BrownTown on BrownTown. Now-BnB audio engineer Kiera Battles makes her debut bringing in behind-the-scenes insights to the podcast as the gang unpacks the episodes, new series, and various recording environments that made up 2022. For better or worse, here's to 2023!
BrownTown on BrownTown. Now-BnB audio engineer Kiera Battles makes her debut bringing in behind-the-scenes insights to the podcast as the gang unpacks the episodes, new series, and various recording environments that made up 2022. For better or worse, here's to 2023!
With 11 total full episodes, this shortened year brought 8 guest episodes (3 repeat guests), only 1 with no guests, and 2 new series (1 ongoing; 1 completed). In addition to breaking down 2022 episodes, BrownTown chops it out about episodes from 2021, the unofficial "in the age of spin" framework throughout the tenure of BnB, recording virtually versus in-person and switching locations, unions for creative industries, as well as body positivity and fat liberation.
GUEST: Kiera Battles is the BnB audio engineer and all around audio extraordinaire who has been into music ever since starting the violin in the 4th grade and joining a choir in high school. She began her audio journey her junior year of high school and has enjoyed it ever since. Kiera graduated from Columbia College Chicago in 2022 with an Interdisciplinary degree in Audio Arts and Music Business and is currently pursuing a masters in the field at Berklee College of Music. Within these departments, she hopes to break into the music industry through both the audio and the business world!
CREDITS: Audio engineered by Kiera Battles. Episode photo by Aidan Kranz. Listen to all the episodes on your chosen podcast application! For more information on the podcast, check out Bourbon 'n BrownTown on the SoapBox website.
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BrownTown on BrownTown. Now-BnB audio engineer Kiera Battles makes her debut bringing in behind-the-scenes insights to the podcast as the gang unpacks the episodes, new series, and various recording environments that made up 2022. For better or worse, here's to 2023!
INTRO
(music)
BODY OF EPISODE
[00:01:16] David: I like to welcome everyone to another installment of Bourbon 'n BrownTown. I am your co-host, David. Out here sitting pretty on this cold-as-fuck December day. Someone who is not cold as fuck, and I guess he'll tell us why, is Caullen. As y'all don't know, we are recording this virtually. So Caullen, how you doing and tell the people where you at.
[00:01:39] Caullen: I'm doing okay. I'm trying to find joy and happiness in the midday, in this Florida afternoon. I'm an hour after y'all right now. So we are recording during the holidays. I'm in Florida visiting the parents right now. Contrary to popular belief, it's also cold here.
[00:01:56] David: Oh, really?
[00:01:57] Caullen: And not like cold when people in warm climates say, oh, it's 55 degrees, it's cold. No, it was like 25 degrees the other day. It was wild. So is that -30 like y'all in Chicago? Not the same, but it's been interesting being here. I'm like, oh, I'll pack three pairs of shorts, bet. And then you're like, I'm wearing pants and having to borrow my dad's jacket to go out. But I'm around family, around love. It's an interesting time of year, as in the year always is time for reflection, time for future thinking and forecasting and appreciating what you have. So it's been nice even though I've been working more than I set out to. And here we are recording, but I'm with y'all. I'm with the fam, so it's all good. How are you doing?
[00:02:36] David: Yeah. Oh, that's so exciting. That's so good to hear. Low key it's gonna- not that I'm like, yes, I'm glad he's cold too-
[00:02:43] Caullen: damn!
[00:02:44] David: No, not like that. But low key, for all of us here in Chicago... November wasn't crazy, you know, and so here we are in December, kind of suffering. On my end, I think...truly learning how to celebrate the holidays and the way I want to celebrate. I think a big thing that I've made changes in is like, for example, I don't...some people celebrate Christmas, as an actual celebration of Christ and mass, you know? And for me, I think something that I've really taken into more is like, no, it's just a holiday. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm learning to kind of make it my own thing more so; this year it was only me and my little brother and his kids.
[00:03:24] I've been an uncle now for a couple years, but I really feel like I'm finally going into that, into truly knowing what that means. And buying young people stuff I've found is very, very fun. Cause first of all, they don't really know what they like, they kind of just like anything- he's two years old, so thinkngi about shopping for a two year old. In contrary to you, Caullen I actually didn't do shit for the last few days, which has been really, really, really nice. I mean, granted, I wasn't at home. I didn't bring my laptop with me. So like, I made the steps necessary for me not to have to work. But truly been enjoying the holidays even with it being cold as fuck.
[00:03:55] I really appreciate you giving the context of like, this is often an opportunity for us to kind of think and prepare ourselves and come into, you know, with this end of the year type of attitude to 2023. And so here we are bringing you the retrospective. And so we didn't do this last year for multiple reasons. And we'll definitely dive into it a little bit more. However, this year we have the pleasure of finally having a really special guest, to be honest. And I think this is really exciting to finally bring it in.
[00:04:24] Caullen: Yeah. I'm also excited to be here with our guest, Kiera Battles. Kiera's been with us for a little bit now. And I'll let her expound on her journey with us for better or for worse.
[00:04:35] But for y'all that don't know- Kiera's in the background every episode this year and beyond. But Kiera is the B'nB audio engineer and all around audio extraordinaire. She's been involved in music ever since starting the violin in 4th grade and joining a choir in high school. She began her audio journey her junior year of high school and has enjoyed it ever since. Kiera graduated from Columbia College Chicago in 2022 with an Interdisciplinary degree in Audio Arts and Music Business, and is currently pursuing a master's degree in the same field at Berklee College of Music. Within these departments, she hopes to break into the music industry through both the audio and the business world. KB, what it do!?
[00:05:14] Kiera: *laughing* it's going.
[00:05:17] David: Yo, that's a fat bio, bro. You really out here. I know you're always telling us, you're like, yo, I'm doing shit. But like, you really, really out here.
[00:05:26] Kiera: Always. Yeah.
[00:05:27] Caullen: I know y'all don't know Kiera like we do, but saying "it's going" means "I'm doing amazing". You gotta up the positivity in any answers she gives us.
[00:05:37] David: It feels like it was just a couple years ago when you started working alongside Bourbon 'n BrownTown. Do you think you could provide folks a little bit of context of how it is that you came into the B'nB world and then SoapBox?
[00:05:50] Kiera: Yeah, so... I know back in my junior year I was like, I need to finally start doing internships. Just cause it was time, and then the world decided to crash and burn at the same time. But I ended up coming back to Chicago after that whole lockdown thing. And needing to actually buckle down because I was a junior at the time. So I was like, we're ending this whole college thing soon, so I need to get out there at some point. So Columbia has their whole Career Center- I was looking through Handshake, found Bourbon 'n BrownTown, and I was like- I edit, but not edit podcasts. So I was like, I'm gonna do something different for once. Because all of my high school career, we mostly did mixing for music. Just cause that's what he did, that's what he knew. So I was getting both worlds- I was getting live mixing, I was getting studio mixing, a little bit of mastering, still have to go back into looking into that. But found Bourbon 'n BrownTown, and enjoyed it. It was- I will say the first interview I'd ever had where one of the interviewers dropped an F-bomb in the middle of the interview. *laughing* And I was like, okay, this will be chill. And I have since stayed.
[00:07:30] Caullen: We call them F-olive-branches-of-peace at Bourbon 'n BrownTown. We don't leave them bombed. They're F-olive-branches-of-peace.
[00:07:42] David: Except when they deserve it. I didn't even...- I can't think of to that. But you're probably talking about me. And I don't know, I think- yeah. I think that's so funny. And so, that's so cool. So what I'm hearing though is like- and I guess... I always love doing podcasts, since the beginning. Cause it gives us opportunities to have conversations with folks that we may have never had prior to. And so you did name that. So you've been doing audio, like, why audio? Why is that the thing that you went to? Is it just cause you were playing the violin, or what were some of those steps there for you then?
[00:08:15] Kiera: I have no idea.
[00:08:17] David: That's fair.
[00:08:20] Kiera: My whole life has revolved around music. I started on the stage and somehow ended up behind the stage. I ended up behind the scenes my junior year because of the fact that my high school, which was an arts high school, had vocational learning. Though one of the programs was music composition or music performance, I'm not sure, I knew I was not a composer. I didn't really want to compose at the time. Though now that I'm in my masters, I've since learned that it might be something I want to do later. Just racking up degrees in random things. But in that course, I learned to do both live and recorded music, on top of the ability to still perform in orchestras.
