BrownTown travels to CH Distillery in West Loop, Chicago to talk drinking, distilling, and dialectics with Head Blender Tyrus Yamagiwa. Tyrus walks BrownTown through his journey blending bourbon for Jeppson's Bourbon who acquired the Chicago famous Malört beverage in 2018. The gang discuss blending 101, bourbon preferences, "breaking bread" with community over a shared practice, Marxist dialectical materialism, compulsory drinking culture and more! They even take some sips of Jeppson's finest. Salud! Originally recorded December 23, 2024.
BrownTown travels to CH Distillery in West Loop, Chicago to talk drinking, distilling, and dialectics with Head Blender Tyrus Yamagiwa. Tyrus walks BrownTown through his journey blending bourbon for Jeppson's Bourbon who acquired the Chicago famous Malört beverage in 2018. The gang discuss blending 101, bourbon preferences, "breaking bread" with community over a shared practice, Marxist dialectical materialism, compulsory drinking culture and more! They even take some sips of Jeppson's finest. Salud! Originally recorded December 23, 2024.
GUEST
Tyrus started at CH Distillery in 2015 and is now the Head Blender for Jeppson's Bourbon. He started brewing beer on his own before learning bourbon blending from friends and future colleagues. Follow Tyrus on Instagram and Twitter.
Visit CH Distillery in West Loop, Chicago, and follow them on Facebook and Instagram. Visit Jeppson's Bourbon site and the Malört site and Linktree. Catch more of Tyrus and CH on the Key in the Lake Podcast, Storytime Podcast, and their article in InsideHook.
--
CREDITS: Intro music A Bar Song (Tipsy) by Shaboozey. Outro music A Waltz for Old Jeppson (Carl's Theme) AKA The Malört Song by Archie Powell and The Experts (YouTube, Spotify). Audio engineered by Kiera Battles. Episode photo by Antonio Frausto, Partner at CH Distillery.
--
Bourbon ’n BrownTown
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Site | Linktree | Patreon
SoapBox Productions and Organizing, 501(c)3
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Site | Linktree | Support
BrownTown travels to CH Distillery in West Loop, Chicago to talk drinking, distilling, and dialectics with Head Blender Tyrus Yamagiwa. Tyrus walks BrownTown through his journey blending bourbon for Jeppson's Bourbon who acquired the Chicago famous Malört beverage in 2018. The gang discuss blending 101, bourbon preferences, "breaking bread" with community over a shared practice, Marxist dialectical materialism, compulsory drinking culture and more! They even take some sips of Jeppson's finest. Salud! Originally recorded December 23, 2024.
INTRO
Music A Bar Song (Tipsy) by Shaboozey.
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:12.920] - David
I want to welcome everyone to another installment Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy, David. Coming to you from CH Distillery with my boy, Caullen. Caullen, man, how are you doing today?
[00:01:23.450] - Caullen
I'm feeling decent. I'm feeling decent. Which, if you've listened to the past couple of episodes, I have not been feeling decent. So this is an improvement, if you will.
[00:01:31.460] - David
He's reflected on this.
[00:01:32.780] - Caullen
Reflected a little bit, yeah. No, I'm feeling decent. It's the holiday season. We're still working, but other folks are not. So it's making me happy for them. You know what I mean? It's getting colder outside. No, I'm feeling good. Feeling good and hopeful, which has not always been the sentiment this year.
[00:01:53.610] - Caullen
I feel like part of the reason I'm feeling hopeful is because I think myself, Soapbox, David, you, we've connected with new folks for the past couple of months, and it's been really grounding in a way; in all the chaos that is the world and other things we've talked about in the past couple of weeks. I think we like to ground ourselves in the community and say that a lot and I feel like I felt it more frequently, more often than I have earlier in the year. So I'm excited to bring this conversation, which may be seemingly more lighter than our other conversations, into the new year and really look for 2025 in a positive light. How are you feeling? How are you coming into the space? Speaking of the space, where are we right now, David?
[00:02:35.760] - David
As I mentioned, we are at CH Distillery, which is super exciting. It must be because we're in a new space, a new head space- there's new energies around, we're feeling differently about a lot of things. To your point, I guess feeling differently in terms of being hopeful. I mean, this relationship, I'm just thinking about the word "CH Distillery"- not to get too into it, but for our audience members, I heard it back in 2015, and it was a vodka company or something. So I was like, alright, cool. To fast forward to us here sitting where we're at, I don't know, it's fucking dope. It's a great feeling. It's a great feeling to feel and blessed to be with the people who we're feeling it with.
[00:03:19.080] - David
Yeah, to your point of why we do this and how we do this, very intentionally. It hasn't just been for no reason. All of this has been with intent and purpose. And I think sometimes people forget. People just think, Oh, well, it's just fucking... No, no, there's thought, there's process, and then there's manifestation and intent to putting it together. That's definitely how we're feeling. It's definitely how we're feeling. But what about you, Caullen? Just talking about CH Distillery before we get into our guest. How are you connected to this space?
[00:03:51.250] - Caullen
I'm fortunate to coach Tony, who's a partner at CH Distillery at CrossTown Fitness.
[00:03:56.948] - David
Shoutout!
[00:03:57.470] - Caullen
And met him through CrossTown- I started teaching in the West Loop- cH Distillery is in the West Loop as well. And I think I caught wind that he worked here and I was like, "Oh, shit. I got a podcast, it has bourbon in the title. You want to give us some free booze?" He's like, "Yeah, come through. We'll shoot you guys in." I'm like, "alright, bet!" David, you know I'm annoying with email and text, so followed up, and then we came through, had some drinks, had a meal, talked to Tony a little bit, and really got this sense of his love for CH Distillery and for what he does.
[00:04:26.950] - Caullen
David, you have worked- you have worked, and still work in some capacity in food service and bartending and things and stuff, too, so I know that's a big part of your life. And I've learned about this world a little bit through you as well. I think there's this bigger idea as far as breaking bread or just being around people, around something that you all enjoy. And you're choosing to. Something coming into this recording as well as just Bourbon 'n BrownTown in general- obviously, bourbon is in the name. We drink while we're having this conversations. Sometimes y'all don't always know, but it's happening. And I think this idea of compulsory drinking and how our society is built around drinking in a toxic way. We'll get to that later on as far as how we- who choose to drink very intentionally and specifically, battle that idea at the same time in this conversation.
[00:05:12.860] - Caullen
But shoutout to Tony. He's why we're in this space, and he introduced us to our guest today. On the breaking bread and dialoging component, there's this idea, philosophical idea, Marxist idea of dialectics and opposing views and getting to how you go from two poles of ideas to find a synthesis. And then, through a Marxist perspective, looking at capitalism, and seeing how and why we are in these literal and figurative machines that make us do things that are against our human nature. Not to get too much into that row, but that's always a sprinkle. There's always a Marx critique sprinkle on the thing.
[00:05:48.940] - Caullen
And so before we go too much further, before I ramble too much more, I want to introduce our guest, Tyrus Yamagiwa. Tyrus is Jeppson's master blender here at CH Distillery. Gang gang gang.... And I want to invite him to the space, which is really his, so it's kinda we're inviting him to the space that we are also guests in. Because we already feel at home, that's what it's all about. But, Tyrus, how are you doing?
[00:06:14.910] - Tyrus
Well, thanks for having me! I'm doing well. The one thing I want to get at with what you said about me, I'm not a master blender. And that's one thing that I like to emphasize because there are master blenders that have dedicated their livelihoods to what they do, who were taught by masters before them. Where I came into the space, and we were starting a bourbon line for Jeppson's- we make Malört for those who don't know- and we wanted to start a bourbon line in 2020. And bourbon is my thing. That's what I drink before anything else, so I wanted to head up that program. But to call me a master is not... I don't fit that title. Not "just," but I am the Bourbon Blender for Jeppson's.
[00:07:11.360] - David
My man's humble. We appreciate that, dude. Appreciate the information, too, because I'm pretty sure most of our listeners do not know. It's not common knowledge, but the more people know, the more people can get- there's a reason why the spirits that are in front of us are still in front of us. And oftentimes, when we look at something like Malört for all of our Chicagoans, you know what a Malört shot, even if you don't know what a Malört shot is. You know what I'm saying?
[00:07:37.410] - Tyrus
You've at least heard of it.
[00:07:39.060] - David
Well, or probably had- if you've ever been an adult, you probably had one. If you've worked within the industry, you probably have Malört shots. One of my boys, I don't know if he does this or what ended up happening to it, but he ended up... You go to a shot, it's like, Oh, what can I get you? Oh, give me a Malört. At first, I think he would do it fucking with people, but then he got to a point where that's- you ask him what he wants to shoot, he wants to shoot Malört.
[00:08:01.480] - Caullen
His palate changed. He's like, No, actually, I want this.
