BrownTown takes on “Black Panther: Wakanda Forever” (2022) with Alderhomies Rossana Rodriguez (33rd) and Jessie Fuentes (26th) in the first for Whiskey & Watching installment of 2024! BrownTown and the return guests breakdown the film and its predecessor’s social impact and commentary on imperialism, geo-politics, science and spirituality, diasporic traditions, Black and Brown solidarity, and so much more. Originally recorded May 30, 2024.
BrownTown takes on “Black Panther: Wakanda Forever” (2022) with Alderhomies Rossana Rodriguez (33rd) and Jessie Fuentes (26th) in the first for Whiskey & Watching installment of 2024! BrownTown and the return guests breakdown the film and its predecessor’s social impact and commentary on imperialism, geo-politics, science and spirituality, diasporic traditions, Black and Brown solidarity, and so much more. Originally recorded May 30, 2024.
Mentioned in episode:
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GUESTS
Alderwoman Rossana Rodriguez (33rd), now in her second term, is the Chair of the Committee on Health and Human Relations for the Chicago City Council. Rossana was born and raised in Puerto Rico and started organizing at six years old when her community had to fight for access to running water. Organizing soon became a fundamental part of her life and remains her main tool within her work in government. Rossana came to Chicago after austerity and budget cuts forced her to leave her job as a drama teacher in Puerto Rico. She originally moved to Albany Park to work as a theatre director with a youth theatre company 14 years ago and chose to stay and organize around housing, education, immigrant rights, and mental health. She is the chief sponsor for the Treatment Not Trauma legislation and continues to organize with grassroots organizations to transform Chicago. Follow Rossana on Facebook, Instagram, (personal, political) and Twitter (personal, political). Stay up to date with her City Council work and 33rd ward services at Rossanafor33.org.
Alderperson Jessie Fuentes (26th) is a queer Latina grassroots organizer, educator, and public policy advocate with over a decade of experience in education, criminal justice reform, affordable housing, community development and sustainability. A lifelong Chicagoan and resident of the Northwest side, Jessie spent most of her formative years growing up and working in Humboldt Park. Through personal resilience, community support and restorative justice, Jessie turned her most traumatic life experiences into tools to uplift others facing similar circumstances. In her previous roles as an educator and Dean of Students at Roberto Clemente Community Academy and as an organizer around issues of violence prevention, housing affordability, and re-entry for returning citizens, she convened and connected community stakeholders to create community-driven solutions to the biggest problems facing Humboldt Park. Jessie recently served as the Director of Policy and Youth Advocacy at the Puerto Rican Cultural Center. She Co-chaired the Violence Prevention program of the Illinois Latino Agenda and is also a Founding Member of the Illinois Latino Agenda 2.0, focusing on community development and Latine equity. Follow Jessie on Facebook (personal, political), Instagram (personal, political), and Twitter (personal, political). Stay up to date with her City Council work and 26th ward at Jessiefor26thward.com.
Opinions on this episode only reflect David, Caullen, Rossana, and Jessie as individuals, not their organizations or places of work.
CREDITS: Intro soundbite and episode photo from Black Panther: Wakanda Forever trailer and outro music Con La Brisa by Ludwig Göransson from the movie's soundtrack. Audio engineered by Kiera Battles and Kassandra Borah.
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BrownTown takes on “Black Panther: Wakanda Forever” (2022) with Alderhomies Rossana Rodriguez (33rd) and Jessie Fuentes (26th) in the first for Whiskey & Watching installment of 2024! BrownTown and the return guests breakdown the film and its predecessor’s social impact and commentary on imperialism, geo-politics, science and spirituality, diasporic traditions, Black and Brown solidarity, and so much more. Originally recorded May 30, 2024.
INTRO
[00:01:42.630]
Audio clip from Black Panther: Wakanda Forever trailer
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:47.280] - David
I want to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. It's your boy David, coming to you from Harambe Studios in Chicago, Illinois. As always, with my boy, Caullen. Caullen, how are you doing today?
[00:01:57.360] - Caullen
I'm doing good. I think we need a... Because you say Harambe Studios, and I wanna- [hyped up] It's Harambe, nigga! The Chicago tag.
[00:02:04.850] - David
Give me my fucking-
[00:02:06.140] - Caullen
We need a Harambe one. We need to find a DJ friend, which I feel like we have a couple. Like, DJ Khalid, if you're out there, you can make DJ tags. We need a Harambe DJ tag. Also, rest in power, Harambe. The gorilla was killed eight years ago, I believe. I saw.
[00:02:18.330] - David
Seven, eight years ago. Sounds right.
[00:02:19.850] - Caullen
Yeah, something like that. So, shout out Harambe. White person came into his home.
[00:02:25.280] - David
His home.
[00:02:25.880] - Caullen
And HE was killed.
[00:02:26.410] - David
They killed him! They killed him.
[00:02:28.160] - Caullen
It's wild.
[00:02:28.970] - David
And he didn't even do nothing.
[00:02:29.790] - Caullen
He didn't even do nothing. He was just chilling. So, rest in peace to Harambe.
[00:02:32.640] - David
He was a live wild gorilla. You know what I'm saying? So, that's how it be. It be like that.
[00:02:36.200] - Caullen
Driving While Gorilla. To answer your question, I'm good. I haven't watched the film in a little bit. I know we'll get into all that, and so I was feeling a lot nervous. But even the pre-recording chatter has been fruitful, and so I'm excited about situating this theme and this film in this context now.
[00:02:58.180] - David
Well, Caullen, before we get there, can you tell folks what's special about this episode and why a movie? *glass clinks*
[00:03:05.240] - Caullen
Yeah. So we're doing a Whiskey 'n Watching. Watching Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. Context on Whiskey 'n Watching, if you all have not heard any previous episodes with other awesome guests, we had noticed that in Bourbon 'n BrownTown, I like decoding pop culture. David embraces pop culture, and likes to decode it as well. We have these heavy themes that we realize we're always putting movie references to these themes, or book references, or song references. And so we're like, Okay, pop culture needs to be taken seriously. No matter if it's a Marvel film to an Oscar-winning historical drama, it all codes our values and our systems all the time.
[00:03:38.730] - Caullen
I think art, as we know, is a powerful tool of resistance, as well as propaganda and colonization. And so it needs to be decoded at a high level. And so I've always held that near and dear as far as how I see the world and also in my entire academic career. And so we started this series, Whiskey 'n Watching. I feel like all our homies feel the same way as far as art and media and see the importance of it. We're lucky to have a community around us of folks who engage in those realms in really meaningful way.
[00:04:04.650] - David
I'm coming into this film pretty excited. I think these last few weeks- it's always interesting when you're processing everything taking place around you. And also then you have moments of celebration and love, and how you find a balance between grieving with your community, grieving with your people, but also your boy got married. You know what I'm saying? *wedding bells* How do we to balance the joy. And I think we've been doing it successfully, I think that's why we're making the steps and moves necessary. We're really excited, we're really filled with love. *sound of drink pouring*. I think that only reenvigors us, reenergizes us to be ready to spend time with your peoples and be there for when they need you. And so it's exciting. So with Wakanda Forever, we have two amazing guests, and we're going to let each of them introduce themselves. We'll start with our first.
[00:04:55.420] - Jessie
I appreciate you. Jessie Fuentes, alderperson of the 26th Ward. Youngest ever elected from my ward, first queer Boricua woman to represent Humboldt Park, Hermosa, Logan Square, Belmont, Craigin. A proud Boricua, born and raised in Humboldt Park, and super excited to be here today.
[00:05:14.920] - Rossana
Second Boricua here. *laughing*. Rossana Rodriguez-Sanchez. I am the alderperson of the 33rd Ward. I'm also the Chair of the Committee on Health and Human Relations. Yeah, and I'm very excited to be here.
[00:05:29.390] - David
We're so grateful for you all to be here with us. I think it's been really exciting- you've been on a couple of episodes with us. Kinda all like, politic, heavy civic engagement type base. Not that they haven't been fun, but I think this is a different opportunity. So I really appreciate you all joining in.
[00:05:43.650] - Rossana
And watch us bring politics into this space, too.
[00:05:46.470] - Caullen
Or was it already there?
[00:05:48.630] - Rossana
Or was it already there?? *laughing*
[00:05:52.230] - David
And so on this, we did name the movie already, right? Wakanda Forever. I'd love to go around in a circle and be like, What are you all- this film came out in 2022, so it's been a couple of years. But let's take folks back, Jessie, what do you recall about when this film first came out and how did you engage or not engage with it?
[00:06:10.660] - Jessie
Yeah. So I went to watch it in theater when it came out. And I also want to contextualize where Boricuas were in 2022. We were all in the midst of what it meant to live within a pandemic, Puerto Rico, several years before 2022 had Hurricane Maria devastate the island. We had financial corruption. We had the overthrowing of the governor by the people of Puerto Rico ever for the first time. And then you have the remembrance and the sentiments of what it meant to have someone like Donald Trump come to Puerto Rico and throw paper towels at people when a lot of folks felt like they were living on their last lifeline. And so as a Puerto Rican, I understood intimately the experience of colonialism. And we could go back, and we'll go back a ton as we go through the film.
[00:07:06.650] - Jessie
But I remember sitting and watching this film and thinking, I am watching an entire nation try to take over a people for a resource that they find valuable. And the tactics- and we'll get into the tactics of Wakanda Forever, but the tactics one is willing to take to get a resource from a people. And I remember sobbing in the theater. And I was like, this is what- I'm watching in live living color, in a theater, that millions of people across the world are also watching, the experience of colonialism. A story Boricuas have been trying to tell for a very long time, and Marvel is doing it in a real way, right? And I thought, this is one way of telling a story. And so how do we use pop culture and film to tell the story that I think is very real for people across the world? And we could talk about the geo-politics in the film in a bit, but it just felt so real to watch. And I was I was fully engulfed in the film, both physically and emotionally.
[00:08:19.680] - David
That's what's up. Rossana?
[00:08:23.200] - Rossana
I think Jessie's experience resonates a lot with my own experience of it. But I think I, in addition to all that Jessie shared, I would say that it was incredibly painful for me to watch the film. Because at that point, we were also in city council dealing with a lot of pain and racial divisions in the council. And we were seeing a lot of anti-immigrant sentiments. It was very painful throughout the movie to see two oppressed groups, two groups that have lost so much and had so much historical trauma, fighting each other for survival, essentially. I just felt like it resonated so much with what was happening in Chicago, where people were really triggered by the idea of fighting for resources. Thinking about the root of that, thinking about the historical roots of those divisions, it was very hard for me to sit through the movie. I think I cried the whole movie. I don't remember a moment that I was not actively like *sobbing sound*. And I think I still tear up when I watch it.
[00:09:49.470] - Rossana
I guess to me, it was also the reflection in how do we build solidarity? Where do we go so that we can see each other and we can see each other's pain and we can understand that the only way forward is healing together? I think that was mostly my experience with this movie.
[00:10:11.580] - David
What about you, C?
[00:10:12.960] - Caullen
I was going to say it wasn't that. But it definitely was a lot of what Rossana said as far as seeing the clear- I would argue to say infighting, the fighting that Black and Brown folks, nations in this capacity. I saw this pre-recording us in this room seeing it, to be very, very clear without being heavy-handed in this macro, fantastical context. And I'm curious about other audiences maybe not catching those, for us, clear lessons.
[00:10:35.200] - Caullen
I think you might know this, David, I saw this with a friend the opening night. And then I visited with my parents the next day, or two days later. I fly in, they're like, Oh, what are we going to do tonight? We're going to watch a movie. What are we going to watch? Wakanda Forever. I was like, I saw it yesterday. It was like, I sat down to watch cause I have questions and comments. I think about talking to my parents about things. I was in Florida visiting them on October 7th, so seeing the news come in, talking to them about the moment that we were in then and what was going to come and what had been the past nearly 80 years. And explaining the lies that we were seeing on the news and trying to put that in context and showing them things.