[00:09:16] Like, I was in orchestra in high school, I was in orchestras outside of the high school. And that flexibility from that class and having my, either, morning as a junior blocked out, or my afternoon as a senior blocked out, allowed me to still explore music in a way that I didn't think would be possible. I have since learned that to add-on to audio, I wanted to do music business, and since then I have created some weird world that I want to be in. Because my masters will be in music business, my undergrad was interdisciplinary and I was able to just keep adding things, because I have a curious mind and I want to keep learning and keep doing and continue developing into a person who just does what she wants when she wants.
[00:10:23] David: Yeah. Just putting in work. That's so exciting. Thank you for sharing that. It was super cool cause I do remember you coming in at that point in time Genta Tamashiro- the OG of B'nB was like, yeah, I'm down a show them. Like, if they're down to learn. And I think that that process was kind of cool when watching Genta, also from Columbia, he came into the audio world and it's a little different- particularly to B'nB. But I think it was just a wonderful experience for everyone included to just see how it goes. And so, from then on moving forward, you jumped in, I think, 2021? If I'm not mistaken. After your internship, cause I guess you liked us enough so.
[00:11:06] Caullen: She couldn't find anything better. So it was like, ehh, all right, I'll settle.
[00:11:10] David: No. But I guess- and so what I would love to hear a little bit, as we start coming into some of the stuff that you've been working on from 2021/2022, was- so like, you were with us for the internship program. Things start continuing to move as they do, and then found yourself with the opportunity to spearhead Bourbon 'n BrownTown- how was that? Having come into the game with sound all your life, into this internship program with a group like Soapbox who drops F-bombs on a regular basis?
[00:11:44] Caullen: And Knowledge, son. F-bombs of knowledge.
[00:11:47] David: How was that experience for you kind of shifting into your role that you are now as our head audio engineer of this multi-year podcast?
[00:11:56] Kiera: For me, it was just a change of titles. Nothing really truly changed. It was like, okay, you're an intern, but you're gonna do these things. And then... I don't remember the title after the intern, but it was, you're now this, but you're gonna do what you did as an intern; and then like, four more things. And then me taking over; it was, you're gonna do these things, plus like, eight more. So it was like, oh, we're just gonna keep building on it- that's fine!
[00:12:32] David: They say more power, more responsibility. Come on now.
[00:12:35] Caullen: And more money. I mean, there's, you know.... We ain't balling out here, but it's like, a little something.
[00:12:42] David: Yeah. Genta did it pro bono for a year. So, thank you Genta Tamashrio, we love you.
[00:12:45] Caullen: Yeah. You left right when we started getting money. So Genta, you fucked up if you're listening to it.
[00:12:51] David: That's so great.
[00:12:53] Caullen: But it's nice to hear though. I think for us, at least for me, before I would kind of still communicate with Genta, but work with both of y'all in a certain way. And then from when it made the switch, Genta left, formally, I was sending my notes for the podcast to you. Or when us three just working together it was like, there is no Genta anymore. And like, we know Kiera does all the things, and has been doing the work- but we've always known Genta's there, and we had a relationship with him for years. And David's known him as a homie for years. And so it's like, not only this working relationship we have to do. And like, okay, maybe my time codes that made sense to Genta look weird to you, or vice versa. I'm like, oh, I can make these shortcuts with Kiera that I couldn't do with Genta. So this work relationship that kind of developed.
[00:13:35] And then- also like, as homies; saying what's good, and seeing- like, being able to talk more and actually see what's going on. Different stories happening in your personal life, and us being a soundboard for it, hopefully, has been nice and it's different. Whenever that switch up is made. So, it's interesting hearing from you, like, oh, I guess the same as it was before, just.... a couple more things that I had to do. And then Caullen was texting me, too much. But, you know, it is what it is.
[00:13:59] David: *laughing* so from there, we have some numbers here. So 2021... even for what it was, we were still able to have some really amazing conversations. We had about 15 episodes. 12 guests. As well as our first series.
[00:14:15] Caullen: Yeah, you're right. I think it was our first formal series having back-to-back episodes. Especially a series that we were doing collaboration with. Starting with ILRC who actually funded and kind of curated the Erase Gang Database video that we made- the micro doc we made with other cities uplifting their fights against incarceration, and for immigrants rights and things. So a three part episode talking to different folks- three part series, at least as far as the main episodes, talking to folks from different either cities or states about their different struggles. And it was interesting to seeing how those were connected. And also how the different terrain changes how you organize for one, and then also how media strategy works as well.
[00:14:59] And we did a #### episode of that series, as well as a trailer. So it did feel very full, and felt very cool doing that; working with homies from other places, and having new homies after the series was over. So that was kind of a big step for us in 2021 during this still weird time of like, COVID is still around, but there's vaccines, but then there's also the new variants and like, it's just this weird time in the world; us trying to do this kind of series with folks with who we don't know.
[00:15:21] David: For those who have not checked those out, it's gonna be 70 to 74. So definitely be free to go back there. But I think from there, we took a lot of that energy jumping into 2022. Which I think was very exciting for us. Not as many episodes. But I do think a lot of the conversations that we had in a lot of the series, and things that ended up developing, I think were incredibly, incredibly powerful.
[00:15:43] Yeah. And I think that was very exciting- 2022, we didn't record nearly as many episodes, but I do think, Caullen to your one point, I think from the Collective Freedom Project now, where we were able to create new series, and new types of how we wanted to continue to collaborate with folks. I think we only had one episode without any guests; which I think speaks a lot. We had eight guests, three of them which were already repeating guests. So kind of going back to this sort of creating stronger forms of community, but also, there's a reason why we're bringing these people back. Because they clearly know what the fuck they're talking about. But it's also, I think it's always exciting to have that other opportunity to touch on other things that we weren't able to touch on. And we'll definitely dive into the particulars of what episodes those were. And then lastly, as I named, two new series. One of them being the We Are More series which we've talked about plenty around this year, as well as the Whiskey & Watching, which I think kind of came from wanting to mesh more of our film backgrounds, or cinematic lenses with what we do at B'nB.
[00:16:47] Caullen: It's interesting, as- really the past two years, three years, too, we've had less episodes with just you and I, David. Which has been.... I'm choosing my words carefully... I really liked those episodes, right? That's kind of how the podcast started. And we would've really kind of dive into an issue. But now that our community continues to get larger and or more robust in certain ways. Like, we always have someone who knows more about something than we do, so it isn't just us chopping it up. So it's interesting being intentional, not about finding people to talk about certain topics, since we're topic based still; but it's intentional about like, okay, this episode it's just you and I, it's gonna be just you and I talking about something. Something that we can dig into in a way that doesn't feel like we're just rambling for 90 minutes. But also feels like we're playing off either our experience, background, insight, or what have you. So I do appreciate when we do have those moments as well, but 2022 was a fun year as far as those episodes. And reconvening community in a lot of ways.
[00:17:41] And also having two series. One a little bit different, which of course we'll get into, but the other one- We Are More series being something we did intentionally and talked about collaborators, the Illinois Prison Project about doing early on, but we kind of had that background from the previous year with the Collective Freedom Project about how we should go about doing this, and of our mistakes from 2021, and communicating with folks in different ways of it makes the partnership fruitful. And shout out to Shawn from Illinois Prison Project for being the homie collaborator.
[00:18:10] David: The plug.
[00:18:11] Caullen: Being communicative, and the plug. And paying us on time, unfortunately, that's a thing that's not always happening. So shout out to him. And all the collaborators out there we've worked with over the years- both B'nB and the broader Soapbox, for being homies and being able to hold ourselves accountable in different ways and making projects and cultural products and artifacts. Hopefully we'll live on years and years. But also grounds, not only folks who are doing movement work, but folks who watch our stuff and folks who at least see it out in the world and give it the time of day to learn something from. So we can start building these systems and start tearing down other systems to make the world we wanna see.
[00:18:46] David: Yeah. Yeah, that's really well put, Caullen. On that note, Kiera, I'd love to toss it to you- of the two years- because I think...you've mentioned the way in which you kind of came in and things just started growing, but is there any particular episode that jumps out to you? Or do you have a favorite of either the final product or the making of it? The people need to know.
