Bourbon 'n BrownTown

Ep. 107 - Creative Jobs, Life Balance, & Working towards a Liberatory Future within Capitalism 3.0

Episode Summary

BrownTown on BrownTown. Once again, our comrades build on previous discussions from 2019 and 2020 on the interrelationship between working within and outside of the movement media landscape while balancing a healthy personal life, financial well-being, and everything in between. The duo situate what recent growth means for SoapBox as an entity while also attempting to navigate the inherent contradictions of trying to dismantle capitalism while working within it. In this moment colored by genocide in Gaza, mass migration due to decades of neoliberal policy, and revanchist regressive public policy across the US, we are reminded of the necessity of liberation work as well as the toll it takes on our everyday. How do organizers, activists, creators, and freelancers at large sustain the self in order to sustain the work? How do we do fight the power while avoiding burnout and paying the rent? Here's BrownTown's take. Originally recorded April 17, 2024.

Episode Notes

BrownTown on BrownTown. Once again, our comrades build on previous discussions from 2019 (Ep. 39) and 2020 (Ep. 59) on the interrelationship between working within and outside of the movement media landscape while balancing a healthy personal life, financial well-being, and everything in between. The duo situate what recent growth means for SoapBox as an entity while also attempting to navigate the inherent contradictions of trying to dismantle capitalism while working within it. In this moment colored by genocide in Gaza, mass migration due to decades of neoliberal policy, and revanchist regressive public policy across the US, we are reminded of the necessity of liberation work as well as the toll it takes on our everyday. How do organizers, activists, creators, and freelancers at large sustain the self in order to sustain the work? How do we do fight the power while avoiding burnout and paying the rent? Here's BrownTown's take. Originally recorded April 17, 2024.

Episode Transcription

Ep. 107 - Creative Jobs, Life Balance, & Working towards a Liberatory Future within Capitalism 3.0

INTRO

Intro sound bite from The Boondocks.

BODY OF EPISODE

[00:01:32.790] - David

I'd like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. This is your boy, David, coming to you from Harambe Studios in Chicago, Illinois. As always, I'm with my boy, Caullen. Caullen, how are you doing today, man?

[00:01:44.800] - Caullen

You I know I'm doing alright. Got some 100 proof- won't say the names, they're not paying us- but bourbon with me. Got the homies with me. Our first time recording with our wonderful intern, Cassandra's out here in these digital audio screets. Kiera's in the back hanging out. This is our first episode of just you and I in a long time. I think in this room as well-

[00:02:06.600] - David

It has to be.

[00:02:06.600] - Caullen

at Harambe Studios. I'm going to check when I stop talking. But I'm feeling okay. It's April now. Just moving into different seasons in Chicago. I'm thinking about late spring, early summer, it looks like for me, for us, all the things. It's always an exciting time. I'm feeling decent, and that's not always the case when we sit down to record. And this episode, it's about us in our lives and things we care about and how we balance it all. So folks who are listening, especially for the first time, it's not an advice podcast. I would try to give advice of things that I've seen fruitful for myself and for us, but it could be like, Yeah, shit's terrible. I don't know what to do about you all. So if that's your intention listening to this, then I apologize ahead of time. All that being said, how are you doing?

[00:02:50.720] - David

I love that. I think if you're an avid Bourbon 'n BrownTown listener, you're probably like, I don't take advice from you.

[00:02:56.770] - Caullen

I do the opposite. I want to stay out of jail. I'm not trying to burn anything down.

[00:03:01.160] - David

But to answer your question, I think we're doing well. I think in comparison, this type of an episode definitely keeps me a little more reflective. On my drive in, just thinking about this is a 3.0, Creative Jobs, Life Balance, and working towards Liberation within capitalism. As we put some of these episodes together, the research that we do, the reflections that we have, I think I didn't realize how much time has passed. How much these things have happened. I think we're constantly sometimes so invested in the movement of just things, and we just lose track of days. For me, I'm definitely coming into this conversation a little more reflective than usual. And grateful. I think often times we're happy about shit, we feel excited about shit, but I think right now it's like, to your point, it's our first episode in Harambe Studios; it's just you and I kicking it back. There's definitely a level of gratitude that-

[00:03:59.080] - David

I was kinda feeling it, and listening back to our first one. It was a 2019, and we were recording out of Cards Against Humanity. So this is after we were recording in Genta's room for so long. There was this- is going on the rise. That's something that is similar from that first recording because we were just gassed up; and it was a studio and stuff, and it was just you and I. I'm reflecting on that, thinking about that, but also it's like, have things changed? You know what I'm saying? I don't know. It's crazy.

[00:04:30.230] - Caullen

I'm thinking of the last episode of The Age of Spin. Things have changed, but also haven't at the same time. I just did a little Bourbon 'n BrownTown episode search on Simplecast. Shout out. You all should look it up. But our last episode we recorded, just you and I, was 95 in my apartment, it was the Home episode. Talking about what home means, as far as talking about homelessness, to us finding cribs in Chicago, to Soapbox having an office for the first time; and having this room we record the podcast in, and we're currently in before we actually moved into it. Thinking about the trajectory of 2019 to 2020 was the 2.0 with Genta?

[00:05:09.290] - David

Yeah.

[00:05:09.740] - Caullen

So then to now, 2024, years have passed, we grew as people, all those things. A COVID, an uprising, a Dobbs decision, a Gaza being attacked. All these things have happened in the world, and we're still people. And have to, 1) uplift those things and resist and fight and build power; but also, hang out, watch movies, spend time with our partners, all those things, too. And so this- I don't wanna say duality because that makes it really binary- but just all the layers of life. And how, I think and I've experienced myself, other friends and creatives and comrades view the world and view how the things we experience and give light to and engage with are all- it's all related and all integral. I think people say that a lot, but it really is. And we see that highlighted in these flashpoint moments in the world and local politics. And I think there's a through-line there with creative people doing creative passions and creative jobs, and then how that works under a capitalist framework. Even in the most powerful country in the world- the richest and the most powerful country in the world.

[00:06:23.980] - Caullen

So the trajectory of that Home episode being the last time it was just you and I, but now we're in the home, we're in the Soapbox home, right? And Soapbox is the best, on paper, it ever has been, but we're still trying to pay ourselves, pay our comrades and do things and buy stuff. Which we could do more than we could in 2019, but there's still limitations. So it's just that idea of progress and achieving goals, personally and professionally, which feel good. But also being like, Fuck, I wish we could do X, Y, Z. I wish this. I wish that. How do you hold the two? And be proud of and happy with where you are, and campaign wins, and folks coming home from carceral institutions and all those things, but also always wanting more. In a way that actually is- not a gluttonous way, but in a way of like, This is great, but this is actually the floor, and I want- there is no ceiling.

[00:07:17.480] - David

Yeah. And again, being very reflective today, I was just thinking as we continue to embody this flesh package, whatever you wanna call it, on this rock spiraling into the abyss. Let's just think of the grand- let's take ourselves out of Harambe Studios for a little bit. And being born, because we both had the opportunity, I guess, if it's opportunity or the chance of being born within the most imperialistic regime that this planet has ever seen in the name of democracy and shit. I was thinking about that shit, to be honest, as I was coming here and I was like, Yo, I'm over here having to pay taxes, and the nature of the world is that there's food growing on trees. That's the nature-ness, the way things are and have been put together. It's everything else that has just been toppled on top of it; to give things different definitions or to prioritize different methods or modes of living. Whether or not you and I agree, we never made that chance, we never got to make that decision. But as I had an opportunity to listen to that first episode that we did back in 2019, Baby David, out here, Baby Hosting.