[00:11:08.330] - Caullen
And then this movie, watching this and pointing out certain things about the West and the CIA and white supremacy and the FBI and all that being intentional- and just seeing that manifest. They obviously know those things, but for me, I can't unsee it. I can't just enjoy the film and sit back. It's really really hard for me. I need folks to see those lessons. For me, it was like, How do we use this as a teaching tool type of thing? But also just understanding all the richness of it, seeing the pain, also seeing the beauty as well.
[00:11:35.650] - Caullen
Something I've been thinking about personally in the past couple of years, too, especially, just with forgiveness and grace and also anger and using that in a generative way. And then also not doing that. We'll get to it, of course, with the scene where Namor explains his origins. And he comes to the surface and tells people he's been colonized and enslaved, and he's like, Fuck it, burn everything down.
[00:11:56.630] - David
Put into a caste system.
[00:11:56.630] - Caullen
I'm like, Bro, yes! Fuck everybody!
[00:11:59.940]
[audio clip from the movie] A Spanish man of faith cursed me as he died by my hand. He called me "El Niño sin Amor," "the Child without Love." And I took my name from there. Namor, because I have no love for the surface world.
[00:12:26.640] - Caullen
So I'm just thinking about all those things and liberation practices versus theory and how it actually happens. And then we're seeing some of those things now as far as what revolution actually means and who's willing to throw down. And how you're willing to throw down and what you might risk or what the consequence of that may be.
[00:12:41.990] - David
That's wild. I saw it multiple times as well. After high school, going to the theater is more like, not necessarily a chore, but it's like, alright, I'm going to go to the theater. Alright, we got to parking, popcorn, it's a whole fucking thing. So if I'm going to go, I'm going to go.
[00:12:54.690] - Caullen
My girl wants cookie dough.... [crosstalk 00:12:55]
[00:12:57.610] - David
My whole thing is like, there's a Wendy's outside the one- the cinema I used to go to.
[00:13:01.990] - Caullen
Let's go!
[00:13:01.990] - David
You know what I'm saying? In the pockets and shit.
[00:13:03.750] - Caullen
Let's go! Your greasy ass pockets!
[00:13:06.300] - David
No, we put them back in the bag, come on now! Excuse me, sir. Naw..
[00:13:10.780] - Caullen
You got grease burns on your thighs.
[00:13:12.140] - David
We definitely seen it multiple times. I think, to me, it's like... I'm hearing everyone, and I definitely felt some of those things. But I think to me, I was just happy to see what I interpret as decent interpretation in a superhero movie. To me, that comes with Namor, that comes with Talokan and stuff- and we'll get to the nitty gritty. For me, it's like, I was fascinated by the decisions Ryan Coogler and other folks made in certain things, just on a movie perspective. But on the grandioses, I think we were mentioning- I don't know if we were recording already or not- but it was like, my little cousin want to be Namor after that. It was like, the representation in the Marvel Universe was, I wouldn't say to the level of Black Panther. Like when Black Panther first came out back in fucking 20something. But I think it only added to that.
[00:14:06.020] - David
The first few times I watched it, I watched it with just a kid excitement of watching someone who looks like me and talk like I do. I think it was just a really interesting decision from Marvel's end. Of Chadwick Boseman passes away due to some type of a cancer or something, it caught normal folks off guard. You're like, What the fuck? And so what Marvel does is kill Black Panther.
[00:14:32.490] - Caullen
Instead of recasting him or something.
[00:14:34.310] - David
Instead of recasting-
[00:14:35.570] - Caullen
Recasting Caullen, I could have, but it's fine..
[00:14:37.620] - David
Or some other folk. And I saw plenty of conversations around Superman. There's been seven different types of Superman. There's nine types of Batman. It's all these white guys. Their superhero doesn't die, but Chad dies, and so then they kill Black Panther? I don't know. Not that we have to go down that rabbit hole, but I'm just thinking of... Why they got to kill our superhero? That's just an honest question. I don't know how you all... Maybe I'm a little pissed off about it, but they could have just recasted the motherfucker, bro. They didn't have to kill him. You know what I'm saying?
[00:15:09.030] - Jessie
Nah...
[00:15:09.260] - David
I mean, go ahead.
[00:15:11.110] - Caullen
I have thoughts, but I think-
[00:15:12.200] - David
What do you mean?
[00:15:13.080] - Caullen
Jessie, you were reacting before I was.
[00:15:14.740] - Jessie
Well, absolutely. Look, I think Black Panther was the superhero that we all admired and embodied because it was Chadwick. I want to be clear. It wasn't the character of Marvel, Chadwick made Black Panther. Had it been anyone else, I don't know if there would be this synthetic love for a character like Black Panther. I, in fact, respect the director and the writers of Black Panther for killing the character when we lost Chadwick as a legendary actor because that was to respect him and his contributions to Black Panther.
[00:15:53.420] - Rossana
But then in the movie, it is reclaimed, right? Because at the end of the movie, his sister becomes a Black Panther as well.
[00:16:04.320] - Caullen
Spoiler alert!
[00:16:04.320] - Rossana
It becomes bigger then, right? It is a power that we can have.
[00:16:13.320] - David
I mean, ain't Reeve- who is one of the Supermans that fell off a horse and couldn't walk? They didn't do that to the real Superman! I don't know, man. Whatever.
[00:16:20.950] - Caullen
I think a moment means something too.
[00:16:21.940] - David
You feel what I'm saying? No, go ahead.
[00:16:23.700] - Caullen
I think it does this thing that does two, on the surface, paradoxical things at the same time. It, one, honors his Chadwick Boseman as Black Panther, honors his portrayal, honors his commitment to the role, commitment to what the role means culturally. I think he knew that from jump. Two, to Rossana's point, it does make it more general as far as anyone can have this power. It can be anyone's. It's still his sister, it's still in the family. It's a Black woman this time. What does this power actually mean? It shows, I think, in a way that we see superheroes now, I think they're peop-... they're Living beings. I can't say people because sometimes they're not human. But they're living beings with thoughts, feelings, emotions, everything; they're nuanced characters, they're three-dimensional.
[00:17:06.660] - Caullen
I think that's what good storytelling does no matter what. It's like, this hero we had died. That's the most vulnerable in a certain way. And so how does this hero as an idea, as a power, live on? It lives on through his sister, at least as a physical embodiment, but it's bigger than that. As we know, you can kill a revolutionary or you can't kill a revolution. I think that's encoded in there whether they try to or not.
[00:17:30.943] - David
Okay okay.
[00:17:31.240] - Caullen
But I do see what you're saying, too. Is there a thread about whiteness, white supremacy always living on in this one thing? Maybe. Maybe that's his weakness, and that's how we win.
[00:17:40.348] - Rossana
Yes!!
[00:17:40.510] - Caullen
Their playbook, we know what it is every time. Does it keep working? In certain ways, yeah cause it has as much power and resources, but it's the same shit. We can... Real niggas don't die, we diversify.
[00:17:52.010] - David
Yo. I'm hearing you, because I am thinking about... Again, I think some of us forget the impact that Black Panther had on the world. The Wakanda Forever- sports people started... You know what I'm saying? The way it just infiltrated everyday lives, I think, is powerful. I'm hearing that a little better. I'm hearing that. I think that just makes me even more emotional about the homage that Marvel gave Chad as an actor, but also the way they gave it to Black Panther. Even the shot, because you have the ceremony of just the family, it's somber and it's sad, but then you have the ceremony of Wakanda. I don't know if it's joyous, but it's like, yeah, it's a dance, it's a song.
[00:18:32.720] - Caullen
We are celebrating this person.
[00:18:33.720] - Rossana
We were working together at Campos when that happened, and I remember that the young people of Campos went to watch the movie, and it was such a big deal. I remember that. And I remember how full our hearts were because all of a sudden, all of these Black and Brown children were going to go see a superhero movie with somebody that looked like them. And it was huge.
[00:18:57.840] - Jessie
I remember young Black and Brown- and Rossana and I worked together in an alternative high school where a lot of young Black and Brown folks... And at that time, overwhelming majority of the population was also young men. Where these young men came back from watching that movie and the crossing of your hands across your chest became how they greeted each other in the hallway. They had embodied what it meant to be this Black role model taking care of a people, and really fighting systems of oppression that sought to disable your nation, your land, your resources. It made an impact.
[00:19:38.390] - Rossana
It was really huge.
[00:19:38.390] - David
What I really appreciate about this film is definitely one of those films you can watch it multiple times. There's other things that you grasp. There's other levels, other things that are either from just a filmmaking standpoint, a creative standpoint. I know it did its tour in terms of being able to win a couple of Oscars. I don't know if it necessarily had the same level of impact as Black Panther did, but I do think it did a good job of maintaining that status quo. We appreciate seeing the same characters.
[00:20:09.240] - David
The other level that I want to start taking us to is, the representations that we see. When we talk about oftentimes at Bourbon 'n BrownTown, representation doesn't necessarily mean everything, but it is a marker to start viewing things. I think with this, we saw Black Panther, namely a Black cast. This one, a lot of the Latino actors were actually Latinos, which was nice! It wasn't like a white boy trying to be- like Jake Gyllenhaal trying to be-
[00:20:34.000] - Rossana
And Indigenous for that. There is a distinction to be made when Latino actors come in, but it's mostly like white presenting European descent. Then all of a sudden, you have a movie that is actually portraying people that are Indigenous, that have Indigenous traits. That's huge. That is huge.
[00:20:57.640] - David
No, we definitely seen it. We definitely seen it. Again, those are things that, at least when I was watching it, it just made me so excited. But I think diving into that a little bit more, I think I want to get into, for a moment, of the mythology of it all. It's so interesting the way us as humans, history and what we're told of our past is oftentimes not the fullest story. And so we're talking about colonization of our own histories. And here we have an opportunity in Wakanda Forever for us to hear it directly from the source, so to speak. And so I was just curious how you all felt about the mythology of Talokan as a Mesoamerican entity? Because they don't say... Never mind, I'm going to go down... But they don't say it's like Aztec, they don't say it's Mayan, they just say Mesoamerican. So I'm just curious how you all been feeling of the mythology of Talokan?
[00:21:50.700] - Rossana
I think the connection to water, the connection to nature was so important. For me, specifically, I am Puerto Rican, and I grew up in the Caribbean. To me, watching the way in which they created these distinctions and this idea of these people that lived in the water, that that was where the roots were, the roots were in the water- it touched me very, very, very deeply.
[00:22:21.390] - Jessie
I think the methodology was also super interesting because it was just like we wanted to touch on this Indigenous historic perspective on a people. But it was interesting to me how they also included mysticism in this methodology. You have an illness that takes over a people, and the way they're healed is through water... And some folks may even claim it as to be like magic.
[00:22:51.850] - David
Voodoo.
[00:22:52.940] - Jessie
Santeria, right? I'm Caribbean, my religious practice is Santeria. And to watch a film, almost pay homage to mysticism in a real way-
[00:23:05.500] - David
Because they were right, too. This God was right. They were saved!
[00:23:09.030] - Jessie
Exactly! And then to speak to them how a people lives and practices and operates was extremely important, I think, for Latinos and Indigenous folks that still try to hold on so dearly to those practices that ultimately have faced the greatest stereotype. Because if you're not practicing Catholicism and what it means to have a God and a religious practice that is removed through colonialism from mysticism and Santeria and all these other practices. The fact that they pay tribute and bring that back into the film was extremely rewarding for folks that still hold on to those practices as a way of living.
[00:23:57.650] - Rossana
Which I think is important also to note that, we were just talking about being Caribbean, we are Indigenous and we are African. And our religious traditions are rooted in both spaces, right? We live in this mix. And across all of those cultures, nature is God. And the manifestations of God and divinity come through the water, and come through the forest, and come through the sea. And yes, colonialism stripped a lot of the beauty of that. But because of the resilience of our ancestors, the traditions remain. And then there was this syncretism. There was the mix of all of these Catholic saints with our deities, which were actually the sea and the river and the forest and the air. So it is beautiful that it comes back and that it is something that we can take in as a tribute.
[00:25:08.560] - David
Caullen, any thoughts? Because I don't know. You all are changing- like, I have my thoughts, and I hear you all speak, and I'm like, no, I mean, they're right.