[00:08:03.070] - David
You feel what I'm saying? It's fucking wild. I'm so excited to get into the nitty-gritty. But, Tyrus, could you give some of our listeners maybe a little bit more information outside of the bourbon lane here? How did you get into it? Why did you get into it?
[00:08:18.650] - Tyrus
My original goal or passion back in the day was craft beer.
[00:08:26.730] - David
Brewskis.
[00:08:27.340] - Caullen
Typical.
[00:08:28.330] - Tyrus
2023, 2024 that was the hype; craft beer was on the rise. But at that time, the market was relatively new in the sense that getting a job in the industry, you either needed to have a background in it or you needed to know people. And I had neither of those things at the time. I "taught myself" how to home brew. Nowadays, people said I didn't know what I was doing, but it got me interested in the industry.
[00:09:03.580] - David
It got somebody fucked up, right?
[00:09:04.830] - David
Yeah. I mean, I brewed some things, but they were not good at all. But like I was telling you guys earlier, it was right place, right time. My buddy Kevin McDonald, he was the first distiller at CH Distillery and opened it with Tremaine. And he got a call while we were brewing in my garage, and he's like, "well, a spot opened." And I go, "dude, get me in. I'll do whatever it takes, just get me in. I need a foot in the door." And two weeks later, I started at CH. So it was pretty easy in that sense. Kevin is now a doctor. He took the MCATs for the hell of it and destroyed them.
[00:09:49.660] - Caullen
Shoutout, Kevin.
[00:09:50.050] - Tyrus
But yeah, I've been there going on 10 years now. This July will be 10 years. And yeah, it's been awesome. It's been a ride for sure.
[00:10:01.400] - Caullen
So when it comes to... I have so many questions about the industry, about whiskey, about bourbon. I don't know where to go, but I guess I'm curious when it comes to CH Distillery and what you do as far as blending, Can you break down, just on a base level, what those are? And how the process of production of making a bottle of a craft- or of a bourbon, specifically, works?
[00:10:29.000] - Tyrus
My process, when I'm blending for our shelf bourbons, what's sold in stores, and then we also make restaurant or bar-specific bottles that are just larger and a little bit lower proof. But when I'm blending those, I'm literally drilling in the barrels with a drill, pulling samples, and essentially filling a table and trying them. I'll taste 30 or so barrels a day. In my first round of tasting, it's either a yes or no. Is it good? Is it not? Then I'll shrink the size a little bit just to dwindle down as many as I can until I find 30 to 40 barrels that I do like. And then from there, I'll try them again, blend them all. And then I'll start picking out where I want to add character or take some away if it's too much.
[00:11:31.910] - Tyrus
And we source from different producers, so that'll allow me to pick one from here and one from there if I want to change a specific character or get it more oaky, sweeter, lighter, I know what to choose from in order to get that. And then blend them all, and then we'll cut it down to 100 proof, so that's 50%. That's for the shelf bourbons. Then for the bourbon that goes to bars, we cut it down to 90 proof.
[00:12:05.070] - Caullen
Is that new information for you, David?
[00:12:06.210] - David
Yeah, I'm processing that information. Granted, I know Caullen's teasing, but my whole... Working in restaurants, there's a certain level of education that comes with it. For us, it was mainly wine at the moment. And so understanding that, there were some spirit lessons. Really being able to break down distinctions between Scotch and whiskeys and cognacs. But this is definitely next level, so I appreciate you sharing this information with us.
[00:12:36.900] - Tyrus
Yeah, no problem.
[00:12:37.430] - David
I would be curious. I know you, guests can't see, but you brought a bottle with you?
[00:12:41.340] - Tyrus
I did!
[00:12:41.970] - David
Could you tell folks what it is that you brought?
[00:12:45.060] - David
Yeah. I brought a bottle of a small batch blend that I did. I blended, I think, six or seven barrels of bourbon from Indiana. Indiana is one of the states that we source our bourbon from. MGP, most people that drink bourbon know Indiana equals MGP. They're one of the larger producers. But with this one, I know. Oh, no, that's not Indiana. I'm sorry, it's actually Kentucky.
[00:13:18.670] - Caullen
Man Tyrus said, "Fuck Indiana."
[00:13:19.850] - Tyrus
My bad.
[00:13:21.240] - David
Don't worry about it.
[00:13:21.380] - Tyrus
So we sourced these barrels from Kentucky and blended them. And then after I blended them, I refilled the barrels that I pulled them from, so the blended product went into them, and I added two spirals- or staves of Amburana wood. Amburana wood is a hard Brazilian wood that has characteristics of cinnamon and baking spices. Pretty seasonal. I've tried a few that were on the market that I didn't necessarily care for.
[00:14:05.480] - Caullen
Sure.
[00:14:07.180] - Tyrus
So I thought, maybe let's try it and see how it goes. And I'm really proud of this. Aged it on the Amburana for two months, and the final proof came out to be 123- so it's 61.5%.
[00:14:25.380] - Caullen
Ooohh, oh oh! Y'all, we out here!
[00:14:27.550] - Tyrus
So whenever I do these small batches or even these single barrels, I'll always leave them at its full proof cast strength. Because me, as the producer, I like to give you guys as the consumer the option to add a cube, add drops of water, or do whatever you want to the pour, but you know you're still drinking what you poured in your glass. As opposed to a 40% bourbon or 45% bourbon, where if you add water or ice cube, it tastes like bourbon-y water. So I like to just give options. But I get that question a lot. Like, Why are these always so high? I'm like, Well, you're getting more bang for your buck in that bottle, so..
[00:15:18.460] - Caullen
Right.
[00:15:20.420] - David
So you're welcome.
[00:15:22.860] - Caullen
If you don't like it, then you have to cut it.
[00:15:25.470]
[audio clip from O.T. Genasis "Cut It"]
[00:15:26.150] - David
Thank you for having that. And I'm just seeing this next to the other bottle that Tony was so kind to share with Bourbon 'n BrownTown. Could you give a little insight to folks who can't see that bottle, what that first bottle is? In distinction to the one you have? Because we're going to be doing a little tasting in a moment.
[00:15:44.580] - Tyrus
Yeah, definitely. So this first bottle is from Indiana, from MGP. That was a five-year bourbon at the time. And you could tell, you guys can't see that are listening, but our original label for our bourbon, it looked very similar to the Malört label, and that confused a lot of consumers, and we were getting a lot of flak for that. I loved the original label, but it was necessary to change. So yeah, that's a five-year bourbon. Nothing added, just straight from the barrel. It's compared to the pour that I brought, it's a little lighter in color, and that's due to the age, and could be from its aging conditions as well- Kentucky is a little warmer. The Kentucky pour that I brought, the small batch pour that I brought for these guys, that was a blend of six-year bourbons blended together and then aged for an additional two months on Amburana wood. You could see that it's a little darker.
[00:16:58.760] - David
A little more of a red hue. Kinda orange hue there.
[00:17:01.960] - Tyrus
Yeah. It packs a bigger punch for sure.
[00:17:04.570] - David
Packs a bigger punch. What is your natural protocol for a tasting of this sort?
[00:17:10.870] - Tyrus
For bourbon, I'll take the snifter, and the first thing you'll do is nose it. Smell it. You get character, and a large part of tasting is your smell, without that, you're screwed. So, yeah, understand what you're smelling. You don't really have to understand it, but get what you're smelling. A lot of times, if you don't like the nose, the pore may follow; or it may be completely different, but that's where you start with. And then you'll take a sip.
[00:17:46.250] - Caullen
Cheers, gang.
[00:17:47.660] - Tyrus
Cheers, guys. Yeah, you taste it. It's very clean, not a whole long finish on it. It's got some bite to it, has some sweetness.
[00:17:59.870] - Caullen
Yes, the sweetness at the end is almost like cherry comes in?
[00:18:05.880] - Tyrus
Yeah, you're saying the right thing.
[00:18:07.660] - Caullen
There we go. Yeah!
[00:18:08.330] - Tyrus
For sure.
[00:18:10.380] - David
Definitely more of a mild feel than this first thing that we've been drinking, for sure.
[00:18:15.140] - Tyrus
The second one?
[00:18:18.280] - David
Yeah yeah yeah.
[00:18:18.720] - Tyrus
Yeah. The second one, on the nose- can you smell the cinnamon characteristics?
[00:18:25.830] - David
Oh, yeah. Much more like- I'm thinking holidays.
[00:18:28.510] - Caullen
*laughing* It's giving Christmas.
[00:18:33.440] - Tyrus
Then this Amburana pour, if you want to go high and low notes, it's got a lot more depth to it. A lot more oak and char from the barrel, and then that Amburana just sits in there, in the middle of it all.
[00:18:51.290] - David
Before we get deeper into the Bourbon 'n BrownTown podcast, I just have a curious question. Do you have a favorite type of cocktail that you'll do your bourbon with?
[00:18:59.210] - Tyrus
Old fashions.
[00:19:00.180] - David
Old fashions.