[00:08:39.390] - Caullen

*laughing* Baby David baby hosting.

[00:08:39.390] - David

It was out here. It was out here. To surviving. Because ultimately, we were surviving the COVID pandemic, and we talked about all the changes that went through all of our lives. I think, again, to OG audio engineer, I think it really brought things into our perspective about how much the landscape was changing in terms of the music world, the music scene, things like that, but just how the world reacted to this global phenomenon, this global pandemic. And sitting from there, 2021, to now, the way I've divided this thought process for myself is how there's the self, and there's the Soapbox or the work, and then there's society. On these three levels, they've all changed, and they haven't changed- but we're going to get more in-depth.

[00:09:28.000] - David

But I'd be curious, Caullen, to get us going, I'd be curious to hear if there's anything you've done differently. Because I think we ended the episode with Genta talking about, Well, have we managed? How do we manage? I think we're like, Well, we're not. We're kinda figuring it out. So I'm just curious to hear from you how that's changed. Definitely, again, there's a lot of routes to take it, but curious, to you, what's something that sticks out the most in terms of 2021 to today, 2024?

[00:09:59.360] - Caullen

Yeah, thanks for that. I'm curious about you too, obviously. But it's funny the other day- I've heard this before, and I don't want this to sound like a flex or egotistical or whatever, but on my Instagram and even Twitter, too, it's like, Oh, Soapbox and fitness and organizing or political stuff or whatever. Then random shit, people just put posts, whatever. Not as much of personal things, just things I do and care about. Not that I don't care about you all, but you get it. But someone's like, Oh, how do you manage? They didn't really know as much about Soapbox- but how do you manage the videography and film and the podcast and fitness? Obviously, you're involved in politics in some way, I'm not really sure. I was like, Girl, who said I do?? Whatchu mean?? I'm struggling.

[00:10:44.100] - Caullen

I think my answer is probably the same a couple of years ago. Which a lot of that is true; I think some of that stress comes from managing all of that and then how do we show up in our personal relationships that are intimate and people that you care about and rely on, and rely on you. It's like, you want to be able to be your full self in that. And sometimes "the work" when I mention that, meaning the work we care about as far as actually whether it's a campaign or just somehow working towards liberatory practices takes away from that. Or we tell ourselves it does and we should. I think for a couple of years I was dealing with a lot of that. And trying to manage things in ways that weren't sustainable. Or putting my energy and time or whatever into work in a way that wasn't healthy. Or because of that, in my personal life, I would act in ways that weren't part of my values because I was just like... A lot of reasons of that.

[00:11:34.560] - Caullen

And so I think it's been interesting, for me, since that last conversation, taking a step back and 1) just being introspective more so, but being actionable about that. Like here are the things, here are these buckets of behavior, work ethic, whatever. What is good about that? And what is part of just surviving in this society that you need to lean into more than you'd like to. One of the things that are like, Oh, this is not a good trait. Or you rationalize it in this way, but it's not actually good. I think through all that, just being better at communicating to myself, but also other people.

[00:12:12.320] - Caullen

The last thing I'll say is it feels good to be in my early 30s. And with what I was told growing up, as far as like, Oh, you get older and you get more conservative. You make more money, so you stop doing radical things. That's not been the case. I've only leaned-into movement. I've only leaned-into libertory practices. I've only leaned-into leftist politics, more so than I ever have, even when I was being radicalized as a teenager. It feels good to do that. And also be at all the "traditional" metrics of adulthood, I can like- for the most part. We don't own anything. But check those boxes and also still do what I want to do without apology. Yeah, that feels good. It feels like the track that we are on is not easy by any means, but it's only making us better. And I think, by the transitive property, hopefully, folks around us better, and we can keep ourselves accountable and push the work ahead. What about you?

[00:13:14.510] - David

Yo, I'm just like, I can hear 2019 David responding.

[00:13:19.850] - Caullen

Baby David?

[00:13:21.300] - David

You know. But I think with our 2.0 conversation with Genta, we talked about how a lot of the landscape shifted. I think I definitely fall under the demographic of folks who took an opportunity with that. A lot of folks who worked in the hospitality industry during COVID or pre-COVID. Post-COVID, left. A lot of us realized, as people had known, the instability with working in tip gigs, specifically before they changed the rules here in Chicago about that, about tipping. Or paid tips or hourly paid tips. Shout out, Jessie.

[00:14:05.990] - Caullen

Jessie Fuentes, alderperson.

[00:14:08.900] - David

So I think with that, being part of that demographic, I think there was definitely a period of time, like 2021, where it was very stressful thinking about, okay, I've made the decision to no longer work in restaurants or bars and stuff. I was working with Modified Mixology, which is this mobile bartending service, so I was still able to use experiences and skills that I had built for a decade, to a degree. But sitting here in 2024, that's not the case anymore. I think the number one thing that has influenced is what you named in terms of just Soapbox having the opportunity to grow and evolve into what we always knew it was going to evolve into. We just had to be a little bit more patient in terms of expectations. In terms of how much we actually put on our plates. How much we actually want to carry. And I think some of the things that have helped me since we last recorded, is having a clearer understanding of things that I do want to do. And things that I don't want to do. And then things that I have to. And so I think that-

[00:15:20.250] - Caullen

That venn diagram is real. That's important.

[00:15:22.780] - David

It definitely helps out. I think, again, being grateful for the opportunity that Soapbox has allowed us. We often times talk about the education that we at Soapbox continue to learn and pour into. Thanks to community, thanks to organizations and organizers throughout the nation who are just putting their time and effort. Whether that's through memes or whether that's through podcast episodes, stuff like that. I think having that as a foundation, as a media entity, and then being able to put our theory into practice. Producing our own films, producing our own actions with organizations, uplifting things that at another point we might have just been I think-. As one of my pieces that I wrote a couple of years ago, "from sideline to frontline", I think we've definitely been in the frontline in the level that... Not that I'm surprised with myself. And I'm thinking about some of the organizing that we do with the Coalition to Decarcerate. Which I think, if you asked 2019 David, it's probably not the same. I probably wouldn't be in that same level of either comfortable being able to do it and/or just like, Okay, we've done this a few times. This is how we're going to run shit. And bringing that type of support to the colleagues, to the team, I think has been a wonderful evolution of myself. And then that bleeds into Soapbox.

[00:16:44.000] - David

I think it's interesting because I think our answer is very similar in terms of, I am now at a point where Soapbox is as much my life, and my life is as much Soapbox. And so that just evolved. I guess we have it a little easier. You know what I'm saying? I think we were talking about, is it a privilege? Or another, I think to me is like, what I like to remind folks, specifically family members sometimes are like, Oh, you've been doing this for a while now huh? It's like, Yeah, we have, but it wasn't like this in 2019. Right now, yeah, we have salary positions. I have an office. That was not the case in 2016, 2017, 2018. Things weren't great then, and not that they're perfect now, but I think oftentimes people don't look at the bottom of the iceberg. They just see the tip. I think what we're doing with this type of episode, this type of reflection, is looking at that entire iceberg. From what's under the water to what people see above it. Because people see a bunch of shit.