[00:19:09] Kiera: I will say the W.O.R.K episode, 86, kept popping up in my course. Because we talked about unions for weeks. Especially musician unions, and actors and film unions mainly. And we had to discuss all of those, like, why are they important? And we even had to- one of our assignments was to build an entire case study using those two, and where we had to find issues that happened within those unions. I know one of our class discussions was on the benefits of being part of a union. And I even brought up the fact that unions are now becoming a necessity instead of like, "join it because it'll help you", than what it is now of, "join it so you can survive".
[00:20:10] Caullen: Ooh. Now like, hey, join just in case. Just in case you're employer- just in case. Join cause like, hey, you wanna eat? You better join this fucking union.
[00:20:18] Kiera: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Caullen: Woof.
[00:20:19] David: Wow. That's... low key, it's kind of like, it makes me always feel great when things like that kind of work out. So here you are, listening to a conversation of me and Caullen just going in on work and you're like, Hey, I've heard this before. And then you're in class, you're like, oh shit, this makes sense. That's kind of cool.
[00:20:35] Kiera: Yeah. Hilariously enough. The episode was recorded before we even talked about it in class and I was like, oh dang. Okay.
[00:20:42] David: Yeah.
[00:20:44] Caullen: So let me get that straight- you used it as.... did your class talk about it? Or like.. Break down the unpacking for me a little.
[00:20:54] Kiera: So I know, the week- week-by-week it was a new thing. So that week was talking about the unions. Especially unions for musicians because people learned it's still pretty beneficial. My whole discussion was like, a union for a creative is going to 100% always be beneficial, because people in the industry will always try to scam you out of money. They will try to take advantage of you in any way possible. Which that is the biggest part of why I'm in grad school now. Cause later on I want to be able to create a business that educates people in the industry before they jump right into it. Just so they can't be that person. Just so these veterans can no longer trick these people into signing bad contracts and bad music deals, and that they're getting all of their money.
[00:21:53] David: I think something that I really, really enjoyed was putting together the We Are More series in person, right? To me, having gone virtual- and we'll also dive into the story of how that's been. But I think for me, we were able to have that first conversation with Sandra. And unfortunately that had to be virtual just cause they weren't anywhere near us. But then with Dyanna and then Melvin, I think... it kind of just reinvigorated, truly, of like, sometimes we know folks, sometimes we don't. But I do think being in that space- and also the type of- the subject that it was. I think it was not- it wasn't super light, right? I think a lot of the experiences and the stories that we heard from folks on the We Are More series, both B'nB and micro doc series, they're heavy. And I think even having that physical space to give space- I don't know, I think changes it up for me. So I really, really enjoyed that. I still sit with a lot of the conversations that we even had with like, Melvin.
[00:22:59] Melvin: Well, I'm glad and happy to be out here every day. I find something new. I missed a lot of my life being incarcerated. So it's like being born again, being released. And The Illinois Prison Project made that possible. They got me out ahead of my time. I was supposed to been getting out in 2024, and they got all of my good time restored to me, and got me released early. So I just been out here, rebuilding my life, getting employment. I'm looking for me a new apartment right now, my first apartment in my whole- in my life, ever. And I did most of my adult life in prison. And I'm trying to adjust to society, learn the technology. Something as simple as using a cell phone. I haven't even got the, you know, the full knowledge of how to use a cell phone yet. I can make basic phone calls and stuff like that, but.. I don't know. I'm just glad to be out here, glad that Illinois Prison Project made that possible.
[00:24:15] David: Which is...to me, is really what it's all about. And so I think that was an opportunity. And I'm incredibly excited to- as we're thinking about next year of what other ways we can continue to use our infrastructure to bring about those types of conversations. And bringing people who oftentimes may not always be the one who, to Melvin's point, he's not usually the one who's doing the talking. But I think it's very, very important and very, very valuable to have folks like Melvin speak their peace, right? And I think that's what B'nB allows that space. So that, to me, that's kind of where, probably definitely, one of my favorite ones of the series this year. But Caullen, what about you? Any of them sat with you?
[00:24:57] Caullen: Just in case the listener is unfamiliar, can you speak more to who Melvin is? Like, why did you say that about him?
[00:25:03] David: Yeah. And to be specific. So Melvin was... he was our third participant on the We Are More series. And so I think- I had never- we had never met Melvin. I think for one. I think for a second, he had just at that time when we were trying to record he had just got out of the system. And so he was- part of our issue with even getting him to record was timing. And you know, when folks come out, specifically when they've been there for a long period of time, there's a catching up that is real time. To me, that's why I sit with someone like Melvin, as someone who does different types of work with prison and police abolition, sometimes there isn't enough of that personhood.
[00:25:54] He even mentioned as we're talking about it, cause that episode specifically sat on the SAFE-T Act, just cause we had to. Also with all the dumb shit that was being put out. The lies that were being sent around. Melvin I think was very interesting cause he was one of those folks who was like, you know what, I don't really know what's going on, but I kind of hear this, I kind of hear that. And I think that's also the reality. Not all of us are working... bringing professionals on everything that we experience. And so to me that was incredibly comforting. But also, I think giving, once again, that to and fro. Melvin, once again- for someone who said he wasn't much of a talker, I think he definitely shared a lot of himself that was useful. And to a certain degree, educational for folks. To be able to understand, and truly, if one is to have empathy- which is something I find incredibly important- one needs to be able to listen. In that listening there is an understanding, and then you can create emotion from there. But Caullen, I'd love to hear from you. Did you have a favorite episode or any of the episodes that stuck with you the most?
[00:26:52] Caullen: Yeah, it's tough just because I feel like the ones we always have- especially the ones this year- were all really special in a unique way. What's up there for me is episode 78, Black Farming and Finding Your Food Story featuring Pearl Quick, who's a dear, dear homie. I've known Pearl for decades longer than I've known you David. It was cool talking to her. I've learned so much from Pearl over the years, and hopefully that's gone both ways. In a variate of topics, and interpersonal things in relations and what have you. But I think talking to her about something she's really passionate about, really got me excited and grounded me in a lot of ways.
[00:27:31] And also hearing her be passionate about something and phrasing how she sees the world in a certain way and me asking- not in clarification, but like, I hear you cause I know you, but I can see how someone else could take how you're framing this a little differently, and I think that aspect is valid so can you explain more? And just talking to her in a way that was platforming her expertise in a way that I wanna make accessible to everyone felt really cool.
[00:27:59] Pearl: They are our history. And to watch that happen, I wanted to be a part of that. And I knew that that was my whole heart is to be a part of something that meant that my people could divest from this capitalistic mess. And remember that our abuelitas, our moms, everyone has been teaching us how to eat from jump. They have been doing this for decades. And you know how you're like, your Black mama, she'd be like, You went to that school and you think you're better than me, but I've been feeding you, I've been feeding your family, I've been feeding the family on this. And I'd be like, you're dead ass though. I get that. Like, okay, yeah, I respect that because you're right. You have been doing this shit for decades. So my bad for going to a white school and then bringing back white rhetoric because that shit is not okay. And that's what you do. You hear it enough- and I heard it for four years that I thought I could come back and be like, platano is not healthy. And she's like, go fuck yourself.
[00:29:08] Caullen: It was just fun hanging with the homies. And we hadn't talked about food until this year, like twice. So it was cool talking about food. And, you know, everything's political, we talk about that all the time; there's power and oppression and privilege in all the things, including food, including and especially food, you could even argue. And so the topic itself was kinda interesting. Then also the thing on history and Black folks in America, you know, just making it from the ground up as we always do, was kind of cool hearing it from someone that wasn't just me, you know what I mean? So that was dope.
[00:29:37] I think on the same lines as far as things that, not really us in this conversation, but folks in the general sense don't take it as political or supercharged or powerful or what have you- episode 85, the Politics of Dress part one, part two on the way, with Hannah Linsky was dope. Cause Hannah's been a good friend for a long time now. And talking about how we dress ourselves, in a way that has all the heavy meaning and coded values and all that stuff we always talk about in Bourbon 'n BrownTown. But in a where we were just talking about what we wore when we were like 12, and why that mattered so much, and what was reflective of where we were in our culture experience and our political experience during that time, which is kind of fun. I love talking about things that are seemingly not political that are really rich in all those things. So I think that's a sweet spot for me and how I came into consciousness. And so those topics kind of helped get that out with folks who know much more on these certain aspects than I do. And the homies, right? It's always about talking to the homies.