[00:25:14.880] - Caullen
It's almost like when you hear things that challenge your worldview, you start changing your worldview.
[00:25:18.310] - David
Yo! At first, I was just like, man, why they got to be blue?
[00:25:22.167] - Caullen
Racism!
[00:25:22.410] - David
It's like they can't be... There's a whole thing that I think I talked about in the other Whiskey 'n Watching about like, why they gotta like, it'll be Brown people, but they have blue eyes. Or they're like, Brown people, and they're like, Oh, their super powers are the ones that make them better or whatever.
[00:25:37.490] - Caullen
They have good credits. Oh, my God.
[00:25:37.840] - David
Well, I don't know about that. I don't know. But I don't know, I'm hearing y'all. It makes me appreciate a little more. There are a lot of things that I do think worked in terms of, I really appreciated seeing the spirituality come through in essence. I think, Caullen, you made a mention about how that contradicts religion in the film.
[00:25:58.730] - Caullen
Yeah. I think, I don't know if I would say contradicting, but it's just like, obviously, spirituality and organized institutions of religion are different. But it's a practice of something bigger than you. And we see- and you know, we all haven't- if you're listening to this now, I hope you watched the films; we're getting into all of things. But we get this, Namor, or K'uk'ulkan explains his origins to Shuri, and we see why these people have to go in the water. We see how it happens with the herb they get and everything. And then you see him come back to the surface and see all those peoples being colonized and literally an enslavement.
[00:26:31.260] - Caullen
And so, for me, looking at it, I drew on some of those things, not nearly as deeply as you two did, but drew on some of those things. But it was like, the first watch, I had an issue with how he made decisions, I didn't think it was true to his character. And the second, and third watch, I'm like, Okay, no, if the only instance he has of the outside world is them, literally, enslaving his people. And he reacted in a way that I think was, you know what I'm saying...
[00:26:53.440] - David
Burn it to the ground.
[00:26:54.190] - Caullen
That's the only thing he knows. As smart as he is, that's his only data point, then, yeah, his reaction is going to be a preemptive strike. It's going to be like, We're not going to mess with anything. Whereas Shuri and the folks of Wakanda, they know all that, they know these people are evil. They know the insidiousness of white supremacy, but they also know how the world works. So they're trying to be more intrepid about it. I don't think either of the things are wrong, I just think they need to communicate better. But when I think about his story, it's like, how does the experience justify the actions? I think that's always a question you ask with ourselves, people in the world, but also movies and stuff, too. And as smart as he is and as much as he built with his peoples, it started to make sense for me as far as why he started making decisions later on.
[00:27:36.440] - Caullen
I think, to get to your actual original question about religion mysticism and spirituality, the one who gave him his moniker from his enemy, "Namor", a Child Without Love, was a Catholic priest. Which don't have the best track record with other things... But it's like, on paper, you think, Oh, religious man, whatever, and he's cosigning, enabling, and justifying define a slow genocide and enslavement. Whereas a K'uk'ulkan and his people are using it to live and to be generative and to be part of the Earth. It's not the same, it's similar, bigger than you on things to believe in, but carried out very differently.
[00:28:22.880] - David
My mind is all over the place right now. I'm not even going to lie to you. But... At least we can all agree that Brown representation was alright. It was decent.
[00:28:32.160] - Caullen
Let's take a step back and look at the movie itself. I'm trying to think of one of the first instances of their meeting. The queen and Shuri are on the beach, and she's about to tell her something we don't know yet. And then Namor pops up and he's like, What's good, y'all?
[00:28:47.230]
[audio clip from the movie] The American military detected vibranium on their magnation's domain. I was able to stop them from mining it, but we need Wakanda's help to prevent it from happening again. They use a machine designed by an American scientist. Vibranium only exists here in Wakanda. Mother, he's covered in it. Your son exposed the power I bring into the world. In response, other nations have begun searching the planet for it. His choice has compromised us. I think Wakanda could find the scientists and bring them to me. It is only fair that Wakanda helps to resolve our dilemma. You do not sneak into my country and tell me what is fair. I have more soldiers than this land has blades of grass. And they have incomparable strength. I would hate to come back under different circumstances.
[00:29:52.190] - Caullen
When I think about is when he sees- he's at the surface world, he didn't say the West, he didn't say America, he didn't say- no. He just said "the surface world." I think in his mind, too, everyone's the same. Which we know is not the case. He has his people out there, too, but he is like, The surface world knows about us, they know we have this stuff. They're in my backyard now. I would have shown them before; now, I know you guys have it. We don't like them either, let's team up against them. The queen is just so astonished that someone can breach Wakanda that he has-
[00:30:25.020] - David
Vibranium.
[00:30:25.190] - Caullen
Vibranium. That like, She didn't hear all that. She was like, We got enemies. They got the same power that we do. That's what she hears. He's like, Look, I'm just saying... Then we see things go awry and we figure out who the scientist is and the nuance of this young Chicago Black woman- Black girl, really, in school. And then the similarities that she and Shuri have and how it gets a little interpersonal from there.
[00:30:47.530] - David
I know you were teasing, but truly, I think what this film does well is all of our characters in real-time are processing information. Shuri's like, alright, let's go do this. I was like, Oh, it's this young girl. Oh, she didn't even know that the CIA took her shit.
[00:31:00.910] - David
She didn't even have any agency in it. She's not an op. She's just part of this cog in the system. And Namor doesn't know. Namor is like, She made the thing, they found our shit, fuck her. And it's like, No, it's more complicated than that! And she's a young, Black, and misunderstood- so am I in my own queendom! You know what I mean?
[00:31:16.200] - David
And so I think what I'm curious in then to hear from you all is, I know there's parallels we can make to the real world. I think what I'd love to hear is, as you all were watching this film, and we're talking about Black and Brown unity, what's something that you felt either worked or didn't work in the film in terms of that?
[00:31:34.930] - Caullen
Let's talk some shit.
[00:31:36.640] - David
Well, just a little bit. I am just curious because, again, I have my thoughts, but you all have been able to sway me elsewhere. So I'm just curious, is there a point or another that you all thought was weak in the film or strong in the film in terms of Black and Brown unity?
[00:31:49.860] - Jessie
Yeah. I think so. The first- I don't want to say a mistake- but I think the first loss opportunity that I've seen in the film was when Namor comes to the surface world and has this conversation with Ramonda and Shuri. And the queen cannot fathom.... Cannot fathom...
[00:32:12.870] - Caullen
Cannot.
[00:32:13.230] - Jessie
That there's another nation with this much power, which is vibranium. And we could talk about vibranium and other things in the real world that vibranium feels like.
[00:32:21.450] - Caullen
It's oil!
[00:32:21.590] - Jessie
Right? Exactly. That she cannot fathom. Therefore, there was another nation with such power, it made them immediately an enemy. And I struggled with the idea that she would be someone that understood colonialism and oppression because they hold such a resource that the world wants. And that she wouldn't empathize with another nation that possibly would be in danger. And it takes a while in the film to get to a place, and it's not until... I don't want to have too many spoiler alerts.
[00:32:59.680] - David
No, we're giving all the spoilers at this point.
[00:33:01.060] - Rossana
It's way past time. People, watch it.
[00:33:03.220] - Jessie
There's this big war that has to go through the truly- we harm each other, we kill each other for us only to understand we are more alike then we are different. And we're fighting each other as enemies when the real enemy is about to win. And I get the need to have to explore that, right? And some of the tension, particularly between these two nations and the real world. And somewhere like the city of Chicago, we feel that with the Black and Latino community, right? And this survival mindset to have to fight each other in the name of protecting our own, has often had us on the losing end of any situation. And so for me, I almost wish that Marvel would have flipped the narrative and the dynamic, and that opportunity could have been for the queen to understand there is this nation that is in the same situation we have been in for decades. And we've seen that with the first film of Black Panther. And so how do we use the legacy and the heart of Black Panther to then serve them?
[00:34:14.470] - Jessie
Now, I'm not saying I'm not saying Namor's tactic and strategy was the best, right? Because I'm like, his olive branch... I was like, I don't know if I would have seen that olive branch either the way it was presented.
[00:34:23.997]
[Hums in agreement]
[00:34:24.150] - Jessie
But it goes to show, when we are stuck on our own survival, are there olive branches extended that we never see? When Namor came to the surface world to have that conversation, he came to the surface world to have the conversation as an olive branch. But because of Wakanda's own survival and need to survive, they couldn't see it as the olive branch extended.
[00:34:51.010] - Caullen
I was going to think, too, with Wakanda, the movie opens with mercenaries trying to steal their shit. And Wakanda being like, Nope, and showing the whole world and the UN.
[00:34:59.900] - David
France, specifically.
[00:34:59.680] - Caullen
I knew you all were going to do this, and you all did it. And we found you all- don't fuck with us.
[00:35:05.840]
[audio clip from the movie] It has always been our policy to never trade vibranium under any circumstance. Not because of the dangerous potential of vibranium, but because of the dangerous potential of you. Last night, there was another attack on one of our outreach facilities. Proof of the involvement of a member state is being uploaded to your mobile devices as we speak.
[00:35:38.990]
And as for the identity of the attackers, je vous en prie. Let our gracious response to this incursion be an olive branch. Further attempts on our resources will be considered an act of aggression and met with a steeper response. We mourn the loss of our king, but do not think for a second that Wakanda has lost her ability to protect our resources. We are aware of the ongoing efforts by some to find vibranium outside of Wakanda and wish you the best of luck.
[00:36:27.270] - Caullen
So this is a new world for them, right? I think of- David pitched this earlier before we recorded, I think about the inter-generational piece of it as well. With the first film, Chadwick's like, Yo, pops, Black folks everywhere, and they're struggling. It's like, Killmonger is not wrong, so where are we at? And they start opening up, and then here's what happens when you open up.
[00:36:46.040] - David
They kill you.
[00:36:46.930] - Caullen
They were hurt. They opened up and then they were killed. Yeah, so that's what happens, they opened up. So they're in this phase- I won't say it's growing pains, it's like, what they thought was going to happen is happening. And that is real to clap back. But also, your people are hurt, and so it's like, where is that line? Extending help and support and love, and risking getting hurt, even though some of the folks you're supporting, you love too. I think they're in these growing pains of this, too. And so I think, in my mind, the Queen of Wakanda is kinda like, we just started opening up, and now all these threats, I don't even know homeboy.
[00:37:18.350] - Caullen
And then Shuri is a little more receptive to at least hearing them out, and that's that inter-generational piece, too. I don't want to speak bad about my elders or anything that like; but it's like, you're around a long time, you see a lot of worlds, so you start understanding how the world works. Younger people are more open to these things. And I think part of Shuri's narrative, both as becoming a Black Panther, being a young Black woman scientist in Wakanda is like, no, believe me, my work is good. I belong.
[00:37:40.170] - David
I know what I'm doing.
[00:37:40.960] - Caullen
I know what I'm doing. And even in a place like Wakanda, she's still fighting for that. And that's why she is so close to Ironheart earlier on.
[00:37:49.820] - Rossana
Yeah, I think that the transgression, the fact that this man just shows up *laughing*. In a space that they also designed to be so intimate. There's a context, right? And this being shows up-
[00:38:04.000] - Caullen
This man. *laughing*. The audacity.
[00:38:08.380] - David
And he's naked too. Like, we needed to see all that.
[00:38:11.480] - Caullen
You know what you're doing. We know what you're doing.
[00:38:11.800] - Rossana
And there is this threatening conversation that happens, whatever the merits are of it. And then there is the perception of a threat, of danger. That threat already lived within one community, and now it becomes a reality for the other. So from now on, the relationship is a relationship of fighting for survival. Which for me, that made it very easy for me to just be all in my feelings about everything that we were experiencing in city council and in the city of Chicago as we tried to address an influx of migrants coming into our city with huge amounts of needs and with so much pain and trauma. And then seeing this other community that has been disinvested on and that has gone through so much historical trauma as well, in our city, at the hands of our government. And all of that distrust. So for me, it made sense what they did. It made total sense for me that that is how they decided to go about it because it is super real.