[00:17:41.920] - David

Again, I mentioned a couple of films and projects that we'll dive into in terms of what we've done. But I think all of those have just helped me find that stronger balance in terms of what it is that I want to do, what is that Soapbox has to do. And then what is it that, fuck it, I can't. Saying no to people has been a lot easier since 2023. I don't know why. Just like, Naw man, can't even do it. Or like, You know what, I can't do it, but I know somebody who might, being able to-

[00:18:05.640] - Caullen

Putting the homies up.

[00:18:05.640] - David

put the resources together. Connect homies. I think has been really cool. That just speaks to how we've been continuing to bloom as individuals, but also as an entity. So shout out to that.

[00:18:17.540] - Caullen

Shout out to everybody! Yeah, thank you for that.

[00:18:22.350] - David

I'm curious- just pocking it to you, I think we've- we've talked about Soapbox growing. I am curious, is there something about our growth these last few years that has surprised you or that has caught you off guard? I think some of these things we forecasted. There's foreshadowing that has taken place, whether it's with the podcast or with some of our personal projects. But just curious if there's anything specific from Soapbox that has maybe surprised you and how it's evolved?

[00:18:51.070] - Caullen

That's a very good question. And I'm not sure if there is. I hear us talking about this, and I'm like, Man, this sounds like a Soapbox love fest episode. Which if it is, it is. Fuck it, I don't care that much. But I was going to divert away from that, but I'm just thinking about that question, what is surprising that has happened? I think about the past couple of years, we have campaigns, we have been looking for the office, not as aggressively, we find them through the homies, through Chicago Votes. And there's projects, there's podcasts, there's movement, there's a progressive, more left city council in Chicago that we engage with and critique and all the things. I don't really think there is. I think the feeling after when One Fair Wage passes in city council in Chicago, that we were involved in. Something like that that people were happy about for the most part. And then the feeling after we screened One Million Experiments, shout out AirGo and Respair Productions and Media. The feeling after we screened No Cop Academy documentary in different cities, like New Orleans, which we went to in March, you, me, and Destiny Harris. And talking on a panel about that film and what that movement and campaign meant for Caullen and David as an individuals, Soapbox as an entity. And then looking back on it now, the feelings after those moments are not surprising because I understand I should feel good and proud about them on paper, but feeling it feels like, Oh, man, this is what it feels like. I didn't expect it to feel this way. I will say that.

[00:20:24.530] - Caullen

But I think the moves we made- again, not to sound arrogant, but no, I knew we were going to do it. Because we had to. There's a quote from James Baldwin, it's very simple, he goes, "The world will change because it has to." And I've seen the growth that you have made professionally and personally. Again, not to sound arrogant, I've seen the growth that I think I've at least tried to make personally and professionally. And folks around us that are talented and skilled and love the world and actualize that and hold themselves accountable in different ways, I've seen that happen, too. And so it's not surprising that we have a physical home base now that has been so fruitful, even in less than a year of us being here. As far as people coming through and working on their own stuff, co-working with homies instead of going to a coffee shop or someone's crib. Or going to an office, which has materials and resources, even if it's a bottle of water or a drink or something, or just snacks. It's cool, and it means something.

[00:21:25.070] - Caullen

And I think it's been interesting for me, not necessarily a new idea or something I didn't anticipate, but seeing us build what we try to manifest in our relationships as a physical place, being in the office and folks coming in. When I think of an office, I think of- my dad worked for a State Farm for 35 years plus, so I think of a corporate environment type of thing. But similar to those environments, we got desks, we have different rooms, we have somewhat of a protocol and structure. Because I think protocol and structure can be good if it's used in the right way. And we have resources for the homies. But it's like that in a space that has "Fuck 12" stickers and has Soapbox shirts and stuff. And is community-based and rooted in ways that aren't just word fodder, but in real ways. It feels good. Not that we won't have snacks or conflict or anything like that, and we'll work through them the best we can. That's just being humans in the world. But it feels good to have a space that represents that and shows that.

[00:22:30.450] - Caullen

My friend Amy was in town, I think last year, and we didn't really have time to hang out hang out. I was like, Hey, I'm at the office these hours, I'm kinda free-ish this hour. She came through, we just chatted it up. And she was like, Yeah. She told a friend who we both knew from high school, "I'm going to visit Caullen in his office." And I was like, Caullen in his office? In high school- and I wasn't that much different in high school- she was like, I didn't see him as a corporate office kind of guy. She got here, she was like, Ohhh, okay, he meant like this. And so, that shit feels good. The feeling after the fact is what surprised me. But I knew we were- it was a matter of when. When and how. But I knew we were going to get here. It's unfortunate that the world has to go through so much strife for folks to... I don't want to say, wake up.

[00:23:13.660]

[audio clip from The Boondocks] Wake up, sheeple!

[00:23:14.430] - Caullen

But for folks to understand some of the things and messages we, and folks that we love and support, are trying to put out in the world. As far as deconstructing and challenging systems of oppression in indirect ways of calling out people, institutions, and "countries" that will not be named, and things of that nature. That's something that's disheartening. But we're where we are. And I think looking back and reflecting this, with all these different buckets, personally and professionally, I think it's important to forecast the future in a way that we can plan. But also be amenable to whatever the world throws our way.

[00:23:50.840] - David

Yeah. Because the world has definitely been throwing random shit. Since our last recording I think we were under a Trump presidency, right? And then here we are under a Biden presidency.

[00:24:01.990] - Caullen

What's the difference?

[00:24:03.530] - David

That's literally... It's funny because I added that as a question, but I was like, this is rhetorical as shit. Because it's truly not. I think that's where I'm surprised. I'm surprised- not necessarily with Soapbox and how we've reacted. Because I do think, to your point, we've remained consistent. I think something that we oftentimes reiterate is, the moves that we've made have been hella intentional, whether they're baby steps or we're crawling or we're running. All the moves, all the decisions are definitely intentional. I think because of that, that's why we've seen the reception of our work, of our products, of our community, and our networking, I think, has been really dope in terms of how that's evolved. Then comparing that to the world, it's shocking that we still... Part of me, there's so many areas that I still feel like we're in 2016. And I mean, we're having another Biden/Trump election in November. And so how far are we truly from that? How much have folks actually learned from that? I don't know.

[00:25:09.690] - David

But I do know that folks and comrades definitely now look at Soapbox as one of those movement and media makers that are doing the right thing. Cause I think the first two episodes, we were doing a lot of more small product type stuff. Microdocs. I think we talked about Chi DNA a few times. But I really do think these last few years we've- not stepped it up, but I think the snowball has definitely gotten bigger going downhill. In terms of the type of products we've been working with, to the end result. I think you named some of the things in terms of having the opportunity to screen films in different states and different cities through film festivals, through organizing structures, through etc. Not that I didn't think that was going to happen, but I was like, Yo, the amount of stuff that that's doing. It's not just one film, it's not just one photo, it's not just one post that's accomplishing this. It's a collective of things.

[00:26:12.160] - David

And then because of that, people feel in a position to reach out to us and want us to collaborate. I think that's where I just feel incredibly humbled in terms of everything we've done, 2019, 2021 is right. These last three years, clearly, we've made the right moves. So I'm only ever more excited of 2024 and moving forward. Because I do think if we think too much of the world status, we can get a little scared and a little... Even depressed or thrown in the dumps in terms of like, Oh man, we've been doing all these things, but nothing's changing. But that's not necessarily true.