[00:19:00.730] - Tyrus
I have two "tests" that I do before finalizing a batch that I'm blending. One of them has to be... It needs to be able to be consumed neat, enjoyed neat. So neat is-
[00:19:20.140] - David
As we are.
[00:19:20.550] - Tyrus
So neat is straight pour into a glass, no ice, no water, nothing.
[00:19:25.100] - Caullen
No bullshit.
[00:19:25.630] - Tyrus
Yeah. Just sip it as it is. And if I don't like I'll rework it. Then the second one is just a straight old-school, old fashioned. If it can't do both of those, I will rework the recipe until it does. That is how I like to consume bourbon, and a lot of consumers do as well. But for me, those are just two really good tests to see if I want to release it or not.
[00:19:57.880] - David
I love it. You muddle your cherry, or you use sugar?
[00:20:02.360] - Tyrus
No, we're not from Wisconsin.
[00:20:03.690] - Caullen
Damn!
[00:20:04.730] - Tyrus
We don't do that.
[00:20:05.670] - David
*heavy Wisconsin accent* Wisconsin, old fashions. Fucking dying.
[00:20:08.980] - Tyrus
No muddling.
[00:20:09.970] - David
I'm fucking dead. Thank you. Go ahead.
[00:20:12.370] - Caullen
This is awesome. I think for me as a person, just seeing-
[00:20:18.460] - David
As a consumer.
[00:20:18.980] - Caullen
As a consumer, but not just- of all the things. Talking to someone or seeing someone work through their craft, I think it's fascinating me. It's nice seeing that joy and passion, that knowledge there. Because like I said, we enjoy bourbon, we know a little bit about a little bit, but we're not that tier we want to be. So it's just cool hearing you talk through it and the notes and the spices and the taste and where that comes from as far as the wood itself and where it is and the climate.
[00:20:45.820] - David
And the why because you're like, No, I don't want this one to linger in your mouth, that's not what I want right now. You know what I'm saying? That's fucking sick.
[00:20:51.310] - Caullen
Yeah. And then there's that process, which I, on paper know, but hearing you talk about it as different, and hopefully for listeners as well. But then pairing that with- heh, "pairing that"... Pairing that with how you're releasing a bottle with a higher proof and why that is. David, to your point. And having the consumer have some agency and autonomy in how they want to partake in it in a certain way. And having some suggestions and requests for how they can maybe do that to get the best out of it. But there's a connection there, I think. You're thinking about yourself and what you would like, but also people in the same time.
[00:21:32.070] - Tyrus
Yeah. I think a lot of... The way my mind works is, I'm thinking as a consumer first. That's what I was for a majority of my life and what I would want out of certain bottles is what I'm doing. And then, yeah, a lot of people ask, How did you get into this? You asked me. With bourbon, I tell everyone I was very fortunate to have really generous friends who had awesome, awesome rare bottles that were just like, "Yeah, try whatever you want." So my education didn't come from really studying or anything, it came from drinking. And that's what I tell people, like, If you want to learn more about bourbon, just try different ones all the time. And then you'll start to understand like, Oh, this region or where this bourbon comes from. A lot of these have the same characteristics. Indiana, you know what to expect. And then, yeah, from there, you just build your knowledge. And like anything else, more practice, you get "better at it".
[00:22:41.770] - Caullen
I want to take that quote out of context. "Indiana, you know what to expect." *laughing*. We're okay, we be like that.
[00:22:47.810] - David
What it does sound like, though, you also had the ability to have a group of people who also were supportive, it seems.
[00:22:58.700] - Tyrus
Yeah, I've been very blessed in that sense.
[00:22:59.430] - David
Because it's not only like, Hey, go ahead, open up fucking my expensive bottles, my aged shit. It's like, it seems like you also came with right questions at the right time to your point. Right questions, right time, right people. That's awesome because I think Caullen started the episode- and just thinking of what community looks like for different people. It doesn't look the same for everybody. It's cool to hear how it was with the homies, kinda being like, more finessed into how you wanted to craft it. Now, at this point, you're saying decade in, you built your own identity in the game at this point.
[00:23:31.190] - Tyrus
Yeah, trying to.
[00:23:31.800] - David
Which is exciting. I mean, you're here with us, so... *laughing* We go with anything.
[00:23:37.200] - Caullen
I'm curious about... I'm learning that there's worlds of everything, and I'm curious about just from what I saw from other shows you've been on or just dig into the meat of the YouTube-verse and other things as far as this whole world of whiskey enthusiasts. Obviously, you work in the industry, so it's different, but whiskey enthusiasts, bourbon enthusiasts, I'm curious what that world looks like as far as focusing on each other: like meetups, groups, clubs, on the online community. I don't know how much you're involved in that or not. But I've seen that with Tiki drinks has a whole community behind those, I just didn't know, but I'm also not surprised.
[00:24:17.830] - David
Tiki drinks go hard.
[00:24:17.830] - Caullen
I think we all are in our own worlds of certain interests and stuff.
[00:24:21.130] - Tyrus
For sure.
[00:24:22.050] - Caullen
We may not realize that everyone isn't in it either. I'm just curious as to what you have found community to look like, connected to, but outside of CH, as far as folks who love whiskey as much as you do and have it- have grown their palate like you have, or not, but just enjoy drinking and tasting, talking, communing around and be able to talk- I don't want to say intelligently about it, but talk to a different level than I could or somebody doesn't-
[00:24:51.010] - David
A layman.
[00:24:51.130] - Caullen
A layman, yeah.
[00:24:52.550] - Tyrus
There's a ton of community in this industry or this beverage- around this beverage. A lot of them- the single barrel that I did, a lot of groups have started because of single barrels. A single barrel is one barrel of bourbon that a group will come in, taste, and then I'll dump it, bottle it for them at full proof. But there are a lot of bourbon groups that are around because of their enthusiasm for bourbons. So a lot of these single barrels that I do, they're just groups of dudes and women that just love bourbon, and they'll find a store to middleman these sales of the barrel.
[00:25:45.990] - Tyrus
And as time goes on, more and more of these groups are popping up, more whiskey tastings and meetings are happening, dinners surrounded by or surrounding bourbon or whiskey. And as I'm going on with my career, it's starting to blend into the culinary scene, too. So I'm getting to meet a lot of chefs, talking with them and doing these small dinners and stuff. So, yeah, the community is growing for sure. And it's in the midst of everything that's going on in the world, bourbon is a common ground for a lot of people. And we could just talk and not argue about all this other shit that's happening. And that is something that I enjoy about it, where everyone puts everything to the side and let's just drink, talk, and hang out.
[00:26:52.450] - Tyrus
I like the community that comes with this. I got into this, or a big thing that sticks with me is my grandfather had said at one time, For the price of a beer, it's worth a friendship- or a friendship is worth the price of a beer. Saying, Go buy people drinks. You never know who you'll meet over a beverage. And I've met a lot of random people who are now friends because of that. So it's something that I've embraced for a lot of my life. We're a drinking family. I've made community around this beverage. Met a lot of great people.
[00:27:42.140] - Caullen
David, where's your mind at? I saw your eyes light up a little bit.
[00:27:44.540] - David
Well, no, I mean, I'm just hearing it. Caullen named, for info, again, my game is in the industry. And I had the opportunity to work at the Rosebuds back when they were popping. You know what I'm saying? We understood the level of what we were serving to people. Why motherfuckers were spending 50, 60, 80, 120 dollars on a two-ounce pour. There was always that information, this like, Yo, you see them? What he just ordered? Naww- you know what I'm saying- type of of conversation connected to it.
[00:28:16.500] - David
But what I'm really connecting with is your conversation of who you meet in these spaces. Who you meet doing that game. That's where my mind's at, Caullen, in terms of just community and just remembering- it's always the holiday, so we're always in that mindset anyway. But just really hearing your words and them really resonating with me.
[00:28:33.440] - Tyrus
You never know who you're going to meet. And if you don't like the dude, you could walk away because you're in a bar. That's the nice part about it.
[00:28:40.690] - David
Hey, thanks, man.
[00:28:41.950] - Tyrus
But it's worth putting yourself out there, talking to people. That's the one thing I tell people is, go schmooze. I learned that years ago. Where like, you may not want to go out, but people see it and people take notice. And you never know who you'll meet or what will happen because you just put yourself out there.
[00:29:06.450] - Caullen
I mentioned this at the beginning of the conversation, something I'm thinking about the past couple of years as far as, I have not thought about dry January. Never been a thing I've thought about.
[00:29:16.970] - David
What does that mean? No, I'm just kidding.
[00:29:18.600] - Tyrus
Yeah, seriously.