[00:39:24.570] - Rossana
What I had trouble with was the fact that there was no resolution to that in a logical way until the middle of the war. All of a sudden, somebody has a change of heart in the middle of the war, and then it's solved at the very last minute of the film. And I feel like there was an opportunity to have more of a story of healing, of how do we actually get to see each other's pain, how do we actually come to understand? Which is an incredibly hard thing to do. Just like- Jessie was just talking about, when you are in survival mode, can you see an olive branch? Are you able to identify that when you are in survival mode? And that is something that we've been struggling with so hard. It is at the core of what our work is right now in the city, to be able to come together in our collective interest.
[00:40:23.590] - David
Yeah. I mean, again, I think you all like... Because originally I was like, No, Namor is asking for help first. Yeah, he came into a city-
[00:40:29.230] - Caullen
There's a little nuance...
[00:40:30.410] - David
Okay, the way I see it's like, my man is asking for help, right? And then-
[00:40:33.670] - Rossana
He was! He was. But there's context.
[00:40:36.300] - David
What he did do, he did abduct people, right? But I think there was something interesting that I really appreciated about "Shuri," I'm using air quotes- I don't know why I'm using air quotes. But Shuri being the first one to visit this space. And then homie then starts telling his story, giving more information. Which, again, I think Shuri is a microexample of what Rossana, you were trying- hoping was getting. We're seeing... The point you're naming is all the way at the end where she's like, Oh, don't kill this guy. And her mom comes in the mystic, whatever. So I get it, I think that's just the drama of Marvel or whatever. But I do think we get enough of that through Shuri individually. What I was trying to name, was that I felt that Namor had... He showed up, asked for help. He shows this place, this person, the most special place in his world.
[00:41:30.380] - Caullen
It's his only world. That is his world.
[00:41:33.020] - David
Yeah yeah yeah. And I think there was like, hella levels, right? But what ends up happening is Queen Ramonda is like, sneaky around it. It's like, Oh, I'm going to pull him out and you go get... So my man was like, yo- I don't know.
[00:41:46.157] - Caullen
But she didn't know.
[00:41:46.220] - David
Not that he was- I'm not validating Namor's actions, right?
[00:41:49.460] - Caullen
You're leaving out some facts here.
[00:41:50.950] - David
What do you mean some facts? No no no. I'm trying to- I just saw this yesterday.
[00:41:54.430] - Caullen
The lack of information these characters have means a lot, right?
[00:41:58.140] - David
This is true.
[00:41:58.140] - Caullen
And how fast people react. Because I think- They were going to find the scientists regardless. They were like, What the hell is going on? He was right as far as naming that it's more of a threat now. And so they find her, Shuri and the homegirl from Chicago, at the moment I forgot her name. And before they even do anything, they get attacked by K’uk’ulkan's team. I'm not even saying that was the wrong move, but he wanted to find her sooner, so that happened- intercepted it. Maybe that was the whole plan the whole time. We don't know. And so, if more time had passed, maybe they got it, they talked to her, who knows? Even that initial conversation, if they had more time, had time to process, and have a second Zoom meeting or something, maybe things could have been resolved. But I think the points where they have conflict or talk or chat are good moments- good threads that I think needed to be like-. If they were longer-
[00:42:47.110] - David
More time.
[00:42:47.110] - Caullen
If they could communicate better- you know what I mean?
[00:42:49.290] - David
Okay. Okay.
[00:42:50.600] - Caullen
So yeah, I just think- And even with Queen Ramonda trying to find her daughter, she doesn't know anything. She doesn't even know if she's alive or dead, she's like, Find her and kill everybody. She doesn't know anything.
[00:43:01.110] - Rossana
Which I think is the narrative, for me, is each one fighting for their own community, for their own survival. It was made so real for me, through that movie.
[00:43:13.030] - David
And we see it with Shuri. It was like, Yo, you just killed this person. This is going to cause a war. Again, Shuri is that example of the understanding of processed information. Here's where they're coming from. It's like, Yo, we just killed her, they're going to come at us heavy.
[00:43:28.530] - Caullen
I think of this idea of interpersonal, one is communication, but two, conflict resolution, at least talking through things and how hard that is to be at a macro level. Because Shuri and K’uk’ulkan have this moment, and they don't… Obviously, they don't end up agreeing, but they're talking about some real shit, which is important. Not everybody else knows that, and so when homegirl comes in with a gun, she doesn't know anything, and that girl is like, Kill the princess. First, you're like, Oh, maybe she shouldn't have shot her. It's like, Well, we're going to kill the person who's here to save, I need to kill you. It just makes sense in that moment, right? But it gets messy.
[00:44:01.010] - Rossana
But I think that's what was hard for me, that there was just this one character who was carrying all of that on her. So I wanted to see a little bit more of collectivizing that kind of consciousness so that we could get to the end in a different way. Because it's also very real that there is very few people understanding the pain that lies in each community and trying to build bridges. And it is a very lonely space to be. I think that for many people in the Latino community, for example, that have tried to build those bridges with the Black community, there's all sorts of conflict. And same for Black people who try to do that with the Latino community. And that part was so hard because I really wanted a little bit more of sharing the load of trying to mend. And that wasn't a part of it.
[00:45:11.650] - David
And I would argue that was never going to be a part of it because Shuri, even once they become the Black Panther, it's all through like, You're going to do this because I fucking tell you. When he's with M'Baku and he's like, Oh, your mother doesn't want this for you. She's like, My mother ain't here, motherfucker, Imma do what Imma do, and you're going to follow me for it. And M'Baku was like, alright, fuck it, I got to go follow her. I don't know. I do think they did a wonderful job with Shuri's character in just developing. Because from the start, she's anxious, she's angry, she's pissed off. Everyone's telling her all these other things. She's trying to save somebody's life, no one's helping her. Then they kill this girl, she's like, Holy fuck, this war is about to go down.
[00:45:47.250] - Caullen
Because she know it's going to happen because she can see the ramifications of-
[00:45:49.600] - David
And then she loses her mother, right? And I think-
[00:45:51.470] - Caullen
And that's what sets her off. And the vengeful from just losing her brother. And that puts her on that path.
[00:45:58.360] - David
Before we leave-
[00:45:59.040] - Jessie
And her feeling responsible for her brother's death, right? So let's remember what happened in Black Panther. She's a scientist, right? She's the nerd in the lab that has always produced the answers for her nation. And the moment she felt that her nation needed her the most, she didn't produce. And in her mind- the viewers knew it wasn't her fault. But in her mind, she couldn't save Black Panther because she couldn't come up with the answers quick enough. And so she spends even all this time- and we watch it in Wakanda Forever in the beginning of the film, she's spending her time trying to break a code of science that she can't get.
[00:46:41.360]
[audio clip from movie] We do not need the herd, mother. We need new technology.
[00:46:46.150] - Jessie
And it's not until she begins to even see her lab differently, right? And her ability as a scientist to produce that she breaks the scientific code that takes her nation to another level. Which, in a mystic world, produces a space where people can heal physically. And then it draws us back to mysticism. And the ability of even this film to utilize science and mysticism to produce answers for a nation, I think is extremely important.
[00:47:19.815] - Rossana
Oh, that's beautiful. Yes.
[00:47:20.040] - Jessie
Because we live in a world where it's either spirituality and mysticism, or it's science. Super black and white. It can be both. And this film draws in both perspectives and worlds to say that it can exist simultaneously. But I just, I don't want to forget this responsibility that she felt in the first film and in the second film. So when she loses her mother, it is almost a personal obligation to lead and act. And how many of us have been in those situations? Whether you lose a parent. Or whether you're in a community, you lost a community leader. This need not to sit back and reflect and think, but no, you just got to assume the role.
[00:48:02.435] - Rossana
Gotta act.
[00:48:02.660] - Jessie
You don't got two seconds. You got to assume the role. And sometimes when we have to assume the role with no transition, with no support, it's not perfect, right? But I respect her need to say, I don't care what you think. I'm Black Panther, and we're gonna do what we do.
[00:48:22.150] - Caullen
Right. And there's almost this Boyz n the Hood moment with Shuri. You know what I mean?
[00:48:27.250] - David
Well, no, tell me. I know Boyz n the Hood, but I don't know what you mean.
[00:48:30.680] - Caullen
Ricky gets killed. "Ricky!" Type shit. And Ice Cube is like, We going to clap back on these niggas. And originally, Cuba Gooding Jr. is like, Beth, they killed my friend, of course. And so, you know, he has Furious Styles as his dad. Furious Styles is like, Don't do this, Tre. Don't do this, Tre. He's like, Okay, I won't do it. Then he leaves and gets in the car with Cuba Gooding Jr. Yall seen the movie. And so they're in the car, it's late. They know they about to do this drill type shit. They're driving, Cuba Gooding Jr. is thinking, thinking, thinking, and processing, and he's like, Let me out the car. Ice Cube let's him out of the car. No problem. He knows what's going on, but Ice Cube is like, It's my brother, we gonna get them. And then, you know, they kill the guys who killed Morris Chestnut's character. And then Cuba Gooding Jr. talks to Ice Cube at the end. He's like:
[00:49:13.060]
[audio clip from movie] Did y'all get him?
[00:49:19.070] - Caullen
And he just kinda looks at him.
[00:49:19.920] - Caullen
He's like:
[00:49:20.760]
[audio clip from movie] I don't even know how I feel about it neither, man. Shit just goes on and on, you know.
[00:49:34.050] - Caullen
That's happening. And, Shuri, throughout this time as well. Grieving, but also leading a nation, but also clapping back, but also she understands the broader context of how the West and CIA are involved, what America can do. But they killed her mom, bro. What do you want me to do? It's a lot happening. Like you said, she's carrying so much this whole time.
[00:49:50.920] - David
I mean. And so- we did just... Angela Bassett's character dies. I did want to just take us back a little bit to the first time I saw that scene, and we get that one tear coming down her face. They don't cut-
[00:50:05.750] - Caullen
What happens in the scene, David?
[00:50:06.600] - David
In the scene-
[00:50:07.220] - Caullen
What is this scene you speak of?
[00:50:07.850] - David
So Shuri, at this moment in time, has been taken. And to all known thought of Queen Ramonda is like, Yo, my girl's dead. It's over with. The General is like:
[00:50:18.780]
[audio clip from movie] I have given everything. Let me die saving my country and that throne. Allow me to make this right. Make it right. I do not know if my daughter is alive or dead. Perhaps we are being too hasty. She raised a spear here against her own husband for Wakanda. Where is her treacherous husband now? But in a place where she can visit if she wished. Mine, it's with the ancestors. I am queen of the most powerful nation in the world, and my entire family is gone! Have I not given everything?
[00:51:10.580] - David
The boy in me, again, I'm watching this film, I feel like a child. I'm seeing my mother, I'm seeing the women in my life talking about their own loss and how they're processing. But also the- you all named the responsibility level. I love to hear how y'all processed that scene, specifically. Or any takeaways from that.
[00:51:29.540] - Jessie
I was taken aback and almost completely can relate and feel the rage that comes from loss. Look, two years ago, I was on my honeymoon. I got a phone call; my dad had passed. And I remember the rage. No one sits here and takes your parent, and you want to get to bottom of who caused that loss and that pain for you. And so we see this rage develop in Shuri. And then we also see her assume responsibility, right? And those feelings are conflated in her experience. She can't separate the rage and the pain and the loss of her mother to, well, I have to lead a nation and I have to make sure my people are safe. And then contextualize this moment they're in, right? People in Wakanda, they're tearing shit up. They are taking resources, killing people. It ain't just Angela Bassett- it ain't just Queen Ramonda, it's everybody; it's an entire nation.