[00:30:41] Hannah: It's important to understand that fashion is both a really powerful tool of capitalism. I'm blanking on who said this, but there's this quote... a historian is quoted saying "fashion is capitalism's favorite child".
[00:30:59] Caullen: Ooohh whewwhew! Go crazy.
[00:31:03] Hannah: It is such a powerful tool of capitalism and it's also a powerful tool for state control. And the ways that we see the world and the ways that we interact with each other do rely on how we perceive others as being dressed, as how we present ourselves. And it's so ingrained in us that I think it's, like you're saying, it's not something we always name. And so yeah, kind of going into this conversation, understanding that it's a powerful tool in so many ways, and we can use that and let it control us, or it can be a way to subvert that control and that power.
[00:31:36] Caullen: So I think it's hard to pick any, but those two kind of stuck out to me. They were just very different. Yeah, they're very different. And one thing I do wanna name as far as the We Are More series was really special for a lot of reasons.
[00:31:48] But, we have done a lot of general PIC abolition work for the past several years. Mainly around policing. Mainly around policing in Chicago. But, and we have friends who are working on prison abolition work, specifically prisons and jail policy and abolition, and all the things. And so, that's something I've known about, and known enough for like, I know why prisons are bad, right? But I don't do the work where I'm working with folks who are incarcerated, formerly incarcerated all the time, and really knowing the nitty gritty in how the system works as institution and the ins and outs of that. And so it was just fascinating talking to folks who have been impacted by the system and work in that same kind of sphere, or don't, in real time. As we were also organizing with the Coalition to Decarcerate IL and doing more prison abolition work this year too, there's always....we're always learning, and we're always building and it feels really good. And so it's cool making a media event- cultural artifacts out of that, that are so multidisciplinary; having the video, having a micro doc series, and presumably maybe an editorial piece in 2023, who knows.
[00:32:58] David: And at the beginning of the year, we've continued to grow, I think. Genta made his formal leave some time ago. And on that, Kiera definitely came in and stepped it up and has been supporting us. And on that note, someone else who we'd love to give a very special shout out to is Jamie Price. They've definitely been supporting Soapbox in various ways throughout the years, mainly through transcription. And for us that's something that we took as an opportunity to only get better in; is creating accessibility for folks. But also it's also cool to have an archive for ourselves, and look how bad we talk sometimes with words.
[00:33:31] *laughing*
[00:33:31] Caullen: And non-words sometimes.
[00:33:35] David: And non-words. So that, you know, definitely shout out to Jamie who I think has also been finding themselves and establishing more of a role. I think to that one point, Caullen, our most recent episode couldn't have been done without her- featuring Shanti. About philosophy of food. And that was a connector there. So it's like, for us it's constantly just manifesting what we're talking about. Where it's like, people power is where it's at. And so, shout out to Jamie for that and we're really excited to see what we can continue to do together in 2023.
[00:34:04] Caullen: And one of the behind the scenes notes on Jamie is she found Soapbox via Instagram in 2020. I wanna say end of summer, early fall 2020 when nothing was going on, everything was very chill. And I think I put up something via Instagram on Soapbox, like, Hey, can someone transcribe some videos for us? That'd be great cause we don't have them, and we should cause of accessibility- but also, I need to just sleep, I can't do it all the time. And Jamie was kind enough to transcribe a bunch of videos for Soapbox. Then we reached out to her again and she was down to be part of the team. So very, very special place in our B'nB hearts for Jamie.
[00:34:44] And I think just the year in general was funkier in a lot of ways. David mentioned earlier, we kind of went on a hiatus for several reasons during the beginning of the year. Once we kind of got back going, it gave us a chance to recharge and to reflect and to think about what we wanted B'nB to be; especially with a larger team and with some financial resources able to pay that team.. at least to a little bit of an extent that we weren't able to do in years prior.
[00:35:16] But something that was always kind of- not a thorn- but difficult to navigate, is that 1) COVID is always still a reality. But we were at a point in the spring where things were looking like, "better". I hesitate to say, cause in two years, like, who knows what the fuck happens from here from this recording on... but, somewhat better! And so recording in person wasn't something we could not do. And so we wanted to do that again. And we feel... I think I speak for David and I, it's a different energy as far as talking to someone in person using body language. It's just different being in person, right? And so we wanted to do that again, but we didn't have a place to record at.
[00:35:52] The place we recorded at closed down during COVID. There was a lot of bouncing around at different places. And so during the entire year we recorded virtually, we recorded in person at a homie's of mine. They have a recording studio in their building in Chicago, which is in their home, which is super dope. So kind of borrowing that. And then also recording at the Let Us Breathe Collective and the newly christened Malik Alim studio, shout out. And so being at two different places in person, and then also recording virtually now at the beginning of the year, and then with folks who are... who don't live around us.
[00:36:30] David: Abroad.
[00:36:31] Caullen: A little stressful and a little tough to figure out- especially wanting to record in person again. So I'm curious to y'all- actually, I'm curious not to y'all- I'm curious, Kiera, what it.... if you have any thoughts on 1) recording virtually in general, and what that process is like for you? And then, recording in person. You know, obviously it's a little more of a hassle recording in person. But also like, do David and I present differently? I'm just kinda curious from the back-end what that feels like other than the logistical mess that it can be sometimes.
[00:37:04] Kiera: I know for me- since I had started, I was only doing these online.
[00:37:12] David: Ohhhh, that's right. That's right. Yeah.
[00:37:14] Kiera: They were all completely online. So once we actually started doing in-person recordings, it was now- actually when we did one, and that was with me in charge... when they started. So I was like, oh, so now I have to figure this out. Because I hadn't done them yet because I knew the format we had that Genta taught me with doing it completely online.
[00:37:45] So it was just now, okay here's what you've been learning for years, let's actually apply it. And within that it was like, oh, here's a new realm. Because I could compare it to like, a lot of kids went to the movies for the first time this year because of COVID. It was like-.
[00:38:06] Caullen: Whoaaa, facts. I didn't even think about that.
[00:38:09] Kiera: Yeah. So it's like, oh, you're doing your audio things that you already have been doing for the first time again since COVID, and you're actually putting all these things in practice instead of, almost, in theory since what had happened. Because I will say with me when everything shut down, I was just getting into the hands-on approach with audio. So that shut everything down. And as soon as we started moving out of it- I will say with Columbia, they had to figure out where the holes were in students that had the hand-on experience, that had just a little bit of hand on experience, and then the ones that had none. And because you can be within your own cohort, but you could still be at 12 different levels. And it was a struggle.
[00:39:06] David: So how has it been then, I guess, as we've seen that transitioning? cause we then started doing the majority of them in person. Especially when we could. How was that, you finally getting those hands on- also working in different spaces, different times? Sometimes rescheduling cause of calendar, you know what I'm saying? So how was that experience been for you as our audio engineer?
[00:39:26] Kiera: I will say the biggest thing was like, oh my god, finally! Because of- Again, a lot of my stuff that I was doing was within theory, and a lot of the stuff I was doing was "when we get back to this" and "when the world is normal again". So a lot of what I've been looking forward to has either gotten pushed back, rescheduled, or like with COVID, there's been up and down spikes of, "we can do this, but we can do it only this way" so you're not getting the full experience of it. And then it's like, okay, then what's the point? So doing the in-person recordings, it just allowed.... especially with switching locations, it allowed me to mainly just figure it out on the spot. Once we actually had something 100% down it would just be, tweak it to the space and we're fine.
[00:40:36] I, luckily, one of the classes I did take during COVID was live sound recording. And was with us using the Zoom kits and a trillion microphones, and getting whatever we could within our own home- because I wasn't going outside, it was cold when I took that class. So it was like, I had a class preparing me for this, but it's like, okay, now we're actually executing. So now... cause that's where I am in life, is the whole like, you graduated, you got the degree, but now you actually have to execute. And it's like, well, I don't 100% know what I don't know, because I have to do it.
