and stuff, he was talking to them and saying, Hey, you don't need money to do this work, it's passion, woowoo. Which there's some truth to that, right? We're doing this, we're not getting paid. No, but you can do so much without money. You can do a lot without money, which is impressive. But she, one thing she mentioned on that panel was, Hey, if I had X amount or just a couple thousand dollars, she's like, I could house these couple shorties for this long. And they wouldn't have been on the streets because they feared for their life because this happened previously and they were associated with this person. Which wasn't their fault. But she named someone, she was like, he was killed because he didn't have a place to go, woowoo. Basically saying that if she had money, she could've housed this person for this long and got them somewhere else. So, yeah, money does matter as much as we don't like it. Especially in, not just non-profit, but grassroots doing radical work and having this analysis on poverty, anti-Blackness, capitalism, consumerism especially, it's like no money matters in us doing this work. This isn't free work.
And for some reason it's always seen that way, which is just a slap in the face. And so I think one of the things she was- I love that she was saying there was, this "knife free campaign", you hear things about take the guns away and all these things campaigning- that costs $32 million there. And she also mentioned there in the panel that I saw- but also in the interview, that they have these things where, oh we'll just confiscate all these knives from this neighborhood. And they'll showcase it on the news, all these knives as a big long order achievement win. It's always seen as these wins and losses thing, which another problematic binary, but it's like, we won, we put all these guns away. Shorties from the opposite neighborhood will see that and they'll know that they can't defend themselves in neighborhood X and they'll come, you know? So it's like, you're just broadcasting this shit and not understanding the inter-communal, the personal ramifications this has on people. And not only just the #### ramification, but the people, folks psyche, and how to defend themselves, how to deal with this trauma, and the way corporate mainstream media, as well as public policy that is neoliberal in its approach- and by that I mean, a very punitive, a very looking at private interest all that- isn't helpful, it doesn't have the interest of real public health, and real marginalized folks having equitable opportunity to resources and seeing their communities to the full potential that it can be cause they've been divested for so long.
And then they get reinvested in as a form of gentrification, and it pushes them out even further. So this- it's all related. It's all cyclical; therefore there needs to be a related cyclical, holistic approach to attacking these things. My big thing with bringing up UK drill with Chicago drill as well as just knives versus guns all that, is that- yes, again, there should be common sense gun regulation, but these problems are bigger than that. These problems have to do with how the narratives operate around money, how narratives operate around Black and Brown folks as criminals, and around divestment and power. And how it's been very intentional in these communities.
[00:55:49] David: So tell me Caullen, does crime pay?
[00:55:51] Caullen: Crime does pay. Crime pays heavily.
[00:55:54] David: Oh, but baby, baby, who's it pay?
[00:55:56] Caullen: It pays judges. It pays lawyers. It pays coroners. It pays the ambulances. It pays a lot of people who aren't marginalized or low income, Black and Brown folks, or marginalized white folks too. You know what I mean?
[00:56:08] David: Yeah. Yeah. Of course.
[00:56:10] Caullen: Not a white elite. He asked that-
[00:56:13] David: the bourgeois
[00:56:14] Caullen: cause it has to do with everything where- yeah the bourgeoisie if you wanna get a little Marx with it. But David poses that cause I'm also wearing a shirt that says "crime pays" on it from Trap House Chicago. David, please tell me a little bit about Trap House Chicago. I'll pitch it to you this time.
[00:56:29] David: Trap House is a wonderful organization that's been doing their shit on the South Side, 79th and Ashland. They got a little spot set up where you can go in and buy street wear. So it sells shirts, long sleeves, et cetera. And their whole model is this restorative justice. And so it's using their brand in order to put out a message. And so there's shirts that say, crime pays- on the back gives you a list of who it really pays. It does not pay the community. It's taking a very simple thing, to me personally it's a simple thing, and putting it in such a really dope ass thing. You're rocking this sweater. You know what you're rocking and everyone's fucking looking at you because, we are a brand. You're walking with it. And so it's like sometimes- I know you also got that support white supremacy shirt. And I'm sure motherfuckers look at this Black dude like, what the fuck he's wearing? And then you read the back and you're like, wait I'm so confused. And if they wanna talk to you, they'll talk to you. But at least if anything they'll go home and they'll be like, the fuck? If anything. But yeah, shout out to Trap House doing amazing work. And allowing- because what they also do with their second space is I know that they have open mics every third Friday of the month.
[00:57:44] Caullen: They have healing spaces as well. Have folks come in and talk about their trauma and talk through it, cause the state doesn't offer that service. So we're stepping in- they're stepping in.