[00:52:44.490] - Jessie
And so it's often- and it's also how we have been socialized and conditioned to process loss and the trauma that it creates. I mean, no one in my family, I don't know about yours, but no one prepared me for loss. No one taught me how to- not compartmentalize those feelings, but how to process them for what they are. And so we watch these feelings be conflated in this film, and rightfully so. But it's often what we see every day when young Black men lose fathers to the prison system. When young people in our community lose parents to addiction. How I lost my father to addiction. And so it can create a lot of anger and pain that can be displaced. And we watch that and we could talk about the war, we get into, in the film. And how much more is in fact- how the war is informed by so much more than the CIA and their need for vibranium. But everything that both Namor and Shuri bring into it. And their experience of loss and trauma. And their need to assume responsibility for an entire people.
[00:54:06.590] - David
What about you, Rossana? Any thoughts on Angela Bassett's scene?
[00:54:09.600] - Rossana
I was actually thinking about the mother figure for both communities and what is lost when mother is lost. What does that mean? And what does that mean in the ways in which women carry everything in both of our communities in ways that they make the world go round. We make the world go round. And I think I stayed with that feeling for a very long time. Thinking like, how do you process and how do you come back from it? How is like a compass has been erased and all of a sudden you have to figure out your own way. You have to figure out the how. I think that stayed with me for a long time after.
[00:55:15.420] - Caullen
I'm thinking about the structure and hierarchy of Wakanda, specifically, in the comics, of how advanced it is as a nation. As a nation-state I should say. Then Talokan- am I saying that right?
[00:55:35.200] - David
You mean Talokan, the city?
[00:55:37.650] - Caullen
Talokan, yeah, the city. Then how beautiful it was when we saw it... Every society has its problems, whatever, but they're good. Which is why they want to clap back so hard on anything that could be a threat. And this idea of hierarchy, and when the queen dies, it's super tragic, but is it... I thought about this with the first film- I'll give some more context. But like, the society is super advanced, they do all cool stuff... But the way they figure out their leaders, they just fight in a pond? It seems like, reductive, right?
[00:56:06.870] - David
A little primitive, maybe.
[00:56:08.130] - Caullen
I think- maybe actually, yeah.... That's how, really? Elections aren't... Do you have some.... You got rank choice voting?
[00:56:15.820] - David
I mean, low key, I'd be down for Biden and Trump to go at it to the death.
[00:56:18.130] - Caullen
Whatever. I think about this notion of the mother figure and women in general. And it's like, we've gotten this far as a society, as a nation-state, thinking about people. But we still are putting so much on women. And so much is on a single leader, and it's not democratic at all. They have the Council of Wakanda, right? But the leader is still gonna do what they want to do. They don't vote in the Council. But so, yeah, I'm just thinking this idea of democracy. What does participatory governance look like?
[00:56:48.020] - Rossana
And sustainability.
[00:56:49.180] - Caullen
And sustainability. And how none of these models that we see, both in Wakanda, both Talokan, then the United States, whatever- none of it's democratic. As much as we want to talk- give these flowers to Wakanda and Talokan, and people doing stuff- it's better than America, but y'all still ain't talking to nobody; it's all just one person making all the shots. And then it's hereditary lineage. Like, that doesn't work. What if tag Boseman, when his father dies- obviously, he's gang, so he's good as a leader. What if he was a dumbass?
[00:57:19.430] - David
What if he wasn't noble?
[00:57:20.190] - Caullen
What if he wasn't a good leader? He should be able to sell bread in the corner store but have someone else- you know what I mean? So that idea, I'm like, this feels reductive, and I want to see them be more bureaucratic. And homeboy is in too. So it was like, we talk about that. The general's husband, he led a civil war as part of the... We're not digging in those weeds. I'm like, Wakanda is cool, but it's not perfect. I just thought about that when you mentioned that mother figure thing. And how we still haven't gotten out this idea of patriarchy and hierarchy and stuff, even though these civilizations are really advanced.
[00:57:50.040] - Rossana
David, can I come back to something that you said before that just popped into my head? You were talking about how you were feeling a certain way about this civilization being blue, like blue skinned.
[00:58:01.140] - David
The idea, yeah- they come out of the water, they're blue. Yeah, go ahead.
[00:58:04.310] - Rossana
So I got stuck on that because I think that I had that same thought at the beginning. I was like, Why did they make them blue?
[00:58:11.330] - Caullen
Why can't they just be Brown?
[00:58:12.400] - David
Yeah, just like, yeah.
[00:58:12.950] - Rossana
But the thing is that if they made them brown, right? And if they made them be at the surface as well, they would be too similar to Wakanda. You would have to contend with the fact that they have-
[00:58:32.690] - David
That they look like you.
[00:58:32.690] - Rossana
two groups that are way too similar to be... So the idea that they made them... Because I feel like the fact that they were blue and living underwater almost matches how these two communities, Black and Brown communities, sometimes see each other. We are just completely different from one another, when we are so similar. And I think that the similarities are perceived after you have an opportunity to understand the histories of both communities. But I think that it is very important to understand the moment of otherness, right? That you are not like me, I need to protect myself from you. So I actually was thinking about, that it might actually be a really good idea that they did that to make them...
[00:59:28.940] - David
Made them blue cause it's more of an enemy type of situation. I think to me...
[00:59:31.840] - Rossana
More different.
[00:59:33.200] - David
Otherness.
[00:59:34.250] - Rossana
Otherness, yeah.
[00:59:35.490] - David
And I hear that, and I think to me, it's like, I just immediately... There was a lot of things within the movie, for example, the birth scene. I was like, what the fuck? They clearly watched Apocalypto. They just love seeing women give birth in wells, that's what I'm understanding in that scene.
[00:59:47.390] - Caullen
In wells.
[00:59:47.780] - David
That's basically what happened again, and we see the entire thing. I'm like, why did we put this person to...? I don't know. It was just a production standpoint. I was like, we didn't need this entire scene. We just didn't. But in the other hand, we're talking about the way there was... I'm connecting blue with Avatar. Where this idea of like, here's this world superpower and they're trying to colonize this space. And the Indigenous people, they can't just be Indigenous- they have to be this exotic, blue, tail to the tree type of a person. They can't just be like, what Indigenous people would look like in that space. I mean, Avatar is a different example, it's not Marvel, whatever.
[01:00:29.060] - David
But I think that's where I think some of my qualms came in terms of... Because they are themselves underwater. And we see them not blue underwater. But I'm hearing that. I think from a strategic standpoint, if you're Marvel, it's like, yeah, oh, if they're all different shades of Brown. Because that's also the thing with latinidad, and also Black, there's shades, so it complicates things.
[01:00:55.670] - Caullen
Fuck this shit.
[01:00:57.140] - David
Maybe that wasn't- I'm just curious. Marvel, where were you at?
[01:01:00.110] - Caullen
I'm thinking about when they're doing that. I'm thinking about- as Black and Brown folks navigating whiteness, navigating white spaces, and surviving white spaces- when they come out of their home, they literally change fucking color just to be on a surface world.
[01:01:13.880] - David
Code switching, I hear you.
[01:01:14.630] - Caullen
Code switching like a motherfucker.
[01:01:16.820] - David
To the T, bro.
[01:01:20.130] - Caullen
I'm just thinking about that right now as you guys are talking about that. Because I didn't think of that as much watching it. But yeah, it's like, we literally have to change color and wear this thing just to adapt to this world. And like, adapt and thrive, arguably. But have to adapt in these super, super crucial ways. And then with Wakanda, it's like, we're just not going to leave. We're just going to stay here because we got everything. And leave only when we need to. Which is a privilege most Black folks don't have, right?
[01:01:43.660] - Jessie
But the code switching also happens with Wakanda when both Chad and Shuri make decisions to go to the US and engage- they wear regular ass clothes.
[01:01:55.190] - Caullen
The other Black folks, they're like, Who are you? We're like you. [inaudible 01:01:58]
[01:01:59.440] - Jessie
They're still this sense of otherness that's created through the film to acknowledge this culture of otherness is a world we live in. That sometimes we can't even see our similarities because we're too caught up in our differences.
[01:02:16.380] - Caullen
One thing with critiques that I'm thinking about now, I kinda named it earlier, but with the first film, Killmonger was like, Yo, we struggling out here. Where you all at?
[01:02:25.120] - David
Help me out.
[01:02:25.310] - Caullen
It was like, Facts. And so with this- maybe there wasn't a space for it or whatever- but when Shuri is talking to K'uk'ulkan, she's not like, Look, there's Brown people outside of just here. You got people across the globe, too, like we did. And we kinda thought the same thing you did, if you just kill everybody, you gonna kill your people. And I'm curious with Namor's history, how he sees those folks. Because I think that he knows there's a buck and a wish he can be like, I'm pure. We are pure. Y'all been dipped and dabbled with the colonizers and stuff, I don't mess with that. You have Christmas on Christmas Day, we don't do that. I don't know what y'all doing. I can see that being- maybe being a thread that's not explored in the film. But that's not named as far as you have people, you got your people everywhere.
[01:03:10.310] - David
Yo, so we need a love story between someone from Talokan and someone from Puerto Vallarta or some shit. And then that's the love story between... I love that shit. Marvel, hit me up.
[01:03:21.600] - Rossana
Marvel, you're hearing?
[01:03:23.910] - David
That sidetracked us.
[01:03:25.560] - Caullen
That's all I'm thinking about as far as the intercommunal- the global intercommunal diasporic threads that are here and not here in this film. I think that would be a reason that Shuri could offer as far as, Here's why you don't want to scorch the entire Earth. And also, not everyone on the surface world is the enemy. But you don't know that, you just know- I've seen my own people enslaved. You know what I'm saying? There's that lack of information and not knowing how to articulate that information. Then people just need to make decisions in real time. They're like, I get why people made their decisions in the film, but I think it's important with any storytelling as far as, does that make sense in the context of this character? But you're like, no, wait, no, no, but no, talk to me. You have those moments as an audience member, which is like, that's how you watch films. It's how you get emotionally involved. That's why I liked being angsty and being like, No, just talk to each other. No, no, no. People of Venezuela, no, the US...
[01:04:22.490] - David
So you didn't ship Shuri and Namor like I did?
[01:04:25.130] - Caullen
I didn't what?
[01:04:25.820] - David
Ship them.
[01:04:26.100] - Caullen
Ship them?
[01:04:27.340] - David
Yeah. Like, you wish they were... There was one line when Namor was like, I was listening to you when you were at the lake or whatever, and you told your mother you wanted to see the world burn; let's do it together. And I was like, Oh my God, yes! Let's just do it together! Let's just burn it!
[01:04:41.920] - Caullen
That's so romantic!
[01:04:41.920] - David
It's just so horrible. No one else picked up on that? I shipped them like a motherfucker.
[01:04:47.260] - Jessie
You know he just got married.
[01:04:48.060] - David
I hate that. I can't with y'all.
[01:04:50.750] - Jessie
You know he just got married.
[01:04:51.490] - Caullen
Pull on a thread.
[01:04:52.350] - David
Take his name.
[01:04:54.080] - Caullen
Part of it, while watching, I'm like, Oh, I want them to be like, be in a moment. But it's like, why do we always- why can't men and women just be friends? Or be intimate and close, but it not be a sexual romantic thing? Or what does romance mean?
[01:05:04.360] - Jessie
Y'all want Wakanda and Talokan babies?
[01:05:06.350] - Caullen
No, seriously, no! It's too expected and simplistic and like, binary.
[01:05:11.670] - David
Which is why we didn't get that.
[01:05:14.060] - Caullen
Because I felt it the first watch-
[01:05:14.850] - David
she almost kills his ass.
[01:05:15.840] - Caullen
I felt it the first watch, and now I'm like, Why does it always have to be this way? Why can't men and women be intimate or romantic, but also not together, partnership forever type thing? Why can't it be like, why can't we expand these ideas of how we see relationships between folks? Yeah, I don't know, the intimacy part.
[01:05:34.200] - David
I don't think Namor was hitting on Shuri. That's not what I meant. I personally was like-
[01:05:37.540] - Caullen
I loved how it was presented, but as an audience member, having that knee-jerk reaction. I was like, Oh, I want them to hook up. I was like, Why, bro? Why can't they just be intimate and close...
[01:05:44.940] - Jessie
Because we love to fantasize. It's why we watch film, to escape the real world.