[00:41:28] David: I think for me, I do remember when we first came in, talking about trying to establish the Zoom online thing. And to be honest, it's good to hear and understand, that it very much does differ. I think those starting in 2022, with that first episode that Caullen mentioned after this hiatus really being a little bit more intentional, we did it with Sophie. And I think it was super cool cause we had recorded with them in person which wassuper fun. And so there was that type of info. But that conversation, I think, was really really intentional as independent media creation. And the Age of Spin, that we like to kind of bring back every now and again.
[00:42:11] Caullen: I love In the Age of Spin. The idea of the Age of Spin and how with varied of topics that we've talked about on this podcast, that there's always this resurgence of panic, and/or polarization, and/or energy behind- whether that's independent media creation, behind #### hiphop albums come out at a certain time... topic or a subject or a social issue really polar and charged for whatever reason in the mainstream conscious, mainstream media, but also in other folks everyday lives. But it's always funny because the systems that we always talk about in this podcast are always at play and sometimes they're more invisible than other times. And so it's just been fun teasing that concept out, almost as a theoretical framework, across different themes as we've done this podcast. And as we've learned and grown as people in the world, but also as purveyors of politics and organizers in certain instances and learning more about strategy and stuff as far as how do we break down these systems in really real grounded ways, but also just learn as we're doing shit. And I think having that conversation when we did, episode 77, I think thinking about how media creation and consumption had changed so much in the years. In the beginning years of COVID it was wor- we needed to talk about it with somebody. So I think that that made a lot of sense. And had an episode with Pearl, which felt really good. And then kind of talking about a lot of different things..
[00:43:45] But apart from the series, having the recurring guest Stephanie Skora- mainly focusing on remapping, 2020 census, which Soapbox did a project on. And the B'nB episode on. Then we're seeing the remap from the 2020 census, and talking about that. And then just talking about borders in a really macro sense, and almost an anarchist sense as well too. There's a lot in that episode with her that stuck out to me at least; because it was important, but because it built on so many other things we had already dug into in years prior. And before we kinda move on to in-person episodes, and what that recording was like, and those themes and stuff... I'm just thinking about the non-series episodes- not really Whiskey and Watching, not as much We Are More, but are there any episodes virtually that kind of stuck out to y'all? As like, stuck out different in ways that episodes prior, years prior, we didn't gravitate towards?
[00:44:38] David: I'm very proud of us in the way in which, moving on with the 2021 episodes. 2022 episodes, I think we really brought in some really cool people. And I think that virtual is one of the only spaces where that could have made it a reality versus if we only had to constantly look for people in person. Kiera, love to hear from you, once you perfected the virtual recording
[00:45:04] Caullen: perfected!
[00:45:05] David: Were there any particular episodes that I guess kind of sat with you? Or once you kind of got it, you're like, all right, hey, I can actually pay attention to the conversation now? I don't know. Anything sat with you like that?
[00:45:15] Kiera: I would say with most of them, because I'm in the room, but not fully in the room; like, my laptop is somewhere, and I'm monitoring it. There are times where I'm like, I'm sitting doing homework and I'm like, wait a minute, what just happened? Especially...back with the Black farming episode... I'm pretty sure I was working on a paper, but every now and then came back in and was like, wait, what just happened? And.
[00:45:52] Caullen: Like audio-wise or conversation-wise?
[00:45:55] Kiera: Conversation-wise, where it's like-
[00:45:58] David: because we're virtual, I hear you, I hear you.
[00:46:00] Kiera: Conversation-wise, where it's like, Okay, wait a minute, I didn't think of it like that. And then it's like, okay. Okay, back to this paper though.
[00:46:08] Caullen: "And that's why we need to abolish the whites!" You're like, whoa, whoa. What, how, what? How did we get it here?
[00:46:14] Kiera: Yeah. It's more of a,
[00:46:15] Caullen: I'm kidding.
[00:46:16] Kiera: Yeah, it's more of a, okay, I'll listen back to that part when I'm editing it, because what just... What context am I missing right now? Or it's just one of those conversations where if I do catch it at the beginning and I'm like, okay, I'll stay here, hold on. Especially like in some of the cases where a person is breaking down that whole idea and I'm like, wait... I'm gonna use this later.
[00:46:43] Caullen: The nuggets girl. The nuggets to grab from some of the folks we talk to. I swear to God.
[00:46:49] Kiera: Yeah.
[00:46:50] David: Yo, that's wild. And also, I mean, I think that's also why we all kind of still lean towards in person. I do think...you mentioned like, we get distracted. I think that definitely happens. Not as much, but I think in person, we're able to truly see this sort of, you know, we're all thinking the same thing, we're all feeling the same thing in the same room. I don't know, I think to me that definitely makes things... only elevates it. Because once again, we're very grateful that we've perfected the virtual recordings. But I...leaning into those in-person, where we... the first few we were recording in this building that- we're not gonna give you all the tea, but it was like, Why are you here? Why are there so many people here? I don't understand. You know what I'm saying? And then they wanted to charge me and I said, listen, I'm barely paying other people, I can't pay you.
[00:47:41] Caullen: You got this grant money for us? You got it? I didn't think so.
[00:47:45] David: But you know, so, doing those in-person recordings, episode 82 that we mentioned, and episode 83. But then really, it kind of culminated- or at least to me, created the fullness of it. And the reason why I say this is, Whiskey and Watching- the second Whiskey and Watching, Passing- once again, featuring Sophie and Pearl- I think we had done the first one virtual. And it was really exciting, it was super cool, there was definitely a vibe, you know .... I'm pretty sure most of our B'nB folks are aware of Sophie, and are now learning more and more about Pearl. But you know, they're dope as fuck, and they're brilliant, and they're... they definitely come in with 10 toes.
[00:48:28] And so I think being able to have that in-person space, I think was so... truly wonderful. It was an opportunity that- Pearl was able to fly in from New York. We created this whole photo series as well around it because we needed to update our stuff. But also it's just the timing of it all and, Kiera was able to join us in all that. And so, I don't know... I'm painting the picture of the spectacular that it was recording that episode in comparison to that first one. And truly seeing how much more I feel can come out of things. Cause then the episode ends, or the recording ends, and we were able to go out, have something to eat, continue to have that relationship building which you can't have any other way. Incredibly grateful. But yeah, kind of thinking now about some of these in-person episodes outside of those...
[00:49:35] Caullen: yeah, I agree. It was definitely a fun moment. And I think to your point, it was one of the two in-person places where we recorded that year. Shout out Dustin. Shout out Gazala, it was their building spot. We're no longer there, so hopefully they don't get in trouble or anything. But it was interesting trying to find... arrange around busy people's availability. Just us three alone, but also a guest, and also a guest, and then a host essentially. And they were gracious as much as they could be, at least in the space that they had. And that was dope. It was the first time recording in person for... it had been years.
[00:50:12] And then moving forward and looking at the kind of more so the end of the year after we become more in community with Let Us Breathe Collective. Shout out the Breathing Room. Shout out Jennifer. And the AirGo gang. We filmed there for a project #### experiments, which hopefully you'll see in 2023. We just made an ask to record there, I think while we were recording that project. There's a portion of that film that AirGo is recording in what Damon claimed as the Malik Alim studio, shout out to Malik Alim, rest in power. And so we were like, yo, can we- is it possible for us to record there as well? We're looking for a space. We have the equipment, whatever, whatever... and were able to. And so that was really cool, and a cool... a space that not only provided the community and acoustics and stuff that we needed, at least on a base level, but also was like, I don't wanna say sacred space, but a special space. And a movement home in Chicago organizing and just Black liberation.
[00:51:16] And I mentioned in a previous episode, I've learned so much from... really just the Black radical tradition in Chicago. And Let Us Breathe Collective and the work they've been doing for years prior to me really getting into their work here is just really... basically I hold near and dear to my heart. And to be able to record there was super dope. And so the kind of tail end episodes of the end of the year, other than this episode obviously, has been cool to record there.