[00:29:18.600] - Caullen
I guess what I'm trying to say is like, I've never thought about really doing that. Not really interested in it. Alcohol isn't a vice for me, something I see as a toxic way. Or has taken me down any path that has been unhealthy for my lifestyle or for my life. That's not the case for everybody, right. And as I'm playing with that idea and the idea of the compulsory nature of drinking. But also when- from what you guys have just shared and what I have experienced and shared earlier in the conversation is, I use this term "breaking bread", just very generally. You can break whatever you need, anything that's common. As far as what's important is putting yourself out there, like you said, Tyrus. And trying to be in a space that people are also open to communing, no matter what that is. For us who are choosing this, choosing to drink bourbon specifically and like it and enjoy it, it's different. I like that, but that's not the world we live in.
[00:30:18.320] - Caullen
So I'm like, how do we... Not that it's our responsibility necessarily, but I think it's good that bars and restaurants have NA menus and stuff and tasty beverage for folks who may not want to drink alcohol for whatever reason that is, but there's still a space to do that. Whereas years ago, that was not the case. It was like, Why aren't you drinking? It's a thing that folks I know who don't drinks.
[00:30:40.860] - David
Oh, yeah, the mocktail.
[00:30:41.430] - Caullen
I think that's not okay. I think we all agree with that, too. But I'm just thinking of this idea- I don't think it's a paradox either, but this idea of living in a world where we can commune around things like bourbon, like whiskey, like alcohol more broadly, and have space for everyone to be at that table, literally and figuratively. And just have- uplift and diversify the idea of breaking bread over X and finding that common ground. Not really a question there. Just something that's top of my mind, and I wanted to name, especially in this moment.
[00:31:14.520] - David
Well, I mean, I think it's crazy. So talk about capitalism- I never had a thing against mocktails. The reason it was, I was a server in the Gold Coast, and mocktails were $6, and the Grey Goose Espresso Martini that we just featured is $22. So I want you to order the Espresso Martini, fam. I don't need you ordering no fucking mocktails. You want a soda? Get down the block! That's really how we were feeling, though. Why? Because it's like, Oh, I get 20% of everything they spend. My idea as a server, as a bartender, you're taught, you want to make the most bang for your buck? And I'm always service with a smile type attitude. Kill them with kindness for sure. I don't know. That was my first... I'm just thinking about what you said, Caullen. My first interaction with mocktails. It's like, Well, if I don't want alcohol, I'll have an horchata or something.
[00:32:06.670] - Caullen
You just won't have-
[00:32:07.260] - David
Something that is not alcohol. For me, it was always very interesting. But again, I don't come from a drinking family. I come from a religious cult-type family. So alcohol was actually something that was like, No, it's the diablo. You know what I'm saying? And/or everyone who was partaking in alcohol came with problems, came with these issues that-
[00:32:28.960] - Caullen
You see these extremes.
[00:32:30.130] - David
You assume is the alcohol. But no, it's like, Yo, my family, he had this issue with or without the alcohol
[00:32:33.390] - Caullen
He had some trauma!
[00:32:35.170] - David
I think that's what I think, Caullen, you were scratching at on the surface in terms of how you brought us into this conversation about dialectic dialogs. I don't know. So I'm curious, T, what has been some of your experiences in that? In terms of mocktails or service, but also just talking to motherfuckers around what Caullen mentioned in terms of What if people aren't bourbon fans? You know what I'm saying? Is there still a space for that? Do you see that as part of the community? And I am curious what your thoughts are on mocktails.
[00:33:08.110] - Tyrus
With the people that I know, yes, there is still a space. They're drinking mocktails because they were heavy drinkers or want to take a break or whatever. So, yeah, there is a space, and maybe not necessarily around alcohol, but there is that common ground where we're in an establishment that is making these things, mocktails or whatever. And over the years, mocktails are starting to get more credit, more-
[00:33:51.960] - David
Last one I saw, it was like $12. I was like, Oh, $12 for a mocktail? But they're adding more things to it.
[00:33:56.650] - Caullen
They're taking it seriously. There's a market for it, right, talking about capitalism. More people want and demand it, so they're making it for, which maybe shouldn't have been the case earlier. Maybe people wouldn't have felt so compelled to have to drink if they didn't want to or were kinda on the fence about it.
[00:34:10.860] - Tyrus
There's sometimes now when I go to restaurants and I'll look at what mocktails are being served, and I'm like, damn, that legit sounds good.
[00:34:19.200] - David
They have some creative.
[00:34:20.220] - Caullen
Can you add bourbon to this one?
[00:34:21.170] - Tyrus
Yeah. There's so much going on.
[00:34:23.640] - David
He brings his own bourbon.
[00:34:25.060] - Caullen
It's a pocket bourbon, let's go!
[00:34:26.070] - Tyrus
But no, I appreciate that it's being taken a little more seriously, and the same amount of care is being put into these mocktails nowadays as cocktails. I do think that's important because it shows their level of care being put into that glass.
[00:34:54.020] - David
I'm curious, but wanted to inquire more, what does that world look like in terms of... I don't want to use self-care because I feel like that's a *ppbbt* word at this point.
[00:35:02.900] - Tyrus
Cannabis?
[00:35:03.020] - David
What did you say?
[00:35:04.570] - Tyrus
Cannabis?
[00:35:05.740] - David
Cannabis?! Wait, how does that work?
[00:35:07.830] - Tyrus
They will not drink, but you supplement with other things and that tends to be a lot of fun.
[00:35:15.060] - David
Okay. Well, I was just more curious on what do you feel the landscape looks like within folks like yourselves in terms of taking care of yourself? I think Caullen was touching that as well in terms of: we're consuming this, but to a certain degree, we understand the physical harms that it carries, such as tobacco, such as marijuana, such as whatever recreational things we want to take- knowingly that we take and digest them. I was actually just more curious in terms of what does the landscape look like for y'all in terms of taking care of yourselves? Or are you partaking of no Dry January?
[00:35:52.670] - Tyrus
No, I can do a better job of that. Definitely. For a lot of us in the industry, it can be difficult at times because everything that we're doing revolves around drinking. For me, personally, I have hard core social anxiety most of the time in groups of new people. So with those things, unfortunately, I'm drinking just to get those nerves out. But yeah, I could do a better job of taking care of myself in that sense.
[00:36:33.370] - David
For sure. I appreciate you bringing in the personal. I was definitely more curious in the landscape of some of your peers and what you hear from more of the setting. But I definitely hear-
[00:36:43.330] - Tyrus
A lot of them just do it because it's Dry January. It's just the thing to do.
[00:36:47.510] - David
It is the thing. Okay, cool. Caullen's not like-
[00:36:50.220] - Tyrus
Everyone will say- No, they'll say they need to take breaks, but if there wasn't a thing called "Dry January"
[00:37:00.638] - Caullen
Air quotes.
[00:37:00.800] - Tyrus
No, they wouldn't be doing it. Some will just take a break for a week or two. But it's not a bad thing. But the title, Dry January, I think makes it easy for people to be like, oh.
[00:37:18.850] - David
To participate.
[00:37:19.350] - Tyrus
Okay. Everyone else is doing it, I'll do it.
[00:37:22.820] - David
Thank you for sharing all that, Tyrus. I think that's cool, it's important, but it's also, I don't know, it's part of it.
[00:37:28.310] - Tyrus
Yeah.
[00:37:28.860] - David
Again, we drink for various reasons, but as you mentioned, you named social anxiety being a situation. I'm curious, Caullen, if there's been experiences or how you come into alcohol. He said he comes from a drinking family.
[00:37:42.500] - Caullen
Oh, yeah. I guess I haven't shared too much.
[00:37:44.650] - David
Oh, you can't fucking do nothing. What about you?
[00:37:46.550] - Caullen
I didn't really drink really until college. I don't think it's super crazy. In high school, I had a beer or two at a party.
[00:37:54.210] - David
Did your family have alcohol or nothing? Or what?
[00:37:56.080] - Caullen
My family drank, but my parents didn't drink- I didn't grow up seeing them drink. We'd be like, family reunion or a thing or something. It's the holidays, maybe my mom has some wine and my dad has a beer or something like that, and I would clock that. But it wasn't like, Oh, my gosh. You know what I mean? Like I said, maybe in high school I had a beer or two at parties or whatever. Played beer pong a lot, that was more about the sport versus the actual drinking.
[00:38:22.790] - David
The competition.
[00:38:24.850] - Caullen
You know what I mean? College, I actually remember the first time I actually got drunk in college. When we have shitty Kool-Aid and vodka type shit. But I was sitting down drinking, we went to a party, I stood up and I was like, Oh, things feel different. I saw my friend from class in the street and we were like, Oh my God, what's up? What's up? I'm so happy! I'm like, Why is this? Then my friend got punched and it was a weird night. But.... Really until... Then I would drink socially after college or whatever and knew I like darker liquor, but not really- my taste hadn't evolved that much. I knew that, which was fine.
[00:38:58.550] - David
So this is when I'm meeting you then? In life?
[00:39:00.760] - Caullen
A little bit. Yeah, a little bit. But I think it wasn't my taste for... I mean, obviously, we drank bourbon earlier on when we started the podcast. Because David and I would dialectic- we'd drink bourbon or whatever before we started the podcast. Started the podcast and stuff.