[01:05:50.178] - Caullen
Yeah.
[01:05:51.150] - Rossana
But there was a beautiful closeness.
[01:05:53.100] - Caullen
Oh, totally.
[01:05:53.980] - David
And parallel, right? You talk about the loss of mothers, right? So they each lose their mother in some... Well, no, because loss of mother, right. There's also, well, something I want to name is neither of them ask for the role that they're in. Namor's mom was like, I'm going to convince you to do this, and we're going to make him king. She's like, aight, I guess. Shuri was just part of the lineage. In her brain, she's like, Oh, if my brother's going to be king- I don't know.
[01:06:17.820] - Caullen
He also had more power because he was born out of her. He's the only one that could be in the surface world type shit.
[01:06:22.750] - David
In terms of Namor, yeah.
[01:06:24.290] - Caullen
But he didn't ask for that. He was born that way. He had all the power, be king. He's like, uhh okay, bet.
[01:06:26.390] - Rossana
But that's also a responsibility because if nobody else can do it, then you have to do it.
[01:06:30.460] - David
Just thinking about the parallels between both characters and how they're each faced with their own dilemmas. They got their own... Namor had this girl yelling at him, roasting his ass, be like, Bro, you let that happen? You let that happen here? What, are you going to let that happen later? I'm like, Man, girl, get off him, leave him alone. He lost his child! He's also like, what, like thousands of years old, whatever.
[01:06:51.550] - Caullen
He's like, girl, I'm tired. I just want to go to sleep.
[01:06:52.790] - David
He's like, Yo, leave me be. We'll fix it.
[01:06:54.900] - Rossana
I feel that.
[01:06:56.270] - Caullen
But I think we have to talk about that. So it's like, We see, in the real world and also in this movie, these big, impactful, nationwide global decisions being made because your girl's like, Yo, where are you at? You know what I mean? There's the interpersonal- the interpersonal being macro and global at the same time. We see that all the time in the real world, unfortunately, then also in this film.
[01:07:16.780] - David
I think there's a lot of dualities. I think we're naming Namor and Shuri as the obvious. We're naming the mothers also there. The countries themselves. I think the more I think about the film, the more I'm curious... We see what America and France and all the others, what they do in the beginning, but then we don't really see them else in the film. So it kind leads me to believe or think, while these two are fighting and scrapping each other, what's the rest of the world doing? How is the rest of the world talking about these things? You're mentioning relationships in the film. Director Fontaine is the ex-wife of our favorite colonizer, as he's named. And so here's this white dude who's defending Wakanda. He owes his life to Wakanda, whatever. So he's trying to do the right thing. He lies for Wakanda. But it's like, he literally... He was married to this, to me, it's like the embodiment of military-industrial capitalists.
[01:08:17.960] - Caullen
Yeah.
[01:08:21.080] - David
And so I think the film does a good job of presenting different types of dualities, what I was trying to name, that I thought were successful for the most part. I think there were some that may have fallen flat, but I think even with bringing Killmonger back as a thing. I know I'm like-
[01:08:35.460] - Caullen
Can you give the audience some tea on him?
[01:08:36.450] - David
Reminding y'all of where you were at. But when I was in theaters- not that I expected to see Queen Ramonda because homegirl was like, Oh, Queen Ramonda, come to your child. I was like, Oh, maybe they're going to do some AI or virtual Chad. Or done another thing.
[01:08:51.570] - Jessie
We wished for it.
[01:08:52.620] - Caullen
I didn't know what to expect. I was like, Oh...
[01:08:54.380] - David
And you turn around and it's Killmonger, bro.
[01:08:56.260] - Caullen
With the grills in, let's go!
[01:08:57.190] - David
Any thoughts? Any feels? What was y'all's brains doing when y'all saw our man from Creed up on that stage? I'm just curious.
[01:09:05.130] - Jessie
I was like, Fuck that dude.
[01:09:06.130] - David
Ahhh! You said, Fuck that dude? *laughing*
[01:09:08.750] - Jessie
Well, I was like, This is unnecessary.
[01:09:12.420] - Caullen
What did you expect?
[01:09:12.980] - Jessie
He does not need to be in her head space right now, that's not who she needs. At least that was my initial knee-jerk reaction.
[01:09:20.870] - David
Yeah. That's fo sho.
[01:09:20.870] - Jessie
And then I'm like, Oh, well, maybe she needs that fear. Maybe she needs to be reminded of some of that pain. But when I first see him hit the screen, I was like, Absolutely not. She does not deserve this. Who called for this? Who wrote this part?
[01:09:39.600] - Caullen
Who is this man?
[01:09:41.950] - Jessie
I said, Who wrote this part? And look, I respect the character of Killmonger, I do. Definitely had his place in Black Panther. But I'm like, in Wakanda Forever, how dare you?
[01:09:54.980] - David
Okay, that's fair. Rossana, what about you?
[01:09:57.090] - Rossana
I remember, because I had a fight inside of me because I love to see that face. No matter when you bring it out.
[01:10:05.670] - David
I mean, truly beautiful. Truly beautiful human.
[01:10:09.100] - Rossana
But I also had the feelings that Jessie was- so I struggled a little bit with that.
[01:10:15.670] - David
You, Caullen, you were saying something, but...
[01:10:17.750] - Caullen
This is a tangent. I was on the bus one time- so I started growing my locs-
[01:10:22.800] - David
After you saw Black Panther. *laughing*
[01:10:25.530] - Caullen
[crosstalk 01:10:25] But I was inspired. And so at some point, they were perfectly Killmonger length. And I was on the bus one time, and some woman's like, Oh, you kinda look like that one actor, uhh... And she was talking about Michael B. Jordan. I don't look like him, but my hair is very similar or whatever.
[01:10:38.280] - David
The character, you looked a lot like the character.
[01:10:39.480] - Caullen
And this other woman was like, No- she's like, Michael B. Jordan is fiiiine. I was like... And she's like, No offense. I'm like, It's fine. You don't have to say that like that. You could have just left it alone. That's got to be.
[01:10:50.960] - David
I'm hearing truths.
[01:10:52.390] - Caullen
Anyway....
[01:10:53.370] - David
Giving truth to Caullen.
[01:10:54.640] - Rossana
No, I was legit happy to see him, and then I was like, Wait, but why? But yes!
[01:11:00.330] - Caullen
It's funny because-
[01:11:02.560] - David
Why are you wearing your shirt? I don't understand.
[01:11:05.520] - Caullen
I'm thinking about, in the film, when she goes through that and what she's dealing with. And I remember watching, and I could be wrong, but I think there was a moment where there were many buckets. She could have went the restorative bucket of Chadwick coming back and her thinking about how to protect her people. But also... I don't want to say have a conversation, but try to find the common ground between Namor and his people or not. And the other bucket, which was the vengeful, the protectionism-at-all-costs bucket, which is of Killmonger. And I remember not knowing who to expect, really.
[01:11:44.380]
[audio clip from movie] Little cousin. How? How? It's never as important as why, right? You chose me. Impossible. I would never choose you. Why did you take the herb? To see my family. No, that's bullshit. You didn't believe the ancestral plane was real, did you? No. So why did you take it then? You don't have to lie to me. So I can be strong. Strong to do what? See? We're more alike than you think.
[01:12:27.870] - Caullen
But I feel like, thinking through the film up to that point and her seeing Killmonger, I wouldn't say it made sense, but I was like, Okay, we know what the next 20 minutes is going to be like.
[01:12:37.000] - David
Oh, man.
[01:12:37.780] - Caullen
She didn't want to see him, right? She wasn't like, Oh, bet, I knew you were going to be there because I had to-
[01:12:40.860] - Jessie
Her subconscious chose him, though.
[01:12:42.200] - David
Yeah, the ancestral plane.
[01:12:43.200] - David
You didn't even believe in this.
[01:12:45.260] - Jessie
Right. And I think that that's also the beauty of-
[01:12:48.220] - Caullen
The science and the mysticism, and not believing in the tradition.
[01:12:50.510] - Jessie
But it's also the beauty of how we operate and live. My consciousness is like, This is the right thing to do. And then my subconscious intervenes.
[01:13:02.830] - David
Hey, your conscience is capping. *laughing*
[01:13:06.180] - Jessie
[inaudible 01:13:08] Now you're clapping back by any means necessary.
[01:13:10.130] - Caullen
We talk about movies and storytelling, and there's lots of things we don't like. But do we not like it because it's not true to the story and the characters? Or we don't like it because we didn't like that they chose that cause we don't like that for them? I think this is a lot of the latter, right? I was like, Oh, shit, we know what it's going to be. But then when she does make that decision, she does understand the similarities, she does understand the broader context of it, she sees her mother. And again, her mother wasn't saying, Hey, we should talk to Namor; she was like, No, fuck him.
[01:13:37.810] - Caullen
And so her mother had this journey we don't even see in the afterlife as far as like, No, he literally killed me but I understand why. And I understand that we need each other on a bigger level than just ourselves. She's in the afterlife saying, Hey, put down the sword. Let's actually figure this out. That's growth we didn't even see on the screen, but we know it happened because she's actually seeing it from the sky, from the afterlife now as an ancestor. So I think we did see Angela Bassett's character when we needed to, when Shuri needed to. I love that as far as interpersonally and hurt and pain and restoration, all those things. When the characters that needed to see it to change course, or didn't to make things a little more messy.
[01:14:20.420]
[audio clip from the movie] Their blood is on your hands. No, that ain't on me. And don't you dare take that away from your mother. She sacrificed her life to protect a young girl from the Lost tribe. Your father, he was a hypocrite. He would have killed that girl. Should he kill his own brother? T'Challa was too noble. He let the man who murdered your father live. And here you stand. Are you going to be noble like your brother? Or take care of business? Like me.
[01:15:06.970] - David
The only thing I'll name with this, what I really appreciate is that we would get part of the story, and then we would go into the present, and then they'd give us a little more of the story. And so when Killmonger first came out, I was actually super-hyped. I was like, Fuck, yeah. I'm like, We're pro-Killmonger here, but it's also like... And also, it was like, as someone who has had their altercations with faith as an idea, here's Shuri being like, You didn't even believe this was going to happen. You're just doing this so you can get strong, so you can get powerful, and you need what you need to do. And yet, here are the repercussions of how you wanted it. And so they're put into this real-world scenario- real moment scenario where Killmonger was like, alright, cool, this is what it is. But then they don't give us that ending where it's like, Yo, she is- it's like, Yo, I want to kill everybody. Yes, this is exactly what I'm going to be doing. And the mother comes through being like that, this muse, angelic figure being like, Hey, show them who you are. Which is like, I just connect that with "when they go low, you go high" type of an attitude. Which is also like-
[01:16:12.050] - Jessie
Should we call him Michelle Obama?
[01:16:13.410] - Caullen
I was like, hmmm, interesting.
[01:16:15.630] - David
I also thought it was like... How do I want to say this?
[01:16:22.130] - Caullen
You stumped him.
[01:16:22.790] - David
No, not stumped him.
[01:16:24.400] - Caullen
You gonna quote George Bush next?
[01:16:25.240] - David
I guess I'm just curious.... Should... Hmm... It's like, why does Shuri need to be the bigger person? I guess is my question.
[01:16:33.160] - Caullen
Because he's a man.
[01:16:34.390] - David
No, Shuri.
[01:16:34.880] - Caullen
No, I'm saying because she has to be, because he's a man. It was a joke.
[01:16:37.650] - David
Okay, now I get you. But it's like, I don't know... It's like, not that I'm... Go ahead.
[01:16:41.650] - Jessie
And I think that's the question we often always ask ourselves- like, why do we gotta be the bigger person? Why do I got to act right in the face of racism? Why do I got to be the bigger person when your anti-immigrant sentiments hurt me to the core and all of my people? So why do I got to be the one that's polite? We ask ourselves those questions every single day. At least I do.
[01:17:03.013] - Rossana
All. The. Time.
[01:17:03.130] - Jessie
All day long. It is my lived experience to be like, Am I going to be the bigger person in this moment or do I finally get to act petty?