[00:51:43] But before we move too much more into that sphere, I do wanna touch on the Whiskey and Watching series. Just as a series in general, I think most series before have been tied to micro doc projects or feature projects like ChiDNA, or other other things where this was kind of a standalone series for Bourbon 'n BrownTown for the first time. And as you mentioned, the first inaugural episode, I think, we/I often... we bring up movies and stuff to make parables to different broader theoretical frameworks or real life examples that we talk about. So it's nice to pick a movie and just dive into all of our theory and critique of it- both from a filmmaker standpoint, from a cultural critic standpoint, and also from a movement or just a liberation standpoint too- in what folks filmmakers are trying to do, or not trying to do, and what they're accidentally doing in making some of these films that we talked about, and hopefully we'll continue to talk about. So that was a cool series that we started out of hiatus, out of a time of reflection, and out of having building in different ways that I thought was kind of cool.
[00:52:46] David: And then, for Caullen, what were some of your initial thoughts not having digested the literature, but having an opportunity to see the film, both as a filmmaker, but also as a creative? What were some of those feels for you as you engaged in that?
[00:53:03] Caullen: I like this question for everyone; cause I think the context in which you consume or digest media, literature, whatever, I think is important. Like for y'all, it was in academia or like beforehand. But you did it kind of as an assignment, or a straight up assignment in order to get a grade. But also I think we're all kind of nerds to a certain extent, we enjoy being accountable for knowledge- and so that's a different type of way to come into it. Naturally you'll be finding yourself as well a little bit at the time. And for me, I didn't know about- I know Tessa Thompson's work and I think she's a fantastic actress- but I didn't know about the film. Didn't know about the book, especially until we talked about it a couple weeks ago.
[00:53:42] David: Yep, yep, yep, yep.
[00:53:43] Caullen: Like, oh shit, I gotta watched the movie. I'm like, it looks solid. And obviously I know what "passing" is short for, and what that has been for the Black community and even beyond that and globally, especially with melanated folks. But I didn't even know what the book story was about, really until a quick synopsis and watched it this morning, most of it with Pearl on the couch. So unlike y'all, almost no expectations other than y'all thought it was great. So I figured it'd be good.
[00:54:12] David: Yeah. And on that, definitely want to give a little shout out to Aidan who was our photographer. If you've seen anything on B'nB on the socials or on the site, having all of our lovely faces, making it look good. It's also super exciting because I think sometimes we get so caught up in the creation of these things that I love having these moments to be able to reflect and truly see how we've grown. And see how things have established themselves with or without our input.
[00:54:41] I think the Whiskey and Watching series to your point, Caullen, to me it was definitely an opportunity for us to...wanting to bring in more people. And I thought about what if those people are consistent. So like, they in their own right are a host of this series with us.
[00:54:57] Caullen: Do you wanna stay consistent? Since that probably likely is not gonna be the case. Likely will not be the case.
[00:55:04] David: No, no, no. I mean, I guess at that time it was consistent. So, you're right.
[00:55:07] Caullen: I just, I didn't want that to be burned in.
[00:55:09] David: No, I hear you. I hear you.
[00:55:10] Caullen: Into the record books.
[00:55:11] David: Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know...
[00:55:16] Caullen: sorry, I loved everything else you said.
[00:55:18] David: No, you're good. no, no, no. I think it's important because I did want to... not that I'm gonna say...
[00:55:24] Caullen: honor it for what it was.
[00:55:25] David: Yeah. It's not that we're not gonna do Whiskey and Watching, cause we probably can. But I think I'm trying to bring it into... I think...whiskey- I just wanna give a shout out to Aidan who was our photographer for the Whiskey and Watching in-person hurrah. Making it look good. So shout out to him. But I think in that, Whiskey and Watching, to me, definitely was that opportunity for us to bring in folks, or bring in minds that- in the same way that you and I can admire a film, such as Passing- which is the one that we did in person, if y'all haven't checked that out definitely peep it-- but there's a level of admiration and respect to it as a filmmaker, as a producer, et cetera, et cetera. But I think also having other lenses that in this last year, Sophie and Pearl were able to bring to the table, and I named it kind of making BrownTown more of a town. It's always been like that cause our community's always there, but I think with Whiskey and Watching, it was definitely an opportunity for us to be as B'nB as creators, as producers; be intentional, and giving space to ideas and growth. But I also think it is still a way for us to continue to challenge ourselves and like, well, what is it that we still want to talk about?
[00:56:46] We can talk about movies, but what exactly? What movies do we want to really talk about? Oh, we know we want to bring in these folks; like, oh, are they truly the ones that are gonna help elevate this and bring that conversation? So I think that intentionality behind something like Whiskey and Watching- even though it's not as serious, one can say as like the IPP project- it still has and carries weight that I can definitely appreciate. And we hope all of our listeners do too.
[00:57:12] Caullen: To interject- not as related- are y'all sipping? Y'all sipping something? What's going on over there? We're in virtual space now, so I can't- I don't really know if y'all are drinking or not.
[00:57:23] David: Well, we are. We're sticking to hard seltzers though, cause you know, we had a hangover this morning.
[00:57:29] Caullen: Interesting. Okay.
[00:57:30] David: What about you, Kiera? You're overage now.
[00:57:34] Kiera: *laughing*
[00:57:35] David: I know, I'm aging you out.
[00:57:38] Kiera: Sadly no. Just water cause I had enough alcohol last night, and I have to build up again for New Year's.
[00:57:47] Caullen: Only if you want to. I do wanna... I wanna name two things. 1) New folks to Bourbon 'n BrownTown, we are actively- other than maybe one episode, maybe- we're actively at least sipping on something while we're recording. It's not Drink Champs who are like, getting intoxicated throughout the end of it and it's like two hours long. But 2) and I've been reading and thinking about this a lot more too, it's like, I think that the pressure of our culture for folks to drink like, oh, I'm not drinking tonight. People are like, why??! What are you doing?? We're definitely not those folks. But I feel like, for having an alcoholic beverage in the name of the podcast, which is named like... guests come on here, they don't have to drink obviously. Sometimes folks don't, sometimes folks do, sometimes folks have tea, whatever.
[00:58:27] But we like to just indulge a little bit and taste a little something something. And it makes it kind of more fun. But also, people can do whatever they want and partake in beverages however they would like to, and we honor that and appreciate that. So I wanna name that for you to be like, they make their guests get drunk, that's messed up. We don't do that. That's untrue.
[00:58:49] David: That's messed up.
[00:58:49] Caullen: But I do think, like when we first started this podcast, we- not like we would name what we were drinking every time, but we oftentimes at least kind of mention it. So I want folks to know, if I'm not making sense it's not because I'm not brilliant, it's because the Knob Creek is getting to me. That's the only reason why.
[00:59:10] But I think we touched on most episodes. Throughout this conversation I really appreciate, especially your insight Kiera, of not talking to you about this stuff as much throughout the year. But the last three episodes: Politics of Dress with Hannah Linsky, W.O.R.K in the Age of Spin with just David and I, last one 87 Democratizing Philosophy Through Identity, Environment, & Ethical Food Pathways with Shanti Chu- shout out. And shout out to Jamie for linking us up with Shanti. I'm curious if y'all had any breakout thoughts with either the conversation itself or just how those conversations came to be with the world we're in right now? I think I mentioned those a little bit here and there, but I'm curious about y'all. And Kiera with the work; but I'm curious about y'all, if any of those three episodes which were recorded in person at Let Us Breathe at the Malik Alim Studios stuck out to y'all in any kind of way, shape, or form?
[01:00:00] David: I think to me, I was really excited with Hannah's episode. I think something that was named is like, to me, she was definitely one of our first fans. Or at least first- maybe not fans, it might be too strong of a word, but was one of our frequent listeners. And so I think it was very wonderful to see that full circle. And here was someone who supported Bourbon 'n BrownTown in its early years and watched it grow. And then here it was, we were able to bring them in on something that they're very very knowledgeable about and they really really care about it. And so it was really exciting to see that, and have a stronger understanding and respect for someone's passions. And I think that also works for Shanti as well. I think they're a little bit different because we've never met Shanti. But I think both of them, in their respective episodes, you can truly feel and see that they're very passionate and they know what they're talking about.