[00:39:20.700] - David
Because we lived together.
[00:39:21.640] - Caullen
Yeah, we lived together. Then earlier on we were trying to find sponsors- we had like, one episode done. We were like, we probably should do better episodes before we start trying to get sponsors. But during COVID, I was net drinking more, as it were. It was lockdown.
[00:39:37.630] - David
2020, we weren't doing shit.
[00:39:38.780] - Caullen
But it was just like we were in and I had a glass of a bourbon or something here or there. Then I noticed after lockdown was over, I wasn't home a lot. Uprisings started, we were out in the streets doing everything. In summer 2020, I was like, Oh, what was something I could buy and be fine with? Like a Maker's Mark or something before, I'm like, I don't want that anymore. I feel like I can taste the difference. For me, it's a quality between before COVID to after COVID. Oh, man, I think my taste has evolved. Which is great because I feel like I can taste something. I can pull some of the nodes of what I'm tasting or the quality of it. But also, fuck, this costs more.
[00:40:12.560] - David
What do you drink? Can you tell me?
[00:40:14.770] - Caullen
I think my go-to for price point is Knob Creek.
[00:40:18.340] - David
Okay.
[00:40:19.090] - Caullen
I'm looking at Tyrus and like, Is that okay? Is he going to judge me?
[00:40:21.410] - Tyrus
What I say is you is, Like what you like. I don't care what it costs- I do care what it costs because I can educate you and maybe point you in a direction of something cheaper. Not necessarily-
[00:40:33.740] - David
Affordable.
[00:40:33.740] - Tyrus
If you're buying Knob Creek. But these higher-end things, a lot of these people are just chasing-
[00:40:40.380] - Caullen
Like, Oh, it costs this much, it must be...
[00:40:42.800] - Tyrus
Yeah, the rarity and just the clout for it.
[00:40:48.330] - David
Or the name.
[00:40:49.410] - Tyrus
What we serve is what everyone else is buying and sourcing, but we charge a little less. It's the same stuff. But name. Name carries a lot. And that's tough. It's tough in this industry when people see Jeppson's and they're like, I don't want that shit, there's Malört in it. I'm like, no. If you read the label, there's not. And also, if you know what's up, this is the same juice as 30 other distilleries. But a large part about what I do, I like educating people and showing them that you don't need to chase certain things. If you're chasing a flavor profile, then chase that. But don't chase names because that'll cost you a lot, and you may not like it.
[00:41:49.060] - Caullen
Cost you more with less satisfaction than chasing what you actually...
[00:41:52.290] - Tyrus
For me, it feels better spending less but enjoying a pour more. There's something for everyone in the bourbon industry, and you don't need to get the really expensive stuff at all times.
[00:42:09.740] - Caullen
The thread I'm pulling here, too, is just that with society being compulsory drinking, and for folks choosing what they want and why they want it- on a broad scale, but also what you're saying, too, as far as folks who are chasing a name or something just because of that and being, again, told that to a certain extent.
[00:42:27.600] - David
Dom Pérignon. Get the Dom Pérignon.
[00:42:28.900] - Caullen
Exactly. Versus choosing what you actually want. There's an idea of choosing and being educated about something and choosing it intentionally, which I think is important in all walks of life. There's an invisible hand there that points to you, go chase for this thing, have this thing for either what it looks like, how much money you're spending, or how you're told you have to be in society; which isn't fair and takes away your autonomy to a certain extent.
[00:42:54.360] - Caullen
Well, I guess all that's to say is just I think in all walks of life, especially what we're talking about now, it's important for folks to have autonomy over how they want to engage with bourbon or with each other and have some shared space that feels safe in a way. You mentioned earlier about what you've experienced with folks coming together around bourbon and putting outside worldly stuff aside to engage in ways that feel really good. I know that's a thing people do, and that's not me. I want to drink and talk about all the things. But in spaces that it feels good to do that.
[00:43:31.720] - Tyrus
Where you're safe.
[00:43:31.720] - Caullen
Yeah, I feel safe, but I feel like I'm learning something. I'm maybe challenging folks, folks are challenging me. But for Caullen, for how I want to engage, normally it is about all those things. It is connecting all the mundane to the "highly" political and stuff, too. That's how I like to engage. And I feel like I can sort those spaces out because I overthink a lot. I've tried to put myself in spaces where I can sit that out and do that in a way. Or because I'm also petty, find spaces that won't be welcomed and then just throw a bomb in the ring and see what happens.
[00:44:03.560] - Caullen
But that didn't happen overnight. I had to unlearn a lot about how society wanted me to participate in everyday interactions as a political actor, as a Black man in this country, through all the ways. But I also like to drink with my friends and hang out with anybody else. It's nice hearing you say that. I think the idea of dialectics and opposing things on paper, it's like, you like to go into spaces and maybe drink and put stuff aside; I like to bring things in. I don't think that's actually conflicting, I think it actually just speaks to autonomy and choosing and curating a safe space around yourself and others that feels good and you're still learning and growing in a certain way. I wanted to name that as far as I like this, but also these actually are the same thread, I feel like.
[00:44:47.860] - Tyrus
Yeah, for sure. Oh, for sure. I've been around people where that stuff does come up, the things that are controversial and whatnot. But I normally just-
[00:44:59.990] - Caullen
Homer Simpson in the bushes.
[00:45:01.330] - Tyrus
Yeah, go to the side and listen. I listen a lot.
[00:45:05.410] - Caullen
And folks should do a lot more of that. Myself included. But it's like, listening will get you a long way.
[00:45:12.780] - Tyrus
Yeah. Especially if I'm drinking, I don't want to say anything that will get me in trouble or hurt someone's feelings. So I'll talk to you sober about the more pressing things. But yeah, no, if I'm drinking, I probably shouldn't be talking about politics and stuff.
[00:45:33.730] - David
Well, I love that. To me, I'm hearing a lot of my peers, a lot of my colleagues who are very similar, who are very similar, who often... If I show up to a bar, they'll be like, Oh, you better not be on with that bullshit. I'm paraphrasing for real. You know what I'm saying?
[00:45:50.790] - Caullen
Give us that real!
[00:45:52.110] - David
Well, not like...
[00:45:53.020] - Caullen
Who said it?
[00:45:54.120] - David
Like, Berwyn, 16th Tap, knows plenty of David that we don't need to add. But I don't know. I'm in between both of you. You know what I'm saying? Because I think there are certain moments, at least in this level of the game, that I think it's dangerous sometimes if we choose to remain silent. You know what I'm saying? And conflicting things.
[00:46:16.420] - Tyrus
For sure.
[00:46:16.520] - Caullen
There's nuance and context.
[00:46:17.380] - David
One of the things that one of our colleagues brought into the Soapbox space that I really appreciate that I'm taking forward is awkward community, you know what I'm saying? Or being uncomfortable with community members sometimes. I'm sure- and I'm curious, and I want to translate this maybe more into the process. How many people do you work with in terms of blending the stuff you do?
[00:46:42.560] - Tyrus
In terms of blending, I'm the only one.
[00:46:46.250] - Caullen
By myself all day.
[00:46:47.580] - Tyrus
For production for our Malört facility, there's five of us.
[00:46:55.200] - David
Five of y'all.
[00:46:56.790] - Tyrus
And a production manager. That makes all the Malört, bourbon, vodka, gin, rum.
[00:47:02.250] - David
Well, actually, so before we get into the question I want, I do want listeners to... In terms of us being here, again, we talked about being intentional. One of those reasons is that Malört is Chicago-based. So I was curious if you could give our listeners a little insight into the history of Malört, and then maybe even blending that into like, CH coming and taking it forward.
[00:47:22.520] - Caullen
Oooh, "blending that", I see what she did there! Look at my boy, he's on fire today!
[00:47:26.190] - Tyrus
So Malört, it came to fruition in 1933.
[00:47:31.992] - Caullen
Facts!
[00:47:32.370] - Tyrus
It was sold throughout Prohibition, door-to-door to Swedish immigrants as medicine, essentially. Started in Chicago. Carl Jeppson brought it to the owner of a liquor company, and they started making it. Before we purchased the company, for the past 30, 35 years, it was contract distilled in Florida.
[00:48:06.663]
Boooooo.
[00:48:07.320] - Tyrus
All we wanted to do originally was get the contract to bring it back home to make it here. And the previous owner was like, well, I think I want to retire now, so how about you just buy it? Essentially. And we had 20s, what, 17, 18, we got it and started making it here. Our production facility is two miles south of where we are right now, directly two miles south.
[00:48:42.910] - Tyrus
But cool little sidebar- we have space in Pilsen, and we built a processing facility, built a distillery on the land. But we also bought an old building from the original Schoenhofen Brewery. And Schoenhofen was Chicago's oldest brewery, I think started in the late 1800s. And there was one day that I was driving by the building with my uncle, and he pointed at the building that we bought, old red building. And he goes, Hey, you know your grandpa used to package beer there? And I go, What?! He goes, Yeah, after the war, he worked at the brewery and packaged beer for the brewery. I go, We own that building. I'm in there every single day trying bourbon. Like, What?! He's like, Yeah, your grandpa worked there. So yeah, after World War II, a lot of Japanese moved to Chicago because it was "nicer" to the Japanese at the time.