[00:26:49.950] - Caullen

Thinking about that and our last episode with Camila and thinking about memes and social media and all that. I don't know the account, but there was some independent news account that was like, Hey, if you're posting about Gaza or you're thinking about Palestine and doing what you can, is anything working? People are still being killed. The death toll is still rising. What- is this working? He's like, I hear you. I know you're like, What-

[00:27:15.790] - David

Disheartened, yeah.

[00:27:16.880] - Caullen

Yeah, disheartened. Supremely, but he's like, Yes, it is. He's explaining why. Explaining PR and the court of "public opinion", as much as that shouldn't sway people to do things, when we use it right... When you use the tools of your day, whether that's TikTok or direct action -- shutting down highways -- using all those things at once. To resist taxes, of course. How that makes an impact. And boycotting, specifically. Then strategically, will make certain companies not invest in Israel or cross institutions or what have you. He's like, yes, it makes a difference. And he lists all the reasons why and how. We'll link in the episode notes.

[00:27:52.590] - Caullen

But it was nice and I saw it when I was in my head about that. As far as, I bought this couch last month, and I didn't have to buy the couch. But I had the money to buy the couch, and it matched up with something else I bought. And I wanted to look cute in my apartment. I'm trying to upgrade things. And be an adult. But also, there is multiple genocides happening. And I started and work for this entity that fights against this shit. It's like, Do I donate that money for the couch? You know what I mean? Those are real things I think about now. I think, not that I didn't treat myself in 2019 at all, but it's like.... Well, taxes fucked me this year, so we don't have the disposable income at all. But there was a little more disposable income before taxes on April 15th that I had. I'm like, I want to start upgrading my apartment little by little. So it was like, things like that where I'm like, Caullen, as a human in the world. And always having somewhat of a class privilege, right? But still being a straight cis, but Black man in this world, in this country, that still means something. So it was navigating your identities, navigating what actually is privileged, right? At least how I see it, but also is a march of the identity at the same time. It's always nuanced, it's always mixed, it's always weird.

[00:29:08.680] - Caullen

But I've been thinking about that as far as finances are involved as well. And where that's going. Cause like- where the intention and passion is going. Either through Soapbox, or just Caullen in the world, I feel like you can't... I mean, we can separate those things, of course, but it's still like, Oh, if I believe in these things, how am I carrying them out? We all have... This podcast is going to be on Spotify. Spotify doesn't treat artists well. It's like, does that mean we shouldn't make the podcast? I would argue no, because we're doing it. But also, I would hear an argument against it. You know what I mean? So this shit's always... It's complicated, but it also points to how big and powerful these systems, but specific entities and companies that people are and the power they wield and have are. And so I think that's also some reason why I'm very much for direct action, even if it very much inconveniences folks that might be on your side.

[00:29:58.670] - Caullen

So that was kinda a rift. But what I was going to say, this is a shift. So you can answer this, or take this a certain way if you want, or go somewhere else. But with... I know I said it's not an advice podcast, but I'm thinking of folks who are navigating creative jobs, or a creative endeavor; whether you're a painter or an artist, or you have a 9 to 5 but you want to leave it to do something else. Or even folks I know in the fitness world who work a 9 to 5, or have a desk job, but they want to be a full-time personal trainer, so they teach a couple of classes, and they want to slowly transition. I'm curious for you with either modified mixology or just marketing in general, or restaurant work which you have tremendous skills in, and you like to an extent. Even for me, I'm giving me answers to myself, I'd love to hear from you. But for working in fitness and enjoying that and liking it, there was a time, at least for me, where fitness was most of my income. I was freelancing here and there, Soapbox made me nothing. And then Soapbox was making a little bit, I was still freelancing a little bit. And the fitness making a little bit. And that's, as far as Caullen's finances, that changed as far as how much I need from each bucket.

[00:31:01.160] - Caullen

And of course, you get older, you're used to a certain standard of living, maybe that changes, too. But I'm curious what that looks like for you? Or answering that and projecting it to the folks who might be listening to this as far as like, Oh, I love to do printmaking or paint and shit. It's my hobby, I want to do it because I love it, but also I want to only do that. So I got to monetize a little bit because I live under this system called capitalism. If I have to do that, how do I do that in a way that I can still eat even though I'm 9 to 5 or my other job, but slowly move over to that transition? I know we both know folks like that, who do something outside of what's sustaining them financially and wanting to change. So speaking to those people, particularly, because that is what this episode is kinda about as far as maybe other folks. What would you tell them? What was your experience? What is your experience? I know we're not done with that transition type shit.

[00:31:53.010] - David

I do think, and this was already said, but I really like how you pin it in terms of- This first started off as a hobby. It first started off as like, Yo, let's go do this thing. Let's go make some noise. We're not getting paid. We're not doing shit. We're not trying to get popular. I'm not trying to go viral. So understanding all those intentions and when we started doing this. Then slowly- I've never been, and this is not necessarily great, take my advice. But I've never cared about my finances, whether that's student loans or how much money I necessarily make. Or how much money I'm spending in a night, which is usually the problem. For me, it was just making sure that I was wasting- not wasting- but I was using my time in ways that I wanted to. For a long period of time, being in the hospitality industry, for me, there were things that drew me to that.

[00:32:45.990] - David

And we're probably sitting with Camila's last episode because that's the most recently recorded. But they mentioned they really wanted to do this specific job to be a probation officer. And so like, here's all these good things into why you want to do it. So transitioning, that, to me, is like, there's all the good things on why I want to do hospitality and why I wanted to invest my time there. I think for me, coming to consciousness, realizing that that's not where I wanted to spend my time. So making that decision for yourself, I think, can't be in the gray water. Which I think was a lot of 2020, 2021 David. Which is like, I do a little Ubering here, I do a little bartending over here, I do a little mixology over here. And then I do a little Soapbox.

[00:33:33.960] - Caullen

Rob a bank over here. A little tax fraud here. I get you.

[00:33:36.460] - David

Yo. It wasn't until after 2021 where then Soapbox was able to become more of a 50/50 in terms of my finances. That then I took it upon myself to be like, Okay, cool, Soapbox is something that I want to do in; what are other traits that I'm building with Soapbox that I can then use to monetize as well? Which is crazy because I think for a- something we always talk about is our hobby's dead. We're so busy trying to work within this capitalist system that everything needs to make us money somehow. And that's honest because I still got rent. You know what I'm saying? I still got credit card payments. I still got a car payment.

[00:34:14.700] - David

And so for me, I think some of the things I did was simply asking myself, if understanding that I'm not making X amount of money as I could be managing a restaurant. Which that could have been a step. If you're looking in the hospitality world, you go into management. Or you get into that type of world. I was like, No, you know what? I don't want to manage that, I'd rather manage this. I think being able to make those decisions and then looking at, Okay, what are things that I can then develop? I think some of the skills that I've developed is being able to produce and direct various projects, film projects, that in 2019 was not in my bag, so to speak. Something, if anything, I encourage our listeners is if you find yourself wanting to do something and the issue is money, think about, Okay, cool, what are other things that that thing brings?