[00:57:52] David: Someone else has to. Why? Cause we all eat. Shoutout to Trap House. But you know, we're having this conversation of guns and gun control, and why this is such a bigger problem and taking it in a little bit larger scope and then bringing it back home because that's all you'll ever know. And whether you're listening to in Chicago with us or you're somewhere else, you're looking at your community, you're looking at what's around you, and you're seeing how these issues develop within your community. You have communities like Charleston, in South Carolina, that, I don't know of another incident where someone came in and literally shot up a fucking church, you know? And sometimes it takes that. The Parkland kids, all these lists of spaces that we can talk about that have been affected by it. I think Chicago and other large metropolitan cities deal with it in a much different way. Sadly, we kind of become numb to like, they just- these two kids got shot up just the other day down here on 63rd and whatever. You're just like, damn, because that's the norm. We were hanging out with Tay the other day. Shout out to Tay Savage, but we were literally hanging out and he was just telling us a story about his boys across the street. You just like, yeah he was just literally just chilling, he got shot up. Cops came through, they just put a thing over him cause they don't wanna deal with it. But we also have to understand that in that we got the other side; so we got these orgs, we got people putting in work, like our friends at March For Our Lives, in the UK doing her thing. Do you know when she'll be back? Where she at right now?
[00:59:36] Caullen: I'm assuming- I have no idea.
[00:59:37] David: All right. We're shouting you out, wherever you out. And so sadly it's in our culture. That the best thing we can do is work to defund and demilitarize the policies that we have right now. And so the example that we're given is No Cop Academy. Rahm's trying to build this 95 million cop academy in the west side of Garfield Park. Why? I don't fucking know. Do we got the money? We shouldn't- you've been closing down schools and trauma centers and hospitals, and defunding programs that people on the other side of the world are trying to fund to help motherfuckers deal with trauma and yada yada yada. And so you have people putting in work. And it's always about connecting yourself. Sometimes we feel like, well, what can I do? I'm in butt-fuck nowhere, I wanna make an impact- and you can make an impact. It's like every single person here has the ability to have the internet. And with the internet, you got social media. You can connect with groups from all over the world. And that's, I think one of the most beautiful things.
And with that, it's like, we were talking about, oh yeah, mass shootings, yada yada yada. I really feel that we are more exposed to it simply because anyone can record a shooting now. It's like back in the day like, oh, did you hear about blah, blah? Oh, they got shot up? Like, why, blah? Now you can literally be like, oh look at this fucking video, I'm putting it on Facebook. Someone else sees that shit, everyone sees it. Everyone sees it. And I think we have to constantly make sure that we're using technology to our advantage. Especially in this day and age. Yeah, it's gonna get bad before it gets better. But the goal is that we got each other. And we all eat.
[01:01:11] Caullen: Of recording shootings, like themselves?
[01:01:13] David: No, not necessarily recording shootings. I think that we've been exposed to more of that type of shooting because of social media.
[01:01:18] Caullen: Okay, I'm thinking of like, okay, sure sure. Like the visual.
[01:01:21] David: No, I'm not saying you record shootings. I mean, if there's shooting happening-
[01:01:25] Caullen: But with police and stuff, you cop watch and then you might get something which has happened several times, unfortunately. Yeah, I think you're right. I think the connection we can have through social media through very hardcore activism, as well as using the tools of our day to connect with folks. Using art, to connect with folks. Whether that be here, me listening to some drill rap, and then listening to some UK drill and understanding their problems through that milieu. And then knowing Temi and then learning about how she's doing that work, trying to alleviate that pain. But her understanding of where these UK drill rappers are coming from, just like lots of activists in Chicago, understand where Tay and some of the other folks are coming from, but also trying to alleviate that trauma that happened in the first place. And it's messy and it's nuance, but there's a way to do it. And again, that's a holistic approach. The approach to violence and gun violence, particularly in America, is a holistic approach. And I think it starts with the narrative. Like you said, it starts as the narrative thing. It starts with whatever you have at your disposal, whether that be informing yourself or using your skills on how to get that narrative out there. Then looking at the actionable steps you can take to start that process. And it will not happen in our generation. It will not happen quickly.
[01:02:35] David: I mean, well, you don't know that.
[01:02:36] Caullen: I mean, as far as the end of goal. I think we can make great strides in our administration in our generation.
[01:02:44] David: Caullen, 2020.
[01:02:44] Caullen: And I think we're getting into that now, but it's not gonna come easy. It's not gonna come easy. There's forces against us that have power and money and resources. But we can collaborate in order to give the people power.