[01:00:57] And so with that Political of Dress, I think it was super cool being able to... be more thoughtful in how I have been? Giving us grace for emo David, or whatever. But then also gassing us up and giving us the...what's the word I'm looking for? The pat on the back, so to speak, of how we've developed, and how we take agency in not only how we look, but what we wear and how we do so. I think that was just super cool to end. And then with the Shanti Chu episode, I feel a lot of our episodes, in a way, shape, or form has some type of philosophizing in it. But I think it was very, it was exciting for me on one end, and I name it in the episode- having been someone, going into undergrad... as a new space for me, I was like, oh, I just want to consume all this information. So here was someone who also does that, and they're teachers, et cetera. So it was super fun to be challenged by that in new ways.
[01:02:05] And not to say that... we bring in folks to change our minds, so to speak. But I do think a conversation like that, as an example, when we're talking about foods and how they relate to cultures, and then how that can differ from one another, I think it's always wonderful to see and establish grace, understanding and transparency for each other's ideologies. And I think that's something that definitely comes across in episode 87 via multiple things. But yeah.
[01:02:37] The last thing I wanna name definitely is- also love to give a shout out to the Let Us Breathe Collective and Jennifer. It's been super exciting and I think we're only excited to...as that and other groups that we've been naming, just continuing to manifest for one another, I think is important. And so we're definitely grateful for the space. And if we had an opportunity to record there again, we'll definitely take it. Super exciting. But it's just to me, I'm even more gased up now to go into 2023. I have series I wanna do. Maybe like a Seguimos Aquí series. Just brainstorming. But et cetera, et cetera. But Kiera, tossing it to you, at least to speak to any of these last episodes. Were there any of them that jumped out to you? Or any of the conversations tha- now that you're in the space with us that you still sit with?
[01:03:28] Kiera: I'd say the one about fashion. Especially having just got out of college; and the club I was the treasurer of was called Body Haven, so it discussed a lot of fat liberation and body positivity. And within the fashion realm, you're not, to most, you're not allowed to be both fat and happy. And within that, I guess you're not allowed to also be able to dress yourself. So being able to be fashionable and plus-size is unheard of for some reason. And I do remember a lot of that conversation being at the people who over consume fast fashion. And there was a lot of discussion of that within my last semester- yeah, last semester. But I always had to intervene. And I'm like, you can't force everyone to shop sustainably if you aren't giving options to people who are plus-size, as well as pricing has to be somewhat similar to even make it somewhat fair.
[01:04:41] I used to work at Old Navy, and I chose that one specifically because it still had a plus-size section in theirs. Which made zero sense that a month later we get an alert that they're taking out all sizes that are 3X and above, and pants and dress sizes 24 and above. And they have an entire campaign being able to dress any body. And that's part of your training, is that you can discuss this campaign that Old Navy runs, but you still can't shop there... if you're above those sizes; making that whole training not even worth it, and it doesn't even make sense. And the fact that- and there are so many people who can't shop in stores. And having to be extremely reliant on fast fashion in general is like, then what's the point of making these inclusive- or "inclusive" fashion lines if you're not going to make them reasonably priced and also put them in the store. Because people wanna try things on. I'm not going to order a bunch of things, and then have to send them all back for a new size because your sizing is so off. And then like, women's sizing is so stupid anyway.
[01:06:14] Caullen: It's so wild.
[01:06:19] Kiera: It's so stupid anyway, because you can be one size in the same store and pick up a different item and it's a completely different size. And that's... also, we had to explain that in Old Navy with a lot of their jeans you could be this size in the skinny jeans, but you're not gonna be that size in their OG straight or their mom jean. It's not gonna happen, just because some have stretch, some don't. And then some are made with a completely different material. And I'm like, then what's the point? What's the point of the sizing if you're not going to follow it all the way through? Because I even joked about it, I was like, I'm gonna go find my men's sizes and go upstairs because all of those are gonna be the same. They're going to be pretty much the same. And so much easier.
[01:07:17] So within Body Haven, I even brought that to them, even though I still talk to them, even though they're still running that club while I graduated. That was what the club was built on, and trying to find community within that, especially on campus. That's why a lot of people gravitated towards it, because even upperclassmen were like, why didn't we have this before? Why is this the first time that we're having a club like this? Especially with Columbia being so "diversity and inclusion", and "community" and you still don't even have like.... here's another identity. And though they do encourage students to continue building their own community, making clubs and doing that, it's like, why does it take so long? We had a size inclusive fashion show right at the end. And it was the biggest hit. We ran outta tickets. We had to figure out how to get people in.
[01:08:22] Caullen: Dooooope!
[01:08:24] Kiera: We ran outta tickets. We had a lot of designers that wanted to design for this fashion show... and it was a success. They're doing it again this year. I already threatened them, said if they don't invite me we're gonna have a problem.
[01:08:42] David: Heard it here first folks. You heard it here first.
[01:08:45] Kiera: Look, there's gonna be problems. But people were so excited to even sign up to either help or be in it, just from this year alone, that they already had their modeling call and it filled up within two weeks. When it took us a month and a half to fill it for the first year we did it. And that whole sense of community and being able to 1) the biggest thing, discuss fashion where bigger bodies seem to not be welcome. It was a conversation that always needed to be had, but a lot of the time, a lot of people are not ready or they're not going to hear it.
[01:09:30] David: Yeah, I hear that. Well...that warms me that, at least, that Hannah's episode.. And clearly it means that there's more that needs to be talked about in that conversation. It's something so, so layered. But I'm glad that that's something that- and I mean, to me, I definitely always find fashion was something I like and something I'm doing; and it's also, it matters in a way and helps me think of things differently. I think that's always a plus when it's work that we're doing. Because you're in the room regardless of who we're recording with. But I think it's always even that much more rewarding when the conversations or the people who we bring in give us a little more than what we were expecting. So that's so cool. Well, appreciate that. Appreciate that.
[01:10:13] And so I think that we've kind of been reflecting here on all of our episodes. And so for all of our listeners, if you definitely have any feels, or thoughts, or any takeaways specifically from 2022, we'd love to hear them. We hope you're all already following our Instagram or us on socials. But definitely feel free to share that. It's always really wonderful for us as well to hear feedback from folks. And so I think, not to sit there too long, but I'm curious if- has there been any particular type of feedback or things that you've heard from folks who listen to B'nB that you feel are worth noting? Or we can move on as well.
[01:10:50] Caullen: Yeah, I just wanna comment on what Kiera shared. I mean, 1) thank you for sharing all that, and 2) my heart is warm from hearing the experience, and the passion, and the knowledge, and the frustration- to an extent- about what you just named. And in hearing that in Hannah's episode, which we, you know, talked about a little, quite a bit, but not like there wasn't a whole episode on it, but just hearing enough in that episode and really feeling like, yeah, I feel this and I understand this on this very personal level.
[01:11:27] And then hearing the parallels between a school- and this is not even to call out Columbia College Chicago, or any American school really, that may do good things for marginalized groups or may not, but you know, we tend to get the marketing line of diversity and all the things, and how far that actually plays out in actuality within institutions is scrutinized. But hearing this institution you're part of and paying money into, and are getting good stuff from, but also are experiencing this from; you have to still build out this thing on your own in order to not only see yourself, but also gain community with and just fight back about these things that are normalized which shouldn't be and are actually really harmful.
[01:12:12] That's how, unfortunately, that's how our country and world are. And I say country cause like, "land the free home of the brave", we hear all these things about the meritocracy and all these things about, "you can be whatever you can be in America" and all, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But we know as folks who do this work as media work, as well as movement work, we always have to find those solutions and find those- find that community, and find those strategies and create those systems on our own in order to fight these things. And also create care and vulnerability and representation in a true radical way, not like in a corporatized way in order to find and sustain joy. I think that's my biggest thing as far as this year, as fas as sustainability and sustaining these things. And making our own structures that we can sustain lots of this. And so just that parable between college in the broader world, the broader country, the broader globe and doing these things ourselves. Maybe I'm reaching too far, but seeing the state as not only useless on a base level, but also reenacting the harms in a lot of ways. So it's just... it's interesting and cool to hear that from you. And having experiences that I have not had, and making it more robust in a way.