[00:35:07.810] - David

Had it been another... Had I chosen to continue with Soapbox, but I was like, you know what? I really like design. I could have developed my design aspects through the work that we do. Soapbox and then I could do design work instead. So it's like, the decision to remove myself from the hospitality industry, I think, was the first step for myself. Then finding what other opportunities, that I'm already surrounded by, continue to uplift that. Because I think to your point, and that's how we're naming, Soapbox is not the majority of my life because of all the areas that Soapbox has. We have the podcast, we have films, we have Soapbox Action Works, organizing. We got the 501(C)(3) itself. You know what I'm saying? There's all these areas that now I'm able to encompass and skillshare through all of these things. It's enough for me then I'm like, yes, this is what I want to do. I'm fulfilled.

[00:36:03.340] - David

Because I think the other issue is, you go into something, you go in 100, and then you realize it's not what you want. So you either have to backtrack or you have to evolve, develop in a way that maybe you didn't really want to. Make decisions and choices that maybe don't sit with you. Not to say that Soapbox has been all dandy and flowers because- not the case. We've had serious conversations and hard moments to deal with. But I think all of them, sitting and understanding with grace, understanding the end goal, which is the liberation of our people. I think those have just been things that- had I been working elsewhere, I don't think they would have been seeded in me the same way. I think it is that development from 2016 to now that I don't see anything- I'm in my own matrix when it comes to Soapbox. And how it works, how we develop, why we do what we do. Again, I just say with the fact that I'm having conversations with people who have seen some of our products, who have seen some of the films or projects, or they listen to podcast episodes. And it's like, I'm glad that it's finally at a space where we knew it was going to be. It's only telling for me like, Okay, how much further can we take this? How much more refined can the skills that in 2021, I was learning, how better can I refine them? How more can I as a leader- because that's also something I feel I've been able to cement myself in as just an individual person.

[00:37:36.970] - David

Because I think one of the check-in questions we had for ourselves was like, What's something that we've evolved since the pandemic? For me, it's being more confident. Being more confident in myself. Being more confident in the decisions that I make with my team. That includes... That's you like, 90% of the time. But it's like having that courage first, because we failed. I think an issue with 2019 David or 2020 David is like, you're worried about not everything coming out right. You know what I'm saying? This post, you're going to fuck it up. Or the campaign is going to fucking suck. Or like, the thought you made on like, Yo, let's actually do this for the intro, it blows.Yeah, you're going to fail, and I think that's something that's developed for David, at least, that I think is positive. I think a lot of people encourage that. It's like, It's okay to fail as long as you continue to try to evolve it.

[00:38:24.710] - David

But the one thing I take it further in is, it's not like you're looking to fail. It's not like we're trying to fail. It's more so of like, get it done because then you'll have an opportunity to do it. I think organizing has really put that first and foremost in my mind. Like, you're at an early action, you're like, Oh, this really worked great. You try to replicate that to another action, maybe that doesn't do the same thing. That doesn't mean it was wrong. That doesn't mean the tactic itself was incorrect. Like, using that type of language. No, we have to also know how to adapt. That's why the term I use is like, how have you seen Soapbox evolve? Because it's not that it's changed, it's just that's just part of the process. It's organic, it's living, it's breathing as we are. That's a very long... I think that's the most I've ever talked on- as a response.

[00:39:12.810] - Caullen

That's not true. Lies.

[00:39:12.810] - David

That's not true. But no, I think, yeah. And to listeners, I think for myself, the last thing I'd mention is I've also started holding myself to a higher standard. In terms of in being more confident in wearing new hats, in bringing and being more of that leadership role. I've also created new standards within my own peoples; which is my loved one, my partner, my colleagues, my boys, and/or partners and collaborators. And I think David was definitely one of those people who meshed everybody into one ball. Treed everybody the same because we try to be a good person through and through. Not that you don't have to do that. Not that it's mandated or it's wrong to do so. But I do think as we develop, as we grow, as we become more mature, I think creating some of those boundaries are only healthy in the ways in which we support one another.

[00:40:13.960] - David

I think one of the things that I've really appreciated with you, Caullen, just to name it, is the way in which- we've had plenty of people come into and out of the door. The metaphysical doors of Soapbox. Through and through, it's kinda been me and you holding things down. I think having that develop to a point like, we trust each other fully, where we lean on each other for certain things. Understanding your strengths, understanding my weaknesses, and vice versa. I don't know. I think those are things that you want to think about in terms of, you really love this thing, what are the things that are bringing you to it? How badly do you want it? What are you going to learn from it? And then who's going to be there with you doing it? It's very rare that you're doing everything completely, completely by yourself. If you are, then maybe I wouldn't be doing that. I might encourage you to pick a hobby that includes other people. Or do the sole hobby with other people. You know what I'm saying? I don't know. There's ways to get around it.

[00:41:12.480] - Caullen

You're in the subreddit of the niche of people that are doing the same thing you're doing.

[00:41:14.340] - David

Ohhhoh, you know, why not? Yeah, that's a little bit about me, Caullen, but what about you? How have you felt that? How do you take that?

[00:41:24.060] - Caullen

I forgot the original question. How do I take what?

[00:41:26.830] - David

In terms of for our listeners who are thinking-

[00:41:30.070] - Caullen

Ohhh, the....

[00:41:30.070] - David

And I think with you, it's so interesting because I think you had an opportunity to talk with Soapbox being your brain baby for so long I think it's different. I think you could speak to the entrepreneurship a bit in a very unique lens. I guess that's why my question was, what's surprised you from your thought baby to.. Not the "t-h-o-t" baby, but the other.

[00:41:48.040] - Caullen

Yeah. T-h-o-t. *laughing*. We can go there, too. It's a different episode. I forgot what was my question originally to you. I think with the more structural stuff and the finances and energy and all that, I guess, luckily, in a certain way, with the fitness world, I do fitness class on the side, as many folks know. What's nice about it is amenable to different life structures. There's some folks who are full-time trainers who still have a not 9 to 5 structure of work, but many hours they put into weekly. There's folks who have "9 to 5s". Not quote, unquote, 9:00 to 5:00. Traditional 9 to 5s, or-

[00:42:32.210] - David

7 to 3s or whatever they call them.

[00:42:32.980] - Caullen

Yeah, whatever you're working nowadays. Work from home and shit. Have those jobs, but also train twice a week or something, have a couple of classes. And there's me who- now it's 50 hours of Soapbox, 10 or more to training, whatever, so it's a little different. But there was a time where I was freelancing a lot: production managing, ADing on films and stuff. Then was also slowly building Soapbox. And then also was training 20 plus classes a week. So that's where most of my income came from. Freelancing was every once in a while. Or like shoutout Quinn Wilson, B'nB alum, dear homie, he got me on a lot of gigs, my mid 20s and stuff. It was a definitely a trajectory or different times in my life, post-graduating in undergrad, that my work and finances were real different. The whole time, I was building Soapbox slowly. But I think, I want to say 2015, 2016 is when it was like, okay, something needs to give. I want to put energy into this. And then you hopping on, obviously, definitely helped, of course. I think it depends on when that is in my life, but I think it's been nice having flexible jobs within capitalism that have given me funds to pay rent and eat.

[00:43:44.880] - David

Yeah. Shout out Postmates.