[00:49:50.280] - Caullen
I've heard that before. *coughs* Great Migration.
[00:49:52.160] - David
That was one of the jobs that he got. And yeah, coincidentally, whatever, 80 years later, I'm in that building every single day.
[00:50:03.840] - Caullen
How does that feel?
[00:50:04.620] - Tyrus
Awesome! Awesome. I bonded with my grandpa drinking Old Style's on his porch. That's what we used to do. So it's awesome.
[00:50:15.420] - Caullen
That's so amazing. Both my grandfathers passed away before I was of drinking age or really drinking much at all. But yeah, it's like, hearing that from you is just a really cool story. Then also connecting- what we do on this podcast a lot is connecting, again, worldly big stuff, wars, genocide, politics, to everyday interpersonal relationships. When I hear that about your grandfather after the war, this happened with Japanese folks and stuff. Hearing that, then also your uncle just mentioning that casually like, Oh, BT Dubs. It's like how these come about. So it's just- thanks for sharing that in this space, particularly, because I think we think about that and talk about that a lot. As far as our own stories of development, just in general, but as actors in this world trying to make it a better place.
[00:51:04.140] - Caullen
With this idea of Malört- I don't want to take away too much from that story. But I know David, you're from Chicago; I'm a transplant, I've been here 15 years. What's your relationship with Chicago?
[00:51:16.300] - Tyrus
Born and raised.
[00:51:17.590] - Caullen
Because that comes about with Malört. I moved here, I was like, What the hell is Malört? And then had to learn that way.
[00:51:22.720] - David
You never had a shot?!
[00:51:23.180] - Caullen
The transplant journey, right!
[00:51:25.300] - David
You don't sip it, you shoot it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. Go ahead.
[00:51:28.860] - Caullen
But I was just curious- Yeah, just what your experience in the city, how that has shaped just you as a person in general? If there's anything there, then also adding Malört on top of that.
[00:51:40.690] - Tyrus
For sure. Yeah, born and raised here. My grandparents obviously moved here and then raised families, so I am part of that. Being raised here, and then especially with my grandparents, we- I would like to think we got a different point of view on life just because they went through so much and taught us. They were loving to everyone. I am a product of them. And yeah, they definitely... I'm fortunate to have the grandparents and parents that I did. But yeah, growing up in Chicago was awesome in the sense that there's so much diversity here, and you meet people under every... What category? Race, ethnicity, everything.
[00:52:45.510] - Caullen
Whatever the census says.
[00:52:49.120] - Tyrus
But yeah, born and raised here. I take a lot of pride here. The best city in the world, in my opinion.
[00:52:57.130] - Caullen
Hear that in New York?
[00:52:58.730] - Tyrus
I can't... No, Chicago's better.
[00:53:03.550] - David
I appreciate the info in terms of just like, y'all, and like, deciding to- not anchor yourself on Malört- I don't think that that's really what CH is doing. Because, again, I don't think I finished my story in terms of... So I was Ubering. Shoutout. And I was talking to somebody and they were like, "Oh, I work for CH Distillery." And I was like, "Oh, that's cool. I got a podcast"- it was very early B days- "Bourbon 'n BrownTown. We drink bourbon..." "Actually, so we don't have a bourbon right now, but we're in the process of working on making one." Here's my card. I was like, "alright, gang." I'm just thinking about the course of our timeline is like, when he was talking about- the person, because he was a white dude- talking about, Oh, we're starting to build that, and we're very interested in building our bourbon brand with CH Distillery. I'm like, Yo, that's cool because y'all got these other spirits, okay, that's very exciting. You are one of those players who they were referring to. You feel what I'm saying?
[00:53:59.280] - Caullen
Things go full circle. David mentioned first interaction with CH with someone here, but not really being able to follow up with them in a certain way. Me, I've been teaching at CrossTown Fitness since 2018, but I didn't teach regularly in the West Loop location, and that's when I started doing that. I started seeing Tony more often, knew he had the bourbon, knew he worked at CH Distillery. I think part of the CrossTown Games, the fitness events that CrossTown puts on, everyone's getting bourbon. Like, how's everybody getting bourbon?
[00:54:29.520] - David
Shoutout.
[00:54:30.280] - Caullen
Like, Oh, then I started talking to Tony. Then- you know what I mean? Next I start seeing him in class. It's like, these small things happen in work or school or our third place. You meet people. I think I and we, more broadly, take pride in this podcast, as well as Soapbox the larger film, activism entity because a lot of it is relationship-based. The art and the work we create and the workshops we do, we try to do it with care and really reflect on our own vulnerabilities and how we see the world, and how the world should be, but also being like, Hey, we might not get it right, and be open to feedback and stuff, too.
[00:55:08.130] - Caullen
We move in that way, but I think it all is based on relationships, which is why when they get fractured it hurts, it means a lot. But that's why we have to build up systems to prepare that. All that being said, I guess it's serendipitous to meet folks how we do. But again, this idea of dialectics, it also feels- not intentional because we didn't plan it, but it's meant to be in a certain extent. I'm not normally a "everything's meant to be person", but sometimes things just happen and you're like, "How the hell did that happen?"
[00:55:40.820] - David
That's what we do, son!
[00:55:41.940] - Caullen
Yeah. That's just fodder, but I appreciate hearing these stories and from the story with your grandfather to being in the factory and also just us being in this space literally right now, which is because of relationships and good vibes. You know what I mean? As we noted when we first reached out to you for the podcast, too, like with Tony, I was like, "Do you know what we talk about? We don't shy away from it. We're in it." But also we're just people in the world, too. We want to have a broader platform to bring folks in to understand this is all part of making the world a better place as far as communing, building relationships with folks and just having good energy and respecting people's humanity because that's not consistent.
[00:56:20.410] - Tyrus
It's not that difficult. On paper, it's not that difficult. That's why I don't talk in those situations where I'm like, "What the fuck are you?" I'm sorry. "What are you guys arguing about? What is going on? I'm just trying to chill and live life."
[00:56:39.150] - David
I honestly think that's the majority of humans. That's what we're getting at. You know what I'm saying? I think it's the camaraderie around a spirit. But I really appreciate about what you're naming. I connect this to opening an old-ass bottle of wine. I had an Italian friend, half-Italian friend. His name was Danilo, he's an old Italian dude, one of my oldest friends. I think it's very important to have intergenerational relationships.
[00:57:02.250] - Tyrus
Yeah.
[00:57:02.400] - Caullen
Say that.
[00:57:03.360] - David
He was like, he opened up- he popped a bottle of wine, sat it on the middle of the table, and everyone was thirsty to grab it. He's like, No. He like, poured a little sample. He said, "We got to let it sit for 30 minutes." "We can't touch that bottle, y'all got whatever you got, you can't do it." What I'm trying to connect here is the concept of process and procedure and the learning of it. I'm thinking about these small moments where I have used spirit as the connecting factor to my community. I think that's a lot of what Caullen is naming in the concept of choice.
[00:57:39.990] - David
But okay, with Danilo and this bottle, there's plenty of people when we're drinking this, people are like, "Well, just pour, just fucking pour, we'll drink it. It doesn't fucking matter." Versus Danilo is really holding something and he's fighting, in a way or other, people trying to break that process and procedure. I'm curious about what you see the future of your craft looking like? Specifically with everything we're seeing. Because as much as we want to be removed from it, it affects our everyday. You know what I'm saying? You as a person in your own world, yeah, sure. Not everybody connects you with CH Distillery. They connect you with their own imagination of that person.
[00:58:22.620] - David
I'm just curious on how you feel your craft and where you think it's moving in the next 5 to 10 years in the landscape that we're in?
[00:58:31.820] - Tyrus
Me, specifically?
[00:58:33.160] - David
You could add yourself into it. I'm more curious about just your craft, your craft, namely. Because I think it's not like you're doing wine, which is, I think, a much more quicker process, personally. It's just even time-wise. You're not doing... You know what I'm saying? You're not batching cocktails and shit. In your craft, how do you see your craft moving in the next 5 to 10 years with all the predicaments taking place?
[00:59:00.260] - Tyrus
I don't think it'll change.
[00:59:01.770] - David
It's not affected at all?
[00:59:03.270] - Tyrus
No.
[00:59:03.940] - David
Okay.
[00:59:06.810] - Tyrus
If anything, it'll grow, but that's just because of capitalism and whatnot. No, the roots are too deep for anything to change in bourbon, personally, that's what I think, personally.
[00:59:23.840] - David
Yeah. That's fair.
[00:59:25.670] - Tyrus
A lot of little guys are popping up because, just like we do, you could source your own bourbon and be your own blender. And there's more people with money nowadays.