[01:02:59] David: Yeah. And that's really- and it starts with establishing dialogue
[01:03:02] Caullen: over throw the bourgeoisie.
[01:03:03] David: We said shit's gonna get bad, but having spaces in which for us to communicate- and I think you have a very valid point when you said that we, as an American society, have not had a real discussion yet about what the fuck means that our second amendment, the second thing on our, whatever that runs our country is literally the right to bear arms. And that we've- I don't wanna say we've manipulated it, but I think we've allowed it to manipulated.
[01:03:32] Caullen: We have manipulated it.
[01:03:33] David: No, because I think it was- when they wrote it, it was valid. Like, yeah, we all wanna be strapped. That's fine. But I think no one understood where guns were gonna go.
[01:03:43] Caullen: I can see that. And then it was like, it took how long to reload a gun to shoot? Where now it's like, you can kill-
[01:03:49] David: it was more like a statement to me. If you're shooting someone with a gun-
[01:03:52] Caullen: it was like, we came from- our nation was founded on- essentially terrorists.
[01:03:58] David: They went around raping everyone.
[01:04:03] Caullen: Which it is what it is. But they knew there needed to be a space to- especially then since states rights were such a big thing- I'm talking about pre civil war when the states had so much power. It's like, we need to have a well oiled militia ready in case we need to fight against the state. If it gets corrupt- which it is- or other things. And then that's very much the Panther's mentality, as far as the state is corrupt, the state hates Black people. We have all these examples of how, and so we're gonna use the state's policy not against them- but to watch them, keep them in check. So I think their way of bearing arms is a lot different than a lot of folks today. But that's all to say that- the second amendment, that's how it started. But now it's co-opted as far as, I should be able to have a gun because the Constitution, Bill of Rights says I can have a gun. When it's like, but do you understand the impetus? The origins of it? And so, again, it's part of understanding our history.
I talked earlier about having these conversations about the Civil War and about slavery and genocide against the native peoples and all that. And that's all true, but also, let's look at the second amendment- why we had that, and actually read the second amendment. And read the words about militia, and what the militia means, and why it was necessary. But there's definitely a deeper conversation that needs to happen there as well. But we need to have a conversation about our history and where these things come from, and understand how we've changed. And how all that stuff is- not necessarily invalid, but needs to have a revamp. A 21st century revamp.
[01:05:31] David: Wait, but can countries do that, Caullen? Can you just like, go in and change a constitution?
[01:05:36] Caullen: Countries do it. Turkey did it. And dudes fucking- China did it. Dudes. They can, and they have. Not that I'm saying there's not cons to rewriting the constitution, cause who gets to do that? What are their interests? All that. However, 2018 is much different from 1776. And so-
[01:05:57] David: I like that you got that year, I'm impressed.
[01:05:58] Caullen: Oh, I know my shit son. So we need to have conversations about these things; valid comprehensive conversations, honest conversations, conversations that have everyone at the table. I think that's a part I meant to mention earlier about these "put down the guns" and these, all this kind of bullshit rhetoric around gun problems, is like, talk to the shooters. The community knows who's doing these things most of the time. But they don't wanna get got. So having this conversation with folks who are actually on the ground experiencing or contributing to some of the violence, that's who needs to be at these discussions. And for the folks who actually can have money influence to understand where they're coming from, and actually look at the- again, systemic problems that interpersonal violence and intercommunal violence comes from. Again, you need to be holistic. I'm gonna say that a million times.
[01:06:47] David: No, that's okay. But wherever you're at- and that's how you start. You start building these dialogues with people. And then you look for organizations, you look for other people, you use the internet and social media, and put yourself to a large organization. Cause that's what it is. You find something you're really about, and there's gonna be someone else who thinks like you. And at this point in time, we're all pushing or hoping to push for some sort of change, for progress. Because at the end of the day, we also are tired of having bodies die for literally just dumb shit. Just dumb shit. And a lot of it can be averted. A lot of it isn't necessary. But we need to have tools at our disposal in order for us to make it until tomorrow.
As always from Bourbon 'n BrownTown, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer,
[01:07:48] Caullen: stay tuned, stay turnt.
[01:07:51] David: We out. See you next time.
OUTRO
(music credits) Outro song PROM / KING by Saba.
David: Bourbon 'n BrownTown is engineered by Genta Tamashiro. For more credits, information on episode guests, related media and topics check out the episode notes. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Bourbon 'n BrownTown, Twitter @BourbonnBrwnTwn. Or visit soapboxpo.com/podcast
[01:40:28] Caullen: For any and all things Soapbox Productions and Organizing, follow us @soapboxpo on all social media and visit soapboxpo.com.