[01:17:13.910] - David
And that's where I'm at, where I'm like- not that I wanted Namor to die, but I think it was interesting that the mother, her line was, Show them who you are. It's like, Yo, she's going to kill that man... I don't know.
[01:17:23.800] - Caullen
That moment, you're like, Who is she, though? Because we don't know. She doesn't know.
[01:17:27.080] - David
That's the drama of it. That's the movie-ness of it all, which I think was kudos. Because clearly we're all kinda like, yes, no, yes, no. But it's like, we still have to wait for her to do this decision, which ends up being, nah, I'm not going to kill this guy. I'm like, make sure he's done. But you yield when you yield.
[01:17:44.950] - Caullen
You know all the power I have, okay. And unfortunately, power and violence is respected. He's like, Okay, she has this power, I should listen to her. It's like, were you not listening to her before? So I think I wanted to dig a little deeper with that a little bit, too.
[01:17:56.470] - Caullen
Not to zoom out too much, but I'm thinking about the idea of isolation, power, and resources. Wakanda has this power. Wakanda also knows how the world works, so they know what the consequences could be for sharing it. Then like, Talokan has this power as well. They knew they were heard. They knew they were good so they don't want to mess with anything else. I think the United States, for example, they don't have this resource, but they're a super powerful nation. We are a super powerful nation, I'd say we're in the belly of the beast. But they're using it to just get more power, get more power, get more power. Where these entities are being like, We're good. And then Wakanda is starting to share the power with the people, and they're all getting consequences back. So this idea of power and what it has potential to do, and what it actually does in search for more power. I think looking at these three different nations, nation-states, the West in general, white supremacy, and how that operates in all three are different.
[01:18:42.110] - Caullen
I like that you pulled on the Agent Ross- or Martin Freeman's character who, the only reason he starts fucking with Wakanda is because they saved his life. He threw down in the first one, but it's like, that's what changed the white supremacy- is we saved your life? He's literally this guy- agent working in this system. He was married to the most fascistic human character we've seen in this world. She's in other Marvel films as well. She does all this horrible shit. Julia Louis-Dreyfus's character, Fontaine or whatever. And so we see this...
[01:19:13.160] - Caullen
One, just back to back up, I think it's important to look at these characters. Look at the CIA and white supremacy in the US and stuff, too, because obviously Black and white unity is a super important part of the film. But it's like, again, we can't invisible-ize whiteness because they have institutions, they have names, they have characters, they have addresses. We know who they are. We should name them. And not to forefront whiteness, but it's like, No, it's not us, it's them. And we should name who they are. So going back to it, you see these two characters that work for the CIA, work for the United States government. One is in the belly of the beast, lying for Wakanda, throwing down, hashtag ally. Doing the best he can, but still as a white character in this system. The other one is doing the most you can to exploit, to steal, to consolidate power to crush everything else.
[01:19:53.960] - David
Using our Lib friend as like- they bug the bracelets. So it's like, he's a pawn even in that system. When he thinks he's above it, he's caught also as well himself.
[01:20:07.110] - Caullen
And I think the line everyone knows when Shuri says, Oh, my favorite colonizer. It's funny, but it's true. We think about allyship in all the ways where it's like, You're the best of them, and you still have this power, you still have this privilege.
[01:20:20.450] - Jessie
That's right.
[01:20:20.450] - Caullen
You might understand white supremacy and try to reject it, maybe, but you still have this power, and this other entity is complicated as well as you're going to use it for our liberation. And we're not going to pat you on the back for it because that's what you should do any way. But you're married to the fascistic dictator, most fascistic white character in the world.
[01:20:38.600] - David
One would say, that's why he's divorced, though. Maybe we got to... Martin Freeman was like, You know what? I got to break this off.
[01:20:45.200] - Caullen
But I think it's interesting that they like...
[01:20:46.580] - Jessie
That's not the type of colonizer I want to be. *laughing*
[01:20:49.880] - Caullen
Lowkey though. It was like, You're in the same vicinity.
[01:20:53.140] - Rossana
I know better. *laughing* I was raised better.
[01:20:56.840] - David
Out of left field there. No.
[01:21:00.660] - Caullen
He's got a Black Lives Matter sticker on his bumper. No, but I just think it's important to look at those characters. Oh, they used to be married, too. So I was like, you're really close to the proximity to whiteness and power. As much as you dislike it, you are still connected to it in very real, tangible ways.
[01:21:16.940] - David
I do think maybe your average Joe Schmo didn't pick up on all of these things, right? But I think it's been really exciting talking with y'all, and y'all being able to bring in a perspective that truly I hadn't always seen. And I do think the film does end, again, in this idea of, Yo, killing each other is not the answer. That's not what it is. I think we've had interesting conversations about what tactics or strategies they could have used. I'm hoping that they... I don't know if they're doing peace circles out there or anything. Just curious on how- with situations like this, how things move forward. I'm excited to see Wakanda 3, excited to see what Marvel continues to do with this universe of Wakanda, of Talokan.
[01:22:04.810] - David
I did want to just give a huge shout out to the cast. Which is, we talked about Black, Indigenous majority, just from an acting standpoint, just phenomenal. From the types of what we saw. There was very few flat moments, which I thought was super cool for a Marvel movie. Because oftentimes with these superhero movies, you're just there for the action. Whereas I do think for this film, we were in two funerals. There's two funerals in this film. It's heavy as fuck. It's heavy as fuck. So the fact that I was crying, y'all were crying, I think just makes sense. I think the majority of our listeners are probably on the same-
[01:22:45.930] - Rossana
I'm crying.
[01:22:47.270] - David
Yo, I mean, it just-
[01:22:49.090] - Rossana
Actively.
[01:22:50.010] - David
Yo, that's it. But I mean, so as we start closing out, as we start- I think we made it through the beginning to the end of the film, right? Again, we're left at the end of the film with, again, his girl being like, Yo, they let you live, why aren't we working with them? It's like, no. It's like, this group is alone out there, and they're going to eventually need us as well. And so, I don't necessarily think that's a positive outlook. I'm very curious about Namor's intentions.
[01:23:17.350] - Caullen
Yeah, it kinda ended a little loose.
[01:23:18.760] - David
When we're talking about how much has Namor also processed? We know nothing. That's usually the case when we're trying to create an otherness- we don't see any the off time with Namor. We only see very pivotal moments versus with Shuri we're there in her mind. We're there in her off time. Which is like, one thing I didn't really like; but I was like, no, it's a Black Panther movie, it's not a Namor movie, so we can't get into Talokan- in his head or whatever. But I'm excited to see how that does, how that explores.
[01:23:42.240] - David
And I think, to continue looping it full circle, it's also seeing how it continues to manifest in our day-to-day lives. Whether that's with our youngens who are consuming this content. I think one thing I always love to point out is like, look at how police officers are portrayed oftentimes. And in this film, they're destroying their own vehicles... There's no remorse or understanding for life. No sanctity. Just naming it- that's what we see in the film. If she would have been Black, no questions asked. You feel what I'm saying? So it was like, not necessarily- you know, we're poking fun here. But I think those are levels- there's levels to it, right?
[01:24:19.640] - Caullen
You respect the badge, David.
[01:24:21.280] - David
Yooo, I don't know about all that. But... I didn't want to go around and let folks have a final thoughts and says on the film as we start closing out.
[01:24:31.130] - Caullen
Do you mind if I add some sauce on that?
[01:24:31.600] - David
Please.
[01:24:33.520] - Caullen
It's kind of a worm hole, if I'm being honest. Earlier in the week, Israel took siege on Rafah, neighborhood in Palestine. And obviously, this has been going on for nearly a decade, especially in the past eight months. But it hit me in a way, and I was working, and I was thinking through stuff and seeing stuff on social media, and just thinking about it a lot. And was like, Oh, if our work as B'nB and Soapbox is reshift narrative and reframe and offer solutions, and etc etc, I'm like, Do we need to watch Black Panther in this moment right now? Like, We should watch some Palestine movie or whatever. But to how we forefront this conversation, it's like, it's all related, it's all connected.
[01:25:10.080] - Caullen
So thinking about solidarity. Thinking about solidarity across nations, diasporas, ethnicities, whatever. Thinking about imperialism, violence, resource extraction, land. Thinking of those threads, I'm curious how we situate this moment we are in, in the Palestinian genocide with a film like this? I think, not to get too down- too deep of a sad rabbit hole, but in some of the despair we've seen and realized, and also some of the power that we've seen build over the past several months and what we can do. I'm just curious as general as if you can, thoughts on that and situate this film in that context, I think that is important in this moment.
[01:25:55.820] - Rossana
As I was saying before, the fact that the way that the the movie ends is like with this pause. And I remember watching and thinking, when are they going to stop? Because it has to happen that they're going to stop. They're going to stop, right? They're not going to keep killing. But it just kept going. And I was like, I mean, where does it end? At this point in the genocide that is taking place in the Gaza Strip, ceasefire has become the most basic demand.
[01:26:29.400] - Caullen
Say that. Say that.
[01:26:30.530] - Rossana
At this point, it's like, the occupation needs to end. Palestine needs to be a state. We need a one state solution, and we need to get along. We need to figure out how do we build a space where people can coexist without an Apartheid state. And at the end of this film, now, through the conversation, I'm thinking, we are... That's where we are everywhere. We have these dreams of ending colonialism, ending imperialism, recognizing the humanity of all people. And yet we're aiming for a pause. Just, let's pause. Let's pause for a second. And it's not happening. It's not happening anywhere. So one of the things that I was left with was the opportunity to pause at the end of this film and sort of taking a moment to process the mutual suffering, the mutual histories, and figure out how we can move forward.
[01:27:39.490] - Rossana
But without a pause, none of that is going to happen. Without stopping for a second to reflect, without stopping for a second to... Just to stop hurting each other. It's just not going to happen. So I think where I was left at the end with this was, okay, there was a pause. And now we have to figure out what we can do with that. Do we take that opportunity, of that pause, to actually mend and heal? Or is it just the calm before the storm, before something else drives us apart and fuels the fire and ignites another war?
[01:28:21.630] - Jessie
Yeah. I also want to draw a very clear distinction between what we see at the end of the film between Wakanda and Talokan, and two nations and two groups of people who fight each other because of survival and because of their victimization- not their victimization- because they are victims of colonialism, right? We can draw parallels of this scarcity mindset; we got to protect our own because we are the only ones who can do it. What's happening in Palestine and what we've recently seen in Rafah, I want to be clear, it's not that.
[01:29:01.220] - Rossana
Oh, it's imperialism.
[01:29:02.470] - Jessie
It is imperialism at its finest. And so I do want to be careful bringing in this issue of Palestine and what we've recently seen of the bombing of the tent encampments in Rafah to what we see at the end of Wakanda Forever. Look, I mean, Palestine has the largest open air prison in the world, right? Like, they are being displaced and colonized, and at this point, murdered through a genocide every single day. Quite frankly, it angers me every time we have to talk about it. The fact that we are calling for a ceasefire because we just don't want any more dead children and women and men, and that alone can't be respected to see one's humanity. And that we live in a world where our Commander-in-Chief can't see a world in which he chooses to put children and families first is beyond what we've seen in Wakanda Forever.
[01:30:08.210] - Jessie
I mean, this obsession that our nation has with growing power through the robbery of land and resources and ultimately lives. We rob people's lives every single day in the name of just having more. It's not just painful, it's criminal. What we are watching is criminal. And the fact that someone like Rossana gets so much hate and heat and threats for her position to stand with the people of Palestine, to stand in the name of humanity. Or that we would be treated differently for passing a ceasefire resolution. It's asinine to me that we live in a world where that is possible. And even in a city like Chicago, right, with the largest Palestinian population in the country. With 77 neighborhoods that looks like the entire damn world, that we still have a problem with saying that a nation, that a people deserve to live. More importantly, they deserve not to be robbed from the places they call home. It's extremely problematic, but it speaks to our obsession with imperialism and colonization. And that is deeply embedded into the DNA of this country. And you can't just undo that with small reforms.