[00:59:39.550] - David
I'm hearing that's not a bad thing?
[00:59:40.820] - Tyrus
No, it's not a bad thing. Because who am I to say that your process isn't right or wrong.
[00:59:48.630] - David
Well, I mean, again, we're talking about Danilo and holding that bottle of wine. I think there definitely are things that need to happen in order to create what you're creating. Or create what others create.
[00:59:58.410] - Tyrus
Oh, just the process in which... No, I don't think it'll change. Because in anything, there's always going to be a group that takes it seriously and then does not.
[01:00:09.550] - David
Okay.
[01:00:10.130] - Tyrus
But I don't have a problem with-
[01:00:13.410] - David
people not taking seriously.
[01:00:14.450] - Tyrus
How you do things. No. If I'm buying it, then maybe I'll recommend a certain way. But no, you're your own person; do whatever you want, honestly. If you enjoy my product, I don't care how you enjoy it. And as a producer, who am I to tell you as the consumer how to enjoy anything? It's all up to those people. I think people on my end tend to take things too seriously. Or they're like, "That's not how you do it. That's not how it's supposed to be done." They're just drinking, man. It all goes in the same place.
[01:00:59.200] - David
I'm, again, curiosity here- can you talk about what that actually looks like? Is it a specific technique? How many you blend? What would be the... What are you fighting motherfuckers on?
[01:01:12.620] - Tyrus
From producer to consumer, there's a lot of producers or big "true bourbon heads", true fans.
[01:01:28.650] - David
He used air quotes, y'all.
[01:01:30.010] - Tyrus
They'll give people shit for putting an ice cube in a pour.
[01:01:34.070] - David
Okay.
[01:01:35.270] - Tyrus
I will never do that. But if people ask me why, I like to educate them in the sense that when you add an ice to anything, it makes it colder.
[01:01:48.270] - David
Dilutes it.
[01:01:48.990] - Tyrus
No, not necessarily. But when your sample is cold, your taste buds, you're not going to get all of the flavor that is in the actual pour. So for instance, the reason there's so much sugar in ice cream is because they need to add so much more because it's a chilled product. That your taste buds can't recognize or register all of that sugar because it's so cold. If people take a pour of bourbon, yeah, and they say they put it over ice, I used to tear into it *screaming* so much!
[01:02:29.760] - Caullen
You're that dog: "it's fine" and everything is on fire around you.
[01:02:32.350] - Tyrus
Yeah! But now, as the producer, I'm like, well, they enjoy my product or this product either way. And they enjoy it. I don't care. That's their prerogative. People giving them shit for doing that is going to make them not want to buy that anymore, or they won't feel included. If you shun people or give them shit for doing things the way they want. Just let them be.
[01:03:05.720] - Caullen
I love this because I think it feels like a microcosm- for a lot of things, as I've been naming. But from what I'm hearing from you is that you might say, "Hey, here's why folks do it certain ways. Do what you want, but now that you know," again, you have autonomy, you can choose how you want to partake in this thing. And I feel like from what you're saying about folks being like, "No, that's not how you're supposed to!" Or when you were first coming up in the shits, you might have had that same reaction, but now you're like, "Hey, do what you want. You're partaking in it how you want to, that's cool." I interpret that as what David and I will say is coming to consciousness or growing politically in your mind, and you find out about all the horrible things America has done to all the people's...
[01:03:47.430] - David
What??
[01:03:47.520] - Caullen
Someone says like, Oh, this is-
[01:03:49.000] - David
They've done horrible things, bro? You didn't know, Tyrus. You didn't know??
[01:03:50.850] - Caullen
If someone doesn't know about something, like, *stuttering in argument*. I was that person when I was 14, 15, growing into consciousness for the first time. When I had to reshift for that several years ago, you get not angry with people, but you're like, "No, you have to know this thing. You have to know." And it's this knee-jerk reaction when you're first learning, coming into something. I think-
[01:04:13.470] - David
It's cause you're defensive.
[01:04:14.350] - Caullen
Kind of.
[01:04:15.190] - David
You care.
[01:04:15.670] - Caullen
You care, but the way it translates or comes out to folks isn't held with love and care. And it depends on who you're talking to, because sometimes I slip it like that, and I don't care. But I think when you become, I don't want to say politically mature, but mature in whatever facet we're talking about, it's like you can say, "Hey, you said this thing. I just want you to know, you hear these words, this is where it comes from. It's actually problematic or it's harmful in how this comes from." "Probably didn't know that, that's all cool. I'm just letting you know this is the bigger world is around something you said or believed in." Or like, "Hey, by the way, this law actually comes from this, and this is how it was formulated. It's actually to keep these people out of housing. It's called red-lining. But you might not know that. Just FYI. How do we move forward with this thing?" At least in my experience, and these are different examples, but I feel like the ideologies are similar as far as knowing a thing or thinking it has to be a certain way or giving folks more of a broader worldview on how something came to be and just inviting folks in, I want to say.
[01:05:21.520] - Caullen
Like, "Hey, this is actually the broader world of this. I was where you were at one point in time, happy to talk more about it, or if not, that's cool." I can have my own decision on how I want to engage with you in the future. I think part of this podcast and what we do with Soapbox is making connections with things that may seem not connected.
[01:05:40.470] - David
But they are.
[01:05:41.330] - Caullen
I argue it all is. I think that's part of the way as far as how folks that want to operate in intentionality and care and education in the world, those pathways look very similar no matter what it is. That can be bourbon, that can be grassroots organizing, that can be a lot of stuff.
[01:05:58.940] - Tyrus
I mean, it's all the same in terms of that process, I feel like. But yeah, all we can do, if you have an answer, the answer, the best we could do is educate people. What they do with it is up to them.
[01:06:14.790] - Caullen
Yeah.
[01:06:15.760] - Tyrus
Most of the time I'm okay with the outcome. I usually don't care.
[01:06:22.310] - David
I'm curious, you got any mentees? Is there a mentee under you right now? Or what does that look like? Is there a process for that? Are you thinking about it? Are we making you think about it?
[01:06:30.460] - Tyrus
Yeah. I haven't really thought about it in that sense. I do have a coworker that has been pretty green to the alcohol industry. But really smart kid that I think has a lot of potential, his passion is there. Great mind on him. Charles. Charles, you're a good dude.
[01:06:55.970] - Caullen
Shoutout Charles.
[01:06:56.190] - David
Charles, you're a good dude. Let's go!
[01:06:58.920] - Tyrus
Yeah. Other than that, not really. I have nieces and nephews, but they're way too young to get what I'm going through right now.
[01:07:06.140] - David
You're still doing... You're going to be mentoring in the next decade?
[01:07:10.050] - Tyrus
Yeah.
[01:07:10.390] - David
Enjoy this decade, mentees not yet.
[01:07:13.290] - Tyrus
Yeah. I'm still learning my stuff right now.
[01:07:15.980] - David
Okay. Well, man, we appreciate you having you on the pod. I think it's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you for breaking down a little bit of a tasting for us.
[01:07:23.080] - Tyrus
Yeah! Thanks for having me.
[01:07:24.530] - David
I think that's exciting. I'm glad to know that you don't hate your shit in cocktails, that's usually where- I was like, he probably hates the shit when motherfuckers make cocktails, you know what I'm saying?
[01:07:33.140] - Tyrus
You need a good product to make good cocktails.
[01:07:35.120] - Caullen
That's it.
[01:07:35.860] - David
You need a good product. I haven't made an old fashioned with yours just yet, but sipping and eating has been fantastic.
[01:07:43.880] - Tyrus
Thank you. I appreciate that.
[01:07:46.330] - Caullen
David putting ice cubes in his shit too, I'm like, "David, don't do it. That's wrong. David's that's wrong!"
[01:07:49.050] - David
I'm not going to lie to you... It's all about, to me also, it's about... We're talking about choosing, right. Oftentimes, when we have podcasts, the majority of our guests probably drink, but they are not drinkers.
[01:08:04.500] - Tyrus
Got it.
[01:08:05.200] - David
Let's define this.
[01:08:06.380] - Tyrus
I'm a drinker.
[01:08:07.460] - David
No, no, no. Heard, homie. Heard, homie. I think that also allows David to drink and.... Drink more. Not drink more, but the last thing we want to do with the podcast, and I just want to piggyback off of something Caullen was naming. He was like, We're not drinking bourbon because we want to get everyone on the pod to get fucked up. You know what I'm saying? Or we're not trying like, Oh, you get drunk, and then like, loose lips type mentality. That's never been an intention. At least, Caullen, I don't think that's ever been as to why. Nor do- Caullen and I suffer from anxiety on the mic. I don't think that's-
[01:08:44.680] - Caullen
Off the mic, it's bad.
[01:08:46.860] - David
So when we started thinking about why "Bourbon 'n BrownTown"?