[00:43:46.500] - Caullen

Like, gig economy, right? Let's talk about it. Like fitness, like freelancing on film and stuff, but going fully into freelancing or doing a union type of thing or working all the things in Chicago as far as bigger films or TV shows or independent stuff- that didn't... I wanted to make my own shit, right? But that didn't really appeal to me. And also like, hard work and a path that you have to work hard to get to. Not that Caullen’s afraid of hard work, but it's like, you got to choose and go all in. Fitness-wise, was never trying to train full-time. I like it, it's fine. I'm good at it, but it's not my bag 40 hours a week. It was always Soapbox. Then there was a time where I realized, as I was getting older, and I don't know what year this was, but it was like, alright, I need to put up or shut up type shit.

[00:44:33.190] - Caullen

And so with that, and with talking to you earlier on, talking to our homie Taylor early on, too, how do we finance this, but hold... Not even hold the line politically with our ideology we put out in the world and liberatory practices and movements and campaigns and abolitionist stuff. But also just creative jobs in general. If you're a great painter, dope, you're not probably making a whole bunch of funds. We have folks in our orbit who are awesome visual artists and filmmakers and stuff. Luckily, some folks are doing pretty decent for themselves, but it's like, make your own so that it's truly your own- it takes years. You can measure it in decades almost to really get to where you want to be financially. And so with that, and working to take down the system, that's not a lot of money in that. Because you're taking this actual system that actually makes that, makes that valuable, and makes people valuable because of how much they make, which is inherently flawed, of course.

[00:45:23.620] - Caullen

All that's to say, part of that and trying to, I don't want to say convince, but talking about what we do and what we think is important as far as reframing and cultural organizing being important... At the same time as we have these flashpoint moments, again, like a Trump, like a COVID, whatever whatever; then talking to funders, shout out Crossroads Fund. They were one our very first funders; super radical, super abolitionist, super dope. And because of COVID, the uprisings, and folks in the nonprofit industrial complex seeing the immediate need for people to have funds and resources. And seeing how that need wasn't just because of COVID, it's because of capitalism, and all the violences we know to be true. Funding that through an org like Crossroads, being able to get more funding for Soapbox, and keep our line. Hold our line creatively. Hold our line culturally, and hold our line politically, keep doing the work, and be able to do more, thank our comrades more, and to live better ourselves.

[00:46:23.650] - Caullen

Luckily, these flashpoint moments hit when we were actually evolving as professionals and people. And it is sad to me that it takes a pandemic and a global uprising against white supremacy and carceral institutions to awaken to that in the funnels of capital that make philanthropy, which is a flawed institution, that we benefit from in the same way. Again, dealing with the nuance, right? To be able to live the way we want to live, or at least better. It's complicated, it's nuanced, but knowing those levers of power, I think is important as we do it, as we live in it. And so for me, I think it's just been like- I knew I wanted to be all in, but it was so scary taking a risk. Then you hopping on was kinda to help out me/Soapbox and that interested in being an outlet for you. Then that changing, too. Then you're like, I wanna pull in on this, I need to get paid. It's like, I know you do; and I do, too, and we're trying to figure it out. It's tough, right?

[00:47:19.650] - Caullen

I think that's the responsibility when things happen in the world, it's like, how do you- not just react, not be reactionary, that's what they do, right? But also hold the line as far as, this is that system that I was talking about, and here's how it manifests as an event. This event is never isolated. And being able to frame that in a way that invites people in, but also challenges them- and challenges yourself as you lean deeper into your-

[00:47:43.870] - David

If you do it right.

[00:47:45.080] - Caullen

If you do it right, yeah. To your point, I love what you say about some shit isn't great, we'll fail. Or like, I don't like that shot, but it's all we have, and we have to use it. I mean I won't name projects, cause there's projects I watch now where I'm like, "Fuck, why didn't we do XYZ?" But it's like, It's out there, we're doing it. We're all experimenting.

[00:48:02.690] - Caullen

But luckily, what was most of Caullen's income years ago through fitness, is not as much the case now. I told you this before, via off mic, but like, yeah, I like teaching classes, I think it's fun. I like fitness. I think it's important. If we're talking about liberation, and are people living longer and more healthy, then we're talking about everything that fitness says it's supposed to be about, right? But it's very much not. The buckets we all traverse and that we see as separate are in a lot of ways, but also aren't because we're still humans in the world and things are important. And "politics" are at play all the time. So understanding that and being able to frame that and move in a way that feels good. But also pushing ourselves and our people around us to do better and think better, I think is important. I think there's never really a position or a time to back down from that.

[00:49:06.820] - David

I just want to piggyback off one of the things you mentioned in terms of it bringing people in. I'm just thinking about Soapbox and the amount of folks who have come in and out of the doors; from collaborators to comrades to people who are like, Yo, I'm doing this thing, I really love what y'all doing, can we collaborate type shit? To be able to not only be able to funnel our own creative juices and interests, but to also be able to be available to a community of folks who may not even have started in that community, but have found that Soapbox is as much of a vehicle.

[00:49:50.380] - David

How many people have we talked to who was like, Yo... Thinking about Greg the other day, I was like, Well, Greg, what do you want to do once you graduate? He's like, I want to do this. I want to do what you all are doing. So those are things that, to me, it's like, 1) it's encouraging, right? But 2) it's also like, that's where I go back to how are we holding ourselves accountable? How are we holding Soapbox accountable? And it's that. It's where we have our community, we have our peers, we have our colleagues who are part of this as much and little as they want to be. I think that's the distinction. I know early on, it was always like, it's a Caullen and David show even before it was me and you so adamantly on the podcast.

[00:50:29.190] - David

One of the things I'm ever more excited to continue to pound on in people is like, Yo, it's actually... It is Caullen and David. Yes, it is Black lead, but it is a plethora of creatives. We're looking at the one in me cut with Mia a little bit ago. It was like, How many people have poured their sweat and blood into this 25-minute cut? In terms of all the things that a piece of film can include. On the other side of the coin, it's like, That's why so many people fuck with it. That's why so many people are impressed by it. That's why so many people have become fans because they see the fruit of the labor that exists. Now I feel like I'm talking to the audience in terms of like, This is what you could do for yourself. This is how you gas yourself up. This is how you do it. Like, Hold the line. I don't know. Just shit like that.

[00:51:22.100] - Caullen

Sell me this pen!

[00:51:23.060] - David

I was going to be like, Yo... Also, in terms of- I think one of the things I just want to mention in terms of like, it's shitty that we have to think about it all in terms of finance. Like, Oh, am I making enough money?

[00:51:37.860] - Caullen

Credit scores.

[00:51:38.430] - David

Right. It's like, and/or it's like, Am I making a livable wage? Let's use that terminology. For us, when we're talking to grantees, when we're talking to people like that, it's like, Yeah, we want to be able to survive. That was some of the language we were originally using. But yeah, I don't know. I still think we're learning a lot. We're still learning a lot in terms of how the nonprofit industrial complex works and operates.

[00:52:05.580] - David

I think, and I appreciate you- again, we're always 100 in terms of we're benefiting off of philanthropy, and we're aware of that. However, what we're also making sure to do is exploit the wrongs and the issues and the hypocrisies that exist in philanthropy. I think that's also one of the ways when people are like, when I hear like, Oh, how are you holding the line? What are the things that you all are doing differently? You know what I'm saying? It's like, those are ways that we can point to directly. We haven't had an opportunity where like, I don't know, CNN hasn't come to us and be like, Yo, we need you all to be some-. And if that did, we'd probably be like, No, fam.