[01:31:44.850] - Jessie
And as proud as I am that a city council as large as Chicago with a 50 person body can pass a resolution, I mean, that's symbolic. Let's call it what it is, right? We're not undoing imperialism and colonialism, right? We're a long way from there. And so there's a lot of work to be done. And there's also a lot of calling-in to be done. People got to be called-out and called-in. And we just don't have folks that have the intellectual capacity, because it's not even emotional. Let's think about this just from a political survival standpoint; this is not sustainable. What we're doing is not sustainable. Come on, be politically poison intelligent. You know what I mean? This is not even about emotions at this point. The fact that we can't even recognize that, man. We got a tough future ahead, y'all. We just do.
[01:32:57.520] - Rossana
But I think that ties into the idea of representation and...
[01:33:03.180] - Caullen
Let's go.
[01:33:05.090] - Rossana
That it is not enough. That we can have people that look like us in all levels of government, and if they are not with us, if they are not committed to solidarity, if they are not committed to collective power, we're doomed.
[01:33:21.450] - Caullen
We got Ray Lo, we good.
[01:33:21.450] - Jessie
Not all your skinfolk are kinfolk, man.
[01:33:28.850] - Rossana
So I wanted to say that because I do think that one of the points of the movie is, oh, we're seeing ourselves out there.
[01:33:36.490] - Jessie
That's right.
[01:33:36.810] - Caullen
If I see K'uk'ulkan, he's getting these hands.
[01:33:37.150] - Rossana
But in real life, we're going to need a lot more than that.
[01:33:39.160] - David
I'm just thinking about what to add because I really appreciate just hearing y'all process together. Because I think that's what we're doing right now, we're thinking through and trying to use this Marvel film as some type of a stepping off point. I think to me, and when it ends, I do think- the optimist in me is like, Yo, they're going to figure it out together and they're going to understand. And I think the parallels of my experiences are like, during 2020 on Cicero and Cermak, there's literally almost a race war being brewed out of misinformation, out of gang culture, just different levels. Then CPD, the biggest gang, not doing anything. So again, they're useless, not only in Marvel films, but just in real-world life. So we can say that again.
[01:34:34.450] - David
But I'm just trying to connect it and just processing with y'all, because the bare minimum is a ceasefire. And I think, like this film, though, we hope as people are taking in new information, I think that's something we've been harping on. Where it's like, Yo, you're living it and it's hard, because you're fucking figuring it out. And there's a level of... I definitely have always thought that America has done a good job of imperialism because it's denied true spirituality within our people. Or it's omitted, whether that's Native American culture, which they got put into schools and you know... And/or just the process of colonialism within Mesoamerica. So I hope that like the Shuri, like the Namors, we are all allowing ourselves opportunities to develop. Allowing ourselves these opportunities, these pauses. Because I do think, Rossana, you're naming that, and I just love hearing it. But I do think each individual gave themselves their own pause. And I think we have that as well. I think for the world, it's a different game.
[01:35:39.780] - David
But I think we, in our own moments, have different opportunities and different placements. It was understanding that and then being able to understand, Hey, you know what, I thought this way once, but now I no longer think this way. To me, it's hard. It's kinda how I started the episode, in naming of us individuals from being on the other side of the world, there's oftentimes a sense of, Well, what can we actually do? Oh, well, I voted for a ceasefire in Chicago. But what does that actually do? These are real life things that we want to place for ourselves as individuals because there's a situation of hopelessness. Of the idea of, Well, I can't do shit. And that's what the system, I feel, does a good job of making people feel hopeless. Or making people feel busy with their own shit where it's like, Yo, you can't- don't look anywhere else. Focus on your bills, focus on your rent, focus on taking your dog to the vet and paying ridiculous amounts for no fucking reason- that happened to me today. The system does that, and so I hope that just like Shuri, just like Namor.
[01:36:42.500] - David
And other characters, because I think that what I really appreciate is all these other subcharacters, like the general, are like... I don't remember, but homegirl who brings in different weaponry, and we end up finding out she's dating another one of the girls.
[01:36:56.320] - Caullen
Yeah, they're dimensional. They're three-dimensional characters.
[01:36:57.970] - David
I think the film, in a short amount of time, does the most it can. And I think it did it successfully. That's giving our flowers, again, that's why I was naming like, shout out to all the women in this film because they fucking did it. It was so awesome. And my girl, we were talking about it and she was like, When's the last film you saw where there wasn't a man on the screen? And I'm like- Marvel films, right? And I'm like, I'm trying to think about. I'm like, Okay, maybe She-Hulk?
[01:37:20.430] - Caullen
And you guys watched them all, too.
[01:37:20.960] - David
And we've seen the Marvel Universe. And so it's exciting that we're at that space where there's also a whole scene where it's like, Oh, well, an all femme cast can't lead a film. So we're just thinking about production and styles or whatever. It's like, no, that's clearly not true. Clearly, you can have Indigenous people speak their tongue in the movies and people are going to watch it. I don't know. I think this Wakanda Forever, the optimistic in me is looking for, we're proving the system wrong, countlessly. With our survival, we're proving them wrong.
[01:37:52.340] - David
And we see that with what we're getting out of Palestine. And whether this is from Instagram or social media, but how many times is it where we're seeing Palestinians come together and hold space for one another, whether that's young people, and that's them dancing, or being able to put these spaces. You think about being in that space, being hopeless. If they're not hopeless, then why should we be? You know what I'm saying? Why should we be? Again, I think that sits in faith. That sits in spirituality a little different than it does on this side of the world. But that's how I'll answer your question, Caullen.
[01:38:25.350] - Caullen
That was beautiful. All I was going to add- thank you for all of that. Everyone digging into my last really heavy question. But just like, we're all simultaneously an audience as well as agents. We're watching this film, this thing is made up, it's scripted, but it has real implications. We're seeing a genocide happen between thirst traps on Instagram and other things, and have to deal with just that mind fuck of what it is. And understanding our implications of that, and allowing that complicity in that. And how do we do something when it seems so hopeless, when to your point, folks that it's actually happening to are dancing, when their lives are at stake. And so we're agents, we're audiences, simultaneously in our own liberation and others, and those all wrapped up together. And collective liberation isn't just a cute, fun phrase, but it's real. And it's hard, as we're learning- as we've learned, or as we're learning, and we'll continue to learn. But it's the most sustainable thing for the Earth and for people and for life on this planet, literally.
[01:39:20.170] - David
I also do want to name that the whales and the orcas were on Talokan's side. So I'm just saying, nature works with the right side of justice or whatever we call it, right? But I don't know, that shit. *laughing*
[01:39:33.080] - Rossana
Yes.
[01:39:33.600] - David
But this has been so awesome. We really appreciate y'all being part of this Whiskey 'n Watching. I think it got a little more emotional than I was thinking it was going to get. I was like, David, you cry at almost everything, so it's fine. But no, I'm glad that we're sharing in the same circle. I did want to give y'all an opportunity to say last words, and I think I'd love to start with Rossana. You were naming something that's taking place here in Chicago, right? On the positive side, on the right side of justice. I'd love for each of you to have an opportunity to share- taking from the film, bringing it to the present, on where we're seeing the landscape. It is about to be summertime in the Chi, we know how that can get, but curious to hear what we take from this and how we move on.
[01:40:22.920] - Rossana
Yes, I think I was saying before that, I was very connected to the movie, on my way here,, because I came from a press conference where we're releasing the report for implementation of the Treatment Not Trauma model that we have been fighting for for the last four and a half years. And specifically for the model, four and a half years. But there are people that have been fighting for 13 years to reopen the public mental health centers.
[01:40:46.284] - David
Yooo!
[01:40:47.310] - Rossana
And this is a coalition of Black and Brown people. This is people that are understanding the needs and the wounds that we carry, and the importance to create resources to be able to care for our communities. And so we were announcing the reopening of three mental health care spaces. One of them is the Roseland Clinic, who was one of the shutter clinics, we're reopening it. It should be reopened by the end of the year. We're also opening a space in Pilsen that is going to have expanded care. So we have a Black community, a Brown community, and then there's also going to be additional resources in a library in Garfield Park.
[01:41:39.480] - Rossana
So we are very excited that a fight that was fought by so many Black and Brown people that came together is yielding so much beauty and the ability for us to be able to care for our communities. And that gives me a lot of hope. I guess it continues to give me the strength to keep fighting, even though the situation sometimes can be really dire. But the proof is here; if we join forces, if we organize together, we win. And we win well-being for all of us. So that's what we need to continue to do.
[01:42:23.560] - Jessie
I think I've probably quoted the Quran four times now, but I'll do it for the sake of closing of this episode. There's a quote in the Quran that says, We are different so we can know each other. And I think that we have a great opportunity in the political moment that we're in to see our differences not as concerns, right, or as threats to our own survival, but as a real opportunity to be in solidarity with one another and create bridges for our communities.
[01:42:54.790] - Jessie
Look, the fight for liberation is a struggle in perpetuity. I'm an independentista. I believe in the independence of Puerto Rico. I fight for it every day. That may be something I never see. My children may never see the independence of Puerto Rico, or my children's children may never see the independence of Puerto Rico. But my willingness, my desire, and my curiousness to fight for something that I know it's right and just for my people is something that I choose. And I think that there's so many folks in council today and people that we are grounded with in our movement that choose to do this for the generations ahead of us.
[01:43:41.820] - Jessie
And sometimes we romanticize movement work so much. And often, when we talk about this, we talk about it in a way that almost makes us like heroes in our own Marvel film.
[01:43:59.460] - Caullen
It's in sepia tone.
[01:44:00.720] - Jessie
Right. And it's not that. It's a lot more complicated, a lot more nuanced. It's a lot more muddy. And we are in the thick of it today. What we're seeing with Palestine, what we're seeing with the anti-immigration sentiments with the wave of Venezuelan, Ecuadorian, and the Central Americans migrating, even the migration of Africans. The way we are being pitted against one another by a very sophisticated, strategic, right-wing framework, is a moment that I think we have to contend with. And I'm really interested in beginning to even build more bridges.
[01:44:50.220] - Jessie
I mean, I love coming to Bourbon 'n BrownTown for the solidarity that exists even with our hosts. And being able to have discussions on how we build bridges and create solidarity. And so how do we use even mediums like this podcast and discussing film to be able- not just to lighten the work because there's no way of lightening the work. It's difficult, right? The shit is tough. But how do we have conversations and create moments in which we're experiencing true joy? And we're watching that in the fight for Palestine.
[01:45:24.120] - Jessie
We're even watching it in our fight on the migrant mission where we can experience true joy. And I'm interested in how do we be in the fight and make a choice. Because we all also deserve to live, to be healthy, right? To make sure we're taking care of ourselves with opening mental health clinics, to make the city safer by putting peacekeepers on the street while we pass Peace Book Ordinance. So there's so many things that we can continue to do. I'm also interested in how do we create more laughter and more smiles in our fight for liberation, because there's just always going to be tough moments.
[01:46:05.430] - David
Caullen, any final thoughts for the people's?
[01:46:08.500] - Caullen
I'm fresh out.
[01:46:09.390] - David
Fresh out of ideas? That's a first on Bourbon 'n BrownTown.
[01:46:12.560] - Caullen
Caullen is speechless, what??
[01:46:13.800] - David
No, but I really appreciate y'all. As always, for all of our listeners, peep the episode notes. We'll have all types of information on all details that have been spoken about here today. To our guests, Whiskey 'n Watching number two of the rest of the year? What are we watching next? We got to tell our listeners. This is going to be for Patreons only. No, just kidding. But do check out patreon.com/bourbonnbrowntown. Peep that. This has been a hell of exciting. My love to everyone. We do have a quote here that I'll read, so: "fight with hope, fight without hope, but fight absolutely". That's Mike Davis. Shout out to our podcast sheet and everyone who added to it. As always, from Bourbon 'n BrownTown, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.
[01:46:56.110] - Caullen
Stay tuned, stay turnt.
[01:46:57.050] - David
See you for the next one.
OUTRO
Music, Con La Brisa by Ludwig Göransson from the movie's soundtrack