[01:13:28] So my second point too with that is that, I think... as David has mentioned on previous episodes, I think I may mentioned too, is like, when we work on Bourbon 'n BrownTown or Soapbox projects or other things we're passionate in that we like and enjoy, sometimes it's still like, oh fuck, this is still a job. I'm like, I'm tired, I'm stressed, and like, I don't wanna do this right now. But at least for me, I'm just projecting at this point, just knowing what I'm working on or how I hope makes impact or I hope. Or I know how it makes me feel and hopefully that translates to someone out in the world. Sometimes that push, that drive to do the more nitty gritty or boring or just, things that are exciting but I'm just really tired I don't wanna do them, push me to do those things because it's exciting and I like doing it. And so I know David has had that experience; I know I have. And so it's very lovely to hear that, at least in this one episode, you've also kind of had that; as far as like, this conversation's important to get out in the world, I'm gonna edit this, and clean this up and whatever, and then get it out cause it's important and it's something I care about. So it's nice to hear that all three of us have shared that.
[01:14:38] David: And so on that note though, we're definitely- I think as we're coming to the conclusion of our episode here, I'm curious to hear, are there... Kiera and we'll start with you. Is there anything you're looking forward to in 2023? B'nB-wise? But maybe also just general wise? Maybe part of your audio career?
[01:14:57] Kiera: Definitely more episodes with B'nB. But as well as, where is this one degree gonna take me? Especially..., as stated, I'm always busy. Because I was unavailable for an entire month because I was doing sound for a play. And I have somehow accidentally gotten into doing sound for theater, and have been enjoying it. But at the same time, I also have passions within the music industry, which is why I'm getting my master's in music business. And figuring out where I'd end up; I have no problem doing both. Been interviewing in the audio realm, figuring out how that's gonna work. Especially with the whole, as mentioned before, missing courses, and COVID sucks; but been figuring out how to move on from the effects of that, just to be able to do as best as possible in my field and soon to be career.
[01:16:23] David: Those are good goals. That's a good move. But what about you, Caullen? Any B'nB goals or any general goals for you as we once again we sit here and reflect on 2022 moving forward?
[01:16:34] Caullen: Yeah, I think B'nB goals: I'd like to do at least one more series next year. Preferably that's tied to a micro doc series that's also tied to some- not necessarily campaign, but some movement, something that's very grounded in organizing, or changing folks' material conditions in some way. That'd be awesome. I think more, honestly, more episodes with just you and I. Like I mentioned before, it's kind of how we started; and I feel like I do appreciate those episodes cause we're- I think we're more intentional. Because just you and I, we really gotta dig into a topic versus kind of lean on a guest to bring in their expertise or experience. And generally speaking, not working as much. Across the board. Not working as much, but still get paid the same or more and/or do more collectively. Like, I think during the, over the years, especially as I/we have built Soapbox, it's been like, look, I want Soapbox to do the most. Because I don't have to be involved, I just want Soapbox do the most. If I am, cool; if not, also cool, I just wanna do less but have a bigger impact, in short. What about you?
[01:17:47] David: Yeah, I mean, I think with B'nB I'm really excited that we're gonna be able to record more often than not in person. And so, and in that, I think a goal for me would be to continue, but also elevate. And so I mentioned the Seguimos Aquí series- and it's like, we've never...we've done ChiDNA episodes, we've done No Cop. So we've done the stuff in ways that have been useful, and fruitful, and just exciting to create in here. But I think... thinking back, continuing to put on our producer's hat on. And being like, well, what... why does this differ? How does this differ? How can this do something it hasn't done before? Because it's a podcast episode, right? And multiple motherfuckers are recording themselves on microphones nowadays. So to me, it's constantly sitting with, how do we differ? And that difference doesn't necessarily mean we have to be better or worse; but the really being able to have that singular thing that separates Bourbon 'n BrownTown from the rest of us.
[01:18:55] And so, I've been very excited to continue to grow and, once again, manifest that. And so I think a goal for 2023 just to continue to do that. Whether that's through a series like a Seguimos Aquí series, or elevating Whiskey and Watching to incorporate different types of visuals and/or co-hosts as well. But I think all of that kind of sits and revolves around us having an opportunity to record more in person. So that definitely sits in one of our goals.
[01:19:25] And then for the general, we're just incredibly grateful that Bourbon 'n BrownTown is able to work so closely with Soapbox. Because that may not have had been the case, right? Bourbon 'n BrownTown, it could have been its own entire thing. So I think it continuing to blend into what Soapbox is all about, I think is where we just want to continue to have things manifest.
[01:19:49] And so to me, the general one is kind of getting to know more of you, our listener. I think often times we're so busy trying to make all the shit. And I do think we take time sometimes, intentional, more intentional than not, to talk to our peers, to talk to our colleagues, to hear from our community to get feedback from our collaborators. But I think for 2023, a general goal will definitely be like, I want to know more from you, our listeners. I wanna see what is it that you fuck with? What is that you don't fuck with? Are there ideas in which that we haven't even thought about in elevating, in partnerships and collaborations? That's really where it's at. We're seven degrees away from everybody, so you know somebody that we need to know.
[01:20:30] Caullen: Seven degrees? We're closer than seven degrees.
[01:20:33] David: Isn't it seven degrees from everybody? I thought it was seven points.
[01:20:36] Caullen: The phrase is six degrees of separation. Is that what you're talking about there?
[01:20:39] David: There you go. Yeah.
[01:20:40] Caullen: But we're like, three degrees to everybody. Three degrees. Fuck that seven shit.
[01:20:42] David: And I'm not tired of Caullen checking me on every episode. *laughing* No no, no. But I think that- thank you for the people who are gonna be like, no, David's wrong. No, you're right, we're six degrees away, or whatever. But to me, it's that. And I'm excited, once again, to just continue to know more about y'all; as y'all have learned a lot about us. And continuing to think about it, Caullen, we've been doing this for years now. Literally.
[01:21:07] Kiera you're only cementing yourself more and more into this role as well until...I feel it gets to a point where like, okay, we know it. How do we continue to push it forward? And I've been very excited to continue to do that with y'all. In the craziness that was the virtual screening and personal, I think we didn't sit about it enough, but I think there's logistical shit sometimes... it's been fucking crazy. And also with juggling everything else. And so we're hopeful that y'all enjoyed everything y'all heard from us this year and in the past. And hopefully y'all continue to keep with us on this journey. Keep keeping on for Bourbon 'n BrownTown 2023.
[01:21:48] Caullen: And a great way to get in tune and get updates before anybody else; and holler at us and get our attention before anybody else, is to be a patron on Patreon. Patreon.com/bourbonnbrowntown. We have a $2 tier a month. Just, you know, slide that $2 tier right quick. Get them insights. Say what's good. David mentioned earlier too, the socials, all social media, most social media: "BourbonnBrownTown". No "o"s in "BrownTown" on Twitter. You can even email us if you're kind of old school. You're like, fuck, I'm gonna email y'all directly: hello@Soapboxpo.com. Be like, Hey, that episode sucked, I would've done this differently. I may not read it. I might disregard it, but we'll get it. We'll take it in.
[01:22:31] David: We'll hear you.
[01:22:32] Caullen: Let us know. I like that, David, as far as hearing more from listeners, I think folks that are close to us, and some homies will like, we don't listen to often, but we'll talk to here and there after episodes are released. But I love them. They're the same ones. And hopefully- by the numbers, I know we're growing. Not exponentially, but we are. So it's like, who are these extra five people in Australia? I don't know y'all. Say something to me. Holler at me, @caullenfit on Instagram. What's good?
[01:22:58] David: That and all info will be on the episode notes, as always. But Kiera, any last words for the people?
[01:23:05] Kiera: I have nothing else.
[01:23:08] David: Well with that, we really do appreciate you being on here with us. Definitely grateful for all of your work that you have here supporting us, and in making B'nB the best it can be. So definitely shout out to you. And you too, Caullen. I love your ass. It's been fun making this shit with you over the years. And so, grateful that you want more conversations between me and you. Not that I don't want more conversations with me and you.
[01:23:29] Caullen: Fuck everybody else. Naw, I'm just playing. I'm just playing.
[01:23:31] David: No, not that I don't, but I think- I definitely- as we continue to reflect, we're just... there's a level of gratitude that we also have and we carry cause we're able to do this work. And that's super dope. And so we're glad you fuck with us. And as always, stay Black, stay brown, stay queer.
[01:23:48] Caullen: Stay tuned, stay turnt.
[01:23:50] David: We'll see you in 2023.
OUTRO
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