[00:52:42.240] - Caullen

Wait, what would CNN do? What would they ask us to do?

[00:52:43.670] - David

Ask us to cover the DNC, whatever, because they've seen us cover other things. I don't know.

[00:52:49.000] - Caullen

*laughing* That would be wild.

[00:52:49.000] - David

It'd be a conversation that we have in terms of, Okay, how do we want to hold this? How do we want to react? Because at the end, again, we're taking the moment. And I think you've named that multiple times. Depending on what the moment is, we want to be ready as an entity and an organization. But that's what I mean when we want to make sure we still hold our lines, whether that's politically, or whether that's within the restorative nature that we're continuing trying to develop. I know that's not something we talk about often, but as a nonprofit, the conscious decision to move in that route rather than be cooperative, corporate, I think is something that can be its own episode. In terms of why it is like, Well, why aren't you all a film production company instead? Like, Well, you all make movies, why aren't you an LLC? If we get to the nitty gritty, we can. But I think the...

[00:53:37.390] - Caullen

Oh, man, the taxes.

[00:53:39.040] - David

*laughing* But I think the why's here are what's important. In terms of decisions we as individuals need to make in order to survive in this capitalist system. And/or the give and take from it. Because I think you mentioned the other day, it's like, we got to figure out how to get health care. You know what I'm saying?

[00:54:03.742] - Caullen

Bro....

[00:54:04.120] - David

And that's part of, again, that give and take. At this point right now, I'm like, I'd rather get paid more and not have health care benefits. That's personally, me. But once we get to that level, those are conversations that we're having with people who are coming in and coming out of the Soapbox doors.

[00:54:21.360] - David

But I guess as we start wrapping things up a little bit, Caullen, it's been three years, I'm curious if there's something you're looking forward to for these next three years? If it's like one thing or idea that you have that you want to manifest or just something for either the self, Soapbox, or society. I mean, let's start with the self first. Tell me about the self. Is there anything for you three years from now?

[00:54:43.990] - Caullen

Yeah, I think, for myself, just having more free time. I think.... I joked earlier about society, Soapbox, and the self, all being the same, right? It's a joke, but I think the way my brain works and how I see the world, especially now, I just mesh all the things together. Again, I think things are all related, especially with the film and stuff and just narratives and how we show up. And how oppression and privilege are internalized and you have to unlearn and learn so much all the time.

[00:55:21.590] - David

It's tiring.

[00:55:22.550] - Caullen

It's tiring, but it's also beautiful at the same time. Especially when you see that manifest in yourself and the people you love and care about. For myself, I think I mentioned about being busy and distracted and stressed and acting out of that in ways that don't feel good. Or aren't good for the people around you. And so, I think for me, I just want to have free time. I'm never going to stop and turn my brain off completely, but just have more free time. If there's a weird house task that I have at the crib, instead of like, Oh, cool, I need to change this thing, or I'm going to put this poster up, I'll put it in my to-do in two weeks from now, and then I'll push it again, and then I'll finally do it a month later. I want to be able to be like, Oh, I need to put this poster up, and just put it right there.

[00:56:04.730] - Caullen

And I think about the time to that day and how every second I'm spending- even seeing things I love and care about or want to do, Oh, I need to put the admin stuff in for Soapbox and pay somebody that worked for us, whatever. Which is great, I want to do that. But also, I got X, Y, Z today and I'm leaving for this thing in an hour. There'll be moments and days like that. You get busy days, whatever, but I feel like that's the baseline for me. And I just want that to change. I want to not have to think about that that way all the time. For the self, I would say that.

[00:56:31.630] - Caullen

And I think for Soapbox, I mean, I think we're moving in an awesome direction. I think hiring more folks that do some of the stuff that you and I maybe do, in a better way would be awesome. And just having a good infrastructure that feels good for our size as we move forward. Working on scripted projects: TV shows, feature films, whatever, short films even for us, whether they're scripted versus documentary. Including that in our repertoire, not adopting more, but just including that. I do think that those fictional stories are powerful as well. I think for Soapbox, and me, being able to get my creative juice out in that way, something I'm looking forward to in the next little bit. That infrastructure for Soapbox, generally, and just having time to chill. And having folks that work with us to be able to have that time as well.

[00:57:23.470] - Caullen

General, a little vague, but I think those are the things for me. And, y'all, toss the bag to Soapbox. I know we're bragging about, Oh, we have an office now, nananaa. Yeah, we still broke. We still need this bag. We still need this bag. soapboxpo.com/support, if you want a little $20, $10, $5 monthly donation, we are here to receive that. We appreciate you. What about you? Y tu?

[00:57:50.520] - David

Yeah. I think for the self, I think I'm excited to deepen my roots. Again, in the decisions that I've made these last few years in terms of... Talking about bios and stuff, I've intentionally now been like, Okay, no, I'm a producer. That's what I'm doing. That's what I'm- 10 toes in, you know what I'm saying. Producing. One of the things, for me, for the next few years is just continuing to develop. And that includes my relationships with folks. I think I'm definitely sometimes... If I'm in a bad mood, most people feel that. Or if I'm... Just being a little bit more- not as hard on myself, but still making myself available to my community as a producer with my producer hat on. For myself, it's deepening my roots in that. Some of that shows in establishing a website for myself now. I have, thanks to Soapbox, and you mentioned Quinn and other folks, I have a body of work now that I didn't three, four years ago. That I'm actually very, very proud of and I want the world to see the stuff. Not for myself, and I think that's an interesting thing to balance that we didn't really talk about.

[00:59:11.080] - David

We have mentioned our egos on this podcast, but finding that balance between the David producer, ego, id, or whatever you want to call it. And then the David. The David who oftentimes is healing through a lot of the things that we're doing. Whether that's, again, in our unlearning and relearning. Whether that's in the ways in which we're putting our restorative practices and theories into real life scenarios and implications with our colleagues, with our comrades, with our enemies. That's definitely something we're thinking about.

[00:59:48.030] - David

But for myself, I'm really grateful that I've been able to step up in various ways and create infrastructure for myself. That's something I think I had never done. I think when you met me, I didn't even use Google calendar. We weren't great with communicating with folks. Emails like, what the fuck is emails, bro? And so we finally got... If anyone knows what a Second Brain is, my whole shit's on Notion and I'm super geeked about it. It's basically a bougie way of keeping track of my life on the Internet. And I've learned how to do that. These are systems that I've taught myself and/or I've learned from my community, from my comrades, in ways to not get burned out.

[01:00:27.330] - David

Because I think what I really appreciate from just this past project that I'm directing, one of our interviewees, they were asked, You've been doing this for decades. In terms of organizing, educating, being an ally as a white man of privilege, twice the amount of privilege. How have you not been burned out? He was like, Well, burnout is... He mentioned the way he said it, he's like, Burnout is a byproduct of you doing one of two things wrong. You either, one, You don't love yourself and love the world; or you love yourself, but you don't love the world. With that, the way in which you've taken on responsibilities and things you want to take on, it's not balanced. Therefore, that's why you feel like that. I thought, I sat with that for a moment.

[01:01:17.820] - Caullen

That's such a white man answer.

[01:01:19.190] - David

I'm deceased. Look at this guy.

[01:01:20.740] - Caullen

Call him out, Bill. We all got Bill Ayers.

[01:01:22.190] - David

That's hilarious.