[01:08:51.210] - Tyrus
Oh yeah, how did you come up with that name?
[01:08:54.150] - David
Long story short, "Bourbon", because he, at the time- and I thought you... It's so crazy because we met via Craigslist in 20.....
[01:09:02.540] - Caullen
14?
[01:09:04.490] - David
13.
[01:09:05.270] - Tyrus
Damn! So it worked out. Thankfully. That doesn't always end up like that!
[01:09:09.850] - David
I've been blessed on Craigslist, personally. I don't know about you.
[01:09:12.510] - Caullen
Likewise.
[01:09:13.010] - David
Yeah, Craigslist has been... So shoutout to-
[01:09:16.160] - Caullen
Shoutout to Craig!
[01:09:16.600] - David
Shoutout to Craig! No, but to that. And then I think we had moved to our second space living together. And I was at Jewel high as fuck with my homie, and there was a giant ape on top of the freezers. And so I bought one, brought one home. His name's Harambe, and he's actually the logo or our mascot. R.I.P. He's alive in our office, so you know what it is. But the concept there is still that. And not that like... Because it could have been "Tequila 'n Tamalcuchez", or I don't fucking know.... Go ahead, Caullen.
[01:09:51.880] - Caullen
That was only part of the structure of the podcast. But it was me, who's Black; David, Chicano; our homie Nabil, who's Pakistani. And so we're all Black and Browns.
[01:10:05.730] - Tyrus
That is essentially my group of friends.
[01:10:08.030] - Caullen
So we're like, alright our apartment...
[01:10:09.790] - David
So Genta Tamashiro, he was our audio engineer at the time, he's half Japanese.
[01:10:14.284] - Tyrus
Oh!!
[01:10:14.410] - David
We went to Columbia together here in the city, and so that's my boy. So I think you'd get along with his ass. Not because he's Japanese.
[01:10:22.450] - Caullen
Why, because he's Japanese? That's fucked! Damn, David!!!
[01:10:23.540] - David
I said it before Caullen did!!
[01:10:25.550] - Caullen
That's fucked up.
[01:10:26.360] - David
Fuck you. Go ahead, continue.
[01:10:27.510] - Caullen
That's fucked up. He's half Japanese, half white.
[01:10:30.340] - David
He loves to drink. No, he doesn't love to drink. Shoutout.
[01:10:34.420] - Caullen
I don't want to normalize whiteness: he's half Japanese, half white. We don't assume the other half is white because we normalize whiteness, so that's part of white supremacy. Anyway, it's a sidebar.
[01:10:41.130] - Caullen
Lesson, look at those little bars right there.
[01:10:43.400] - Caullen
Don't normalize white supremacy, y'all. It's how we got here in the first place. Anyway, no, part of it was like, Harambe is the mascot of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. But we called our apartment Brown Town before the podcast came along. I was doing Soapbox, David came along. Then I think part of what is cool, to me, about it is because I started fancying bourbon.
[01:11:04.115] - Tyrus
Cool.
[01:11:04.430] - Caullen
Post college or whatever. That was my go-to hard liquor to drink in capacity.
[01:11:08.910] - David
Yeah, we were all with bourbon.
[01:11:09.970] - Caullen
And so, I think David and I would talk a lot and learn about each other through what was happening in the world, through our own interests and stuff. We just had deeper conversations.
[01:11:19.230] - David
Being vulnerable to-
[01:11:20.220] - Caullen
Roommates and stuff. I think I would say at that point in the world, but also for us being pretty vulnerable, especially as cis-het men who are taught not to talk about feelings.
[01:11:31.930] - David
It happens at the third cup of Scotch. I know you hate Scotch. Fuck Scotch. But like, bourbon. Naw, I got you, my guy.
[01:11:40.270] - Caullen
So then he joined Soapbox. Then we were having more conversations about where we wanted Soapbox to go. I was like, Oh, we're fairly charismatic. Then having a little bit of ego, we're like, Hey, we should have a podcast. I'm a slut for alliteration, and so Bourbon 'n BrownTown just made sense. Then we had Harambe as part of that story. That was around when he was killed. Rest in Power, Harambe, fuck the little white boy. And it came about.
[01:12:06.670] - Caullen
I think in this bigger conversation we're talking about as far as producing and consuming bourbon and whiskey and just alcohol in general, the industry, politics, whatever, interpersonal relationships, safe spaces, community. It's like, that's kinda how the podcast came to be. There was somewhat of a container that could receive it in Soapbox, but it didn't exist prior to. It probably exist if I didn't meet him, if he didn't join Soapbox.
[01:12:32.290] - David
If I didn't know Genta.
[01:12:33.850] - Caullen
Again, if he didn't know Genta. I don't know how these fucking mics work. I know I had a budget for them and I pay for them. But as far as all this shit, I don't know, Kiera's in the back, holding it down on the ones and twos. I have to ask her all the questions about the audio stuff because I don't know what I'm talking about. We need each other to do stuff that we feel is fun and entertaining, but also does good in the world and is accessible to folks.
[01:12:54.610] - Caullen
I was looking up old Marx philosophy stuff from my grad school to talk about the dialectics for this episode. But also, ain't nobody care about that.
[01:13:03.599] - David
Well....well well...
[01:13:03.680] - Caullen
But- I won't say ain't nobody, but it's not going to reach everybody, which is fine. But also talking about things that look conflicting in our interactions with folks, but actually explain the synthesis of them in a real time, I think that does help in that processing of the world like that.
[01:13:19.650] - David
You're putting everything you read and heard into practice. That's the manifestation of it. Don't take that. You heard that, you listened to it, you read it all in preparation for it, that manifests in allowing us to do. Because when we talk about dialectics, there's a lot of components to it. We can get to the nitty-gritty. Caullen's clearly an academic, my guy. So if you ain't know.
[01:13:39.070] - Tyrus
Me, not so much.
[01:13:39.940] - David
Well, I did graduate, so I'm an academic of a sort.
[01:13:44.380] - Caullen
I made it.
[01:13:44.560] - David
I'm adjacent. Whatever. It doesn't fucking matter. But I think it's important, right, Caullen? So I don't want to… Let's uplift that in terms of even doing your own research. It's important for you to be able to have a critical mind to engage this shit, whether you're under the bourbon or over the bourbon, whatever you want to pick.
[01:14:04.130] - Caullen
Over the bourbon is crazy.
[01:14:05.250] - David
Over the bourbon is crazy. But this is truly exciting. I don't know. It's been super dope. We did want to give you an opportunity: any shoutouts or sends of love to the people during the holidays?
[01:14:19.570] - Caullen
Or a sends of hate. We name names on this podcast.
[01:14:22.870] - David
If Kendrick taught us anything, we don't hate enough. Alright? So go ahead, my guy.
[01:14:27.070] - Caullen
That's on the beat.
[01:14:29.600] - Tyrus
Shoutout to Tremaine Atkinson, the owner of CH Distillery.
[01:14:33.670] - David
Shoutout.
[01:14:34.210] - Tyrus
Giving me the chance, who had zero background. That is someone I will go to bat for. And the family for always supporting. That's Asian family. I'm Japanese, and stereotypically, the Asians are Dr. Good Grades. My dad was always like, "If you're going to do something, just be the best at it. I don't care what you do." So I'm like, Okay, I think I can do that.
[01:15:06.960] - Caullen
I don't see color, I didn't know you're Japanese.
[01:15:10.360] - Tyrus
I've had a lot of support. Friends, family, the owner's here. I'm very fortunate in my life.
[01:15:21.930] - David
That's what's up, my guy. And to that, we cheers. Alright. Caullen, any final words for the peoples?
[01:15:25.520] - Caullen
Shoutout to Tony for hooking us all up.
[01:15:27.260] - David
Shoutout to Tony.
[01:15:28.390] - Caullen
Shoutout to him in the short shorts. I'm out here.
[01:15:30.560] - Tyrus
Dude, yeah, you answered the door. I was like, Yo, it's 12 degrees outside, what are you doing?!
[01:15:35.990] - Caullen
My man gives no fucks. I love it. Naw, shoutout to community, people bringing other folks together.
[01:15:41.670] - Tyrus
Yeah. In the midst of all this bullshit, I have a good community around me.
[01:15:48.960] - David
That's important. That's how we're wrapping.
[01:15:50.490] - Tyrus
Not everyone does, though.
[01:15:52.510] - David
No. But the goal is to find it. The goal is to find it and then sink your teeth into it as you've done. With that, that's Bourbon 'n BrownTown for 2024. Much love to all of our listeners, to all of our people who support us. As always, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.
[01:16:09.970] - Caullen
Stay tuned, stay turnt.
[01:16:11.240] - David
We'll see you for the next one. Salúd!
[01:16:13.230] - Tyrus
Cheers, guys.
[01:16:13.640] - Caullen
Salúd
OUTRO
Music A Waltz for Old Jeppson (Carl's Theme) AKA The Malört Song by Archie Powell and The Experts