[01:01:23.320] - Caullen

Naw, I'm kinda playing. I'm sitting with that. I'm chewing on that. That's interesting.

[01:01:26.860] - David

I mean, I do think- and with that is like, I think the reason why I'm connecting it is oftentimes, and we've talked about this. I think, especially in those early episodes of self-love. I think that's never been something that I have a strong knowledge or experience in. And so being able to hear from people who we admire, whatever, is like, You have to be able to do these two things. And so the last few years has been an example of that. And it was like, Cool, now we get it. Now I know self-care, we've talked about it and we joke about self-care; but no, these are the things that David needs to do to be good. To be able to show up to Soapbox, to be able to show up to my family's crib, to be able to do X, Y and Z, and get things done, and be productive, be proactive, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[01:02:12.690] - David

And so when it leads into Soapbox for the next three years, I'm really excited to continue to share roles and responsibilities with comrades and people who fuck with it. I'm even more excited of... Not that we want to put in more work for people, because learning and relearning is up to the individual. But it's like, maybe we meet motherfuckers who aren't all the way there yet. I'm excited to talk with those motherfuckers. Like, Okay, cool, but what is it about it that ain't working? Well, I mean, how did you not know? It's like, we have to vote for Biden right now- as an example. Where people who are still on this Biden train. It's like, okay, cool, let's use this as a learning moment. I think I've been ever more refined in my rhetoric and my ability to use all the tools at my disposal when talking about liberation. When talking about anti-capitalist systems, but being able to like...

[01:03:01.770] - David

We joke about it, but like, Yo, there's a meme that just popped in my head. It's Ditto, the Pokémon. And he's like, I wake up and it's still capitalism. And that's the truth for us every day. But the whole chase the bag, the whole hustle culture- understanding that it's because motherfuckers need to survive, is one thing. The other hand is playing into it.

[01:03:29.160] - Caullen

Romanticizing it.

[01:03:30.220] - David

For example, you and I, for example, we're not- yeah, we're chasing the bag, but it's not.. We're not chasing... It's not the same thing. It's not the same thing.

[01:03:37.410] - Caullen

I'm chasing the bag to destroy the bag, brotha!

[01:03:40.730] - David

I mean, that's basically it.

[01:03:41.380] - Caullen

Open your third eye, brotha!

[01:03:42.660] - David

That's literally it.

[01:03:43.970] - Caullen

With my kufi on and everything [laughs]

[01:03:44.830] - David

And I think motherfuckers understand that. I know you often, on our podcast, talk about motherfuckers donating and asking folks to donate. But shout out to all the people who have been donating already. Shout out to all the people who, since 2017, have opened up their pocketbooks and have seen the potential. Whether that's through Caullen or through David, or through the podcast, or through a film, or through organizing efforts. Because, again, that's the beauty of Soapbox Productions and Organizing, it is the spectrum of everything it encompasses. It allows an opportunity for so many people to get in where they fit in, as I often say. Shout out to everyone who's been donating because we see you.

[01:04:24.320] - Caullen

We see you. I'm going to tell you- I'll list you all up: shout out Zoe, shout out Ernest- that's my dad. Shout out Brent, I kinda strong-armed him to donate, but he did. Pam, Kelsey, Sam, Jessica, who's my old professor in grad school. They're the monthly donors so far. There was only a few names. There was only a few names. Your name could be read on the podcast. That's your privilege, right?

[01:04:46.560] - David

Now it's privilege.

[01:04:48.090] - Caullen

You're right. There's lots of one-time donors, too. So shout out to all of you all, I'm not forgetting you all. But the monthly donors, we can track it. We can understand how it's going to... We can have a bucket for the next year, the next month, whatever. We can plan better. I think that's why nonprofits, especially, are like, Hey, donate less, but consistently type of thing. It's a whole other world we're learning as we do the nonprofit song and dance, for lack of a better phrasing.

[01:05:16.750] - Caullen

But yeah, I love that answer. And shout out, Bill Ayers, I wasn't trying to come at you as a white man. I mean, I am, as a white man, but you've been throwing down for years. And I can't say that. But I'm chewing on that answer that he gave. I think it's actually very parallel to what I was saying earlier as far as like, Oh, I bought this couch, I need the couch. I want to upgrade and feel good about my apartment, but also capitalism.

[01:05:36.460] - David

Should you have donated to Palestine?

[01:05:36.460] - Caullen

Yeah, it's like, What am I doing? And it's like, What is that balance of the world and you and whatever? You can only do so much. I mentioned this before in previous episodes, but a scene in The Boondocks, Huey Begins with a hunger strike, sitting down at night, he's super hungry, he's super tired. He sits down and he's like:

[01:06:00.750] - Caullen

[audio clip from The Boondocks] Granddad, what do you do when you can't do nothing, but there's nothing you can do? You do what you can.

[01:06:07.420] - Caullen

He gives him some food and he walks away. It's just a nice tender moment, and it's like, that's- what Bill said, that's what I hear, too. It's like, you got to care of yourselves to take care of other people. It's complicated. It's nuanced. It's tough. Hopefully, some of what we shared- like artists in the world, with a creative job, and also, fuck the system. Fuck 12, all the things. Finding ways and strategies to practically- not just survive, but getting on the thrive path. But also navigate in a way that feels authentic and healthy and liberatory. But might be making sacrifices or leaning into things you don't want to lean into, only temporarily to survive and hold your people in ways that feel good. We hear you and we feel for you, and we're in the same bucket. We're all just trying to do the thing. Let's just keep on thinging.

[01:07:03.410] - David

Keep on thinging because it's not easy. It's not easy at all. But I do think, again, I think if anything, the one thing I definitely want to sit with... And I think, if Soapbox has done anything, it's helped establish a community. And I think that's the number one thing for folks, is understanding that communities do exist, and it's for a reason. Capitalism will tell you it's this individualistic, is you got to go do it, you got do this, that, the fifth. I think Soapbox is a clear example of that's not how it has to work. Because contrary to capitalism, there is actually an abundance. Capitalism is what makes things finite, because we need X amount of homes so that we can have X amount of people not having homes. That's just an example of the system that we all know all too well.

[01:07:52.340] - David

But if you've been out here in the streets uplifting Palestine, if you have been finagling your taxes so you're not funding our military industrial complex. Or whether that's you resharing a meme on the situation on the Congo or the presidency; I think all of this is crucial work. Get in where you fit in. Continue to educate yourself and your peoples, because unfortunately, we are in it for the long haul. So I think I told Cindy, if anything happens, I'm moving to Mexico. So I don't know about y'all. So let me know what's good. *laughing*.

[01:08:37.280] - Caullen

[Cartman voice] Screw you guys, I'm going home.

[01:08:39.040] - David

I'm going home. But with that, as always, all details will be in the episode notes. Peep all the things. And if there's anything that you've been listening to and you want to make sure that we count, or maybe we're missing, as always, hit us up on the socials. Bourbon 'n BrownTown on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

[01:09:00.340] - Caullen

No "o"s in BrownTown on Twitter.

[01:09:02.750] - David

No "o"s in BrownTown. But from Bourbon 'n BrownTown, as always, stay Black, stay Brown, stay queer.

[01:09:08.060] - Caullen

Stay tuned, stay turnt.

[01:09:09.280] - Caullen

We'll see you for the next one.

OUTRO

Outro song Thank you, Goodbye by GENTA.